Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Blippy i take it you were rejected from your application?, why do you call yourself Blippy? (employees of ASA know what that means), i'm interested why a 65 year old is so passionate about ATC recruitment?
Blippy, instead of making the sweeping generalisation "in other training environments and jobs it is possible to obtain leave when you need to" how about providing an example? In particular one involving group training from a similar type of job to ATC.
Of course it's possible to know 100% of a limited set of knowledge. To be (ever so slightly) facile, you know your alphabet I presume? You even agree "ATC's must know their separation standards" - pretty hard to achieve that without knowing them 100%. As I said, anything less than 100% of a standard is no standard at all.
I'd argue ATC is not a perfectionist culture - knowing the rules is only one part of the job. A bigger part is applying those rules & there are many ways to skin that cat, some better than others. When you're busy you don't have time for perfection (as in finessing a situation) - safe & reasonably close is good enough.
Of course it's possible to know 100% of a limited set of knowledge. To be (ever so slightly) facile, you know your alphabet I presume? You even agree "ATC's must know their separation standards" - pretty hard to achieve that without knowing them 100%. As I said, anything less than 100% of a standard is no standard at all.
I'd argue ATC is not a perfectionist culture - knowing the rules is only one part of the job. A bigger part is applying those rules & there are many ways to skin that cat, some better than others. When you're busy you don't have time for perfection (as in finessing a situation) - safe & reasonably close is good enough.
People and change (the ones that run the company really) have no ATC experience. The only managers that are ATC or ex ATC are generally ALM's, checkies, UTS and SDL's.
There are hundreds of manager level positions within the company. To presume they all came from a core base of about 900 ATC's is interesting.
I have friends in the RAAF, when they went to OTS they couldn't get leave to attend a wedding in another state. I suppose another example of inflexibility and not the best way to do things.
If you don't want to do shift work, then ATC is probably not the job for you. Part of that shift work is taking leave when its available. Sure you might be able to get short term ad hoc leave in the field, and we have things like bereavement leave like most others but it boils down to you organising a swap with someone else.
Just curious Blippy, do you currently or previously work for ASA?
There are hundreds of manager level positions within the company. To presume they all came from a core base of about 900 ATC's is interesting.
I have friends in the RAAF, when they went to OTS they couldn't get leave to attend a wedding in another state. I suppose another example of inflexibility and not the best way to do things.
If you don't want to do shift work, then ATC is probably not the job for you. Part of that shift work is taking leave when its available. Sure you might be able to get short term ad hoc leave in the field, and we have things like bereavement leave like most others but it boils down to you organising a swap with someone else.
Just curious Blippy, do you currently or previously work for ASA?
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Hi to all,
I have also recently been given a verbal offer starting November 1. Very much looking forward to what lies ahead....
One question perhaps for the established guys, what is the general roster pattern for ATC? Do you have much of a say as to what shifts you want to work etc working mon-fri days only? Or does everybody work the same shifts on a rotating basis?
As a current shift worker I am use to the ups and downs that come along with working odd hours but I just wanted to know what sort of shifts I am in for once training is completed. Or should I say if....
I have also recently been given a verbal offer starting November 1. Very much looking forward to what lies ahead....
One question perhaps for the established guys, what is the general roster pattern for ATC? Do you have much of a say as to what shifts you want to work etc working mon-fri days only? Or does everybody work the same shifts on a rotating basis?
As a current shift worker I am use to the ups and downs that come along with working odd hours but I just wanted to know what sort of shifts I am in for once training is completed. Or should I say if....
MadDog, it very much depends on where you end up. Working only Monday to Friday is very unlikely, as is being able to choose your shifts. You'll be assigned a line on the roster & progress though it, repeating the roster typically over a 6 or 8 week period.
You may not start off working doggo shifts (2300-0600 plus or minus) if you don't have the necessary ratings. In which case you might work a couple of afternoon shifts followed by a couple of morning shifts. Otherwise a typical cycle is 1500-2300, 1200-2000, 0600-1300, 2300-0600, off, off. Rinse & repeat with the odd block of afternoons/mornings thrown in.
Each group of sectors has different requirements due to traffic patterns & rosters are written to account for this.
You may not start off working doggo shifts (2300-0600 plus or minus) if you don't have the necessary ratings. In which case you might work a couple of afternoon shifts followed by a couple of morning shifts. Otherwise a typical cycle is 1500-2300, 1200-2000, 0600-1300, 2300-0600, off, off. Rinse & repeat with the odd block of afternoons/mornings thrown in.
