What are your pet hate non-standard phraseologies?
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"London, callsign request" (on VHF).
I wasn't aware ATCO's dislike this. I always use it before an "out of the ordinary" request, just in case you're doing something, and are not a little startled at whatever I want to do. Should I stop?
I wasn't aware ATCO's dislike this. I always use it before an "out of the ordinary" request, just in case you're doing something, and are not a little startled at whatever I want to do. Should I stop?
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Or, "Ready for departure." followed by at least a minutes worth of; full and free movement of controls, illumination of landing/taxy lights exercise of throttles /pitch levers and finally off we go.
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Capt Claret, Im very aware of the rules and regs in Australia, as I started my flying career there. Everything is in black at white, trans at 10,000 at all times. Set 1013 passing Trans alt set QNH passing trans level. But in the UK It cant be that simple. Controlled 6000, uncontrolled 3000 or what ever it says on the plate. But there is no simple diagram like there is in the Aus jeps. In my operations manual it say when you cleared to a flight level set 1013 and when your cleared to alt set a QNH.
Amsterdam yesterday:
Us: Tower, good morning, Callsign 41AM established ILS 18R.
Amsterdam Tower: Hi De Hi
which led to much juvenile and uncontrolled giggling on the flt deck.
After recovering from our first encounter with tower, ground was equally brief with nothing more than "Toodle Oooo."
After reading this thread I've become paranoid and have stopped using the phrase "radar heading" instead shortening it to just "heading."
Us: Tower, good morning, Callsign 41AM established ILS 18R.
Amsterdam Tower: Hi De Hi
which led to much juvenile and uncontrolled giggling on the flt deck.
After recovering from our first encounter with tower, ground was equally brief with nothing more than "Toodle Oooo."
After reading this thread I've become paranoid and have stopped using the phrase "radar heading" instead shortening it to just "heading."
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Surely radar heading is more clear. On that heading it's your instruction and I'll stick to it.
If I just report the heading I happen to be using to make my track, well I might change it soon, although I'll keep the track. Sometimes I just blow in the wind, I can be so indecisive.
If I just report the heading I happen to be using to make my track, well I might change it soon, although I'll keep the track. Sometimes I just blow in the wind, I can be so indecisive.
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Squawk Alpha 1234
So to say "Squawk A1234" is technically correct, although "Squawk 1234" must surely be perfectly adequate as there is little if any chance of ambiguity between the two requests.
Kiltie,
I know Im not crazy, So I just had a very interesting read of CAP 413, Page 97 of 198 states very clear
Phase "Squawk Charlie"
Meaning " Select altitude reporting feature"
There is no mention at all about squawking Alpha .
I know Im not crazy, So I just had a very interesting read of CAP 413, Page 97 of 198 states very clear
Phase "Squawk Charlie"
Meaning " Select altitude reporting feature"
There is no mention at all about squawking Alpha .
For anybody still awake
, a far more detailed technical treatise on Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) can be found here ...JD
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If I just report the heading I happen to be using to make my track, well I might change it soon, although I'll keep the track. Sometimes I just blow in the wind, I can be so indecisive.
"London, callsign request" (on VHF).
I wasn't aware ATCO's dislike this. I always use it before an "out of the ordinary" request, just in case you're doing something, and are not a little startled at whatever I want to do. Should I stop?
I wasn't aware ATCO's dislike this. I always use it before an "out of the ordinary" request, just in case you're doing something, and are not a little startled at whatever I want to do. Should I stop?
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SM4 Pirate
I agree entirely. On VHF you have already established two-way comms, the frequency is usually fairly readable and therefore making a 'request' transmission just adds more radio traffic, when the idea is to keep it to a minimum.
Request comes from HF transmissions I believe, when all the above is a little different.....
A personal interpretation of 'something out of the ordinary' is a personal definition and a case of making up your own phraseology contrary to CAP413. I am as guilty as the next man of having started to copy others non standard phraseologies that I had heard on the radio.....I went through a stage many years ago as an F/O of using the 'with you' saying on initial contact. I now barff at the thought of it! These things come and go as trends and that is the danger, how will someone 'not from round these parts' understand local gingoisms?
