NATS Pensions (Split from Pay 2009 thread)
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This may and probably will sound daft but excuse im ignorance....
How can a company take a "holiday" from paying into the pension? would that not mean that as employees we should be entitled to the same holiday entitlement, so maybe what we should have been saying to the company is for the % of the correct amount of funding the company is paying less then as employees we should be entitled to do the same! We live in a land of so called equal opportunity!!!!!
Basically im my opion we would not even be discussing this if the company paid what the should have been doing the whole time....and since we are meant to be a non profit making company then the pension pot is where any profits should be going!
How can a company take a "holiday" from paying into the pension? would that not mean that as employees we should be entitled to the same holiday entitlement, so maybe what we should have been saying to the company is for the % of the correct amount of funding the company is paying less then as employees we should be entitled to do the same! We live in a land of so called equal opportunity!!!!!
Basically im my opion we would not even be discussing this if the company paid what the should have been doing the whole time....and since we are meant to be a non profit making company then the pension pot is where any profits should be going!
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non profit making company
Mind you he also told me personally at a bar stool session that he would preserve the pension as "I have transferred into it"
EW less than eight years to go...and concerned.
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Given the very significant impact of our proposals and efforts we had taken to seek to address
issues of cost and risk, whilst at the same time providing and protecting high quality pension
arrangements for our members, we had hoped for a positive outcome from discussions with
management. However, management have now set out a fundamental principle which they describe
as “non negotiable”. Any pension arrangements for new entrants must be free of risk from their
perspective.
This is a direct quote from the statement. I thought the whole purpose of Working Together was to get to a position which broadly suited both sides.
If they really mean "non-negotiable" then I see that as the end of WT and Prospect should advise management of that immediately and it is effectively the end of recent Industrial Relations as we know them.
Pay demand should be RPI+5%-non negotiable or we ballot for industrial action. It works both ways.
issues of cost and risk, whilst at the same time providing and protecting high quality pension
arrangements for our members, we had hoped for a positive outcome from discussions with
management. However, management have now set out a fundamental principle which they describe
as “non negotiable”. Any pension arrangements for new entrants must be free of risk from their
perspective.
This is a direct quote from the statement. I thought the whole purpose of Working Together was to get to a position which broadly suited both sides.
If they really mean "non-negotiable" then I see that as the end of WT and Prospect should advise management of that immediately and it is effectively the end of recent Industrial Relations as we know them.
Pay demand should be RPI+5%-non negotiable or we ballot for industrial action. It works both ways.
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As management have now decided that aspects of a NEW pension are "non-negotiable" perhaps it's time that the union informed management that their repayment of the money owing to the pension fund from their payment holiday is now NON-NEGOTIABLE including interest that would have accrued over the 6/7 years that this money remained unpaid.Then we can look again in 12 months time and see how healthy the pension scheme will then suddenly look.
I know this is a naive outlook but this should be the starting point of ANY union negotiations not immediately suggesting a 2-tier pension scheme straight away as in the union announcement.
I know this is a naive outlook but this should be the starting point of ANY union negotiations not immediately suggesting a 2-tier pension scheme straight away as in the union announcement.
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250kts said:
WELL SAID!!
Unless the company pays back ALL the money they saved through pension 'holidays', reduced contributions and lost interest I will vote NO to ANY pension reforms.
We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???
If they really mean "non-negotiable" then I see that as the end of WT and Prospect should advise management of that immediately and it is effectively the end of recent Industrial Relations as we know them.
Pay demand should be RPI+5%-non negotiable or we ballot for industrial action. It works both ways.
Pay demand should be RPI+5%-non negotiable or we ballot for industrial action. It works both ways.
Unless the company pays back ALL the money they saved through pension 'holidays', reduced contributions and lost interest I will vote NO to ANY pension reforms.
We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???
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250 kts
I have long thought that Prospect had a far too cosy a relationship with NATS' management and believed they should have been less understanding of the their problems and more understanding of its fee paying members' problems.
For us to agree to the company drastically reducing its Pension contribution and then them turning around and doing this is a grave breach of trust and I don't see how Prospect can ever work with the present management again.
I see that as the end of WT and Prospect should advise management of that immediately and it is effectively the end of recent Industrial Relations as we know them.
For us to agree to the company drastically reducing its Pension contribution and then them turning around and doing this is a grave breach of trust and I don't see how Prospect can ever work with the present management again.
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Taking no action is really not an option. If the staff choose to roll over on this subject just where do you think that leaves us for the foreseeable future? Shafted I would suggest. Management will rub their hands in glee knowing that a couple of %, if we're lucky each year, will have the effect of shutting us up.
If we don't fight for this there is no hope left for our other terms and conditions.
If we don't fight for this there is no hope left for our other terms and conditions.
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Barstewards makes a good point...Quote"
We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???"
I to would like to hear the response to that to....what about our mates "SRG" etc.that never had to move over to NATS, how is their pension going to fair????
If we give up on this battle we may all as well get a job down the jam butty mines as we will all be well and truly shafted for ever!!!
We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???"
