Scottish - Why is it...
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mad jock,
been there, done that, got the Tee-shirt!
Very Best Wishes, and regards to all in the 'homeland'
.
P.S. Things could be worse, you could be in a disused brick-pit, daahn-saahff
.
been there, done that, got the Tee-shirt!
Very Best Wishes, and regards to all in the 'homeland'
.P.S. Things could be worse, you could be in a disused brick-pit, daahn-saahff
.
Last edited by ZOOKER; 26th Sep 2009 at 22:17.
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Anyone got a hankie ? I'm upset to not be getting another Xmas card.
As Rolaand says, the original post was a clear dig at Scottish, implying strongly that we did things totally different to anywhere else and uniquely detrimentally to pilots. We clearly don't. The original post also had gross exaggerations and vague statements which those without knowledge might take as read. It also included at least one complaint aimed at Scottish on a procedure which we aren't even involved in !!
So let's try again, although we will need some factual information from the poster so that we can answer his precise complaints and not those which are untrue or heard in the pub from a mate.
1. Traffic inbound to the TMA airfields needs to be at 7000' equivalent at the holding fixes. They are 62 or 71 track miles from MARGO (TARTN & LANAK). Let's just assume a standard day where the QNH is 1013 and there is no wind. Let's also assume a rule of thumb descent rate of 1000' every 3 miles. The profile level for Glasgow arrivals at MARGO would be FL306 and for Edinburgh arrivals would be FL276 . Therefore FL260 is not perfect but an acceptable compromise which provides extra capacity in the airspace involved, for traffic overflying the UK or coming to or from oceanic airspace.
So for an Edinburgh arrival to make FL260 at MARGO, you're going to have start descent around 5 miles before you wanted and for a Glasgow arrival around 15 miles earlier. Not quite the 100 miles stated in the original post, which would have you descending as you passed TNT VOR to the Southeast of Manchester.
Or maybe you got the number wrong and didn't mean to give the impression that we would descend you 100 miles before you need to in reality.
As confirmed by others, whoever you 'heard' the stuff about Newcastle and Durham Tees from was talking nonsense. There are NO such restrictions 'because of Scottish'. Give us the name and we'll send the boys round to deal with your informant, or maybe just sue him for libel.
2 & 3 - Nothing to do with Scottish.
4. I'll ask again. Departing from where and at what planned level ? Give us that information and we can tell you the options available to you. We'll also be able to point out what you can or can't do and why, using the AIP as a reference. Otherwise it's only well intentioned guesswork on our part and may not even be relevant to your flight.
5. Direct routes are common over the North Sea. Controllers and pilots alike on this thread have confirmed that.
Pilots are always welcome at Scottish. We can show you EXACTLY why things happen the way they do and also show you that there is a bigger picture than that in an individual cockpit. The contact numbers are in the AIP.
As Rolaand says, the original post was a clear dig at Scottish, implying strongly that we did things totally different to anywhere else and uniquely detrimentally to pilots. We clearly don't. The original post also had gross exaggerations and vague statements which those without knowledge might take as read. It also included at least one complaint aimed at Scottish on a procedure which we aren't even involved in !!
So let's try again, although we will need some factual information from the poster so that we can answer his precise complaints and not those which are untrue or heard in the pub from a mate.
1. Traffic inbound to the TMA airfields needs to be at 7000' equivalent at the holding fixes. They are 62 or 71 track miles from MARGO (TARTN & LANAK). Let's just assume a standard day where the QNH is 1013 and there is no wind. Let's also assume a rule of thumb descent rate of 1000' every 3 miles. The profile level for Glasgow arrivals at MARGO would be FL306 and for Edinburgh arrivals would be FL276 . Therefore FL260 is not perfect but an acceptable compromise which provides extra capacity in the airspace involved, for traffic overflying the UK or coming to or from oceanic airspace.
So for an Edinburgh arrival to make FL260 at MARGO, you're going to have start descent around 5 miles before you wanted and for a Glasgow arrival around 15 miles earlier. Not quite the 100 miles stated in the original post, which would have you descending as you passed TNT VOR to the Southeast of Manchester.
