250 kts

Yes and yes!

DTY/LKS

Wouldn't it be interesting for Barron to do his bar-stool sessions at the moment??

Air.Farce.1

I was never taken in with that bar "stool" crap (no pun intended ). He will try and shaft us, take a shed load of dosh and move on to his next victim.
A lot of people have been sucked in by his style of leadership, I am not one of them .
Who is responsible for losing the £120 million over the Spanish fiasco? No doubt they left for "family reasons" or worse still they are still "active" in CTC or whatever it is called

Emma1974

A few things.
1)I was just thinking today why The Barron hasnt been doing his bar stool sessions recently.
2)Public support is neither here nor there.We would strike irrespective anyway.
3)The people saying they would be offended and disgusted that people might break the picket line.Who the h3ll do you think you are?We live in a democracy where we have the RIGHT to STRIKE and the RIGHT to WORK.The reason someone comes into work is nobody elses business(Whats wrong with having a big TV!)
I am sure I would strike,however I dont think anyone of us has a right to BULLY others pre-strike(or post strike)

4)Lastly,I think strike action would be worth it.If only to read/hear the rantings at RyanTowers!!

bratbaak

Emma, you are right, we do live in a democracy and people do have a choice, but if it comes to strike action will those who choose not to strike happily accept their wages and protected pension, (if strike action is successful), whilst those who fought to protect those rights are out of pocket? What if it requires prolonged strike action and people end up seriously out of pocket, (as you tend to spend what you earn), will they think of assisting (financially) those whose actions they will benefit from? If your answer is that they will take their money and pension and suffer no loss of income themselves then that is where people are entitled to feel bitter.

Emma1974

Nobody is making anybody strike and nobody will make anyone work.
If someone chooses to strike,then they take the financial hit.If they want to waste their time feeling bitter towards people thats their perogative.

What happens if the non strikers are not members of the union?

I really thought we had moved beyond this working class "scab" attitude.

mr.777

Let's see if you still feel the same in 10 years time when we wont be able to even negotiate an extended tea break because a people decided it wasnt worth striking this time around over something as important as pensions.
If you feel that strongly about it then I suggest you follow your own example and come into work.
Nobody is calling anybody a "scab" but people need to be made to realise the importance over what is going to happen over the coming months. If they choose not to participate then fine...just dont moan in the future about it beacuse you will get zero sympathy.

MrJones

I am puzzled.

NATS management must know how dearly we hold our pension and how weak their argument is after all the years of their underpayment.

By saying their position is non negotiable they are setting themselves on a collision course with one of the most strategically powerful group of workers in the country.

The tanker drivers got a 14% pay rise after a couple of days strike action.

NATS management must know that after a couple of days of strikes, their owners – the airlines – will be screaming out for a solution to be found and found fast.

So NATS management must either be banking on us not having the balls to strike over our pensions or they must perversely want to find other employment.

Or, they must know something we don’t. Like CTC is so stuffed with Here Today Gone Tomorrow staff who will vote 'Yes Please' for any £1,000 that we are already doomed to lose any ballot.

Data Dad

Mr Jones wrote:

I am not entirely sure that "their" position relating to pay/current pension scheme members is non-negotiable. Below is what the NTUS statement says:

Now that can be read in several ways - I think it says that the non-negotiable stance is that pension arrangements for new entrants must be free of risk or in other words apart from that, everything is still negotiable but am open to correction on that.

DD

throw a dyce

Mr Jones,
The tanker drivers were small fry compared with the North Sea divers.They wanted about 40% rise,and within 4 days got it.If you shut down the entire North Sea Oil industry,it gets their attention.Enough said.

Caesartheboogeyman

Emma, are you serious in your posts?
The only excuse for breaking a picket line is if you are not a member of the union.
Any other picket line breaker should be known as "scab" in place of their first name for the rest of their days.
The point made in reply to your post about enjoying benefits and resolved terms of employment whilst not having the balls to stand up for it is very true.
scabs should be made to negotiate their own terms and conditions. See how far you get in an army of one.
Its not as if we would be on strike for a month or more. I can't imagine any strike would be longer than 24 hours action at a time. not exactly breaking the bank for us is it, when you consider how much impact it would have and how important the pension is. It is the most important part of our contract in my opinion. If we don't stand up to protect it we might aswell kill ourselves now to save a slow and painful death from getting rogered in the future.

on a separate note i heard a rumour that the red barron was bought a db9 from the company recently? is this true? that fits well with vision 2011 and is a waste of money that could be put into pension fund.

slip and turn

Yes DD, and that means ? ... come on, keep up!

Let me describe a thin end of a wedge - I am just going to introduce it to the side of your head - a slightly cold feeling, but you hardly feel it do you? Still comfortable? Why am I doing it? Oh don't worry about that. Now then, you may have seen me pick up this hammer before ... no need to flinch

barstewards

Management say a new scheme will not impact on those of us in the current final salary scheme.....