Each group of sectors has different requirements due to traffic patterns & rosters are written to account for this.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Thanks for the info guys. Very helpful.
Nick83: My references were contactd in Marh and I did't receive my verbal offer until last week. So patience is the name of the game as hard as it is to hear that but I'm sure your time will come no doubt.
2 questions:
1.) A question for current trainees more so: Is a laptop an essential item for the training college process?
2.) General question that anybody may or may not have an answer to: If I was to ask what is the overall percentage of trainees who make it through and get a final rating, would 50% success rate be right or would I be overshooting the mark?
I keep reading posts about having a "Plan B" which is useful advice but I guess it would help to know what the odds would be of having to go to that Plan B.
Thanks guys
Nick83: My references were contactd in Marh and I did't receive my verbal offer until last week. So patience is the name of the game as hard as it is to hear that but I'm sure your time will come no doubt.
2 questions:
1.) A question for current trainees more so: Is a laptop an essential item for the training college process?
2.) General question that anybody may or may not have an answer to: If I was to ask what is the overall percentage of trainees who make it through and get a final rating, would 50% success rate be right or would I be overshooting the mark?
I keep reading posts about having a "Plan B" which is useful advice but I guess it would help to know what the odds would be of having to go to that Plan B.
Thanks guys
Join Date: Sep 2009
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q1) No you wont need a laptop, no one brings one out in class(that i know of). Most people type out study/review notes so a computer at home will surfice (I'm sure you could do it all on paper though). There are computers to use at the academy.
q2) you'll get many mixed answers and if you read back through the 51 odd pages you'll find some.
congrats on getting through
q2) you'll get many mixed answers and if you read back through the 51 odd pages you'll find some.
congrats on getting through
Join Date: Jun 2009
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As has been mentioned, sep standards are among the aspects of ATC that require 100% knowledge. Daunting as this is, they are consolidated in the sims. There is nothing like seeing things in context to reinforce their importance and effectiveness.
Australian ATC has a strong focus on separation assurance. This approach looks at conflict avoidance rather than conflict resolution, as well as clever design of airspace, air routes etc. Examples of this are STARs (Standard Arrival Routes) and SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures), where aircraft come in and out of arerodromes on 'rails', racetrack patterns (to help avoid nose-to-nose) and cruising levels ( odd levels head east, even levels head west).
The idea is that were you to drop dead whilst on duty, aircraft would never hit according to the last instructions they received.
You may have aircraft on converging tracks and whilst they may be separated for the short term, they are relying on further instruction to keep them separated - this is not separation assurance.
I understand that many International controllers initially struggle with this concept (as well as Ab-initios!)
The rules and regs form the framework of the 'science' of ATC. The 'art' is the proactive way you apply these standards to get traffic moving.
Other checklists are available at your station to assist in everything from abnormal or emergency operations, to simpler things like conversion tables to cater for our American friends. You are expected to know the basics, but there is plenty of ref material around for these situations, as well as support from neighboring sectors and supervisers/ line managers.
Although in many respects it may be viewed as a perfectionist culture, there are many systems in place to help you do your job effectively, but most importantly, safely.
Ab-initios may be wet behind the ears, but we are not stupid, nor are we blind to the 'horror stories'. Although we appreciate any advice or warnings, our opinions, at the end of the day, will be formed by our own experiences (good or bad). I believe this is called 'life'.
Some have advised us to "run and not look back". If this is a career we'd like to have a crack at, what, then, are our options? Do we move to NZ and pay for a course with no guarantee of a job? Do we change our nationality and religion and become locals in some desert place?
Would anything get done anywhere if everyone decided not to attempt anything because it sounded too difficult?
For the moment, I think I'll just keep on keeping on
Australian ATC has a strong focus on separation assurance. This approach looks at conflict avoidance rather than conflict resolution, as well as clever design of airspace, air routes etc. Examples of this are STARs (Standard Arrival Routes) and SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures), where aircraft come in and out of arerodromes on 'rails', racetrack patterns (to help avoid nose-to-nose) and cruising levels ( odd levels head east, even levels head west).
The idea is that were you to drop dead whilst on duty, aircraft would never hit according to the last instructions they received.
