ATCO's of the world... are we all understaffed?
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ATCO's of the world... are we all understaffed?
Seems just about everyone posting here says their units are understaffed to some degree...
Anyone out there that can actually say that the staffing is adequate?
Anyone out there that can actually say that the staffing is adequate?
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I have already given my opinion about this issues( under different thread) and so far I haven't changed my opinion.
for me there is no doubt.
Lack of qualified ATCOs all around world doesn't exist or to be more precise it is not at such level to disrupt flow and volume of traffic.
how to explain that last year IATA announced rise in terms of traffic, passengers and cargo. This is 5th consecutive year with stable rise .
Further more for January of 2008 is still rise of traffic, but a little bit slower rate than previous one.
those who claim that there is shortage I would like to ask next question:
Who is dealing with this traffic?
Answer:" Qualified ATCOs!"
If there is no enough ATCOs some airports/sectors in ACC will be closed and if it is repeated all around the world then we will have reduction in terms of traffic.
It is general opinion and I allow and believe that there is exemptions from place to place but HUGE lack of ATCOs doesn't exist.
Look at the next examples:
-DFC open vacancy at FI but 2 months later no one even goes to the interview. I would like to remind you that DFS clearly stated in vacancy ,position opened: ASAP
-Canadian ANSP needs ATCOs ( preferably from high density facilities) but only if candidate "sponsor himself/herself" until full validation.
-ASA opened big vacancy at the end of 2006 and I would like to ask them ,How many ATCOs join ASA and reach full license endorsement?
-ANSP of New Zealand also had vacancy for expats and as I know only four (4) expats join their company. Maybe it is not comparable but my unit gave last week two licenses with further exams within one months time. So four is not lack of...
-middle east is especially story. who has ever seen vacancy for some countries even there expats are majority of workforce. Traffic growth is even highest in that region but no need for more ATCOs .
I know that some members of this forum wouldn't agree with me but I would appreciate reasonable answers.
Like- This airport will be clossed at.... because of staff shortage.( Ireland is not included)
And at the top of everything I think that management of ANSP work properly( from their point of view) because they increased productivity without infringed safety.
You may like it or not but figures are on their side!
for me there is no doubt.
Lack of qualified ATCOs all around world doesn't exist or to be more precise it is not at such level to disrupt flow and volume of traffic.
how to explain that last year IATA announced rise in terms of traffic, passengers and cargo. This is 5th consecutive year with stable rise .
Further more for January of 2008 is still rise of traffic, but a little bit slower rate than previous one.
those who claim that there is shortage I would like to ask next question:
Who is dealing with this traffic?
Answer:" Qualified ATCOs!"
If there is no enough ATCOs some airports/sectors in ACC will be closed and if it is repeated all around the world then we will have reduction in terms of traffic.
It is general opinion and I allow and believe that there is exemptions from place to place but HUGE lack of ATCOs doesn't exist.
Look at the next examples:
-DFC open vacancy at FI but 2 months later no one even goes to the interview. I would like to remind you that DFS clearly stated in vacancy ,position opened: ASAP
-Canadian ANSP needs ATCOs ( preferably from high density facilities) but only if candidate "sponsor himself/herself" until full validation.
-ASA opened big vacancy at the end of 2006 and I would like to ask them ,How many ATCOs join ASA and reach full license endorsement?
-ANSP of New Zealand also had vacancy for expats and as I know only four (4) expats join their company. Maybe it is not comparable but my unit gave last week two licenses with further exams within one months time. So four is not lack of...
-middle east is especially story. who has ever seen vacancy for some countries even there expats are majority of workforce. Traffic growth is even highest in that region but no need for more ATCOs .
I know that some members of this forum wouldn't agree with me but I would appreciate reasonable answers.
Like- This airport will be clossed at.... because of staff shortage.( Ireland is not included)
And at the top of everything I think that management of ANSP work properly( from their point of view) because they increased productivity without infringed safety.
You may like it or not but figures are on their side!
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understaffed, us, never!
if you are to believe the IAA, we are the only fully staffed ANSP in the world. oh, by the way, even though we have enough staff, we'll be looking for 20-22 direct entries in the near future!
