NATS Pensions (Split from Pay 2009 thread)
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Whether public support is necessary maybe a moot point, however, the good ol' press are unlikely to support us. The press in this country carry a lot of weight when it comes to painting a picture of good or evil. I feel we will certainly fall on the later in their eyes. This is not to say that a stance should not be taken. More of a realization that strikes often work best when you are not vilified by all and sundry.
Not forgetting NATS was still troubled by the drop in revenue from 9/11, which had triggered additional loans of some £60 million. It seems to me (obvious ass kissing management lackey that I am ) that NATS behaved like any business would in similar circumstances, it tightened its belt. Just as it is now with the economic downturn looming and recruitment of paper shuffling office workers curtailed and contractors let go.
bad times = sorry boys but we've got to cut costs.
good times = look at all the profits we've made.
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CAP493 have you forgotten only a few months ago the Tanker Drivers won a 14% pay rise by holding the entire country to ransom for a couple of days.
We would be fighting for our Pensions.
I can not recall anyone ever been criticised for fighting for their Pension.
We would be fighting for our Pensions.
I can not recall anyone ever been criticised for fighting for their Pension.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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I doubt the shareholders will be on our side, and that includes HMG.
A relative of mine worked for a company set up in Belfast (and Dublin) in the 70s as a joint venture between HMG, the ROI govt and a well known chemical company. Six or seven years ago, he was a couple of months off retirement after 30 0dd years service, when the company was wound up as was the pension scheme, and here's the rub, the ROI govt guaranteed the pension for it's nationals, the chemical company walked away saying that the local company went bust and couldn't pay out on pensions, then the bombshell, HMG turned it's back on the pensioners as well saying it wasn't their problem.
Let's not rely on them doing anything, they have form despite certain guarantees having been given to former nationalised industries on the pensions issue.
A relative of mine worked for a company set up in Belfast (and Dublin) in the 70s as a joint venture between HMG, the ROI govt and a well known chemical company. Six or seven years ago, he was a couple of months off retirement after 30 0dd years service, when the company was wound up as was the pension scheme, and here's the rub, the ROI govt guaranteed the pension for it's nationals, the chemical company walked away saying that the local company went bust and couldn't pay out on pensions, then the bombshell, HMG turned it's back on the pensioners as well saying it wasn't their problem.
Let's not rely on them doing anything, they have form despite certain guarantees having been given to former nationalised industries on the pensions issue.
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Mr Jones,
The Tanker drivers did indeed get a 14% rise, however I don't recall the country being held to ransom or any real disruption to my daily life. The press on the other hand certainly took the union leader to task.
The Tanker drivers did indeed get a 14% rise, however I don't recall the country being held to ransom or any real disruption to my daily life. The press on the other hand certainly took the union leader to task.
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BDiONU said:
A pension is a long term investment and has to see through both good times and bad. A good company should make provision to pay what is due through thick and thin.
The UK is not in good shape now but 5,10,20,50 years it will be a different story (one way or another).
If 'newcomers' join a new scheme then funding to our scheme effectively reduces from the day it is 'voted' in... As time goes by more staff retire so the scheme has more liabilities. The level of funding into the scheme is in ever decreasing circles. In 20 years time most of the current staff have retired but there are still some people paying into the 'old' scheme. There is no surplus - in fact there is no money left in the scheme whatsoever as some shortsighted staff voted the 'old' scheme out. 'Newcomers' are ok as they are funding the 'new' scheme.
Tell me -BDiONU - where exactly does the money come from to pay for your younger colleagues pension - maybe you helped to vote the scheme out but if there is no money the pensions cannot be paid. FORTY years of loyal service do receive c*ck all back.....
A healthy pension scheme must always have money coming into it -
example - every member of your family pays money into a bank account each month to pay for medicine for older family members. Each month the interest and a small % of the capital is taken out to pay for said medication. A family argument errupts and people stop paying into the account. Medication still must be paid for but each month the interest and an increasing % of the capital is removed. At some stage the medicine will cost more than is in the account. How does your elderly relative get his medication? The younger members don't care as they have their own problems????
