U.S. ATC shortages; Already a Crisis?
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U.S. ATC shortages; Already a Crisis?
Since we have such an international audience here, I'm curious about the number of controllers your particular country seems to have vs. what they need.
I'm not a controller, but as a pilot, we are watching the number of close calls rise at an astronomical rate. It seems the day is soon approaching when two of them won't miss.
You may have heard that we also have had a heck of a fight over the user fee system that many of your countries use. We almost seem to have beaten that back.
But the shortage of controllers - and the increasing pace that experienced controllers are leaving the system falls on dead ears and I can't see the link.
I know Americans - not all of us luckily - can seem pretty self involved, but do you think it is only that no one has made a monetary link to the controller shortage here that is keeping this from the front pages of action for our Congress?
Honestly too, it is reaching a point where I'm seriously concerned about keeping me from being front page news as one of the people who bought it a really preventable collision.
Any thoughts?
Jetwhine
I'm not a controller, but as a pilot, we are watching the number of close calls rise at an astronomical rate. It seems the day is soon approaching when two of them won't miss.
You may have heard that we also have had a heck of a fight over the user fee system that many of your countries use. We almost seem to have beaten that back.
But the shortage of controllers - and the increasing pace that experienced controllers are leaving the system falls on dead ears and I can't see the link.
I know Americans - not all of us luckily - can seem pretty self involved, but do you think it is only that no one has made a monetary link to the controller shortage here that is keeping this from the front pages of action for our Congress?
Honestly too, it is reaching a point where I'm seriously concerned about keeping me from being front page news as one of the people who bought it a really preventable collision.
Any thoughts?
Jetwhine
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Here in the ME, I would suggest that every station is a minimum of 20% under what they should have. The ANSPs have reacted, and are trying to address the issue in time-honoured fashion; throwing money at the problem. They have that luxury.
I haven't heard of many places in the world that aren't nearing critical staffing levels. The problem being that the management culture (seamingly worldwide) in recent years has been to try and screw every penny they can out of the system. That includes infrastructure, terms and conditions of employees, productivity, and most importantly training. The job just doesn't hold the appeal anymore, so both quality and quantity of applicants has declined.
So while the manager who has penny-pinched the most has been the golden boy of the day with the biggest bonus, the system has been relentlessly, inexorably, PREDICTABLY, grinding to a halt. I know where I was trained, people simply gave up trying to warn of this some time ago. The head hurt too much after all the fruitless banging against the productivity wall.
In Australia, there has been some media coverage of late, as large chunks of airspace go without a control service on a regular basis. Those same managers then claim they were unaware this would happen, and that it is not the result of mis-management!! (guffaw guffaw).
I can only suggest that you guys help yourselves, bite the bullet and stop covering your management's shortcomings. If you can't safely staff sectors/airspace; close them. I bet you might get some coverage (and, thereby, action) then. You can 'act as professionals' stretching and stretching for only so long, before you are really acting in the disinterest of both the profession, the industry, and the public.
Bring those who caused this situation to account.
I haven't heard of many places in the world that aren't nearing critical staffing levels. The problem being that the management culture (seamingly worldwide) in recent years has been to try and screw every penny they can out of the system. That includes infrastructure, terms and conditions of employees, productivity, and most importantly training. The job just doesn't hold the appeal anymore, so both quality and quantity of applicants has declined.
So while the manager who has penny-pinched the most has been the golden boy of the day with the biggest bonus, the system has been relentlessly, inexorably, PREDICTABLY, grinding to a halt. I know where I was trained, people simply gave up trying to warn of this some time ago. The head hurt too much after all the fruitless banging against the productivity wall.
In Australia, there has been some media coverage of late, as large chunks of airspace go without a control service on a regular basis. Those same managers then claim they were unaware this would happen, and that it is not the result of mis-management!! (guffaw guffaw).
I can only suggest that you guys help yourselves, bite the bullet and stop covering your management's shortcomings. If you can't safely staff sectors/airspace; close them. I bet you might get some coverage (and, thereby, action) then. You can 'act as professionals' stretching and stretching for only so long, before you are really acting in the disinterest of both the profession, the industry, and the public.
Bring those who caused this situation to account.
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News interview re staff shortages at SoCal... http://www.10news.com/video/15025700/index.html
Scary numbers leaving indeed.
Scary numbers leaving indeed.
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Dude, you better chill out. You have completely the wrong end of the stick! I am very happy where I am, thanks.