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A large ATC service provider in the UK "aren't understaffed", yet at least one unit is rostering overtime months in advance, exaserpated by a couple of ATCO,s resigning for jobs in sunnier climes. Colleagues that have requested postings have also been told that it will take at least two years for them to be released! With retirements pending and few recruits being trained on some sectors, little improvement will occur!
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And at the top of everything I think that management of ANSP work properly( from their point of view) because they increased productivity without infringed safety.
They certainly have been working properly when they "magically" changed the staffing numbers at Munich from "120 too many" to "120 too few" within a few weeks...
Oh, and safety IS infringed, and the numbers show it. Just because planes don't crash doesn't mean everything is safe.
Regards,
Robert
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@ ANSA and Robertk,
with full respect to you I know that your posts are more than true. But I saw in my short carrier what really understaffed units meant.
In order to solve the problem ( closing an airport) they took an action(too much money and out of any rules except doc 4444) within a few days. Do not ask how,please.
crisis lasted a few months but now this unit and airport as well is widely recognized with the safety standards comparable to many others. No single person operation,staff are satisfied,enough leave and not too much work. Overtime is unknown noun.
After such experience I do not believe to ANSPs when they said that they need staff but they need 2 or so months to examine CV. Then 2 or so months for interview. Then 2 or so months for results. Then 2 or so months for further process. Than 2 or so months for legal papers. And finally when you arrived you realized that no single paper has been solved so you would spend a few week more out of job solving papers.
This is experience that my friend had with new employer. By the way that company is one of desirable employers for anyone working in ATC industry.
Believe or not ,they told him at first contact: WE NEED YOU YESTERDAY-end of quote.
with full respect to you I know that your posts are more than true. But I saw in my short carrier what really understaffed units meant.
In order to solve the problem ( closing an airport) they took an action(too much money and out of any rules except doc 4444) within a few days. Do not ask how,please.
crisis lasted a few months but now this unit and airport as well is widely recognized with the safety standards comparable to many others. No single person operation,staff are satisfied,enough leave and not too much work. Overtime is unknown noun.
After such experience I do not believe to ANSPs when they said that they need staff but they need 2 or so months to examine CV. Then 2 or so months for interview. Then 2 or so months for results. Then 2 or so months for further process. Than 2 or so months for legal papers. And finally when you arrived you realized that no single paper has been solved so you would spend a few week more out of job solving papers.
This is experience that my friend had with new employer. By the way that company is one of desirable employers for anyone working in ATC industry.
Believe or not ,they told him at first contact: WE NEED YOU YESTERDAY-end of quote.
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If every unit in Europe was fully staffed then the Flow Management Unit in Brussels could shut up shop. Their main function is to redirect traffic from sectors that are overloaded, for whatever reason, to sectors that can take up the slack. When this is not possible the traffic gets delayed before departure until the sector capacities en-route can cope.
So, if you want to know if there is an ATCO shortage anywhere in the world you just need to look for the delays. Because, delays equal staff shortages. The big worry is, are delays increasing or decreasing? My guess, based on my own travel experiences in the last few years, is that delays are increasing. How many times recently have I been told over the PA that "there will be a delay to our departure due to ATC", for whatever reason?
If the ANSPs think that they are adequately staffed, then our friendly "journos" should be asking them what the cumulative delays are at their units.
My own guess is that once cumulative delays amount to in exess of one hour per flight then there will be public pressure for a massive ATCO recruitment campaign. Then again pigs might fly!
So, if you want to know if there is an ATCO shortage anywhere in the world you just need to look for the delays. Because, delays equal staff shortages. The big worry is, are delays increasing or decreasing? My guess, based on my own travel experiences in the last few years, is that delays are increasing. How many times recently have I been told over the PA that "there will be a delay to our departure due to ATC", for whatever reason?
If the ANSPs think that they are adequately staffed, then our friendly "journos" should be asking them what the cumulative delays are at their units.
My own guess is that once cumulative delays amount to in exess of one hour per flight then there will be public pressure for a massive ATCO recruitment campaign. Then again pigs might fly!
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After such experience I do not believe to ANSPs when they said that they need staff but they need 2 or so months to examine CV. Then 2 or so months for interview. Then 2 or so months for results. Then 2 or so months for further process. Than 2 or so months for legal papers. And finally when you arrived you realized that no single paper has been solved so you would spend a few week more out of job solving papers.
DFS needs 200 ATCOs NOW. The waiting times are just another example of management problems which lead us to that need in the first place.