To change the funding of OUR scheme will impact on your colleagues in a big way.
The scheme is still in surplus yet the company has taken payment holidays and I believe they do not pay the maximum in each month. They should be delighted that they are part of such a well run scheme. We are not staring into a big black hole - pay back what was saved during 'holiday' season (+ interest), pay in what should be paid. (They can afford it as management do like to brag about how much money our 'not for profit' making company makes each year.
Stop paying shareholders such big dividends and look after your staff. They are the single most important asset you have.
My single most important asset is my future pension and I will not allow that to be taken from me.
I find it presumptious of us to attempt to decide the pay and conditions for people who have not yet joined the company and who will be joining with their own eyes open. Provided sufficient guarantess can be given (and proven) that our pensions are ringfenced then newcomers should join on different terms.
The UK is not in good shape now but 5,10,20,50 years it will be a different story (one way or another).
If 'newcomers' join a new scheme then funding to our scheme effectively reduces from the day it is 'voted' in... As time goes by more staff retire so the scheme has more liabilities. The level of funding into the scheme is in ever decreasing circles. In 20 years time most of the current staff have retired but there are still some people paying into the 'old' scheme. There is no surplus - in fact there is no money left in the scheme whatsoever as some shortsighted staff voted the 'old' scheme out. 'Newcomers' are ok as they are funding the 'new' scheme.
Tell me -BDiONU - where exactly does the money come from to pay for your younger colleagues pension - maybe you helped to vote the scheme out but if there is no money the pensions cannot be paid. FORTY years of loyal service do receive c*ck all back.....
A healthy pension scheme must always have money coming into it -
example - every member of your family pays money into a bank account each month to pay for medicine for older family members. Each month the interest and a small % of the capital is taken out to pay for said medication. A family argument errupts and people stop paying into the account. Medication still must be paid for but each month the interest and an increasing % of the capital is removed. At some stage the medicine will cost more than is in the account. How does your elderly relative get his medication? The younger members don't care as they have their own problems????
To change the funding of OUR scheme will impact on your colleagues in a big way.
The scheme is still in surplus yet the company has taken payment holidays and I believe they do not pay the maximum in each month. They should be delighted that they are part of such a well run scheme. We are not staring into a big black hole - pay back what was saved during 'holiday' season (+ interest), pay in what should be paid. (They can afford it as management do like to brag about how much money our 'not for profit' making company makes each year.
Stop paying shareholders such big dividends and look after your staff. They are the single most important asset you have.
My single most important asset is my future pension and I will not allow that to be taken from me.
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Surley its up to the union to ensure the facts are made known to both the press and public...the facts being that Mr Barron has recently had a 13% payrise, will be on for an even bigger bonus as reward for destroying our penison...oh, and dont forget the Aston Martin.
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Posters here on pprune discuss such issues as to whether we would or would not have public sympathy and other esoteric and philosophical issues. I would encourage everyone to visit the CAAPS website and look at your personal details in which it shows not only how much you would get in retirement but also how much money you have in your pension pot. I have served 30 years in the CAA and Nats and my personal "pot" is worth nearly TWICE the current value of my home. These are the amounts of money we are trying to defend from theft by mr barron and his "yes men" in the management and government.
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CAAPS-Civil Aviation Authority Pension Scheme in which NATS employees are members
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 1st Sep 2008 at 13:09.
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Tabloid newspaper reports on NATS strike:
I'm not saying that your cause (I am not NATS) is not fair, justifiable or anything, but that is how the media will portray comments like the one you made up there. Yes I am being harsh but the media don't always behave in a pink and fluffy way either
We spoke to one employee named DC10RealMan who stated "I don't give a damn what the public think about us or whether it is fair, my pension has wads of cash in it so its important I don't lose any. If that means that a nurse who has saved up her money for 3 years to afford a holiday spending it on the floor of Gatwick then so be it"
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Geffen you must have a selective memory.