Or maybe you got the number wrong and didn't mean to give the impression that we would descend you 100 miles before you need to in reality.As confirmed by others, whoever you 'heard' the stuff about Newcastle and Durham Tees from was talking nonsense. There are NO such restrictions 'because of Scottish'. Give us the name and we'll send the boys round to deal with your informant, or maybe just sue him for libel.
2 & 3 - Nothing to do with Scottish.
4. I'll ask again. Departing from where and at what planned level ? Give us that information and we can tell you the options available to you. We'll also be able to point out what you can or can't do and why, using the AIP as a reference. Otherwise it's only well intentioned guesswork on our part and may not even be relevant to your flight.
5. Direct routes are common over the North Sea. Controllers and pilots alike on this thread have confirmed that.
Pilots are always welcome at Scottish. We can show you EXACTLY why things happen the way they do and also show you that there is a bigger picture than that in an individual cockpit. The contact numbers are in the AIP.
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Since the question was about outside controlled airspace, it should be obvious that in Europe that is below FL195. Therefore I think we can discount the issues about directs above FL195.
Get your head round that one and the legalities .... if you can !!
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Here we go again.
Pray DFC how do you manage to even start doing your pref work without getting the ATIS.
Runway in use I will give you that one.
Wind what do you use the sock.
Temp, the ramp rat looks cold.
Pray DFC how do you manage to even start doing your pref work without getting the ATIS.
Runway in use I will give you that one.
Wind what do you use the sock.
Temp, the ramp rat looks cold.
More than just an ATCO
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Don't worry It'll all change after independance when the SCAA has been created
FWIW I always found Scottish easier to work with than London for direct routings etc. Also there have been level restrictions for inbound EGKK of FL260 20nm before REFSO for as long as I can remember bringing that traffic below inbounds EGLL although that is closer
Tarnish was your mum frightened by a train when she was pregnant with you?
PS 10West as compensation I'll put you on my Christmas Card list. Would you mind sharing with the Creeganator?
FWIW I always found Scottish easier to work with than London for direct routings etc. Also there have been level restrictions for inbound EGKK of FL260 20nm before REFSO for as long as I can remember bringing that traffic below inbounds EGLL although that is closer
Tarnish was your mum frightened by a train when she was pregnant with you?
PS 10West as compensation I'll put you on my Christmas Card list. Would you mind sharing with the Creeganator?
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Lon More
No but I am led to believe I was conceived in the guards van of the 2142 Euston to Birmingham express....hence it was a rushed job and probably didnt get all the bits sorted in the right place!! 
Tarnish was your mum frightened by a train when she was pregnant with you?
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I'll try not to upset too many people this time. I don't want to create more of a "them and us" than I have done. So...
1. 100nm was a bit of an exageration. I'd prefer, when given the choice to do an idle descent or even a 3 track miles per 1,000 would do me nicely. So I'd prefer not to be FL260 at NATEB. There has to be a reason for this (to justify the extra 50-100 kgs that this normally costs). When inbound to NCL and MME I've asked why I have to descend early and I have been told "It's because of Scottish".
2. All Scottish ATIS's appear to have on their last line "Threshold elevation nn feet".
3. The last time I was in Glasgow it was patently dry (not even damp) yet the ATIS was reporting WET WET WET. No, I was told, it was wet. So there is a difference between my WET and ATC's wet. It's not a big deal, I ignored the WET bit but I shouldn't have to do this in the UK.
4. OK, I'm in EDI and it's Sunday and pretty horrible, VFR impossible, Danger Areas cold and our Military friends are in the bar or at home. The Power Rangers in Lakenheath are back in their boxes or saving the World elsewhere. So the North Sea is pretty empty of traffic. And, although filed airways I ask if it is possible to go direct to say OTR. Quick as a flash we are told that only a Basic Service will be offered, which I can not accept. So we go the long way. But is there a policy to deny anything other than a Basic Service?
5. Nuff said.
PM
...and Tarnish, I'd love to meet you personally.