I to would like to hear the response to that to....what about our mates "SRG" etc.that never had to move over to NATS, how is their pension going to fair????
If we give up on this battle we may all as well get a job down the jam butty mines as we will all be well and truly shafted for ever!!!
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This show of unity is encouraging, however just supposing we did go out on strike even for a day I can guarantee that some atcos would still come into work if the management made it attractive enough.
The younger ones who would sell their souls for double overtime and are in so much debt they have to, particularly in the present economic climate.
The older ones approaching retirement who are not affected by the pension changes and could do with extra money to top up their retirement fund.
I have never underestimated the greed of atcos and I hope that I am wrong but it has happened before admittedly not recently but if the management make it worthwhile we all might be sorely disappointed with some of our colleagues actions.
The younger ones who would sell their souls for double overtime and are in so much debt they have to, particularly in the present economic climate.
The older ones approaching retirement who are not affected by the pension changes and could do with extra money to top up their retirement fund.
I have never underestimated the greed of atcos and I hope that I am wrong but it has happened before admittedly not recently but if the management make it worthwhile we all might be sorely disappointed with some of our colleagues actions.
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Going on strike would be a last resort - we would get absolutely no sympathy whatsoever from the public.
With less than 4 years to go for me, I'm naturally worried about the future of my pension - after giving nearly 30 years good service to CAA/NATS I'm resentful that after putting in all the effort for this company they've now repaid me by putting me in the position of being concerned about my future retirement situation.
Giving up extra sectors, OJTI and AAVA's will be effective enough provided we ALL do it together.
With less than 4 years to go for me, I'm naturally worried about the future of my pension - after giving nearly 30 years good service to CAA/NATS I'm resentful that after putting in all the effort for this company they've now repaid me by putting me in the position of being concerned about my future retirement situation.
Giving up extra sectors, OJTI and AAVA's will be effective enough provided we ALL do it together.
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The CAA aspect of the CAAPs are watching with interest with these negotiations. The concencus is though that if Nats close the scheme to new entrants then they will inevitably follow suit. One Nats, One Pension!
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Min Stack said
This is the problem.Everybody needs to be on board - time to talk to colleagues and explain to them that taking a short term loss will lead to a long term gain.Selling your soul today for a few extra pounds will cost you tens of thousands in the future.
It also applies to non-operational staff - no overtime (if that exists), stick rigidly to your contracted hours - if your work cannot be completed within that timeframe then it goes unfinished.
Finally, most of us have gone into work when not 100%. Maybe a small cold, possibly lack of sleep the night before due to an ill child or partner. If management goes ahead with their proposals do not turn up for work unless you are 100% fit to be there.
Giving up extra sectors, OJTI and AAVA's will be effective enough provided we ALL do it together.
It also applies to non-operational staff - no overtime (if that exists), stick rigidly to your contracted hours - if your work cannot be completed within that timeframe then it goes unfinished.
Finally, most of us have gone into work when not 100%. Maybe a small cold, possibly lack of sleep the night before due to an ill child or partner. If management goes ahead with their proposals do not turn up for work unless you are 100% fit to be there.
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[B]Former Alstom workers have pension hopes dashed again
London, May 16 /PRNewswire/ --
Workers at the former Alstom plant in Lincoln have learnt from a company website that they face further swingeing pension cuts.
Despite assurances from Alstom, who sold the gas turbine site to Siemans last month, workers have discovered through a letter from David Curtis, Alstoms' International Director of Pensions, posted on the company's website that workers applying for early retirement faced a further 20% cut in their pensions.
Workers who retire before 65 already face pension losses of 30% and have been kept totally in the dark over the new plans.
Joint General Secretary Derek Simpson said:
"Workers are justifiably angry about their shrinking pensions packages and the fact that they have had no opportunity to be involved in negotiations on the future of their pension arrangements. Alstom have treated their former employees very shoddily."
The changes came into effect on 1st May and were discovered on the Alstom intranet pension website on 8th May 2003.
Only 5% of the 2,300 workers at the site carry on working until the age of 65 so these changes will make a massive difference to workers' pensions.
Siemans have said they are committed to working with Alstom and workers at the plant to find a solution to the scheme.
A delegation of six shop stewards from Lincoln are travelling to London on Monday to the office of the Alstom Pension Actuary, in the hope of talking to Alstom Trustees who are attending a meeting there.
I just found the above reference to Barrons' previous company posted in 2003. I can't believe he wasn't a member of this scheme and will benefit from it and then joined NATS where he will no doubt do exactly the same again.
Barron has form on taking the benefits and then doing a runner
London, May 16 /PRNewswire/ --
Workers at the former Alstom plant in Lincoln have learnt from a company website that they face further swingeing pension cuts.
Despite assurances from Alstom, who sold the gas turbine site to Siemans last month, workers have discovered through a letter from David Curtis, Alstoms' International Director of Pensions, posted on the company's website that workers applying for early retirement faced a further 20% cut in their pensions.
Workers who retire before 65 already face pension losses of 30% and have been kept totally in the dark over the new plans.
