USA & 250 below 10
the lunatic fringe
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USA & 250 below 10
A question for our USA cousins.
A few days ago, airborne from LAX in a 747-400. On handover to departure they said "speed restriction 280 kts". That is excellent news for us as we can climb clean at 280kts.
As we levelled at our cleared altitude of 9000' the controller gave us a frequency change, and said "resume normal speed".
Now that had me foxed. "Normal" speed is 250 below 10. So should I have slowed down and put the flaps out? !! Or.... Maintain 280 kts, or... accelerate to en route climb.
speed of 330kts?
The response of, "well ask ATC" was at the time not appropriate. The frequency was very very busy. I just stuck to 280kts and hoped for the best.
Any thoughts?
A few days ago, airborne from LAX in a 747-400. On handover to departure they said "speed restriction 280 kts". That is excellent news for us as we can climb clean at 280kts.
As we levelled at our cleared altitude of 9000' the controller gave us a frequency change, and said "resume normal speed".
Now that had me foxed. "Normal" speed is 250 below 10. So should I have slowed down and put the flaps out? !! Or.... Maintain 280 kts, or... accelerate to en route climb.
speed of 330kts?
The response of, "well ask ATC" was at the time not appropriate. The frequency was very very busy. I just stuck to 280kts and hoped for the best.
Any thoughts?
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L337,
I can't speak for LAX but here at IAH and in most of the US the FARs require a speed of 250kts below 10,000, and a controller can not delete that without a waiver which LAX may have, I'll check for you. We had a waiver a few years ago but departure control used set phraseology to delete the speed. That experiment (the waiver) did not work out here due to overtake issues and other safety issues.
Regards, CZHU
I can't speak for LAX but here at IAH and in most of the US the FARs require a speed of 250kts below 10,000, and a controller can not delete that without a waiver which LAX may have, I'll check for you. We had a waiver a few years ago but departure control used set phraseology to delete the speed. That experiment (the waiver) did not work out here due to overtake issues and other safety issues.
Regards, CZHU
I fly out of LAX regularly, get that all the time. As mentioned, ATC cannot give a waiver to exceed 250Kts below 10,000, only the "administrator" can.
Out of 10,000 accelerate to 280Kts.
Yes, it can be confusing.
This has come up here on pprune before, perhaps a search can provide a link to the discussion.
Out of 10,000 accelerate to 280Kts.
Yes, it can be confusing.
This has come up here on pprune before, perhaps a search can provide a link to the discussion.
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'resume normal speed' means that ATC has no speed restrictions and you can resume your normal operating speed. In this case, because of the blanket 250/10 speed restriction, it is confusing, but it wouldn't make any sense for them to slow you down for 1000ft by issuing that instruction. 'Cancel ATC speed restrictions' may be better wording, but both instructions essentially mean the same thing.
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Here are two responses that I received from LA approach controllers, hope it helps.
czhu
!. Departures over GMN are issued 250kts to the BUR area. Departures over TRM are issued 250kts, then 280kts by Newport, required by ZLA (center).
Heavies are issued "do not exceed 280kts" - I believe because we were told some heavies don't perform well at 250kts, or some such thing. There is no waiver for others to exceed 250 below 10K and all non heavies are issued "maintain 250kts" because the Burbank area required it.
Some controllers issued, "Maintain speed 280 knots" rather than "Do not exceed 280 knots" and I remember hearing the question of whether they could go faster below 10K. I also remember getting jets out of 5K for 13K working Newport, where you give them Maintain speed 2-8-0", and got the same question.
.....................................................
1. No one in field facilities anywhere has the authority to waive 91.117. The catch is subpara (d) of 91.117, which reads:
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
czhu
!. Departures over GMN are issued 250kts to the BUR area. Departures over TRM are issued 250kts, then 280kts by Newport, required by ZLA (center).
Heavies are issued "do not exceed 280kts" - I believe because we were told some heavies don't perform well at 250kts, or some such thing. There is no waiver for others to exceed 250 below 10K and all non heavies are issued "maintain 250kts" because the Burbank area required it.
Some controllers issued, "Maintain speed 280 knots" rather than "Do not exceed 280 knots" and I remember hearing the question of whether they could go faster below 10K. I also remember getting jets out of 5K for 13K working Newport, where you give them Maintain speed 2-8-0", and got the same question.
.....................................................
1. No one in field facilities anywhere has the authority to waive 91.117. The catch is subpara (d) of 91.117, which reads:
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
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1. No one in field facilities anywhere has the authority to waive 91.117. The catch is subpara (d) of 91.117, which reads:
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
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In Canadian airspace, the 250 blo10 applies only on descent. On departure, provided you have filed higher than 10, you can go fast anytime. Exceptions, which DO restrict a departure to 250 blo 10 (YVR YYZ, I believe) are on the SID.
For what all that's worth....
For what all that's worth....
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Hold West,
You may not be a socal controller but your response was correct. I wish we could get rid of the 250kts below 10 requirement, and just let the controller assign a speed if needed......Regards
You may not be a socal controller but your response was correct. I wish we could get rid of the 250kts below 10 requirement, and just let the controller assign a speed if needed......Regards
the lunatic fringe
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Many thanks for the insight, and information. Especially "controllerzhu" and the word from the horses mouth.
With regard to the
Typically airborne from LAX, for LHR a -400 will not get clean until about 270kts. So in the climb at 250kts you are climbing with a shed load of flap out. 280kts lets us get clean, and efficient.
With regard to the
heavies are issued "do not exceed 280kts" - I believe because we were told some heavies don't perform well at 250kts, or some such thing.
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Several years ago IAH tested the "no speed limit" of 250 kts below 10k. It was well received by the domestic as we well as the foreign carriers, except one. They made it a safety issue with ALPA and POOF, it disappeared.