1. 100nm was a bit of an exageration. I'd prefer, when given the choice to do an idle descent or even a 3 track miles per 1,000 would do me nicely. So I'd prefer not to be FL260 at NATEB. There has to be a reason for this (to justify the extra 50-100 kgs that this normally costs). When inbound to NCL and MME I've asked why I have to descend early and I have been told "It's because of Scottish".
2. All Scottish ATIS's appear to have on their last line "Threshold elevation nn feet".
3. The last time I was in Glasgow it was patently dry (not even damp) yet the ATIS was reporting WET WET WET. No, I was told, it was wet. So there is a difference between my WET and ATC's wet. It's not a big deal, I ignored the WET bit but I shouldn't have to do this in the UK.
4. OK, I'm in EDI and it's Sunday and pretty horrible, VFR impossible, Danger Areas cold and our Military friends are in the bar or at home. The Power Rangers in Lakenheath are back in their boxes or saving the World elsewhere. So the North Sea is pretty empty of traffic. And, although filed airways I ask if it is possible to go direct to say OTR. Quick as a flash we are told that only a Basic Service will be offered, which I can not accept. So we go the long way. But is there a policy to deny anything other than a Basic Service?
5. Nuff said.
PM
...and Tarnish, I'd love to meet you personally.
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Piltdown Man.....
Yes that would be great, always glad to meet a model rail enthusiast... OK you can PM me then you welcome to come fly in my office and see why I have no problems with Scottish...maybe then I can fly in yours and I can see what your problem is!
...and Tarnish, I'd love to meet you personally.
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3. The last time I was in Glasgow it was patently dry (not even damp) yet the ATIS was reporting WET WET WET. No, I was told, it was wet. So there is a difference between my WET and ATC's wet. It's not a big deal, I ignored the WET bit but I shouldn't have to do this in the UK.
Unofficial Observations
Pilots of aircraft may report, or observations from the control tower may indicate, that the amount of water present or runway surface condition is different from that being reported. Under no circumstances are controllers to pass to pilots information that suggests that the runway surface condition is better than the official report. However, when a pilot’s report or an observation from the control tower indicates a worse runway surface condition this information is to be passed and identified as such (see Appendix E).
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Piltdown Man-Do please come in to the centre for a visit,we don't see that many pilots in the ops room. Those that do come in leave with an appreciation of why there are level restrictions all over the place, even if they are still not happy about being forced down early.
Your posts seem to be very me,me,me. I want this and I want that. Fair enough but it's not all about you. The ATC system in the whole of Europe is set up to provide the maximum capacity possible because that's what the airlines want, it's for the greater good of every operator. This means that you will have to descend earlier than you want a lot of the time,however so does everyone else.
If the airlines approached the ATC service providers en masse and demanded that their aircraft be allowed to fly CDA's from top of descent to touchdown in the name of fuel economy then we as the service providers would probably have to oblige. There would however be a HUGE cut in capacity to accomodate this.
That said,we controllers appreciate that fuel costs a fortune for the airlines at the mo and we do cancel level restrictions wherever possible. Try chatting to the cargo folks who fly up and down the country at night,they get directs and no level restrictions from about midnight til five in the morning
Your posts seem to be very me,me,me. I want this and I want that. Fair enough but it's not all about you. The ATC system in the whole of Europe is set up to provide the maximum capacity possible because that's what the airlines want, it's for the greater good of every operator. This means that you will have to descend earlier than you want a lot of the time,however so does everyone else.
If the airlines approached the ATC service providers en masse and demanded that their aircraft be allowed to fly CDA's from top of descent to touchdown in the name of fuel economy then we as the service providers would probably have to oblige. There would however be a HUGE cut in capacity to accomodate this.
