NATS Pay Rise for 2009
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Medway Control
I would obviously like band 5 pay but do not expect it. What would be fairer is to narrow the ever widening gap between my Band and Band 5. You are busier and deserve more pay than me but we are upset at the huge gulf and lack of influence within the union. The big boys will always vote for themselves and sod everyone else and management know this and so divide us everytime.
However you get the likes of ROFFA declaring we (he?) is well paid and an ATCO2 top of salary is bringing home close to a 6 figure salary so we maybe should not expect a large pay rise. It's alright for some. I am on 30 odd grand less than that and I work bloody hard for it. We only get a rise because it seems to be embarrassing to NSL that airports outside of NATS pay similar if not better wages than lower band airports within, and those outside are way quieter in traffic terms. If the pension goes then can someone tell me the attraction of working within NSL especially when you are not necessarily in the part of the country you wish to be?
As for the tired old 'stop moaning and come and join us in Band 5 land' comments, we have controllers trying to do that. They cannot be given a release date for the college because of staff shortages, and the college will not interview without a release date. Another is waiting to get on an area course but because again of staff shortages cannot be given a course. And we are talking years not months. How can you plan a life like that?
We should stick together I agree and this is a put up or forever shut up moment. However band 4/5 boys, when you have the carrot dangled infront of you by management/union, because you hold the majority vote, we will see if you look at us behind clinging to your coat tails.
I would obviously like band 5 pay but do not expect it. What would be fairer is to narrow the ever widening gap between my Band and Band 5. You are busier and deserve more pay than me but we are upset at the huge gulf and lack of influence within the union. The big boys will always vote for themselves and sod everyone else and management know this and so divide us everytime.
However you get the likes of ROFFA declaring we (he?) is well paid and an ATCO2 top of salary is bringing home close to a 6 figure salary so we maybe should not expect a large pay rise. It's alright for some. I am on 30 odd grand less than that and I work bloody hard for it. We only get a rise because it seems to be embarrassing to NSL that airports outside of NATS pay similar if not better wages than lower band airports within, and those outside are way quieter in traffic terms. If the pension goes then can someone tell me the attraction of working within NSL especially when you are not necessarily in the part of the country you wish to be?
As for the tired old 'stop moaning and come and join us in Band 5 land' comments, we have controllers trying to do that. They cannot be given a release date for the college because of staff shortages, and the college will not interview without a release date. Another is waiting to get on an area course but because again of staff shortages cannot be given a course. And we are talking years not months. How can you plan a life like that?
We should stick together I agree and this is a put up or forever shut up moment. However band 4/5 boys, when you have the carrot dangled infront of you by management/union, because you hold the majority vote, we will see if you look at us behind clinging to your coat tails.
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YAHOO......Having spent over 30 years in this job I have come across the odd ATCO that has his head up his arse........your last comment leads me to believe you are on of them!!!!!
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Hootin,
Look at Guernsey.Half the movements,£15K more and less tax.Just got to live on a pricey island.
Nats is leading the world in pay.Yeah right.
Did you know that a Band 5 Atco can retire on more than a Band 2 takes home working multi ratings.
It makes me laugh the the Band 5's are saying stick together,when they have lined their pockets at lower band expense for years.Here the reality is that as many people starting to leave as go to higher band units.That just makes the situation worse for those trying to get out.
We don't need to go on strike.Just wait for the unit to implode,that should do it.
Look at Guernsey.Half the movements,£15K more and less tax.Just got to live on a pricey island.
Nats is leading the world in pay.Yeah right.Did you know that a Band 5 Atco can retire on more than a Band 2 takes home working multi ratings.
It makes me laugh the the Band 5's are saying stick together,when they have lined their pockets at lower band expense for years.Here the reality is that as many people starting to leave as go to higher band units.That just makes the situation worse for those trying to get out.
We don't need to go on strike.Just wait for the unit to implode,that should do it.
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outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by sitting at desks, emailing eachother, designing new and utter rubbish procedures when they know jack all about ATC, claiming everything on expenses and spending literally thousands on meetings at hotels when they could use barrons personal chocolate factory that is ctc..... maybe we should start recruiting oompa loompas?
i do not believe we are the one and only when it comes to the company, but they... and some office types seem to have forgotten that if we dont work, or work as well as we do with 'goodwill' extra validations etc means we dont get paid by airlines and no one gets paid full stop. the respect from within the company for atco's at all units seems to bee diminishing each year, current negotiations seem to be reflecting this.
i know of plenty of people at my unit looking further afield now to dubai etc if the next pay and pensions negotiations go south... but not before they will make the company suffer by giving back valiadations and refusing to train etc..... sorry if you dont like it, but this is what is happening on the front line.
i do not believe we are the one and only when it comes to the company, but they... and some office types seem to have forgotten that if we dont work, or work as well as we do with 'goodwill' extra validations etc means we dont get paid by airlines and no one gets paid full stop. the respect from within the company for atco's at all units seems to bee diminishing each year, current negotiations seem to be reflecting this.
i know of plenty of people at my unit looking further afield now to dubai etc if the next pay and pensions negotiations go south... but not before they will make the company suffer by giving back valiadations and refusing to train etc..... sorry if you dont like it, but this is what is happening on the front line.