Joint General Secretary Derek Simpson said:
"Workers are justifiably angry about their shrinking pensions packages and the fact that they have had no opportunity to be involved in negotiations on the future of their pension arrangements. Alstom have treated their former employees very shoddily."
The changes came into effect on 1st May and were discovered on the Alstom intranet pension website on 8th May 2003.
Only 5% of the 2,300 workers at the site carry on working until the age of 65 so these changes will make a massive difference to workers' pensions.
Siemans have said they are committed to working with Alstom and workers at the plant to find a solution to the scheme.
A delegation of six shop stewards from Lincoln are travelling to London on Monday to the office of the Alstom Pension Actuary, in the hope of talking to Alstom Trustees who are attending a meeting there.
I just found the above reference to Barrons' previous company posted in 2003. I can't believe he wasn't a member of this scheme and will benefit from it and then joined NATS where he will no doubt do exactly the same again.
Barron has form on taking the benefits and then doing a runner
Finally, most of us have gone into work when not 100%. Maybe a small cold, possibly lack of sleep the night before due to an ill child or partner. If management goes ahead with their proposals do not turn up for work unless you are 100% fit to be there.
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250 that's an extremely lateral and exquisite piece of research you have come up with there a few posts back - it lifts the lid - congratulations. Was he a pension scheme trustee at Alstom perchance?
NATS March 2005 accounts yield up some interesting info:
http://www.nats.co.uk/uploads/natsho...rch2005ara.pdf
NATS March 2005 accounts yield up some interesting info:
http://www.nats.co.uk/uploads/natsho...rch2005ara.pdf
Paul Barron was appointed on 18 June 2004. Included within benefits is an amount of £100,000 received as compensation for the loss of retirement benefits which Paul in July 2004 was entitled to receive from his former employer, Alstom, with whom he served for 37 years. During the year the company provided pension benefits of £56,000 through a funded unapproved retirements benefits scheme in respect of earnings above the earnings cap. These benefits are not included in the pensions table below.
and
On joining NATS, Paul Barron transferred into the pension scheme accrued benefits of £708,000 earned from his 37 years of service with his previous employer, Alstom.
The figure shown for the increase in transfer value in the year excludes the increase in benefits resulting from the benefits transferred from his former employer's pension scheme in the year.
Oh and another gem:
In addition, CAAPS targeted provision, in relation to salary above the earnings cap, is made through the NATS Supplementary
Pension Scheme (the Funded Unapproved Retirement Benefits Scheme) on behalf of senior managers who joined NATS post-1989.
As at 31 March 2005, two of the executive directors (Messrs Barron and Fotherby) were members of this Scheme.
In addition, CAAPS targeted provision, in relation to salary above the earnings cap, is made through the NATS Supplementary
Pension Scheme (the Funded Unapproved Retirement Benefits Scheme) on behalf of senior managers who joined NATS post-1989.
As at 31 March 2005, two of the executive directors (Messrs Barron and Fotherby) were members of this Scheme.
One NATS, one pension?? With tweaks like that?? You must be joking 
Oh and this one takes the biscuit:
During the year NATS purchased consultancy advice from Human Alchemy for £57,000 (excluding VAT). A director of this company,
Paul Barron, is closely related to a Director of Human Alchemy, Dawn Caswell. The transaction is considered material to Human Alchemy.
The transaction was conducted on arms length terms and no balances are outstanding as at 31 March 2005.
During the year NATS purchased consultancy advice from Human Alchemy for £57,000 (excluding VAT). A director of this company,
Paul Barron, is closely related to a Director of Human Alchemy, Dawn Caswell. The transaction is considered material to Human Alchemy.
The transaction was conducted on arms length terms and no balances are outstanding as at 31 March 2005.
Pure Magic 
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If we were to ever vote for strike action and then find ourselves standing outside with oil drums and donkey jackets I would be extremely annoyed at anyone who broke this picket line. Strike action does not go on forever, and when it was resolved how could these people expect ANY kind of courtesy or help EVER again from ANYONE.
There is nothing the management could do to make me come in if we were on strike. I have a big mortgage, a kid on the way so now i need money more than ever but there is nothing attractive enough to make me break a picket line.
As for public opinion on a strike,I agree it would be 0% approval (ish). But i couldnt care less. they are more than welcome to fly away on their hols without any form of air traffic control, as long as they dont fly over my house. I dont want aircraft wreckage on my rockery.
There is nothing the management could do to make me come in if we were on strike. I have a big mortgage, a kid on the way so now i need money more than ever but there is nothing attractive enough to make me break a picket line.
As for public opinion on a strike,I agree it would be 0% approval (ish). But i couldnt care less. they are more than welcome to fly away on their hols without any form of air traffic control, as long as they dont fly over my house. I dont want aircraft wreckage on my rockery.
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Interesting point from Eric, In the late 1970s the atsas went on strike at West Drayton and some atcos who were on their days off came in to do the atsa task. Thirty years later some of those individuals are still around and the "atmosphere" is still very palpable between them and the strikers. Fortunately we are all in the same boat this time.