You may have aircraft on converging tracks and whilst they may be separated for the short term, they are relying on further instruction to keep them separated - this is not separation assurance.
I understand that many International controllers initially struggle with this concept (as well as Ab-initios!)
The rules and regs form the framework of the 'science' of ATC. The 'art' is the proactive way you apply these standards to get traffic moving.
Other checklists are available at your station to assist in everything from abnormal or emergency operations, to simpler things like conversion tables to cater for our American friends. You are expected to know the basics, but there is plenty of ref material around for these situations, as well as support from neighboring sectors and supervisers/ line managers.
Although in many respects it may be viewed as a perfectionist culture, there are many systems in place to help you do your job effectively, but most importantly, safely.
Ab-initios may be wet behind the ears, but we are not stupid, nor are we blind to the 'horror stories'. Although we appreciate any advice or warnings, our opinions, at the end of the day, will be formed by our own experiences (good or bad). I believe this is called 'life'.
Some have advised us to "run and not look back". If this is a career we'd like to have a crack at, what, then, are our options? Do we move to NZ and pay for a course with no guarantee of a job? Do we change our nationality and religion and become locals in some desert place?
Would anything get done anywhere if everyone decided not to attempt anything because it sounded too difficult?
For the moment, I think I'll just keep on keeping on
Last edited by enemyMiG; 11th Jul 2010 at 09:46. Reason: there/their
Blippy, any job is potentially one mistake away from unemployment if the f*ck up is big enough & ATC is no different. That "one mistake" referred to isn't just any old mistake (as you seem to assume) but a really big one. We just have many opportunities every day to make it.
A manager with ATC experience is still a manager & answers to a CEO & board who have no ATC experience. Those with no ATC experience call the tune & set the agenda. If a manager with ATC experience wants to stay a manager he plays by their rules & says "yes" a lot.
Hostile to newcomers? Hmmm, maybe. But then again we're playing a high stakes game & must have commensurately high standards. The job is at times challenging & maybe an element of that is reflected in the course, necessarily so.
Are you aware why we have a staff shortage? It has nothing to do with the style of training or pass rate.
A manager with ATC experience is still a manager & answers to a CEO & board who have no ATC experience. Those with no ATC experience call the tune & set the agenda. If a manager with ATC experience wants to stay a manager he plays by their rules & says "yes" a lot.
Hostile to newcomers? Hmmm, maybe. But then again we're playing a high stakes game & must have commensurately high standards. The job is at times challenging & maybe an element of that is reflected in the course, necessarily so.
Are you aware why we have a staff shortage? It has nothing to do with the style of training or pass rate.
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Hi everyone,
I'm currently on course and looking for another roommate, so if you're starting a course this year, email me at [email protected] to find out more!
Thanks
I'm currently on course and looking for another roommate, so if you're starting a course this year, email me at [email protected] to find out more!
Thanks
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I wonder if this site actually has moderators.
Seems like a lot of off topic conversation (including some of my posts) for "Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing"
And I know it gets monitored by Asa/ instructors/ managers but there must be a better way to get everyones ideas, thoughts and opinions out than this anonymous slag site. It's obvious that everyone has a lot to say about a lot of things.
I remember last year finding this site for guidance/ ideas about what this job had in stall for me. Amongst all the bitter and nasty comments there were snipits of help on the testing phase, interviews and initial academy work but I definately didn't get a warm/ welcoming feeling. Actually on the contrary, I got a "you're whats wrong with asa" on my 2nd post when asking what overtime was expected.
I just hope the new people reading this thread take it for what it is.
Seems like a lot of off topic conversation (including some of my posts) for "Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing"
And I know it gets monitored by Asa/ instructors/ managers but there must be a better way to get everyones ideas, thoughts and opinions out than this anonymous slag site. It's obvious that everyone has a lot to say about a lot of things.
I remember last year finding this site for guidance/ ideas about what this job had in stall for me. Amongst all the bitter and nasty comments there were snipits of help on the testing phase, interviews and initial academy work but I definately didn't get a warm/ welcoming feeling. Actually on the contrary, I got a "you're whats wrong with asa" on my 2nd post when asking what overtime was expected.
I just hope the new people reading this thread take it for what it is.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Anyone on the Sept course?
just wondering if anyone on Sept course, if so please PM me......
found 2 anymore on course?
found 2 anymore on course?
Last edited by Captain Homer; 1st Aug 2010 at 00:42. Reason: update
