Ryanair v ATC again!!
The airline is bringing unfavourable and unfair publicity on my job and employer.
As ATCOs we spend the day making "toss of the coin" decisions trading levels between inbounds and outbounds or choosing who will be number one. When there is no operational reason to guide us then Ryanair will naturally lose out.
Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. How much is Ryanair paying for fuel at the moment anyway?
As ATCOs we spend the day making "toss of the coin" decisions trading levels between inbounds and outbounds or choosing who will be number one. When there is no operational reason to guide us then Ryanair will naturally lose out.
Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. How much is Ryanair paying for fuel at the moment anyway?
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DD
Hold on a minute - so we had a "minor" equipment failure this morning - Who doesn't every now and then?
I personally think that in the ATC environment us at London do a pretty good job in moving as many planes as we can as efficiently as possible - What I object to is the extra time we have to spend to make up for the inadequacies of individual airlines who won't invest money in making their operation as smooth as it can be but instead take the attitude that; "why should I do it if ATC will do it for me?"
I am not a management lacky but in this case I don't think NATS are to blame - If any of the RYR pilots read this who did not get a direct today, then I'm sorry to you personally but lobby your bosses to get things corrected.
The press release was smouldering on it's own - no fire down here!
There is no smoke without fire.
Maybe there is a case to be answered, within NATS.
The service, is just that a service to promote a safe an efficient use of airspace.
Its the regular efficiency from management and equipment that may be lacking.
Maybe there is a case to be answered, within NATS.
The service, is just that a service to promote a safe an efficient use of airspace.
Its the regular efficiency from management and equipment that may be lacking.
I personally think that in the ATC environment us at London do a pretty good job in moving as many planes as we can as efficiently as possible - What I object to is the extra time we have to spend to make up for the inadequacies of individual airlines who won't invest money in making their operation as smooth as it can be but instead take the attitude that; "why should I do it if ATC will do it for me?"
I am not a management lacky but in this case I don't think NATS are to blame - If any of the RYR pilots read this who did not get a direct today, then I'm sorry to you personally but lobby your bosses to get things corrected.
The press release was smouldering on it's own - no fire down here!
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slow down people, remember who said this bo11ocks
As a TC North and Midlands controller of over 10 years in the job I am a little bit embarrassed by all these anti RYR comments along the lines of no shortcuts, left bases..... etc
As we all know, if you have travelled as a passenger on RYR or from what you read and care to believe from the press, the company is run in its own individual way.
The comments from those at the top of RYR should not have any effect on how we handle their flights - I can only say I have always found RYR crew to be extremely helpful and understanding - completely opposite to the office bound cocks who produce such drivel that prompted the thread.
I imagine this must be of extreme embarassment and distaste to the crew flogging the Bog Basher's Boeings all day long.
We should continue to do our job as professionally and efficiently as we do every day, as I am sure the crew will do to.
As we all know, if you have travelled as a passenger on RYR or from what you read and care to believe from the press, the company is run in its own individual way.
The comments from those at the top of RYR should not have any effect on how we handle their flights - I can only say I have always found RYR crew to be extremely helpful and understanding - completely opposite to the office bound cocks who produce such drivel that prompted the thread.
I imagine this must be of extreme embarassment and distaste to the crew flogging the Bog Basher's Boeings all day long.
We should continue to do our job as professionally and efficiently as we do every day, as I am sure the crew will do to.
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For cadets there is no such thing as a free type rating even in BA.
The CEP salary is considerably lower than a DEP, so you end up paying in the end.
The same applies to many operations, significantly lower salaries in anything up to the first four years.
ATC if your having problems with an airlines flight plan routings or level filings then get your managers to write to the airline explaining your position.
Start a dialog with the companies and exchange constructive ideas so that both sides benefit.
Without each other neither can survive, nor can we work in isolation.
The CEP salary is considerably lower than a DEP, so you end up paying in the end.
The same applies to many operations, significantly lower salaries in anything up to the first four years.
ATC if your having problems with an airlines flight plan routings or level filings then get your managers to write to the airline explaining your position.
Start a dialog with the companies and exchange constructive ideas so that both sides benefit.
Without each other neither can survive, nor can we work in isolation.
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Do your aircraft never break? No.
which means [at least] a "hold" message, or even a Cnl and refilewatp,iktch
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I'm using Google but cannot find any information anywhere which gives a figure for the fuel and time savings incurred by RYR as a result of NATS control teams giving them their optimum cruising levels (i.e. not those flight planned), direct routeings or shorter routes compared to those actually filed.
I wonder why....?
I wonder why....?
Totally agree with foo fighting. As a Liverpool ATCO, I have always found Ryanair crews to be extremely professional, as well as good humoured and understanding. No Captain Grumpies here! It would indeed be very unprofessional for NATS controllers to take it out on the crews. I don't believe many would in any case.This is a battle between the managements of RYR and NATS, neither of whom seem to know much about grass roots ATC ...
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TC Controller here... I understand totally the frustration felt by Del Prado etc, but since when does stooping to MOL's level make us look good?
We should continue to provide the best service we can to all a/c; dong anything else will merely play into MOL's hands.
We should continue to provide the best service we can to all a/c; dong anything else will merely play into MOL's hands.
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I think this talk of 'taking it out on the crews' has been taken out of context.
