NATS Pay Rise for 2009
Beady Eye
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yahoo@ #55 Nice post. You ever tried being a union rep? Roffa talks a lot of sense, particularly in the current economic climate. NATS is already tightening its belt (look in the NATS thread) and expect to see plenty more over the coming months. May not be a repeat of 9/11 when NATS had to borrow more to pay its bills but a big downturn is fairly obviously coming.
BD
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As was eloquently put by Roffa, the union has negotiated us some very good pay rises over the years. Admitiddley we went from being grossly underpaid to being well renumerated (although I would always like more), but it still took their negotiating skills to get these rises.
They have not been perfect - they would be the first to admit that, but overall they do a very good job for us. If you think you can do better, step up to the plate... any halfwit can sit on the sidelines and snipe.
Our customers are having a hard time at the moment... whatever way you look at it that will affect us... our customers are the ones who pay our wages and our pension (as in any commercial service industry). Unfortunately it comes at a time when both pay and pensions are up for discussion.
The non halfwits amongst us would rather have a smaller pay rise but secure the pension. To think you will get a secure pension and a huge pay rise this time round illustrates complete ignorance.
As employees we did not want NATS to be sold off... however it was and we have to face up to the fact that we are now being run as a business, not a Civil Service.
As was eloquently put by Roffa, the union has negotiated us some very good pay rises over the years. Admitiddley we went from being grossly underpaid to being well renumerated (although I would always like more), but it still took their negotiating skills to get these rises.
They have not been perfect - they would be the first to admit that, but overall they do a very good job for us. If you think you can do better, step up to the plate... any halfwit can sit on the sidelines and snipe.
Our customers are having a hard time at the moment... whatever way you look at it that will affect us... our customers are the ones who pay our wages and our pension (as in any commercial service industry). Unfortunately it comes at a time when both pay and pensions are up for discussion.
The non halfwits amongst us would rather have a smaller pay rise but secure the pension. To think you will get a secure pension and a huge pay rise this time round illustrates complete ignorance.
As employees we did not want NATS to be sold off... however it was and we have to face up to the fact that we are now being run as a business, not a Civil Service.
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Why not in the NATS Forum ?
The topic being discussed is of relevance to many ATC staff, regardless of their employer, since everyone has pension and salary negotiations I expect.
NATS staff are not alone in having to fight their management on these issues, and keeping the topic in the public eye allows others to see what is going on in NATS, compare it with their own situation, and provide independent comment which might be of use to us all in the ATC industry.
NATS staff are not alone in having to fight their management on these issues, and keeping the topic in the public eye allows others to see what is going on in NATS, compare it with their own situation, and provide independent comment which might be of use to us all in the ATC industry.
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being a "NATS" employee in fantasy island,oops Gibraltar, i would just like the same as my UK compatriates.
while we're at it UHP and BUPA would be nice!!!
while we're at it UHP and BUPA would be nice!!!
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that last post is horrible.
And it sounds like the sort of thing a big company would do.
that had never occured to me.
Eventually they would get exactly what they want, albeit over a longer period than would be ideal for them.
If that went through into practice it would be awful for us.
And it sounds like the sort of thing a big company would do.
that had never occured to me.
Eventually they would get exactly what they want, albeit over a longer period than would be ideal for them.
If that went through into practice it would be awful for us.
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As long as NATS dangles the carrot of AAVA's there will always be someone willing to sell their souls for a few extra quid, I guess they would sell their grannies too if the price was right.....after spending more than 30 years with this company and previous CAA it never ceases to amaze me how the majority of ATCO's appear so short sighted and willing to take a few extra bob in exchange for selling their fututre fortunes......I wonder how many will sell their leave in the next round of deals!!!!! So You had your chance guys and blew it for greed!!!!!