My post was addressed to the thread starter. Is that not obvious? I was suggesting to him that the problems in the U.S.might be addressed in the manner mentioned. I cited Australia as an example where closure of airspace has resulted in press coverage, and sudden attention by those who can do something about it. I mentioned the ME was addressing staffing issues by throwing money around to attract staff (as you point out, quite rightly, Dubai {and to a lesser extent the UAE and Bahrain} has done). The airspace closures in Australia came about purely due to running out of staff. It was/is NOT orchestrated, industrial action, petulence or any other such thing. It is the result of relying on overtime to run regular service. You can only play that game for so long before the well dries up. Instead of using overtime as a stop-gap measure to gain breathing space to fix the problem, it became the ops normal. All the while the staff numbers continually bled away, with absolutely no plan to address re-staffing. It's now crunch time.
Is all that clear enough? In your haste to make my post into some sort of call to arms in the ME, you have made an arse of yourself. I learn my lessons. I don't expect an apology will be forthcoming, but I'm sure the wider audience can discern for themselves the intent of various posts here.
ps. I would love to go into a diatribe about managers, middle or otherwise, growing the balls to lead, rather than just "manage". I'll save that for a more appropriate time and place.
My post was addressed to the thread starter. Is that not obvious? I was suggesting to him that the problems in the U.S.might be addressed in the manner mentioned. I cited Australia as an example where closure of airspace has resulted in press coverage, and sudden attention by those who can do something about it. I mentioned the ME was addressing staffing issues by throwing money around to attract staff (as you point out, quite rightly, Dubai {and to a lesser extent the UAE and Bahrain} has done). The airspace closures in Australia came about purely due to running out of staff. It was/is NOT orchestrated, industrial action, petulence or any other such thing. It is the result of relying on overtime to run regular service. You can only play that game for so long before the well dries up. Instead of using overtime as a stop-gap measure to gain breathing space to fix the problem, it became the ops normal. All the while the staff numbers continually bled away, with absolutely no plan to address re-staffing. It's now crunch time.
Is all that clear enough? In your haste to make my post into some sort of call to arms in the ME, you have made an arse of yourself. I learn my lessons. I don't expect an apology will be forthcoming, but I'm sure the wider audience can discern for themselves the intent of various posts here.
ps. I would love to go into a diatribe about managers, middle or otherwise, growing the balls to lead, rather than just "manage". I'll save that for a more appropriate time and place.
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Bat39
If it wouldn't be too much trouble...could you possibly stick to the thread and not go off on another one of your Aussie bashing excercises?
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I completely understood what ferris was getting at, without all the subtext that you have picked up on.
Must be fun around the coffee urn in OBBI...
Perhaps you could again be like your namesake...with thanks to Wikipedia
"The Bateleur is generally silent, but on occasions it produces a variety of barks and screams."
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I completely understood what ferris was getting at, without all the subtext that you have picked up on.
Must be fun around the coffee urn in OBBI...
Perhaps you could again be like your namesake...with thanks to Wikipedia
"The Bateleur is generally silent, but on occasions it produces a variety of barks and screams."
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Sorry, but I just have to respond to your drivel, Batelco39.
No-one, absolutely no-one made this personal, except YOU. I don't care whether the wider audience listens to me, ignores me or whatever. Merely pointing out the wider audience can make their minds up about who was contributing to the threadstarters call for thoughts, and who was taking cheap shots and bemoaning that there is nothing that can be done!!
"No slight was intended"..could've fooled me. Perhaps your bitterness and lack of ability to climb the greasy pole is getting to YOU? BTW, you don't actually consider yourself management, do you?
Who is responsible for the culture of a workplace? The MANAGEMENT. Never, ever, denied I was a manager basher- but name one time when it wasn't warranted? Classic example you quote- rare for the managers actually accept responsibility for the work environment, except when it's going well! Nevertheless, still their responsibility.
And this gem...
I think I bashed loudly enough and long enough within earshot. As you said, where did it get me? There are plenty of people who do that in any workplace, and where does it get them? Look at the state of US ATC staffing. Do some research. How much more can NATCA do, how loudly, how often? How much more can the troops do to try and 'help' the management DO SOMETHING?
You really have been out here too long. In the wider world, it's not a matter of "standing together", the staffing levels are so critical that service can't be provided in places such as Australia. No "standing together" required.
That's the point, fool. THERE ISNT A QUEUE OUT THERE. Maybe if you had a look around, find someplace yourself where your jaded, bitter, management-apologistic stress might wash away. "Soft green grass, soft green grass". Jobs all over the world.
Take a moment to read back over the course of this thread, and see what a sad ba$tard you've become (even your countrymen say so).
Thanks DD- now back to the thread.....
