UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[1985]

You could always go in to work on a day off for a briefing, as you expect your Union Reps to do. How many briefing are they expected to give? How much of their spare time are they expected to give up? And you can't be bothered to give up an hour or two of your own time.
Just plain lazy!

I didn't go either. First one on a day off, then two more on leave and then yesterdays one finished before i went to work. Oh and i didn't get told about them until i went to work. Four briefings in four days aren't enough to get everyone.

[Bucking Bronco]

FFS you guys need to start getting more aggressive in your negotiations. "Working together" was a managment con in our company - it's the same in yours, wake up and realise that it's only going to lead to poorer Ts and Cs. What have ATCOs got out of the relationship? Getting screwed over in your last pay deal whilst that TCPB took a nice pay rise, Mrs PB earning £130k for work for one of the board and mgmt taking a decent payrise after you'd agreed to your shafting.

This plus the blatant lies told which lead to your capitulation over pensions, even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

Just look across at the going rates over in the EU and see how far you've been left behind.

[roger]

I don't expect my union reps to do it on their days off. Being a rep is voluntary, just like the meetings. Nothing lazy about it.

btw...I didn't go to any meetings, they all coincided with my tea breaks.

[Bucking Bronco]

Are your Reps not credited for Union duties by NATS?

Don't Tell him Pike - spot on. Unbelievable that people can't be bothered to go to meetings/briefings, it's this apathy that plays directly into the hands of management. A compliant apathetic workforce that can't be bothered to be educated on issues that effect their Ts and Cs - a manager's wet dream. With attitudes like that you reap what you sow.

[250 kts]

Just look across at the going rates over in the EU and see how far you've been left behind.

Some examples please?

[roger]

Are your Reps not credited for Union duties by NATS?

Yes they are, an hour worked on a day off gets a day in lieu.

Don't Tell him Pike - spot on. Unbelievable that people can't be bothered to go to meetings/briefings, it's this apathy that plays directly into the hands of management. A compliant apathetic workforce that can't be bothered to be educated on issues that effect their Ts and Cs - a manager's wet dream. With attitudes like that you reap what you sow.

What a load of tosh. Solidarity Reg.

We don't get a say, just told what has been decided. (ref over time rates/conditions) I choose not to work overtime because I enjoy being at home. There are plenty of people that will come in on days off though which is why the rate hasn't changed from that of 2000/02 while training for Swanwick.

[roger]

even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

They need to shake this up to make it fairer to the full time people working full shifts. Shift pay could be apportioned better, for example. That's not to say all part time workers make up they're own shifts trying to out do each other with earlier and earlier finish times, but it does go on and needs to be taken into hand.

[Smoggie]

Ref: even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

I believe this refers to the changes the company wish to bring in to the pension scheme, even though we were told that after closing the scheme to new entrants we wouldn't be asked to make any more changes.

As I understand it, apologies in advance I don't have any exact figures to hand:

ATCO A works full time, after returning from maternity leave they go part time (for arguments sake 50%) for 5 years for child care reasons, then return full time.

Under current terms ATCO A can at a later date buy back those 2.5 years to make up their pension at the same rate (defined benefit) as their colleagues who continued to work full time. The company want to change this so that ATCO A would buy back years in to a defined contribution scheme similar to the pension scheme for new entrants instead.

This would affect anybody who reduced their working hours for any amount of time due childcare, illness, looking after eldery relative, etc.

[5milesbaby]

Don't Tell Him Pike, you are an

5 Miles
You could always go in to work on a day off for a briefing, as you expect your Union Reps to do. How many briefing are they expected to give? How much of their spare time are they expected to give up? And you can't be bothered to give up an hour or two of your own time.
Just plain lazy!

3 of the 4 were days off ie the briefings notice was posted while I was NOT in work so I didn't see there were any briefings until I came into work on the day that the last briefing was taking place. On that day I was in the simulators examining, the final exercise completely clashed with the briefing so there was no chance of being released to go to it. We couldn't move the last exercise due to the emergency DD&C as the simulators had to be handed to the system engineers to start reconfiguring it. What's the point of jumping down someone's throat, could you not just post what you know about the briefings? Would have saved you being thrown a shovel load back.

I'm still not much wiser even since talking to my colleagues, they were in the same boat, only knew about the briefings on the final day & not many could be released from the ops room. The union really do need to be shaken up as the standard of their work is getting embarrassing.

[Me Me Me Me]

5miles
The union really do need to be shaken up as the standard of their work is getting embarrassing.