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the union hasnt the balls anymore, im sorry but i just dont trust them. they are far too sympathetic to the wool the company are pulling over all our eyes.
we are playing into the companies hands already unless we get on with it and scare the complete s**t out of them.
i for one am happy to start not doing AAVA's... if the union could put that out to all and one its a start, then start dropping extra validations, then if it got that far, strike.
as always, the majority of us would band together and the minority who earn £70k feel desperate enough to sell us all out and get that extra £330 after tax for an AAVA because they need the extra money or the kids wont eat.
anyone approached the union about this???
we are playing into the companies hands already unless we get on with it and scare the complete s**t out of them.
i for one am happy to start not doing AAVA's... if the union could put that out to all and one its a start, then start dropping extra validations, then if it got that far, strike.
as always, the majority of us would band together and the minority who earn £70k feel desperate enough to sell us all out and get that extra £330 after tax for an AAVA because they need the extra money or the kids wont eat.
anyone approached the union about this???
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At our lower band unit,the union membership has fallen to a level,that any strike action would probably have little effect.This is because ''working together'' has had far more consequences than bigger units.The big units are just getting a taste of what has happened here since 1991.
Most people say what do I get for my union membership? Hmmm nothing.
Management say we now work for NSL.Are we going to be guinea pigs yet again for a new scheme.Probably and the sad thing here is that there is little fight left.People just look after themselves and are leaving for the sandpit.Good luck to them because it's no pleasure in lower band NSL land anymore.Prospect certainly won't help either.
Most people say what do I get for my union membership? Hmmm nothing.
Management say we now work for NSL.Are we going to be guinea pigs yet again for a new scheme.Probably and the sad thing here is that there is little fight left.People just look after themselves and are leaving for the sandpit.Good luck to them because it's no pleasure in lower band NSL land anymore.Prospect certainly won't help either.
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when im next in im going to find a union rep and probe about strike action etc.... id always hoped i wouldnt have to, but the union are so naff at communication and getting into bed with management i guess its up to us to ask.
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and the minority who earn £70k feel desperate
If 'shewhomakesmyearsbleed' agreed to it, emigration would be on the cards never mind fighting to save my pension.
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I'm sorry to interupt, but what's AAVA ?
And I guess it's the same everywhere. We could have - and will have - the same debate here in Germany, since our negotiations about the pension is already running, about pay rise is due end of september.
Have a nice day
Saigor
And I guess it's the same everywhere. We could have - and will have - the same debate here in Germany, since our negotiations about the pension is already running, about pay rise is due end of september.
Have a nice day
Saigor
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Saigor
AAVA - ATCO Additional Voluntary Attendance (think that's the right way round!). Basically an overtime shift.
fisbangwollop -
You're being a bit harsh on people who do the odd AAVA just because you choose not to. You have over 30 years in the company? That makes me conclude you are at the top of the scale.. it's more understandable for someone at the top of the scale, who has done a lot of years, not to want to do AAVA's, especially as the money you get for them is not really an overtime rate at your salary.
However for someone who is only 2 or 3 pay spines up the scale, it's actually a nice little boost to their wage.
Why should people stop doing AAVA's just because you don't agree with them?
I fully agree that if, and when, the pension issue comes to a head then everyone should seriously think about working to contract for a fortnight - i.e. no AAVA's etc, but until it comes to a head, why should people lose out? AAVA's are a choice and if a concerted effort to not do them is deemed a good way to demonstrate how the company needs goodwill, then that should be done en-masse, with a specific aim. Not doing them anytime for the hell of it will achieve nothing.
Yahoo
Yes the company does seem to needlessly waste money on functions etc that the majority of coalface workers never get to see, but it does not waste enough to afford to pay us a whopping pay rise. Pensions are a big burden on any company - for an employee no to realise that is short sighted.
I would love a big pay rise and an intact pension - however I truly believe that both cannot be achieved this time round. We get paid fairly well, whatever band unit we are at (though all of us always want more) - the pension should be the thing we try (and succeed) to keep alive.
What NATS needs to understand is that there are many ANSPs out there who are short of staff - just as we are. However in recent months many of these ANSP's have greatly increased their wages etc.