PP
I agree entirely. On VHF you have already established two-way comms, the frequency is usually fairly readable and therefore making a 'request' transmission just adds more radio traffic, when the idea is to keep it to a minimum.
Request comes from HF transmissions I believe, when all the above is a little different.....
A personal interpretation of 'something out of the ordinary' is a personal definition and a case of making up your own phraseology contrary to CAP413. I am as guilty as the next man of having started to copy others non standard phraseologies that I had heard on the radio.....I went through a stage many years ago as an F/O of using the 'with you' saying on initial contact. I now barff at the thought of it! These things come and go as trends and that is the danger, how will someone 'not from round these parts' understand local gingoisms?
PP
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I had an interesting one yesterday.
Cleared to descend FL90, direct to waypoint x, information is 'Yankee' QNH992mb.
I guess MATS would advise against clearing descent to a FL and then mentioning the QNH in the same transmission. I think it was in response to my call stating that we had information X-Ray. The QNH had changed from 991mb and the controller wanted to advise us of the change. I must admit I almost felt I detected a hint of 'I shouldn't have added that on' just as the controller said 'Information is Yankee, QNH....992mb'! I made a point of emphasising my cleared FL and the fact that I had copied the QNH as 992. Probably non standard in the way I did it!!!
PP
Cleared to descend FL90, direct to waypoint x, information is 'Yankee' QNH992mb.
I guess MATS would advise against clearing descent to a FL and then mentioning the QNH in the same transmission. I think it was in response to my call stating that we had information X-Ray. The QNH had changed from 991mb and the controller wanted to advise us of the change. I must admit I almost felt I detected a hint of 'I shouldn't have added that on' just as the controller said 'Information is Yankee, QNH....992mb'! I made a point of emphasising my cleared FL and the fact that I had copied the QNH as 992. Probably non standard in the way I did it!!!
PP
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But why would you 'say anything' about your heading if you are under your own nav; unless asked? The context was about whilst being vectored. "Heading 280" is the same meaning as "Radar Heading 280" so why use the word RADAR in that context
However as a weak answer to your above question: "Position, Heading Altitude" was always a good opener, but I'll admit a VFR one. Somehow Radar Heading seems to satisfy a percieved requirement of a discrepancy (in my mind - but I'll bet I am not the only one). Also I'll report my heading (even if it is not an instructed radar heading) because I know you are about to tell me to turn right 20 degrees and report the new heading - and I can't do simple mathematics when I am flying, so it saves embarrassment later - you have to do the sums now not me!
Still, this thread is about pet hates, and clearly this is one for many controllers. That is indisputable.
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"turn left 20 degrees you are number two for xxxx"
one minute later
"do you need us on this heading?"
"affirm you are number two"
one minute later
"confirm you need us on this heading?"
"affirm number two"
why ask? what's the point? i've explained you are number two, i haven't forgotten
one minute later
"do you need us on this heading?"
"affirm you are number two"
one minute later
"confirm you need us on this heading?"
"affirm number two"
why ask? what's the point? i've explained you are number two, i haven't forgotten
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Chickenlips
Thanks for the advice on phraseology. Unfortunately I am not sure how much good a visit would do as it is usually area control centres that I am dealing with, and often not my nearest centre.
I realise that my aircraft is unusually sensitive to this issue, and controllers are unlikely to know that (it is a rare type). However it is somewhat of an issue with all light piston twins. I do try and inform controllers of this!
G-SPOTs Lost
Not too far out with the 421. However I was taught (by a very experienced 421 pilot, as it happens) to keep cruise power in the descent to avoid engine damage. Ideally I will use 500 fpm for the descent, being unpressurised, giving 180 - 190 KIAS. If descent rate gets too high then speed comes up, and when I do power back I was taught to start the process at a reasonable IAS, preferably level at 3000 feet or below. So far it seems to work, with few engine problems.
High rates of descent close to terrain are unwise in IMC, but single-crew with no altitude select on the autopilot high rates of descent in a busy time of flight are best avoided if possible even well above MSA.
