UK Flight Plan Question

[DFC]

A Foreign heli pilot is operating in the UK. They are going to fly from a private site in Wales where there is no fax, no internet.

This pilot recognises that he is operating in one of the UK designated hostile areas of operation and consequently wants to file a flight plan.

All I can find at the moment are fax numbers etc.

What is the telephone number that pilots can use to file a flight plan from a muddy field in wales using a simple mobile telephone?

Secondly, this heli pilot is departing from an isolated site and proceeding to another isolated site this time in the Highlands of Scotland. There is no one available to act as the "responsible person". What has happened to the following?

Calling the FIS and having a dep message sent to activate the flight plan? and

Requesting that an ATS unit act as the "responsible person".

It seems to me that the latest arrangements are not in accordance with ICAO SARPS because;

1. Not every flight can file a flight plan if they want

2. Flights that have filed a FPL can not have a dep message sent by an ATS unit when they are departing from a remote site

3. No alerting service is provided to flights on an active flight plan - the onus is on the flight to have a non-ats agency perform the alerting function.

Seems to me that the CAA needs to look again at how NATS are providing the service in the UK with regard ti flight plan filing, activating, closing and the alerting service for flights to remote places on active flight plans.

Regards,

DFC

Regards,

DFC

[adz1616]

hey

yep you can file a flight plan over the phone with LHR on 0208 750 2615

[fisbangwollop]

If you wish you can also air file a FPL......on departure call London Infrmation to file airborne flight Plan.......on arrival at private site in Scotland advise Scottish Info 119.875 that you wish to close your flight plan.......that said though why bother to file at all. Providing you call London info on departure they will hand you over to Scottish info as you cross the brder and you will maintain radio contact with Scottish till you descend to land at the private site....that way you stay safe and there is no need to hasle the system by fileing a plan.

[samos]

You cannot file a flight plan with Heathrow on 02087502615 anymore its closed.
Its now done at Swanwick

[ollie_a]

You could try 0845 601 0483/4?

[DFC]

You could try 0845 601 0483/4?

Where is that and where is that number published?

Regards,

DFC

[Sky blue and black]

Uk Aip Enr 1-10-2

[DFC]

Unfortunately, those numbers are the help desk for the internet based flight planning system and the person to talk to about setting up a new account.

If one reads that part of the AIP, one is left in no doubt that if you are a solo pilot proceeding from a muddy field in a sparsely populated area to the same kind of place somewhere else that you will find it impossible to file a flight plan and have alerting action taken if you fail to arrive at the destination muddy field as expected.

Isn't this a breach of basic ICAO requirements?

Is there any other country where you can not file a flight plan and have it activated easily unless departing from an aerodrome with an ATS unit and where if you fail to close the flight plan on landing no one ever bothers to come looking for you?

If I tell a responsible person that my ETA at some out of the way place is 1900 and enroute for various reasons I will be 35 minutes late will the FIR or any other ATC unit pass on the updated ETA to the responsible person so that overdue action is not started?

Imagine I am talking to some big military airfield radar unit. They know I am fine and a bit behind time but no problem. Will the MOD ring my Granny's mobile several times to reassure her that she should not worry I am OK just a bit late so don't press the panic botton whan I have not telephoned her within 30 minutes of the time I told her some 5 hours before.

How does the ATC supervisor at LACC or ScOACC feel when there are flights in their area of responsibility that have filed a flight plan but either;

a) They are reported overdue incorrectly or

b) Are not reported overdue when it is necessary?

Duty of Care anyone?

Regards,

DFC

[boredcounter]

DFC

You cold pay for Ops support and phone your agent from the muddy field on your mobile and leave it all to them?

[White Hart]

'Duty of Care anyone?'

we argued this topic along with every other one you could think of in order to keep the Heathrow FBU open, and to continue offering its services to people like yourself. All shot down in flames on the basis of cost.