The reason many people stay with NATS is because of the pension; at the moment going to Dubai etc is not financially worth it long term because of lack of pension etc. If our pension gets eroded, more and more people will realise that they will be better off elsewhere.
NATS have a history of being short sighted - just look at the way training stops and start because one year we may be fairly flush with staff, but chop rates and retirements are never taken into account, nor is the lead time to train someone from scratch. NATS need to realise that if they screw with the pension, there will be an increase in the amount of qualified people leaving.
As an aside and in no way am I suggesting this... but if we allow new joiners to be given a worse pension, they may well get their own back when the new pension scheme members are in the majority. A cynical and morally corrupt ATCO might just start 'chopping' for pension security to keep the amount of new people in low numbers. A very possible scenario when you consider the actual way training takes place - much of it is subjective, especially during live OJTI.
What we and the union need to ensure is that we do not get to that stage. One NATS one pension is the Unions own motto, maybe as union members we need to be more proactive and seek out our union reps - not to hassle them, but to let them know that there is a huge number of us who will not take this lying down. If we just sit by and not make our feelings heard now, we may end up having to take a vote on choices which are far from ideal.
AAVA - ATCO Additional Voluntary Attendance (think that's the right way round!). Basically an overtime shift.
fisbangwollop -
You're being a bit harsh on people who do the odd AAVA just because you choose not to. You have over 30 years in the company? That makes me conclude you are at the top of the scale.. it's more understandable for someone at the top of the scale, who has done a lot of years, not to want to do AAVA's, especially as the money you get for them is not really an overtime rate at your salary.
However for someone who is only 2 or 3 pay spines up the scale, it's actually a nice little boost to their wage.
Why should people stop doing AAVA's just because you don't agree with them?
I fully agree that if, and when, the pension issue comes to a head then everyone should seriously think about working to contract for a fortnight - i.e. no AAVA's etc, but until it comes to a head, why should people lose out? AAVA's are a choice and if a concerted effort to not do them is deemed a good way to demonstrate how the company needs goodwill, then that should be done en-masse, with a specific aim. Not doing them anytime for the hell of it will achieve nothing.
Yahoo
Yes the company does seem to needlessly waste money on functions etc that the majority of coalface workers never get to see, but it does not waste enough to afford to pay us a whopping pay rise. Pensions are a big burden on any company - for an employee no to realise that is short sighted.
I would love a big pay rise and an intact pension - however I truly believe that both cannot be achieved this time round. We get paid fairly well, whatever band unit we are at (though all of us always want more) - the pension should be the thing we try (and succeed) to keep alive.
What NATS needs to understand is that there are many ANSPs out there who are short of staff - just as we are. However in recent months many of these ANSP's have greatly increased their wages etc.
The reason many people stay with NATS is because of the pension; at the moment going to Dubai etc is not financially worth it long term because of lack of pension etc. If our pension gets eroded, more and more people will realise that they will be better off elsewhere.
NATS have a history of being short sighted - just look at the way training stops and start because one year we may be fairly flush with staff, but chop rates and retirements are never taken into account, nor is the lead time to train someone from scratch. NATS need to realise that if they screw with the pension, there will be an increase in the amount of qualified people leaving.
As an aside and in no way am I suggesting this... but if we allow new joiners to be given a worse pension, they may well get their own back when the new pension scheme members are in the majority. A cynical and morally corrupt ATCO might just start 'chopping' for pension security to keep the amount of new people in low numbers. A very possible scenario when you consider the actual way training takes place - much of it is subjective, especially during live OJTI.
What we and the union need to ensure is that we do not get to that stage. One NATS one pension is the Unions own motto, maybe as union members we need to be more proactive and seek out our union reps - not to hassle them, but to let them know that there is a huge number of us who will not take this lying down. If we just sit by and not make our feelings heard now, we may end up having to take a vote on choices which are far from ideal.
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I freely admit that I do the odd AAVA here and there, and I am at the top of the ATCO 2 scale, and as the scheme is voluntary I think that is my choice to make. I also do not feel guilty about this as I feel that in last four or five years, our pay rises have been fairly good and our pension remains intact.
