NATS Pay Rise for 2009

[fisbangwollop]

Reading all these replies I realise now I must be an odd ball.....why?? well because I love my work, thats why, I think the guys and girls I work with (with the very odd exception!) are great, the office staff, the ops staff and even the management I have no problems with, if I have a problem I know I could go to the very top and talk and be listened to....how many other companies could you do that in?? I have enjoyed my work for the past 30 years and hope to enjoy it for another few years yet...all I ask for is that my pension is safe and my pa rises will at the very least match the cost of living rise...one cannot ask for more han that.......I of course realise why I am so lucky.....because I work at Scottish!!! Here we dont eat the kids or stab our work mates in the back....long may that continue!!!!

[Snug]

Right.....

:ugh

if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it..

You've misunderstood me - I was trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to bring the conversation back to the original thread - which was..."Has anyone heard anything about the negotiations?".

[Snug]

King Louis....I think you've got some issues.

[kinglouis]

indeed i do.

so lets get back to pay and pensions.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Because I am currently working ~50 hour weeks to try and deliver two of NATS top 10 projects on time and cost optimised and to my user's satisfaction

Look at your NATS contracted weekly hours ... if they are less than 50, and you are not selling your soul to the overtime devil, then you are a silly person.

If you are doing more than your contract for free, or being rewarded at a stupid rate for anything over your contracted hours, you are a fool to yourself. And screwing it up for all your fellow workers.

[goldfrog]

Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar

you are a retard.

I would report this post to a moderator but you appear to be one. As the parent of a child with learning difficulties I find this particularly offensive.

I'm gone from here back to the world of engineering where we appear to be nicer people and less up our own backsides.

Bye

[ATCO Two]

In defence of goldfrog

I have met Goldfrog and he is a senior engineer who was a major player in ensuring the successful delivery of the TC operation from West Drayton to Swanwick. He was very mindful of the needs of ATCOs when configuring the sectors. Goldfrog is a thoroughly nice bloke who is extremely conscientious. He does not deserve such scathing criticism. PPRuNe Radar - you should be ashamed of yourself.

[BEXIL160]

Hmm perhaps our esteemed moderator's choice of words was a tad suspect, and I am certain no offence was intended.

However, his points remain valid ones. Working for more than your contracted hours without recompense is not wise. Not wise for the individual, as management will expect you to do it again, and you will lose out. Financially and in personal time. Not wise for your colleagues, as the management will expect the same of everyone else.

NATS is now allegedly a "commercial" company. Perhaps its should now start behaving like one, and paying for "extras" accordingly. As I see it, it gets by because of the sheer professionallism and commitment of it's staff.

BEX.

P.S. Touch my pension and I will be angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. (The same is true for most operational staff)

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar

Look at your NATS contracted weekly hours ... if they are less than 50, and you are not selling your soul to the overtime devil, then you are a silly person.
If you are doing more than your contract for free, or being rewarded at a stupid rate for anything over your contracted hours, you are a retard. And screwing it up for all your fellow workers.

Non operational staff are generally contracted at 35 hours a week. I'm also involved in project work (and have worked with goldfrog and I suspect snug as well) and there are times when you have to put in the extra hours, otherwise the project will miss its delivery. Would the operational staff be impressed if, for example, TC or PC never moved on time and all of the house moves, kids schools etc. were thrown into disarray?
I'm not suggesting that the motives for working additional hours are purely altruistic (pride in your work, doing a good job etc. are also factors) but there is real motivation in delivering your product to your customer when you promised. I make no apology for using those 'business' terms, we are a business even though some NATS staff don't like it.

From some of the comments in this thread some operational staff need to expand their horizon outside of their own little world and try and look at the bigger picture. They have obviously never interfaced with project staff and give every impression of having zero understanding of just exactly what's involved in a project. Oh and I do understand what its like being operational, I was (and still am as a profession) an ATCO.

BD

[fisbangwollop]

Lets not get lost on petty squabbles here......we all understand that ATC is a team job, wether ATCO,ATSA,ATE,AFISO,office worker etc etc we all work together to succeed in doing a safe job.....lets stop all this petty squabbling and pull together as a team and drive forward to our final goal....and that is recompense for a great job we all do and protecting our pension rights.........all this infighting is going to help no one!!!