There was no petrol or diesel to be had in London or the South East. I can't recalled the Union Leader getting vilified by the Press but I imagine his members (the ones who pay his wages) were very grateful for his backbone.
There was no petrol or diesel to be had in London or the South East. I can't recalled the Union Leader getting vilified by the Press but I imagine his members (the ones who pay his wages) were very grateful for his backbone.
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ProM
Yes, I think that it is a very fair assessment of my opinion and I am afraid I make no apologies for it. I do not read the Sun anyway!
Yes, I think that it is a very fair assessment of my opinion and I am afraid I make no apologies for it. I do not read the Sun anyway!
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We will have absolutely no public sympathy at all...in fact, those on picket lines should probably start thinking about hiring some kind of protection, especially those like myself in tower units...holiday makers who have spent £x00 on their holiday find out they cant go due to atco's strike over more money (which is how it will be spun)...will not go down well...i for one will be fearful from publics reaction we will get LYNCHED.
On the other side of the coin, we dont need to care about public opinion. PruneRadar (i think it was) mentioned that the govt would probably get involved due to their shareholding...if anything, i think the govt in their current state of affairs would rather keep 100 miles away, and they will do believe me. Strikes such as miners/firemen etc involved the govt, and both sides were battling for public opinion because the govt needed it. NATS dont need it, and neither do we. We will get villified (sp) but so be it, it wont affect our standing, and it wont affect NATS standing..what will do is the airlines losing a lot of money putting pressure on NATS. That is the true battlefield...
On the other side of the coin, we dont need to care about public opinion. PruneRadar (i think it was) mentioned that the govt would probably get involved due to their shareholding...if anything, i think the govt in their current state of affairs would rather keep 100 miles away, and they will do believe me. Strikes such as miners/firemen etc involved the govt, and both sides were battling for public opinion because the govt needed it. NATS dont need it, and neither do we. We will get villified (sp) but so be it, it wont affect our standing, and it wont affect NATS standing..what will do is the airlines losing a lot of money putting pressure on NATS. That is the true battlefield...
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and with fingers crossed it will be the immense pressure from the airlines on NATS that will either force them to negotiate at the 12th hour or get the strike done and dusted in 1 day to put a halt on the millions that will be lost in a day.
NATS will probably loose more in a day if we strike than 10 years pension contributions.
Pay back the money they took a holiday on.
oh, and im waiting on my next bar stool session please mister barron...... i think my local sports hall takes bookings. that should fit most people in at my unit.
NATS will probably loose more in a day if we strike than 10 years pension contributions.
Pay back the money they took a holiday on.
oh, and im waiting on my next bar stool session please mister barron...... i think my local sports hall takes bookings. that should fit most people in at my unit.
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It makes me sick when we get non-NATS nosey buggers sticking in refs to Nurses. Nurses have never been well paid. The wads of cash that DC10 refers to are his wads. Is it OK to steal from the rich? Politics of envy (so rife in this country) sadden me. The issue is about fairness PrOM not greed.
I left the union a couple of years ago but will be looking to rejoin now if a fight for fairness is on.
I left the union a couple of years ago but will be looking to rejoin now if a fight for fairness is on.
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So at what point do we do away with all this uncertainty over pensions by what surely could be a simple move....if The Airline Group wants to reduce its liability, and the pension fund is so huge we in NATS are actually a pension fund with a tiny ATC company attached to it, why not ballot all the staff and and agree to simply buy the non-public part of the PPP organisation?
No Airline Group, no pressure on the current management = problem solved? We take the risk, but we work for that risk.
I know things are never entirely simple, but surely that's a possibility? Please tell me if I'm being 'blonde'!
No Airline Group, no pressure on the current management = problem solved? We take the risk, but we work for that risk.
I know things are never entirely simple, but surely that's a possibility? Please tell me if I'm being 'blonde'!