That said,we controllers appreciate that fuel costs a fortune for the airlines at the mo and we do cancel level restrictions wherever possible. Try chatting to the cargo folks who fly up and down the country at night,they get directs and no level restrictions from about midnight til five in the morning
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The service provided by ATC is one I use every working day. In general I'm very pleased with the service provided and generally we can work out why things are done in a certain way. From a users point of view it is clear that there are major differences in the way capacity is managed around Europe (like the Italian "Cleared to land, number five", the Norwegian 300nm direct or the constant headings from London). But none of the tactics, methods and procedures for maximising airspace usage are really mentioned in the AIP's. Instead, they mention rather a large number of restrictions, not-possibles or prohibiteds. So I thought I'd ask after 20 years of wondering. We don't have the BIG picture and only a single pair of ears we so don't get to know about the traffic (which also means you are doing your job) which justifies your policies. This is why my questions appear to be very selfish, sorry.
Thanks for answers so far - but do I want really to enter the lion's den?
PM
Thanks for answers so far - but do I want really to enter the lion's den?
PM
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Piltdown Man the tone of your posts imply that a flight planned routing through controlled airspace is merely a planning technicality and once airborne direct routings outside controlled airspace should be offered by ATC as if by default?
I don't understand why you would assume ATC will automatically send you off-airway? Have you any company SOP regarding the dismissal of radar control in favour of a reduced service to make shortcuts? The policies of more and more passenger carrying operators not least the experience of pilots familiar with the burden of safety responsibility these days promote sticking to the assigned route. To explain a TCAS Resolution Advisory in Class G airspace to your manager when you left the airway merely to make a shortcut would not fall on sympathetic ears. Much as I know a shortcut through no-man's-land would save two or three minutes or 100kg of fuel I won't do it unless for reasons of safety.
Personally, and I don't have many understanding First Officers over this, I don't ask for direct routings from ATC but rather wait until I am offered. There is something about asking for "directs" that I have never been comfortable with; it feels to me as if I am trying to tell the controller his job. Unprofessional in my opinion. Feel free to argue to the contrary though; I may change my opinion if someone can offer printed guidance which has until now escaped me.
I don't understand why you would assume ATC will automatically send you off-airway? Have you any company SOP regarding the dismissal of radar control in favour of a reduced service to make shortcuts? The policies of more and more passenger carrying operators not least the experience of pilots familiar with the burden of safety responsibility these days promote sticking to the assigned route. To explain a TCAS Resolution Advisory in Class G airspace to your manager when you left the airway merely to make a shortcut would not fall on sympathetic ears. Much as I know a shortcut through no-man's-land would save two or three minutes or 100kg of fuel I won't do it unless for reasons of safety.
Personally, and I don't have many understanding First Officers over this, I don't ask for direct routings from ATC but rather wait until I am offered. There is something about asking for "directs" that I have never been comfortable with; it feels to me as if I am trying to tell the controller his job. Unprofessional in my opinion. Feel free to argue to the contrary though; I may change my opinion if someone can offer printed guidance which has until now escaped me.
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Piltdown Man,
It would be useful to know who you fly for.
I was reading just today a letter from a chief pilot of a certain ''Blue Dutch '' airline,reminding pilots about the new ATSOCAS,and to avoid flying outside CAS whenever possible.
Also I can only guess from your profile,but the type of aircraft you fly seems Brazilian.In which case being 100 nm late descending seems to be the norm for that type,and being unable to slow down for airspace,or ATC factors is also pretty standard.
As for direct EGPD from the North Sea.Well at EGPD this puts a lot of work on to Approach Radar,because you are mixing it with all the other short cutters,that seem to thrive on wanting an airshow.Also high,fast and conflicting with military.Is this the safest thing to be doing?Direct routing in Class G are happening all the time,even when WW3 is going on in the 613 complex.New fangled Deconfliction services won't necessarily save you getting tangled up with the military.
It would be useful to know who you fly for.
I was reading just today a letter from a chief pilot of a certain ''Blue Dutch '' airline,reminding pilots about the new ATSOCAS,and to avoid flying outside CAS whenever possible.
Also I can only guess from your profile,but the type of aircraft you fly seems Brazilian.In which case being 100 nm late descending seems to be the norm for that type,and being unable to slow down for airspace,or ATC factors is also pretty standard.