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outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by spending most their time on breaks, having petty squabbles amongst themselves, demanding systems that do their job for them, claiming overtime and AAVAs for every single addition minute and spending literally thousands building sleeping accommodation so the oompa loompas can sleep and be paid.
I didn't mean any of that but I am afraid kinglouis probably meant what he said :-(
I didn't mean any of that but I am afraid kinglouis probably meant what he said :-(
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we didnt ask for the sleeping building, and most of us didnt expect it to actually be built. we currently have the same sleeping arrangements as we have always had, that was good enough for me and most others i know.
as for most of our time on a break, yes we have a lot of breaks..... next time you fly and the atco involved has a raging airmiss as he/she has been sitting there for hours on end and is knackered just so they dont appear lazy i hope you wont mind too much. we are governed by the law the hours we work, not our choice mate.
as i stated, i dont think we are the only ones in the company, by all means come get a headset and give it a go.
a few weeks ago i had a long chat with some nice people at their request to talk about P-RNAV SID's. after about 45 minutes i asked if they had seen a radar replay of the airspace they wanted to change or even plugged in..... guess what, hadnt even crossed their minds as they didnt see it relevant... bloody brilliant.
and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?
as for most of our time on a break, yes we have a lot of breaks..... next time you fly and the atco involved has a raging airmiss as he/she has been sitting there for hours on end and is knackered just so they dont appear lazy i hope you wont mind too much. we are governed by the law the hours we work, not our choice mate.
as i stated, i dont think we are the only ones in the company, by all means come get a headset and give it a go.
a few weeks ago i had a long chat with some nice people at their request to talk about P-RNAV SID's. after about 45 minutes i asked if they had seen a radar replay of the airspace they wanted to change or even plugged in..... guess what, hadnt even crossed their minds as they didnt see it relevant... bloody brilliant.
and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?
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Here in Germany one of the guys from the upper management mentioned that it's not the ATCOs (or operational staff) earning the money, the guys writing the bills are the ones.
Guess it is the same view in every company, the management sees the controllers as a overpaid bunch of lazy guys, not following their visions for a brighter future. Even the problems between the 'low band' and 'high band' ATCOs seems to be the same, as far as the pay differs, the whining of the guys that the union isn't doing enough (however the won't leave the sideline and would offer to some work for the union) is like a refrain from the tunes over here.
Good luck for the negotiations, get as much as you can, holding back wouldn't be honoured in the future. But I'm an outsider and it's your 'game'...
Saigor
Guess it is the same view in every company, the management sees the controllers as a overpaid bunch of lazy guys, not following their visions for a brighter future. Even the problems between the 'low band' and 'high band' ATCOs seems to be the same, as far as the pay differs, the whining of the guys that the union isn't doing enough (however the won't leave the sideline and would offer to some work for the union) is like a refrain from the tunes over here.
Good luck for the negotiations, get as much as you can, holding back wouldn't be honoured in the future. But I'm an outsider and it's your 'game'...
Saigor
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Originally Posted by kinglouis
and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?
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You don't have to work 50 hours a week, stop taking 3 hr lunches, going for meetings about meetings about procedures for meetings that mioght take place if procedures can be determined for meetings.
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Originally Posted by Caesartheboogeyman
You don't have to work 50 hours a week, stop taking 3 hr lunches, going for meetings about meetings about procedures for meetings that mioght take place if procedures can be determined for meetings.
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Goldfrog,
In between your meetings, don't forget about facilitating cost-optimized workshops to look for solutions to challenges!
And always ensure your cost-optimized workshops are populated by Information Solutions Co-ordinators and Superusers who have attended appropriate On-boarding Sessions!!
In between your meetings, don't forget about facilitating cost-optimized workshops to look for solutions to challenges!
And always ensure your cost-optimized workshops are populated by Information Solutions Co-ordinators and Superusers who have attended appropriate On-boarding Sessions!!
Last edited by ZOOKER; 9th Aug 2008 at 17:35.
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Casear, tut tut poor attention to detail.
Goldfrog don't forget to get all us ATCO's "on board" post meeting about procedures for meeting with some lovely glossy handouts on the latest gobbledegook. This must be produced at massive cost by some CTC hochos sisters company.