No single person operation,staff are satisfied,enough leave and not too much work. Overtime is unknown noun.
So, would you still say we are not understaffed?!
Regards,
Robert
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@ RobertK and others,
you know better than me where problem lies.
But no one is enough brave to write it ,even on anonymous forum like this.
maybe big brother watch it!
PROTECTION!
You also gave exact examples : USA,IRl,GER ,and I would add next CAN,FRA,AUS,UK,NOR,SWE and so on
They want to work everywhere, or take profit from everywhere but at the same time they protect their market,using next "techniques":
-Citizenship
-language
-Visa issue
-Union matters
- ATCA
List is endless,
And if you ask me what if ATC system falls in some of these countries I will answer to you that they deserve it!
just don't tell me that RDR ATCOs from Moscow area can't deal with traffic, but their chance to get job somewhere western than Donetsk is equal to zero!
I can and do influence in political system in my country.
but I can't change mind of Ministry of Transportation in any other country including open minded Scandinavian counties.
We are ATCOs and we could understand each other but this question do not belong to standard ATC issues.
Best regards,
SINGA
you know better than me where problem lies.
But no one is enough brave to write it ,even on anonymous forum like this.
maybe big brother watch it!
PROTECTION!
You also gave exact examples : USA,IRl,GER ,and I would add next CAN,FRA,AUS,UK,NOR,SWE and so on
They want to work everywhere, or take profit from everywhere but at the same time they protect their market,using next "techniques":
-Citizenship
-language
-Visa issue
-Union matters
- ATCA
List is endless,
And if you ask me what if ATC system falls in some of these countries I will answer to you that they deserve it!
just don't tell me that RDR ATCOs from Moscow area can't deal with traffic, but their chance to get job somewhere western than Donetsk is equal to zero!
I can and do influence in political system in my country.
but I can't change mind of Ministry of Transportation in any other country including open minded Scandinavian counties.
We are ATCOs and we could understand each other but this question do not belong to standard ATC issues.
Best regards,
SINGA
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I'd say on the beach is on the money.
Another good question to ask is if we're not understaffed why are we, ppl on the working floor, giving 120% on a daily basis? I mean I'm working an afternnon duty were we are supposed to be at least 9 and we're 7 ATCO's. What happens if another one gets sick? Or if there's a miss hap? We are supposed to send the guy/gal home to recover. Don't get me started on trying to get leave (I couldn't in january imagine how summer looks like) and, if now feels like last years' summer, how stressful will this summer be? I can tell you last summer we ended by not being able to fully recover in just a weekend -by the end of the summer you could identify a trend of people calling sick 'cause they couldn't give more than a 100% every day-.
I just passed a flu that kept me home last week...I haven't checked but it was probably pretty sh1tty for all my coleagues.
And as on the beach says it's all thanks to CFMU. I mean it's a game of passing the hot potato before you get burnt. Everyday we see planes flying the weirdest routes just to be able to be airborne, even if they need a big detour (example: berlin to paris over amsterdam or frankfurt ISO dusseldorf).
Crazy summer ahead, I'll get my raincoat.
A.
Another good question to ask is if we're not understaffed why are we, ppl on the working floor, giving 120% on a daily basis? I mean I'm working an afternnon duty were we are supposed to be at least 9 and we're 7 ATCO's. What happens if another one gets sick? Or if there's a miss hap? We are supposed to send the guy/gal home to recover. Don't get me started on trying to get leave (I couldn't in january imagine how summer looks like) and, if now feels like last years' summer, how stressful will this summer be? I can tell you last summer we ended by not being able to fully recover in just a weekend -by the end of the summer you could identify a trend of people calling sick 'cause they couldn't give more than a 100% every day-.
I just passed a flu that kept me home last week...I haven't checked but it was probably pretty sh1tty for all my coleagues.
And as on the beach says it's all thanks to CFMU. I mean it's a game of passing the hot potato before you get burnt. Everyday we see planes flying the weirdest routes just to be able to be airborne, even if they need a big detour (example: berlin to paris over amsterdam or frankfurt ISO dusseldorf).
Crazy summer ahead, I'll get my raincoat.
A.
Last edited by andrijander; 29th Feb 2008 at 14:51. Reason: crazy keyboard and spilling defficiencies 8P