Afpex (the internet offering) was created to provide the opportunity for pilots to file FPLs via the Internet, which was what the GA community in particular were asking for. In their infinite wisdom, however, NATS took this as an opportunity to reduce costs (?) and staffing by completely replacing the existing service with the new one, rather than combining the two, which would have genuinely improved the service, irrespective of who delivered it. By doing this, NATS has honoured its obligations under the ANO, and has (allegedly) saved money as a by-product.

As to whether the service is improved...

and as an addition, if you haven't done so already, have a read of the Flyer forums for a GA-based view on the matter since Jan09.

[DC10RealMan]

DFC.

I would agree with White Hart that the new system was introduced by NATS with cost savings and not safety in mind. I worked in the ATC system for thirty years and have severe reservations about timely and effective overdue action being taking in the event of me being overdue when flying. I have agreed an unofficial system with an ex-colleague who is also a pilot that I will call him when I depart with a firm ETA and in the event of me not calling him within a certain time he will call the police to initiate overdue action. I appreciate that it is an unofficial system, but it is one that I have more faith in than the present hotch-potch of responsibilities and agencies particularly as it is my life and my passengers lives on the line.

[DFC]

boredcounter,

There is no requirement under ICAO or national requirements to engage a representative to act as a go-between for pilot (operator) and ATC.

Unfortunately, Afpex is limited to UK operators. Even if a foreign operator had a laptop with mobile internet, they are barred from using the system.

I think that the only answer to the question for my friend is to ring the relevant ACC supervisor and request to file a FPL over the phone. If that is refused then file an MOR since this inability to file a flight plan is covered by the MOR system.

Unfortunately with regard to overdue action, the lack of alerting has been mentioned in several accident reports. All refer to the "responsible person" but none recomend that the responsible person be appropriately trained.

The ATC training sylabus has mandatory training elements covering alerting action / overdue action etc.

This is the basic ICAO requirement. How does the CAA ensure that responsible persons are appropriately trained to provide the alerting service NATs is refusing to provide?

How many police stations are going to give the reply "well the person has to be missing for 24 hours before we would file a missing persons report sir" to your friend DC10Realman.

Under the previous system, the responsible person had to be given the Parent Unit number. Under this system there is no parent system as such and no clear number to ring where appropriate action can be taken.

Ringing 999 and reporting an accident is not appropriate unless one knows that an accident has really occurred and not appropriate just because the flight is delayed by 32 minutes and ATS units enroute refused to provide an updated eta to the responsible person.

Thanks for the replies - I think that the answer is for such operations the only answer is to use French, Dutch, Swiss, German or Austrian ATS facilities for operations in the UK.

How long before EASA fix this I wonder?

Regards,

DFC

[TALLOWAY]

You sound like your spoiling for a rumble mate, rather than simply seeking information. What's your agenda here?

DFC has a long track history of hating the UK, the CAA, NATS, ATC, and everyone else under the sun. Maybe an SRG Inspector ran away with his wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/pet dog or whatever ?

Now to DFC:

This pilot recognises that he is operating in one of the UK designated hostile areas of operation and consequently wants to file a flight plan.

What is a UK 'hostile area' ? Where are these designated ? Are the Welsh Nationalists going to burn his helicopter down or something ?

What is the telephone number that pilots can use to file a flight plan from a muddy field in wales using a simple mobile telephone?

Use the parent ATC number and explain your predicament to them. I am sure they will accept the plan and file it for you, regardless of what the AIP says. What they won't be able to do is send you a copy back so you can check it for errors. That's a risk you'll just have to accept ... or run crying to EASA about.

Or do what FISBangWallop says and file it in the air.

Secondly, this heli pilot is departing from an isolated site and proceeding to another isolated site this time in the Highlands of Scotland. There is no one available to act as the "responsible person".

Who is the pilot ?? Billy No Mates ? Is it not just laziness that they can't find someone ... anyone, to look out for them ? They must live somewhere and have people there, or friends, or relations. Is it a lack of initiative that they can't get someone from an Air Traffic Control Centre or nearby ATSU to act as that person as a final backstop. Did they even think to ask ?