Then have a meeting about a meeting to follow the meeting procedure, all sat on those plush leather chairs mulling over the starbucks menu before deciding to go to your on site gym or flicking the 50" plasma over.
Meanwhile us sub human grunts at the centres will keep making the money so you can come on here and tel us what a bunch of ingrates we are.
Personally, I'd give any non ATCO's (or ATSA's) based at CTC a 10% pay cut. But thats just me.
Goldfrog don't forget to get all us ATCO's "on board" post meeting about procedures for meeting with some lovely glossy handouts on the latest gobbledegook. This must be produced at massive cost by some CTC hochos sisters company.
Then have a meeting about a meeting to follow the meeting procedure, all sat on those plush leather chairs mulling over the starbucks menu before deciding to go to your on site gym or flicking the 50" plasma over.
Meanwhile us sub human grunts at the centres will keep making the money so you can come on here and tel us what a bunch of ingrates we are.
Personally, I'd give any non ATCO's (or ATSA's) based at CTC a 10% pay cut. But thats just me.
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Goldfrog
Without getting personal that is how CTC and the rest of admin/ penpushers/facilitaters/non valid, never valid so called air traffic experts are viewed by the operational staff. I was in the forces and in the air force for instance, which is after all in the business of flying, everything revolved around the pilots. Does the same not occur in companies like B.A.? Now I don't want to be placed on a pedestal but in NATS everything seems to revolve around administrators. We seem to be viewed with contempt by management and if they could operate the business without controllers then they would be in heaven.
The difference in mindset can be read each day on Natsnet. Any announcement from management is rejoiced by the CTC and then cynically put down by the operational units (Vision 2011 etc) Except the usual suspects of course who triumph any announcement in the aim of being the next Manager Airports.
When we got into the top layer of UK companies a year or two back I thought I was reading about another company. The opportunities available to its staff like part time, childcare, sabbaticals etc may apply to some but are not available to the operational Atco/Atsa due to a shortfall in staffing. Are they going to close a sector etc because I want to go trekking around India for 8 months? Would a bog standard administrator be in the same boat, I think not.
Whilst i believe to an extent that there is a role in NATS for all parties (what does the chief scientist do?), we are too top heavy with administrators and management positions forever being created for the old Alstrom cronies (the tie-less wonders!) and the like.
Being flippant we could solve it by re-nationalising NATS and getting the pension direct from the government. Profit? Who cares as we are supposed to be a non profit making organisation anyway.
Without getting personal that is how CTC and the rest of admin/ penpushers/facilitaters/non valid, never valid so called air traffic experts are viewed by the operational staff. I was in the forces and in the air force for instance, which is after all in the business of flying, everything revolved around the pilots. Does the same not occur in companies like B.A.? Now I don't want to be placed on a pedestal but in NATS everything seems to revolve around administrators. We seem to be viewed with contempt by management and if they could operate the business without controllers then they would be in heaven.
The difference in mindset can be read each day on Natsnet. Any announcement from management is rejoiced by the CTC and then cynically put down by the operational units (Vision 2011 etc) Except the usual suspects of course who triumph any announcement in the aim of being the next Manager Airports.
When we got into the top layer of UK companies a year or two back I thought I was reading about another company. The opportunities available to its staff like part time, childcare, sabbaticals etc may apply to some but are not available to the operational Atco/Atsa due to a shortfall in staffing. Are they going to close a sector etc because I want to go trekking around India for 8 months? Would a bog standard administrator be in the same boat, I think not.
Whilst i believe to an extent that there is a role in NATS for all parties (what does the chief scientist do?), we are too top heavy with administrators and management positions forever being created for the old Alstrom cronies (the tie-less wonders!) and the like.
Being flippant we could solve it by re-nationalising NATS and getting the pension direct from the government. Profit? Who cares as we are supposed to be a non profit making organisation anyway.
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Just fed up with all the bad mouthing!!!!
I sometimes wonder why some of the individuals posting here bother to come to work everyday as they seem to hate the company and some of their colleagues so much. There is a total lack of understanding on both sides Ops & Non Ops about how each other contributes to the business. Unless you can get past that there will never be any unity and by the way there are some operational engineering staff at CTC without whom the business would stop as well!
For those unhappy about pay & conditions if the grass is so much greener then you know what to do.
For those unhappy about pay & conditions if the grass is so much greener then you know what to do.
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I agree with Hootin that the company has become far too commercial.
What really gets on my tits, working at Swanwick, is all the notices proclaiming me to be a customer of different departments. I'm not a f**king customer, I'm a colleague - it's a department of the same company so how could I be a customer of that department. Total management bull**** if you ask me.