As for direct EGPD from the North Sea.Well at EGPD this puts a lot of work on to Approach Radar,because you are mixing it with all the other short cutters,that seem to thrive on wanting an airshow.Also high,fast and conflicting with military.Is this the safest thing to be doing?Direct routing in Class G are happening all the time,even when WW3 is going on in the 613 complex.New fangled Deconfliction services won't necessarily save you getting tangled up with the military.
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DFC
I have heard controllers deny directs outside of CAS due to extensive military activity. When I last flew in that part of the world it did happen now and again. Perfectly understandable.
Piltdown Man
I used to work for an operator who filed and still do file a significant portion of their flights (East Coast UK) outside CAS and this was not helped with the alternatives sometimes simply not being possible from a fuel/range point of view.
Whilst flying for that operator, I had an RA with a F3 from Leuchars. It passed a couple of hundred feet above us with his colleague being slightly more generous and passed a few hundred feet below. I think it would be fair to say that the F3 drivers knew about us since why would they have gone to the effort of providing a lovely fly past? The modus operandi of our military friends is to 'see and literally avoid'. I am sure that most military drivers will happily and perhaps unknowingly erode the comfort zone of most civilian pilots, when it comes to separation in the open FIR.
Maybe that is why the pax were served complimentary champers and sloe gin - "Was that a formation of Tornados that I just saw pass us?"
It is simply not worth it and as for nipping off to OTR on a short cut - you would be surprised at how many airlines no longer file any of their flights outside CAS direct to OTR. This applies especially to Newcastle and Teeside departures.
Anyway... if you want to see creative ways in which capacity is handled. Come to Africa where there is a fraction of the movements and they manage to make a real horlicks of it!
I have never heard a request to leave controlled airspace denied and very seldom delayed. However, trying to get back in again 100nm down the road can take longer and burn more fuel that was saved by the direct leg.
Piltdown Man
I used to work for an operator who filed and still do file a significant portion of their flights (East Coast UK) outside CAS and this was not helped with the alternatives sometimes simply not being possible from a fuel/range point of view.
Whilst flying for that operator, I had an RA with a F3 from Leuchars. It passed a couple of hundred feet above us with his colleague being slightly more generous and passed a few hundred feet below. I think it would be fair to say that the F3 drivers knew about us since why would they have gone to the effort of providing a lovely fly past? The modus operandi of our military friends is to 'see and literally avoid'. I am sure that most military drivers will happily and perhaps unknowingly erode the comfort zone of most civilian pilots, when it comes to separation in the open FIR.
Maybe that is why the pax were served complimentary champers and sloe gin - "Was that a formation of Tornados that I just saw pass us?"
It is simply not worth it and as for nipping off to OTR on a short cut - you would be surprised at how many airlines no longer file any of their flights outside CAS direct to OTR. This applies especially to Newcastle and Teeside departures.
Anyway... if you want to see creative ways in which capacity is handled. Come to Africa where there is a fraction of the movements and they manage to make a real horlicks of it!
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OK here's my answers hope they can help.
when approaching from the south, you are arriving normally not on your own, there are many airlines trying to arrive at the same time at many different levels and many different speeds. now its not much help to the tma controllers if you arrive on a free descent doing 300+kts attempting to lose the altitude with 40 miles to go when he is trying to set up a nice line of arrivals for BOTH PH AND PF because one radar controller, usually with the help of their planner, is trying to sort out the arrival sequence for both of those airports , so it may well be a stream of 15 or 20 aircraft trying to arrive from all directions at the same time time every 15mins in not enough controlled airspace for the job. there is not enough controlled airspace because unlike those large airfields down south we share the skies with the worlds airforces all coming to play in the great scottish wilds, and we set aside large expanses of our airspace for them to do that in. but as they like to see what they kill, if there is bad weather in those areas , they play outside usually right under those upper air routes which provide the most direct route to your destination which do not have airways established beneath them because this would adversely affect the mil's ability to attack each other with impunity so forgive us if we aim you towards the safety of controlled airspace.