Calling the FIS and having a dep message sent to activate the flight plan?

Yes, you can do that. Who says you can't ?

Requesting that an ATS unit act as the "responsible person".

Yes, you can do that. But that involves you talking to them and asking them to carry out the task. Initiaitve required.

It seems to me that the latest arrangements are not in accordance with ICAO SARPS because;

These are not mandatory. They are standards (to try and attain) or recommended practices (which have no mandate). What's your point ?

1. Not every flight can file a flight plan if they want

Yes, they can, but it needs a Commander who knows his responsibilities and who to talk to.

2. Flights that have filed a FPL can not have a dep message sent by an ATS unit when they are departing from a remote site

Yes, they can. Ask the FIS sector to do it for you. Or any ATSU unit which you talk to on the trip.

3. No alerting service is provided to flights on an active flight plan - the onus is on the flight to have a non-ats agency perform the alerting function.

More bollocks spouted. Alerting service is provided by ALL ATS units which you talk to. Alerting Service for your non arrival is provided by your 'responsible person'. As a Commander you have the responsibility to brief any passengers during your flight. It's also your responsibility to brief your 'responsible person' as to what they should do and when. If you can't take this on, send your pilots licence back because you are clearly not capable of carrying out your Commanders duties.

Seems to me that the CAA needs to look again at how NATS are providing the service in the UK with regard ti flight plan filing, activating, closing and the alerting service for flights to remote places on active flight plans.

Seems to me they have a system that works for everyone except DFC. Not a perfect system, but one which does the job.

Is there any other country where you can not file a flight plan and have it activated easily unless departing from an aerodrome with an ATS unit and where if you fail to close the flight plan on landing no one ever bothers to come looking for you?

But you tell someone when you are planning to arrive, you tell them what to do if you don't, you tell them who to contact (parent ATS unit). The parent ATS unit then set wheels in motion to come looking for you. Simples.

If I tell a responsible person that my ETA at some out of the way place is 1900 and enroute for various reasons I will be 35 minutes late will the FIR or any other ATC unit pass on the updated ETA to the responsible person so that overdue action is not started?

They will if you pass them the 'responsible person's' number and ask them to. Why wouldn't they ? Are you sure you should be out on your own ? You seem incapable of thinking things through.

Imagine I am talking to some big military airfield radar unit. They know I am fine and a bit behind time but no problem. Will the MOD ring my Granny's mobile several times to reassure her that she should not worry I am OK just a bit late so don't press the panic botton whan I have not telephoned her within 30 minutes of the time I told her some 5 hours before.

As above, ask them to.

How does the ATC supervisor at LACC or ScOACC feel when there are flights in their area of responsibility that have filed a flight plan but either;

a) They are reported overdue incorrectly or

b) Are not reported overdue when it is necessary?

They don't feel anything. They do their jobs, professionally. Someone reported overdue and they are not ? No big deal, better safe than sorry. Someone not reported overdue when they should be points more than likely to a failure of the commander. He has either not put in place a responsible person, or has not briefed them properly, or has not made them aware of any changes. It comes with the territory of having your pilots licence. Stop trying to shunt blame on to everyone else. It really isn't rocket science.

DC10RealMan

I worked in the ATC system for thirty years and have severe reservations about timely and effective overdue action being taking in the event of me being overdue when flying. I have agreed an unofficial system with an ex-colleague who is also a pilot that I will call him when I depart with a firm ETA and in the event of me not calling him within a certain time he will call the police to initiate overdue action.

It's not an unofficial system. It's been in the AIP for years.

DFC

I think that the only answer to the question for my friend is to ring the relevant ACC supervisor and request to file a FPL over the phone. If that is refused then file an MOR since this inability to file a flight plan is covered by the MOR system.

The penny drops .. at last. And get over yourself .... why would an ACC refuse to file a plan for you ??