Well get your application in to be a rep. If you don't then you have no place complaining.

blueskythinking
I am sure the previous two posters think it is a good deal. Can't really be bothered to get into an argument about it as you were probably happy to wave goodbye to your pension rights too. Any deal that gets you less money for the same thing as we did ten years ago can't be seen as driving a hard bargain. Simple enough for you?

It was people like you who caused the worst recession in living memory. Greed. Sheer unadulterated greed. Simple enough for you?

[5milesbaby]

Me Me Me Me - bored of hearing people say "get involved". I haven't got time, I do many of those other unpaid jobs that are needed instead. I pay my monthly subscriptions to Prospect therefore I expect to be properly represented. Its a shame there isn't a decent alternative as I'd soon move.

[250 kts]

I'm still not much wiser even since talking to my colleagues

And are you wiser since you spoke to your watch rep?-or couldn't you be a*sed to find one to get a personal briefing?

You could even request a copy of the agreement if you want one from your rep-even I understood it so it can't be too complicated.

[blueskythinking]

i am so sorry

me me me me - i can only apologise for causing the worst recession in living memory!! There was me thinking it was predominantly caused by sub prime borrowing in the US and over leveraged buyouts of dotcom companies! I will immediately seek out my union rep ( will be fairly easy as he will be in our management suite ) and offer to increase my subscriptions. Alternatively I could continue to view things from a more realistic viewpoint and see that once again our union ( and yes it is my union too as I suspect I have spent at least as long as you funding it as well as five years as a rep ) have been conned by a slippery management team. Am I the only one who has noticed our reps answering every question with a sentence beginning with ' so ' . Now who else does that??

[eyeinthesky]

The attitude of some amazes me:

On the third day of the unprecedented complete shutdown of air transport in the UK at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA and sat in the AC Ops Room with blank radar screens. I bet he'll be the first to complain if his 'rights' are infringed in any negotiations.

Wasn't you was it, 5 miles?

[looneykeycode]

efd interface

Guess what, they want to interface EFD to AMAN.

How do ya think thats going tp work out in TC?

[250 kts]

Guess what, they want to interface EFD to AMAN.

And that has what to do with Pay negotiations?

at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA

I guess he'll have been put in the ORO's "little black book" then for not to use in the future unless absolutely necessary. Quite unbelievable attitude.

[Me Me Me Me]

blueskythinking
me me me me - i can only apologise for causing the worst recession in living memory!! There was me thinking it was predominantly caused by sub prime borrowing in the US and over leveraged buyouts of dotcom companies! I will immediately seek out my union rep ( will be fairly easy as he will be in our management suite ) and offer to increase my subscriptions. Alternatively I could continue to view things from a more realistic viewpoint and see that once again our union ( and yes it is my union too as I suspect I have spent at least as long as you funding it as well as five years as a rep ) have been conned by a slippery management team. Am I the only one who has noticed our reps answering every question with a sentence beginning with ' so ' . Now who else does that??

I said people like you, not you. The recession would appear to have been caused by sub-prime lending and over-inflated share pricing etc. The common theme is greed. Investors, bankers, executives etc all wanting something for nothing and contributing to an ever-expanding bubble in order to line their own pockets, with no regard to the long term effects when that bubble finally burst.

You find yourself being offered a tidy chunk of change, on top of a good salary, to turn up for training on a day off that you will also be given back to take later... All this at a time of global financial turmoil and significant cost-cutting. No really something to be complaining about is it.

For what it's worth, I've also had my issues with how our reps at a central level have handled things. I believe they were out-played on the pension debate and also rather gullible on the last pay deal. I am a rep though, so I also sympathise with what a difficult job it can be at times.

[The Many Tentacles]

On the third day of the unprecedented complete shutdown of air transport in the UK at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA and sat in the AC Ops Room with blank radar screens. I bet he'll be the first to complain if his 'rights' are infringed in any negotiations.

I was asked last night if I would volunteer to not work my 1/2 AAVA this afternoon and was told that I was the third to be asked and one had cancelled and one had refused to cancel theirs.

I know there's not much give from management usually, but there's got to be a bit of give and take in circumstances like these

[eyeinthesky]

You don't actually say what your response was...

Based upon the time of your post I suspect it was the honourable thing. If not, you were being paid extra money by NATS to contribute to PPRuNE!!

[The Many Tentacles]

No, my conscience wouldn't allow it. I thought about it and then had an afternoon of sitting in my garden instead.