The 260 lvl margo removes you from the transatlantic flow coming from the newcastle direction east to west as they flow across at all levels. yes we could let you stay high , but that would increase the complexity and subsequently, workload per aircraft. this will result in the sector capacity being lowered meaning less aircraft allowed per hour, so we dont get overloaded, meaning you sit on the ground longer.Dont get me wrong, its not that we never offer direct routings or late descents. infact, the opposite is true, with us sending aircraft in controlled airpace direct earlier in the day,than london is generally able to do, and if the danger areas are cancelled or close early, we will send aircraft as direct as we can. ask the EHAM or EDDF departures that get direct to their oceanic entry points. our prime restriction is whether the military areas are activated
regarding the arrival to newcastle from the south you are entering a complex piece of airspace controlled by 3 different centres. again you are being descended not because we at scottish have said hell no, it is done because we at scottish are carrying no details of your flight as you are flight planned to remain underneath us, to remove some of the complexity so that we can handle more traffic at its peaks. its probably not the most efficient flight profile for you but it is maximised for airspace use, after all you are not the only plane wanting to fly.
sorry cant help you here, dont work at the airfields
ditto here i'm afraid
Ok this one is a bit subjective. it depends on many things like where you are departing from, where you are going to , what level you want to go at, whether you are wanting ifr. if you are departing from ph for instance , if you do leave controlled airspace to the east, the sector you are entering has controlled airspace traffic as well as lots of traffic outside CAS. if there is world war 3 being practised in the FIR then the controllers primary responsibility is to the traffic inside controlled airspace. so if they are busy there, they may not provide a Deconfliction service, it may only be a traffic service. If they are busy providing Deconfliction service to other a/c they may not have the capacity to provide even a traffic service so you may be offered only a basic service or refused if a route is available inside CAS.You can file to fly whatever way you want, missing danger areas etc, but dont expect a deconfliction service to be automatic, it is subject to controller workload.
No need to worry, i would like to think that if the large managed danger areas (MDA's) in the north sea were not active and that if the RAF and USAF were not out in force, that most of the controllers who work that particular piece of real estate would route you direct. The only proviso to that is that PD have to accept you on the direct route. if they are expecting a large number of arrivals they may request we route you a slightly longer route, via NEXUS-ATF/ADN so as to help integrate you with the rest of the arrivals. Its all well and good to send you on that direct route outside CAS only for you to arrive in the middle of a perfectly arrranged arrival stream and for pd to have no room at the inn, meaning a possible hold until you can be fitted in. BTW i'm not saying thats what they would do ,but they are within their rights to do so
finally, with regards to not being welcome, that i can categorically state is a load of old cr@p. we welcome any pilots that want to come take a look. its a novelty so when one takes an interest we want them to come in so we can show them the reasons behind some restrictions . it can be eye opening for all parties involved. so please dont think we dont give a toss.
1. Descents - if you sneak up on EGPF/H or D from the south have to start your descent a fuel wasting 100 miles or so before you want to. And then, when close in you are kept above an ideal profile. The same applies, I'm told because of Scottish, when you go to EGNT and EGNV. The Germans do it as well, but they have a bit more traffic.
The 260 lvl margo removes you from the transatlantic flow coming from the newcastle direction east to west as they flow across at all levels. yes we could let you stay high , but that would increase the complexity and subsequently, workload per aircraft. this will result in the sector capacity being lowered meaning less aircraft allowed per hour, so we dont get overloaded, meaning you sit on the ground longer.Dont get me wrong, its not that we never offer direct routings or late descents. infact, the opposite is true, with us sending aircraft in controlled airpace direct earlier in the day,than london is generally able to do, and if the danger areas are cancelled or close early, we will send aircraft as direct as we can. ask the EHAM or EDDF departures that get direct to their oceanic entry points. our prime restriction is whether the military areas are activated
regarding the arrival to newcastle from the south you are entering a complex piece of airspace controlled by 3 different centres. again you are being descended not because we at scottish have said hell no, it is done because we at scottish are carrying no details of your flight as you are flight planned to remain underneath us, to remove some of the complexity so that we can handle more traffic at its peaks. its probably not the most efficient flight profile for you but it is maximised for airspace use, after all you are not the only plane wanting to fly.