[PPRuNe Radar]

I would report this post to a moderator but you appear to be one. As the parent of a child with learning difficulties I find this particularly offensive.

I have amended the words to something which could be seen as less offensive, since that was not the drive of my post. My point was that people who put in 50 hours or more a week (and seem proud of the fact) and are doing so without any reward, are (in my opinion) fools. Not only to themselves, but to the rest of the staff in NATS, because they are now creating a working pattern which can be seen as the norm.

How can you expect a union to work for improved terms and conditions for everyone in NATS if people regularly work excessive and (under the European Work Directive) possibly illegal hours ?? You are spoiling it for everyone else, regardless of the product you are delivering. If nothing else, what do you think continued excessive working hours will be doing to your health and family life ? Imagine you work 50 hours in a week and then run off the road on the way home because you are too tired. Or you make a mistake in your work, because you are fatigued. I don't see such people as heroes, pulling the company out of the mire, by putting in an extra shift to get things done. I see them as a potential liability .. to themselves and their colleagues. Whilst working in the non op environment might not be immediately safety critical, you can have an effect on the safe operation if you are providing something while fatigued. It is well known that errors creep in when a human is involved in that condition.

If the hours need to be put in to get something done, and are excessive, then there are several possible explanations. For example ..

There is not enough resource, but then again there's no pressure on NATS to provide it since they seem to have people who will work for free overtime anyway.

The person doing the job is not up to it and has fallen behind or underestimated the task (or maybe their manager has). But again, NATS have no need to worry as someone will be along to work excessive hours shortly.


The pride and professionalism to get a job done is laudable .... but it should never compromise the need for NATS to provide sufficient staff, who work legal contracted hours, and are suitably rewarded.

Maybe the whistle should be blown on the NATS managers and individual staff who flout and break European law on working times ?? Anything over 48 hours (including overtime) in a given 7 day period is illegal. Perhaps the Health and Safety Executive should audit NATS NIBS records, having been tipped the nod A few court appearances might sharpen the minds and improve things for everyone.

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar

If the hours need to be put in to get something done, and are excessive, then there are several possible explanations. For example ..

There is not enough resource, but then again there's no pressure on NATS to provide it since they seem to have people who will work for free overtime anyway.

Where do you find this resource, which has to have a particular, very specialised skill set at short notice?

The person doing the job is not up to it and has fallen behind or underestimated the task (or maybe their manager has).

Underestimation is often a large part of the problem. Its often impossible to know how difficult and how long something will be to undertake unless you've done exactly the same thing before. Its not unusual to hit unforeseen snags, so estimating hours is extremely difficult.

The pride and professionalism to get a job done is laudable .... but it should never compromise the need for NATS to provide sufficient staff, who work legal contracted hours, and are suitably rewarded.

I agree but the specialised staff required don't exist. We cannot just magic them up. Think along the lines of ATCO training. Also most management grades don't qualify for overtime payments, have a look at the staff manual.

Maybe the whistle should be blown on the NATS managers and individual staff who flout and break European law on working times ?? Anything over 48 hours (including overtime) in a given 7 day period is illegal.
Perhaps the Health and Safety Executive should audit NATS NIBS records, having been tipped the nod

The records would show, assuming people are booking their time properly. In my experience managers are very aware of their duty of care to staff. However as I said before you may think you have ample resource for the job but suddenly hit a snag, bringing an extra help is impossible at short notice and the job MUST be done on time or you hit the soft issues I mentioned in an earlier post.
Rock, hard place.

BD

[BEXIL160]

bringing an extra help is impossible at short notice and the job MUST be done on time or you hit the soft issues I mentioned

Problem is, NATS have come to rely on it's limited resource, because every time there is a problem, the professional staff (Operational and Project staff) work miracles to sort it out.

All very well for the "company", which has no incentive to do anything about the lack of staff / resources etc etc. No so good for the employees.

Perhaps NOW is the time then to exercise the driest powder in town?