No-one, absolutely no-one made this personal, except YOU. I don't care whether the wider audience listens to me, ignores me or whatever. Merely pointing out the wider audience can make their minds up about who was contributing to the threadstarters call for thoughts, and who was taking cheap shots and bemoaning that there is nothing that can be done!!
"No slight was intended"..could've fooled me. Perhaps your bitterness and lack of ability to climb the greasy pole is getting to YOU? BTW, you don't actually consider yourself management, do you?
We've been a happy lot here where we work for a while now so really don't need that nonsense to cause the type of unhappy and suspicious work environment that you had in the UAE.
And this gem...
the point I'm trying to make is that they have more chance of succeeding with your honest help rather than you just bagging them on anonymous forums and when they're out of earshot.
There are very few circumstances where ATC's have stood together in a solid unit to achieve anything.
There is always someone in our profession who is willing to sell his soul for a little more.
Take a moment to read back over the course of this thread, and see what a sad ba$tard you've become (even your countrymen say so).
Thanks DD- now back to the thread.....
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Yeah, well edit away. But your remarks were fairly and squarely aimed.
On topic
I'm not sure how many times this has to be pointed out. I am certainly not suggesting this is the way to go. I am pointing out that in ATC, there is scope for 'stretching' of staff. This may take the form of operating with less than a full compliment on a shift (so that breaks are less), not providing leave (annual, long service etc) to actually having 'ghost' lines on a roster, filled by overtime (and many other forms of stretching). This 'stretching' only works with staff complicity. They can only be stretched so far, then they 'break'. I think that at numerous locations, that breaking point has been reached. Some managements are reacting- as in the ME, where salary increases have attracted bodies- some are not. Hence the threadstarter's lament about things in the US. When the controllers there have had enough of the excessive overtime, and the staffing becomes unsafe, then there comes a time when the professional thing to do is close services. It gets media attention, and isn't an 'individual action'. I think we've moved beyond the realms of industrial action in a lot of places.
There are managements who are actively looking to attract staff- Germany, Ireland, Eurocontrol, HK, the ME etc. The US isn't. Yet. As the hiring of experienced controllers is a rob-peter-to-pay-paul exercise anyway, I'll be interested to see when a management tackles the underlying problem.
As an aside: To all those 'managers' who rammed the 'global economy' down our throats (especially at EBA time in oz!!), well the chickens are roosting. Market forces, fellas, simple as that. Skill shortage= salary increase. Pay up. It was, after all, your idea.
On topic
It has never been a satisfactory solution from a individual coalface ATC to shut down a sector or "go-slow" in response to a perception that management is not providing enough staff.
There are managements who are actively looking to attract staff- Germany, Ireland, Eurocontrol, HK, the ME etc. The US isn't. Yet. As the hiring of experienced controllers is a rob-peter-to-pay-paul exercise anyway, I'll be interested to see when a management tackles the underlying problem.
As an aside: To all those 'managers' who rammed the 'global economy' down our throats (especially at EBA time in oz!!), well the chickens are roosting. Market forces, fellas, simple as that. Skill shortage= salary increase. Pay up. It was, after all, your idea.
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get a life
DD and Ferris,
have to agree with you here, Batleur seems to have a chip on shoulder and a distinct distaste for Aussies. You kaffas are all the same I hate to say it and part of reason why it has taken so long for salaries to rise from the mediocre base they were at, because you lot would work for next to nothing (bit like mercenaries really) and would never rock the boat for fear of being sent back to good old SA
get a life bucko, and chill out and f
k off.
have to agree with you here, Batleur seems to have a chip on shoulder and a distinct distaste for Aussies. You kaffas are all the same I hate to say it and part of reason why it has taken so long for salaries to rise from the mediocre base they were at, because you lot would work for next to nothing (bit like mercenaries really) and would never rock the boat for fear of being sent back to good old SA
get a life bucko, and chill out and f
k off.
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ATC shortages
I started this thread and honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing what the jousting is about. Part of the reason we're in the mess we are - as Ferris pointed out - is that we won't all stand together. Perhaps the comments are germaine to that perspective.
Of course, if the posts are offensive, then you as moderator are certainly on track to deep six them.
Just my 2 cents.
Jetwhine
Of course, if the posts are offensive, then you as moderator are certainly on track to deep six them.
Just my 2 cents.
Jetwhine
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There are exceptions, but I believe in the saying that "You get what you pay for".. Where I work we are losing "CONTROLLERS" with 20 plus years experience and many could have remained up to five more years. But due to money...yes money (no chance of raises or movement to larger facilities for a raise) they are retiring and getting yearly raises in their retirement pay.