Thanks for the advice on phraseology. Unfortunately I am not sure how much good a visit would do as it is usually area control centres that I am dealing with, and often not my nearest centre.
I realise that my aircraft is unusually sensitive to this issue, and controllers are unlikely to know that (it is a rare type). However it is somewhat of an issue with all light piston twins. I do try and inform controllers of this!
G-SPOTs Lost
Not too far out with the 421. However I was taught (by a very experienced 421 pilot, as it happens) to keep cruise power in the descent to avoid engine damage. Ideally I will use 500 fpm for the descent, being unpressurised, giving 180 - 190 KIAS. If descent rate gets too high then speed comes up, and when I do power back I was taught to start the process at a reasonable IAS, preferably level at 3000 feet or below. So far it seems to work, with few engine problems.
High rates of descent close to terrain are unwise in IMC, but single-crew with no altitude select on the autopilot high rates of descent in a busy time of flight are best avoided if possible even well above MSA.
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Hey Life...its a beach...for us too....just do your thing...
I hate pilots that don`t listen....and ask "confirm this or that " ok maybe its a safetry thing...but geez...
did`nt you listen the first time...? especially after you read it back !!!
I hate pilots that don`t listen....and ask "confirm this or that " ok maybe its a safetry thing...but geez...
did`nt you listen the first time...? especially after you read it back !!!
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Pilot Pete shares my view which unfortunately appears to be only valid for 50% of the pilot populus. Saying "REQUEST" leads to a painfully long-winded ear-ache of RT time. How about one of those sticky thread vote things at the top of this page, entitled......
"All ATCOs say YAY or NAY to wanting to hear "FastBird 123 REQUEST" before spitting out the bl**dy question?"
PS I also agree saying "with you" DOES MY HEAD IN.
"All ATCOs say YAY or NAY to wanting to hear "FastBird 123 REQUEST" before spitting out the bl**dy question?"
PS I also agree saying "with you" DOES MY HEAD IN.
Some interesting points in this thread.
I must confess it is a while since I read CAP 413 but rather than "Confirm Cleared Flight Level" should it not be "Verify Cleared FL"?
As commander sometimes one is not in complete control of the R/T! I have had a couple of occasions fairly recently where my colleague has asked (without reference to me!) "Do you still require us on this heading?" and also "Are there any level restrictions at XXX today?" - one doesn't want to spoil the decorum on the flight deck but not consulting with the commander before making superfluous R/T calls is also one of my pet hates, notwithstanding CRM!
I must confess it is a while since I read CAP 413 but rather than "Confirm Cleared Flight Level" should it not be "Verify Cleared FL"?
As commander sometimes one is not in complete control of the R/T! I have had a couple of occasions fairly recently where my colleague has asked (without reference to me!) "Do you still require us on this heading?" and also "Are there any level restrictions at XXX today?" - one doesn't want to spoil the decorum on the flight deck but not consulting with the commander before making superfluous R/T calls is also one of my pet hates, notwithstanding CRM!
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Check Airman
I quite like...."request".....and...."blocked".
Couldn't care less whether its right or wrong....it works for me!
"Request".....I pay extra attention because you have pre-warned me that you're going to ask something.......I normally respond "go ahead request" so you know I'm ready.
"Blocked".....don't need your callsign or life history....a simple one word "blocked" alerts me to a possible need to repeat or clarify last transmission.....doesn't matter who said it..... I am aware that not all A/C carry blocking detection...and I don't think a lot of controllers understand either.
On a busy frequency, which is most of the time at London [Swanwick] Centre, I have found "request" and "blocked" to be ideal.
Couldn't care less whether its right or wrong....it works for me!
"Request".....I pay extra attention because you have pre-warned me that you're going to ask something.......I normally respond "go ahead request" so you know I'm ready.
"Blocked".....don't need your callsign or life history....a simple one word "blocked" alerts me to a possible need to repeat or clarify last transmission.....doesn't matter who said it..... I am aware that not all A/C carry blocking detection...and I don't think a lot of controllers understand either.
On a busy frequency, which is most of the time at London [Swanwick] Centre, I have found "request" and "blocked" to be ideal.
Name me One.