BEX

[man friday]

forgive my naivity,

but surely it should be nats higher managements responsibility to ensure we have enough qualified staff to enable the company to function.

whether it be atcos, atsas, engineers airspace designers etc HR should ensure we have sufficient staff. expecting aavas, or even worse unpaid overtime from their employees, and then having the audacity to try and cheat them out of their well earned pensions is not acceptable.

try not to loose sight and bicker on petty personal issues and slights, what matters is all our futures as NATS employes with a decent pension to live on when we retire, and at least a cost of living payrise each year

as the old saying goes,

United we'll stand or divided we'll fall

[Caesartheboogeyman]

United we stand but divided we fall is very sound advice but difficult to achieve when there are so many groups involved.
In my opinion, Atcos are understaffed, atsas about right. There always seems to be a few engineers about so i guess they are there or thereabouts, but there are WAY too many office workers in this company. I don't think it would hit the ocmpany that hard if we were to CUT the number of office workers in HALF and make them work as hard as atsas/engineers and atcos.
People seem to think that doing an hours work followed by a half hour break is easy work, but when you think of that time when you are working, it is 100% concentration sometimes with constant talking/decision making and planning. There is never time to click save and go for a quick moccachino with a dash of vanilla. No minesweeper, cheking of emails and rarely non work conversations. certainly no radio in the background.
I know this is how offices work across the country and probably abroad aswell but it strikes me as inefficient. if we cracked the whip a bit we could cut the wage bill, pension liability and number of meetings drastically.

[anotherthing]

Where do you find this resource, which has to have a particular, very specialised skill set at short notice?

BDiONU

You are correct, however the company’s upper management is negligent and reckless in that they demand this, that and the next thing without any thought on impact.

What is going to be the next 'big' project? IFACTS is not on time, TCNE airspace has failed, Central has failed, so guess what, lets bring in TC CAPITAL and do a major change in operations in 9 months - including re-arranging an OP room (TC) that was not future proofed when it was commissioned, less than a year ago.

This company fire fights- that is evident in most things it does... as a company we rush head-long from the next 'big thing' to the latest 'next big thing' once the first - 'big thing' has failed. We do not listen to the experts, for instance the call for enough support staff for the (New) Central/Capital simulations has been compromised... yet one of the reasons we are doing this latest project is because we did not resource the original project properly.

We can't afford pensions, but we can spunk 2 or 3 million quid on a project, then when it fails, neglect to learn from the lessons learned.

The company is managed by to many yes men who bend over and kiss ass whilst telling the upper management who have not got a clue about real life ATC that we will do this and we will do that.

We would be properly resourced if we did not continue to shaft ourselves by saying we can do this or we can do that.

NATS needs a reality check - PPrune Radar is utterly correct - why should you or goldfrog or anyone else work long hours because management or some lily livered yes man has said we can manage?

Proper resourcing comes from being realistic about what can be achieved... projects will often go awry and need extra manpower/hours thrown at them - we should have a contingency for this... not expect some poor fool who has pride in his/her job to do 50 hours a week.

Barron drives off in his nice company Aston Martin while those below get shafted.

BDiONU - you are ex-RAF - even though the junior service, you must be used to a hell of a lot better management practices than NATS have.

Fire fighting is required from time to time - with NATS it's made inevitable by unrealistic goals and aims.

But hey, lets do it anyways and in the meantime let NATS screw us out of our pension.

Question - so why don't we give NATS a donation of 5% of our salary every month? Ridiculous idea? It's less than what people do when they work 50 hours or so a week for nothing.

[Roffa]

All very well for the "company", which has no incentive to do anything about the lack of staff / resources etc etc. No so good for the employees.

The day the AAVA agreement went live was the day that atcos shot themselves in the foot in that respect.

What incentive for management to staff to the supposed numbers when we are queuing up to prostitute ourselves?

I do smile at the "sack half the office workers" type posts. I don't know enough to know whether or not we really are over or understaffed in such positions but I know for sure the complaints that would very quickly be showing up on here when claims or AAVA payments and the like were deemed to not be being paid quickly enough etc etc.

The poor old admin staff can't win.

[Caesartheboogeyman]

how many people do you really think are involved in the processing of claims and aavas?

[Roffa]

Probably not as many as most think.

It's likely though that if a reduction in admin numbers delayed anything for the average atco the complaining would follow fairly shortly thereafter.

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by anotherthing

BDiONU - you are ex-RAF - even though the junior service, you must be used to a hell of a lot better management practices than NATS have.

Yeah the junior service, we never had traditions, they were just bad habits When I starting working for NATS 8 years ago I'd have agreed with you about management. However since PPP things have picked up considerably and you do hear of incompetent people being sacked or moved on. Would never have happened in yea bad olde days.

BD