What really gets on my tits, working at Swanwick, is all the notices proclaiming me to be a customer of different departments. I'm not a f**king customer, I'm a colleague - it's a department of the same company so how could I be a customer of that department. Total management bull**** if you ask me.
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and another thing....!!
I've found myself compelled to submit my second ever post!
Some of the criticism levelled at my CTC colleagues has been a little harsh. I call them colleagues, because I find myself, after 19 years at operational units (and a valid ATSA at Heathrow) based at the CTC. Not to blow too much sunshine up their arses (you know who you are), I have always found the majority of project people extremely knowledgeable and helpful - but that's not the most surprising thing - I think they actually want to make a difference to the operation by making life easier for you chaps at the coalface. TC Relocation was a good example - For those of you that don't know Goldfrog (a firm but fair person!), he worked tirelessly with ATCO's and ATSA's to provide a sound operation. Just as I did.
Now...what about that payrise?
Some of the criticism levelled at my CTC colleagues has been a little harsh. I call them colleagues, because I find myself, after 19 years at operational units (and a valid ATSA at Heathrow) based at the CTC. Not to blow too much sunshine up their arses (you know who you are), I have always found the majority of project people extremely knowledgeable and helpful - but that's not the most surprising thing - I think they actually want to make a difference to the operation by making life easier for you chaps at the coalface. TC Relocation was a good example - For those of you that don't know Goldfrog (a firm but fair person!), he worked tirelessly with ATCO's and ATSA's to provide a sound operation. Just as I did.
Now...what about that payrise?
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if there are in fact some, maybe the majority who are knowledgeable and want to make it better for us. can you send them to our ops room instead of the complete morons with blank expressions and 'i dont know' that emits from that hole between their nose and chin???
i love my job, but as stated by others, this outfit is far, far too top heavy and swelling its self with managers, and admin staff will take it in the wrong direction.
as for relocation.... my experience of it was relatively good. but if you want a payrise for working on it. put it this way, if i wasnt happy with it i wouldnt have moved and my manager and the 5000 above him would have known that. if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it.... we cant get up and go for a starbucks when we need a breather, we have to plough through it and go hammer and tongs to put that many aircraft SAFELY through our sector that would not have been done 5 years ago as deemed too busy. but hey, some so called expert said it looked do-able on paper so it must work....
i love my job, but as stated by others, this outfit is far, far too top heavy and swelling its self with managers, and admin staff will take it in the wrong direction.
as for relocation.... my experience of it was relatively good. but if you want a payrise for working on it. put it this way, if i wasnt happy with it i wouldnt have moved and my manager and the 5000 above him would have known that. if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it.... we cant get up and go for a starbucks when we need a breather, we have to plough through it and go hammer and tongs to put that many aircraft SAFELY through our sector that would not have been done 5 years ago as deemed too busy. but hey, some so called expert said it looked do-able on paper so it must work....
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Payrise!!!! I guess all the extra dosh was spent on that fancy bash that was centre spread in this months company glossy magazine........and talking of fancy bashes I am still waiting for my invite to that 25 year award after over 30 years service!!!
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when was the last time we got rewarded or thanked for our work???
handling a mayday with engine loss or smoke in the cockpit???
actually, i do remember a letter from MP jacquie smith a earlier this year thanking all ops staff for something... oh yes, they stuck it in a little folder in the ops room and no one knew about it......
or how about us busting our nuts when mister bush last came to party at heathrow. those 2 days were a nightmare. but we coped, got the delays down and got on with it..... meanwhile the sun was shiny at ctc, no one broke a sweat and you could hear a pin drop.... the biggest drama is starbucks running out of tall skinny latte's.
but ho hum, lets spread some s***e award for some crappy nibs programme and a whole handful of other things..... speed trials, south west and north new airspace all over the glossy nats news. none of them work and are such a waste of our money.
whats next... oh yes, thew new capital airspace..... watch this space.
handling a mayday with engine loss or smoke in the cockpit???
actually, i do remember a letter from MP jacquie smith a earlier this year thanking all ops staff for something... oh yes, they stuck it in a little folder in the ops room and no one knew about it......
or how about us busting our nuts when mister bush last came to party at heathrow. those 2 days were a nightmare. but we coped, got the delays down and got on with it..... meanwhile the sun was shiny at ctc, no one broke a sweat and you could hear a pin drop.... the biggest drama is starbucks running out of tall skinny latte's.
but ho hum, lets spread some s***e award for some crappy nibs programme and a whole handful of other things..... speed trials, south west and north new airspace all over the glossy nats news. none of them work and are such a waste of our money.
whats next... oh yes, thew new capital airspace..... watch this space.