At present all staff are paying into OUR scheme. Some of this money is paying towards the (well deserved) pensions of retired colleagues.If the scheme is closed to new entrants funding from younger staff will stop. When the staff who are currently in their 20's/30's come to retire there will be very little left (if anything) in the pot to pay our pension as the scheme is no longer being funded by the 'new' staff. Where do we collect our pensions from? The 'new' staff won't care, the public won't care and the shareholders in nats will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Any pension scheme must be properly funded or it will run out of money - I doubt people in any 'new' scheme would vote yes to subsidising our pension.

NATS 'borrowed' money from the scheme and have never paid it back.
NATS is not paying in as much money as it could into the scheme
NATS has made massive profits over the last few years due to the HARD WORK or ALL staff - office, engineers, atsa, atco's.

This is a very serious matter - join you union today. Lets stick together and tell senior 'management' what we ALL think. No pension = no NATS.

We will lose some money in the short term if it comes to strike action. Prepare for it now and put a little aside now to cover any shortfall in income in the coming months.
Sell out now and you can kiss goodbye to future pay rises, expect yet more erosion to your terms and conditions, less annual leave and longer working hours.

Please don't kid yourselves that this is not a problem. NATS does not exist without us - shareholders make no money and the airlines will be shafted. YOU do the hard work so stand up and be counted so YOU get the pension that YOU deserve.

055166k

Maybe management have been looking into what happened last time. Strike breakers sneaking in via obscure routes, calling in sick, panic leave requests, frantic scrutiny of duty roster hoping that it's a day off, any office numpty and/or manager with anything close to a validation anywhere being used to fill a seat.
It can come as no surprise that anyone showing competence in union activities can be promoted "on side", placing them in a tricky personal position.
Withdrawing goodwill or some other pathetic wishy-washy proposal is nothing, absolutely nothing!
I'll make my mind up when I've been briefed on all the facts by my union representative, and not before. Anybody else out there got "unauthorised absence" on their personal file......that is the measure of commitment you may be asked to make?

Caesartheboogeyman

aewaite17, Yes i would include validating and college students in this aswell as families with a newborn.
If you are in the union, they negotiate on your behalf. if the union ballots its members and it comes back as a yes to industrial action then this is what should occur.
college students wouldnt (or shouldn't) have any instructors on site to teach them anything as they should be at the gate.
same goes for validating students, their instructors should be at the gate.

There will be people it would hit more, newborn families, big mortgage families etc but it is not going to be a massive hit. As i have said before, i dont think think that we would be on strike for such a significant length of time as to really make a difference to a pay packet?
three 24 hour strikes over a period of 4-6 weeks similar to recent strikes by tube staff etc would cause a lot of disruption to airlines, aircraft and crews in wrong positions, delays, cancellations, angry customers in terminals both here and abroad ( see zoom x 100)
I would guess that a full 24 hour day of action would disrupt the aviation world in this country for at least 3 or 4 days??
surely our customers, the airlines, would put pressure on nats to sit down and negotiate a resolution very speedily.
I don't like the idea of strike action, it is messy and can impact directly on many peoples lives causing stress, worry and frustration. But this is the biggest issue to affect me in my 16.5 years since leaving the college. It is a must that we at least negotiate very hard with management and make it clear that our pension is here to stay. at NO RISK to us.

DAL208

As a recently validated atco, trying to pay off debts, i cannot afford to strike.
However, i am part of the union and if a strike was called, i would not cross a picket line. When you join a Union, you do not join just to get the benefits you undoubtedly aquire through being part of a strong team...you are part of a team, and you need to work together in that team...through good days and bad. If you cant then you shouldnt be part of union. Thats how i see it anyway...i do feel sorry for any atcos with newborns in particular, however, we are not particularly poorly paid in long term, a small hit wont kill anyone.

Caesartheboogeyman

well said that man

Dad30

I personally would rather not go on strike and as an ATSA I believe that NATS will try to get rid of me way before I retire (got to get there first!) but I am a member of the union and the union is only as strong as its members. The unions have negotiated very good terms and conditions for ATSAs and ATCOs and I benefit from the unions strength so therefore I will back whatever the decision of any industrial action ballot.

Standard Noise

Sorry, but I don't see the relevance of 'families with a newborn'. Are we assuming that all ATCOs with newborn children are at the bottom of the scale or potless? Anyhoo, any pay lost is relative to the salary, ie if you're nearer the bottom of the scale or at a lower banded unit then you will lose less money.
Can I afford to lose two or three days money over six weeks if we were to strike, well in the short term, no. In the long term where my pension is affected, a couple of days' pay is small change compared to what we will lose. I've already lost by transferring my old CAAPS pot (and other pension pots) into the NATS section pension when Brizzel came into NATS. Many of my colleagues transferred their pensions in as well and are looking at having less years than they would have in their old scheme, when retirement comes around.

All out brothers...............oh, and sisters!

SN,
ex union rep

ZOOKER

If you folks did walk out an hour/shift or whatever, it would be worth the annual licence fee to see The Red Barron enjoying a 'Bar Stool Session' with Mr Paxman.
"Now here's your starter":- "Our air is not for sale". C'mon, C'mon.