Unfortunately with regard to overdue action, the lack of alerting has been mentioned in several accident reports. All refer to the "responsible person" but none recomend that the responsible person be appropriately trained.

The 'responsible person' came in precisely because of an accident. They don't need training, they need a proper and complete briefing from the Commander. The Commander might also want to check their understanding of the briefing to make sure he is happy and to ensure his obligations have been discharged.

This is the basic ICAO requirement. How does the CAA ensure that responsible persons are appropriately trained to provide the alerting service NATs is refusing to provide?

.

You are the Commander. It's your job regarding the 'responsible person'. NATS are fully trained to carry out ICAO Alerting Actions when it is clear they need to do so.

How many police stations are going to give the reply "well the person has to be missing for 24 hours before we would file a missing persons report sir" to your friend DC10Realman.

Why did you give the 'responsible person' a police station number ?? Why not give them the ACC number instead. You are just wasting time since all the police will do is phone the ACC.

Under the previous system, the responsible person had to be given the Parent Unit number. Under this system there is no parent system as such and no clear number to ring where appropriate action can be taken.

You can't find an ACC number anywhere in the AIP ?

Ringing 999 and reporting an accident is not appropriate unless one knows that an accident has really occurred and not appropriate just because the flight is delayed by 32 minutes and ATS units enroute refused to provide an updated eta to the responsible person.

Give me an example where you did this and the ATS unit refused to pass it on. I'll wager it's a lie.

Thanks for the replies - I think that the answer is for such operations the only answer is to use French, Dutch, Swiss, German or Austrian ATS facilities for operations in the UK.

Now we reach the real point. You hate the UK. Did we chop you from ATC here or something ?

[Spitoon]

Many of TALLOWAY's responses have some merit. Nonetheless, DFC does make a valid point that perhaps the UK has not fully implemented the ICAO SARPs for flight planning Alerting Service.

Perhaps the question is whether the UK system which '... have a system that works for everyone except DFC. Not a perfect system, but one which does the job.' is the same as one which meets the ICAO SARPs.

Maybe it is worth pointing out that the UK has filed a difference with respect to one of the SARPs in this area - so although DFC may want to have a whinge, the UK system is at least documented.

[DFC]

Sounds like Talloway might have been the person who was involved in the "cost cutting exercise". Sorry for rattling your cage!

However, you seem to think that a person who has no one available to act as responsible person is as you say "Billy no mates" but the pervious incarnation of the UK system for good reason made an allowance for such a situation and had a defined procedures for nominating the parent unit as the responsible person.

Clearly you seem to be of the opinion that air traffic services should be preformed simply as a result of the good will of ATC staff willing to do something that they are not required to do and for the Pilots to do their own ATS.

I am sure that many watch supervisors at the ACC or some other ATS unit will help out in such a case but there is no requirement for them to do so.

Very surprised that you have not read the AIP regarding when a flight plan should be filed.

You also seem to unaware of the fact that even a non-radio aircraft it entitled to an alerting service for their entire flight if they file a plan and get it activated.

Not anti-UK is any form. Simply questioning why other providers are extending their services in these areas and providing the full ICAO service to flights in the UK while NATS is reducing the service provided.

Two UK operators are in discussions regarding this new system - they must all be failed ATCOs who hate the UK

Thanks to those that actually answered my questions.

Regards,

DFC

PS Talloway, No I have not even tried. I probably would fail if I did!! However I don't know what hold failed ATCOs have over NATS because it seems that everyone who asks an akward question must be (according to you) a failed ATCO.

Thankfully we dont hear "you must be a failed pilot" when flight crew are asked a question - ops sorry that would be an ATCO (Old joke)

[ZOOKER]

Wales,
"UK designated hostile area of operation".

[bookworm]

There is no requirement under ICAO or national requirements to engage a representative to act as a go-between for pilot (operator) and ATC.

Where precisely is the requirement that says that the state must provide a mechanism for filing a flight plan by phone from a random field?