I also see AAVA's as a bonus which I use to enhance my quality of life away from work and it is not a necessity. I also respect that there are reasons why others do not want or need to do extra shifts (double ATCO salary, travelling etc), that is their choice too.
However, that said, when it comes to T & C's, pension and pensionable salary increases not meeting expectations. Then we have to look at what we are doing that is based on goodwill and AAVA's, without which NATS could not operate efficiently and would be penalised millions by the regulator each year.
In the short term, I think that the union should be looking to obtain more satisfactory suggestions by the management at the next meeting on 14th August, otherwise perhaps it would be a good time to consider whether we wish to volunteer services for AAVA's in September or October. As the summer PSS which generally finishes at the end of September, would mean that without AAVA's, the September roster would not work and capacity would fall well short of what was promised to the airlines under the OPA.
October would also come under serious pressure. Otherwise we may have missed the opertunity to make our intentions felt and show management that we are willing to play hardball!
In the long term, IFACTS training outside of our normal roster pattern should be considered a no no!
If NATS had been paying the proper amount into the scheme for the last two or three years whilst boasting about profits, would we be asking these questions now?
I also see AAVA's as a bonus which I use to enhance my quality of life away from work and it is not a necessity. I also respect that there are reasons why others do not want or need to do extra shifts (double ATCO salary, travelling etc), that is their choice too.
However, that said, when it comes to T & C's, pension and pensionable salary increases not meeting expectations. Then we have to look at what we are doing that is based on goodwill and AAVA's, without which NATS could not operate efficiently and would be penalised millions by the regulator each year.
In the short term, I think that the union should be looking to obtain more satisfactory suggestions by the management at the next meeting on 14th August, otherwise perhaps it would be a good time to consider whether we wish to volunteer services for AAVA's in September or October. As the summer PSS which generally finishes at the end of September, would mean that without AAVA's, the September roster would not work and capacity would fall well short of what was promised to the airlines under the OPA.
October would also come under serious pressure. Otherwise we may have missed the opertunity to make our intentions felt and show management that we are willing to play hardball!
In the long term, IFACTS training outside of our normal roster pattern should be considered a no no!
If NATS had been paying the proper amount into the scheme for the last two or three years whilst boasting about profits, would we be asking these questions now?
Last edited by AREA52; 6th Aug 2008 at 13:12.
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Anotherthing: I applaud your clear understanding of the issues under debate here. I have to take issue with you on one point however, I have been in NATS and its predecessors for nearly 37 years and I cannot remember a time when controllers were "grossly underpaid". When compared to other sections of the coalface, controllers have always been well rewarded.
On other issues: A pay rise of RPI+1% will still produce a substantial rise for those controllers whose salaries are nearer the top of their 13-step pay scale. How would a compression of the pay scales sound - a higher percentage sliding rise for the bottom of the scales?
On pensions, a radical idea could be to cap the maximum pension payable, index linked in the same way as at present, to say £35k p.a. This would limit future liabilities.
As for NATS saving money by not having away days and feel-good presentations, why oh why has the ATCO Towers accommodation (sleeping) block been built at great expense at Swanwick?
I would love to see a work to rule by ATCO's - you would not get in the car park when they all have to turn up for work!!
Don't get me started on the AAVA's !!!!!
On other issues: A pay rise of RPI+1% will still produce a substantial rise for those controllers whose salaries are nearer the top of their 13-step pay scale. How would a compression of the pay scales sound - a higher percentage sliding rise for the bottom of the scales?
On pensions, a radical idea could be to cap the maximum pension payable, index linked in the same way as at present, to say £35k p.a. This would limit future liabilities.
As for NATS saving money by not having away days and feel-good presentations, why oh why has the ATCO Towers accommodation (sleeping) block been built at great expense at Swanwick?
I would love to see a work to rule by ATCO's - you would not get in the car park when they all have to turn up for work!!
Don't get me started on the AAVA's !!!!!