The way I see it is this:
Nearly every Ryanair flight these days askes for a cruising level which is different to that filed. Sometimes this is only a couple of thousand feet, but sometimes it is up to 10000ft different. Often the filed cruising level may be FL270 to avoid a high level slot restriction but the crew ask for FL370 on the frequency. They are often given climb as ATCOs try to help. On more than one occasion this has led to an overload of a sector further along the route which had not included the flight at its new level in its traffic volume.
From now on, it should be: you file it, you get it. If FL270 is the filed level, then that's what you get. If it means your fuel burn is higher than you expected, then file an ASR and ensure the company management know why.
The same is true of shortcuts: filed route is flown route.
That is providing the service as requested by Ryanair to the letter. MOL can't complain then.
The way I see it is this:
Nearly every Ryanair flight these days askes for a cruising level which is different to that filed. Sometimes this is only a couple of thousand feet, but sometimes it is up to 10000ft different. Often the filed cruising level may be FL270 to avoid a high level slot restriction but the crew ask for FL370 on the frequency. They are often given climb as ATCOs try to help. On more than one occasion this has led to an overload of a sector further along the route which had not included the flight at its new level in its traffic volume.
From now on, it should be: you file it, you get it. If FL270 is the filed level, then that's what you get. If it means your fuel burn is higher than you expected, then file an ASR and ensure the company management know why.
The same is true of shortcuts: filed route is flown route.
That is providing the service as requested by Ryanair to the letter. MOL can't complain then.
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Not having worked any RYRs for a few years now, I have no axe to grind. Still, I reckon it would be instructive to "work to rule" just for a week with RYR and see how they like it. It is, after all, completely reasonable to give only the flight planned levels, duty runways and standard speeds. None of the above can be termed "taking it out on the pilots" since they're being paid to do a job of work and no one is suggesting making that any harder for them!
If doing a favour for RYR will increase an ATCO's workload, at a time when most of us are pretty damned busy most of the time, it makes sense from a safety perspective NOT to do the favour. If that seems harsh, tough doodoo people. Most of us WANT to give our best and probably do more favours than we should.
If doing a favour for RYR will increase an ATCO's workload, at a time when most of us are pretty damned busy most of the time, it makes sense from a safety perspective NOT to do the favour. If that seems harsh, tough doodoo people. Most of us WANT to give our best and probably do more favours than we should.
Nearly every Ryanair flight these days askes for a cruising level which is different to that filed. Sometimes this is only a couple of thousand feet, but sometimes it is up to 10000ft different. Often the filed cruising level may be FL270 to avoid a high level slot restriction but the crew ask for FL370 on the frequency. They are often given climb as ATCOs try to help. On more than one occasion this has led to an overload of a sector further along the route which had not included the flight at its new level in its traffic volume.
This has understandably rattled a few cages.
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Looks like Mr O'Leary is pushing the 'Noisy Wheel gets the Oil' barrow.
Not appreciated by ATCOs worldwide, Mr O'Leary.
Didn't his parents teach him about playing with others when he was growing up.
Not appreciated by ATCOs worldwide, Mr O'Leary.
Didn't his parents teach him about playing with others when he was growing up.
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fireflybob
No, they're not the only operator who requests a different level. But most vary by a couple of thousand feet only ie. Filed 350 request 370. I can understand these variations could be down to load factors - and that's totally understandable and forgiveable. However filing 270 from EINN to LFOB then requesting 390 cannot be put down to any other reason than slot busting. The stupid thing is there often aren't restrictions higher anyway, RYR just thought there would be!
No, they're not the only operator who requests a different level. But most vary by a couple of thousand feet only ie. Filed 350 request 370. I can understand these variations could be down to load factors - and that's totally understandable and forgiveable. However filing 270 from EINN to LFOB then requesting 390 cannot be put down to any other reason than slot busting. The stupid thing is there often aren't restrictions higher anyway, RYR just thought there would be!
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In my experience no airline is worse than another for complaining (on the RT anyway etc) where RYR differs is the news releases. All these articles acheive is p**sing people off.Most ATCOs realise that this isnt the opinion of the crew.
What I would like to see is more Area unit visits, I cant remember the last time I saw a pilot visiting the Ops room. If any aircrew want a visit to any of the units give them a call Im sure all the units are more than accomodating!
If anyone needs contact numbers etc just post and Im sure we can get them!
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First they have a go at the Shannon boys because they had the audacity to request to work their rostered hours. Now, apparently, we have caused them lots of delays today. Well boo bloody hoo. What the Ryanscare management seem to ignore is that we are constantly giving them direct routes and more economic levels (never the level filed) to save them time and money on fuel. Well, as far I'm concerned, from now on they can whistle for it. What Michael and David and the rest of the middle management detritus have to come to terms with is that they are not the only airline we deal with, and they are certainly not the most important. It's a shame though because their pilots are actually quite switched on and are quite accomodating. But they're the guys that will suffer as this controller has taken the hump and it's back on route for the yellow harp. Well done Michael, I'm gonna cost you a fortune!
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Just an observation, I have never seen so many RYR flights on their planned routes as I have today at ScACC.
At least the cockpit workloads will be down as there is no re-programming the waypoints LOL
At least the cockpit workloads will be down as there is no re-programming the waypoints LOL