And me with 4 years to go till retirement must train daily personnel that have no or very little aviation experience. They expect theses trainees to certify in half the time and are cutting corners to make the numbers look good. I risk my career to allow a trainee to work on the radar when he or she should be seasoning on the assist position that they just certified on. I know that the pilots of this forum must notice the difference in service provided due to the increase in training at US facilities. I for one would like to apologize to the pilots that are delayed or poorly handled during theses difficult times.
CZHU
And me with 4 years to go till retirement must train daily personnel that have no or very little aviation experience. They expect theses trainees to certify in half the time and are cutting corners to make the numbers look good. I risk my career to allow a trainee to work on the radar when he or she should be seasoning on the assist position that they just certified on. I know that the pilots of this forum must notice the difference in service provided due to the increase in training at US facilities. I for one would like to apologize to the pilots that are delayed or poorly handled during theses difficult times.
CZHU
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In Australia we to are short of controllers. The people who could have made a difference chose instead to ignore the situation until it has become critical.
Almost daily closure of airspace occurs due to the inability to have people come in to prop up the system.
Many Oz controllers are looking overseas after becoming dissatisfied with the current situation, those that are at retirement age are just choosing to leave. JW - i think the situation is universal as the only time you notice ATC is when it is not there!
Almost daily closure of airspace occurs due to the inability to have people come in to prop up the system.
Many Oz controllers are looking overseas after becoming dissatisfied with the current situation, those that are at retirement age are just choosing to leave. JW - i think the situation is universal as the only time you notice ATC is when it is not there!
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europe
We are also shortstaffed in general too. I work at eurocontrol and,luckily, management has realised and we're trying to cacth up with demand. But next few years are going to be interesting (pardon the metaphore). I know DFS are also on the ball trying to hire direct entry controllers as they stopped some time ago with their ab-initio intake (we did lower it a lot and now we are trying to raise it again but unfortunately it'll take time before that has an effect: in average we turn someone from scratch into a controller in over 2 and half years)
Read some time ago overall europe lacks a 20% of controllers (unevenly spread through, some places more,some less) but in general was a combination of bean counting and the post 9/11 predictions (it wouldn't go up so much, the ciclycal trend in aviation till then, etc...)
Back to the oven now,
A.
Read some time ago overall europe lacks a 20% of controllers (unevenly spread through, some places more,some less) but in general was a combination of bean counting and the post 9/11 predictions (it wouldn't go up so much, the ciclycal trend in aviation till then, etc...)
Back to the oven now,
A.
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Staffing
Maybe if the US opened the door to foriegn controllers they might be able to get some experience back into the FAA to replace what they are currently losing at a rapid pace.
Maybe if Eurocontrol did not discriminate against controllers from outside the EU (aussies, kiwis, canuks, seeth eefricans and others) they might also be able to stabilish their staffing levels and bring in some experience to their control centres.
Maybe if Hong Kong did not discriminate against experienced controllers (40+) then they might be able to bolster their controller numbers in the short term.
Yes, it takes at least 2 years to fully train an ab-intio student to licensed controller, preferable longer. In the past some companies have reduced ab-initio intake in an effort to reduce costs, looks good for the companies profits in the short term.
Fatal in the long term when they realise that they have a bunch of retirees coming up and they need replacement controllers, quickly, right now, where are they ?? 2 years to train some replacements, what, are you kidding me ??
But thats another story about HR and Bean-counters
Maybe if Eurocontrol did not discriminate against controllers from outside the EU (aussies, kiwis, canuks, seeth eefricans and others) they might also be able to stabilish their staffing levels and bring in some experience to their control centres.
Maybe if Hong Kong did not discriminate against experienced controllers (40+) then they might be able to bolster their controller numbers in the short term.
Yes, it takes at least 2 years to fully train an ab-intio student to licensed controller, preferable longer. In the past some companies have reduced ab-initio intake in an effort to reduce costs, looks good for the companies profits in the short term.
Fatal in the long term when they realise that they have a bunch of retirees coming up and they need replacement controllers, quickly, right now, where are they ?? 2 years to train some replacements, what, are you kidding me ??
But thats another story about HR and Bean-counters
Last edited by RustyNail; 15th Jan 2008 at 16:27. Reason: Additions
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DFS
Well, it does stand for Deutches Flugsicherung but basically it is the german ATC provider.
Yes, granted, they have tried/would love to privatize fully even though the state still has control and they'd love to be able to take over europe (please leave aside the easy jokes).
Saint google and some knowledge of german should take you further
A.
Yes, granted, they have tried/would love to privatize fully even though the state still has control and they'd love to be able to take over europe (please leave aside the easy jokes).
Saint google and some knowledge of german should take you further
A.