2. What do I do with the information of "threshold elevation" and how do I apply it? If somebody rushed out and changed it fifty feet or so overnight, I probably wouldn't notice.
3. (EGPF here) What is wet? Given a bone dry runway, they are regularly reporting WET WET WET. Why? We need to be able to trust ATC and crying wolf to cover your six is not helpful.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?
5. And thank you to the lovely lady who gave us direct to EGPD from the middle of the North Sea- I'll not say when less I get her into trouble.
finally, with regards to not being welcome, that i can categorically state is a load of old cr@p. we welcome any pilots that want to come take a look. its a novelty so when one takes an interest we want them to come in so we can show them the reasons behind some restrictions . it can be eye opening for all parties involved. so please dont think we dont give a toss.
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The AIP (ENR 1-7-3 5.3.4) states that when a runway threshold is 7 feet or greater below the aerodrome reference point (ARP) then a threshold elevation is to be passed to aircraft landing QNH together with that pressure setting. Cant speak for the other airports but the figures at Edinburgh are ARP 135 feet, threshold 06 110 feet, threshold 24 100 feet roughly 1mb difference in pressure at the thresholds than at the midpoint (where the ARP is). Rather than pass this information to each individual aircraft during what is already a bit of a mouthful when clearing to intercept the localiser, descend on the glideslope a decision was taken to instead state the threshold elevation on the ATIS.
Hope this helps
Baggy
Hope this helps
Baggy
Rather than pass this information to each individual aircraft during what is already a bit of a mouthful ................
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Ayrprox & others - thank you very much for the time and effort you have put into your replies. Now I feel more able to give my colleagues an explanation as to how the airspace in which we operate is managed. The only bit that now puzzles me is why we ever needed to have an announcement in the first place of threshold elevation when is well documented. But it's not important so please don't spend effort answering.
Thanks & I might even make the call.
PM
Thanks & I might even make the call.
PM
Join Date: Mar 2002
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I have heard controllers deny directs outside of CAS
As I said, I don't know any controllers who will refuse a request to leave the airspace..
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Mad Jock,
If you are departing at 1035 do you wait for the ATIS issued at 1025 before doing your figures? or do you use what you see outside the window and the METAR / TAF to decide if it is going to be wet or dry at the time of departure?
I hope that you don't fly an aircraft where there are major differences between the dry and wet weights because the company is going to want to know what weight you will be able to use long before the ATIS is recorded.
The problem is that while the runway is dry, the ATIS is reporting it as wet. Even if everything goes to plan, if a resultant audit / random check of the paperwork some weeks later picks up the fact that drty performace figures were used but the ATIS said wet then there will have to be some explaining done.
If however, we can lift the same weight out wet or dry then we don't care but good airmanship would cause a report that the information being provided by the Flight Information Service was wrong.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Piltdown Man,
The ATIS at PD,and probably PH,PF are automated with the Samos system.It's transmitted by the wee mannie hiding in the secret booth somewhere.Threshold Elevation is always given out,so I don't see the problem.
Take a visit round PD sometime as well,especially if WW3 is kicking off in the MDA's.Even Nexus,ATF/ADN routing,is getting you into a very scary piece of airspace in Class G.
55 mile radius from PD is a hell of a lot of sky,to look out for bandits 12 o'clock high,and do the other primary tasks that are required.The 3 aircraft that I have had in ClassG that were almost welded with the military,were all on RAS/Deconfliction.All sitting ducks.
Good luck out there.
The ATIS at PD,and probably PH,PF are automated with the Samos system.It's transmitted by the wee mannie hiding in the secret booth somewhere.Threshold Elevation is always given out,so I don't see the problem.
Take a visit round PD sometime as well,especially if WW3 is kicking off in the MDA's.Even Nexus,ATF/ADN routing,is getting you into a very scary piece of airspace in Class G.
55 mile radius from PD is a hell of a lot of sky,to look out for bandits 12 o'clock high,and do the other primary tasks that are required.The 3 aircraft that I have had in ClassG that were almost welded with the military,were all on RAS/Deconfliction.All sitting ducks.
Good luck out there.