Swiss ATC help required
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Swiss ATC help required
Hi there all
I've tried to searchout all I can on the mighty PPrune on swiss atc, but most of it seems to be years old.
And the information on the skyguide website isn't exactly exhaustive
I am interested in a career in your green and pleasant land, and wondered if anybody on here was still working there and could give me bit of info.
Is there due to be eventually just the one ACC, which will be in Zurich, or have I got that wrong? If so, as of when? I gather it has been delayed.
If not is it a choice between Geneva and Zurich. What's the difference? Just high and low level sectors?
Whats it like working there? I have read that French/ German is required on Prune, but the website does not mention it. Obviously quality of life would deem it necessary, but I am interested in what is required.
What kind of make up of nationalities do you have? Is skyguide a good company? Many perks? Is there a good pension, or is there a pension at all?
How is the money? I gather you have low tax, but are things so expensive that you cannot establish a high standard of living, or is it a great life? Can non nationals buy houses there?
Do some people live in Germany/ France/ Austria/ Liechtenstein and drive to work?
Do you have a short course for already valid controllers? Or is it the full course for all, regardless of experience, like Eurocontrol?
Sorry to fire a whole load of questions, I have emailed your people, but await a reply, and would love to come for a visit if they allow it, or ever reply.
Thanks in advance for your time
NM
Ps- and is the weather really 6 months of rain as I've read?!
I've tried to searchout all I can on the mighty PPrune on swiss atc, but most of it seems to be years old.
And the information on the skyguide website isn't exactly exhaustive
I am interested in a career in your green and pleasant land, and wondered if anybody on here was still working there and could give me bit of info.
Is there due to be eventually just the one ACC, which will be in Zurich, or have I got that wrong? If so, as of when? I gather it has been delayed.
If not is it a choice between Geneva and Zurich. What's the difference? Just high and low level sectors?
Whats it like working there? I have read that French/ German is required on Prune, but the website does not mention it. Obviously quality of life would deem it necessary, but I am interested in what is required.
What kind of make up of nationalities do you have? Is skyguide a good company? Many perks? Is there a good pension, or is there a pension at all?
How is the money? I gather you have low tax, but are things so expensive that you cannot establish a high standard of living, or is it a great life? Can non nationals buy houses there?
Do some people live in Germany/ France/ Austria/ Liechtenstein and drive to work?
Do you have a short course for already valid controllers? Or is it the full course for all, regardless of experience, like Eurocontrol?
Sorry to fire a whole load of questions, I have emailed your people, but await a reply, and would love to come for a visit if they allow it, or ever reply.
Thanks in advance for your time
NM
Ps- and is the weather really 6 months of rain as I've read?!
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Hi,
I'm working for Skyguide in Geneva and will try to answer your questions. I'm not sure I will have an answer for all of them...
Skyguide has 2 main centers for en-route control. One in Geneva and one in Zurich. The Zurich upper secters (FL245+) should have been groupped in Geneva last year. But for some obscure reason it has been delayed to ??? In fact we don't know if this project is still runnig (officially it is still...)
Geneva upper sectors work on a new stripless system which is propably one of the best in the world.Have a look on www.skysoft-atm.com. Zurich is still working on an very very old fashioned system (1 executive, 1 planner each of them having its own stripboard... and 1 assistant). A program is running to develop new control system for them but it might take some time...
I don't think French or German is really requested for already qualified ATCO. But it helps for daily life. If you already have an ATC license the training will be about 6 months long. You'll have theory and trainig for the new sectors. It goes pretty fast.
The years of licence you have from a previous contractor are taken into account for your salary. It starts from ~105'000 CHF + 24'000 CHF (responsability bonus) and goes up every year. (1CHF = 0.60€)
Even if the cost of living is high in Switzerland and espacially in the region of Geneva and Zurich, it is still a good salary. You can live wherever you want (France or Germany). For the house I have no idea but I think you can buy one. And sorry to announce that but you can expect rain, fog and snow. In fact espacially rain but it change from month to month and you also have beautiful wx of coure.
I hope to have given answer to most of your questions but let me know if you want some more details.
All the best
I'm working for Skyguide in Geneva and will try to answer your questions. I'm not sure I will have an answer for all of them...
Skyguide has 2 main centers for en-route control. One in Geneva and one in Zurich. The Zurich upper secters (FL245+) should have been groupped in Geneva last year. But for some obscure reason it has been delayed to ??? In fact we don't know if this project is still runnig (officially it is still...)
Geneva upper sectors work on a new stripless system which is propably one of the best in the world.Have a look on www.skysoft-atm.com. Zurich is still working on an very very old fashioned system (1 executive, 1 planner each of them having its own stripboard... and 1 assistant). A program is running to develop new control system for them but it might take some time...
I don't think French or German is really requested for already qualified ATCO. But it helps for daily life. If you already have an ATC license the training will be about 6 months long. You'll have theory and trainig for the new sectors. It goes pretty fast.
The years of licence you have from a previous contractor are taken into account for your salary. It starts from ~105'000 CHF + 24'000 CHF (responsability bonus) and goes up every year. (1CHF = 0.60€)
Even if the cost of living is high in Switzerland and espacially in the region of Geneva and Zurich, it is still a good salary. You can live wherever you want (France or Germany). For the house I have no idea but I think you can buy one. And sorry to announce that but you can expect rain, fog and snow. In fact espacially rain but it change from month to month and you also have beautiful wx of coure.
I hope to have given answer to most of your questions but let me know if you want some more details.
All the best
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Geneva approach radar
Hallo shagshag,
I'm interested ina vacancy for the Geneva approach and I have some questions if you can answer for me.
I'm following the vacanciess at skyguide.com for some years but they never have vacancies for the approach, do they have enough stuff?
Is French and german mandatory for the approach?
What is the salary approximately for the app guys?
Thanks.
I'm interested ina vacancy for the Geneva approach and I have some questions if you can answer for me.
I'm following the vacanciess at skyguide.com for some years but they never have vacancies for the approach, do they have enough stuff?
Is French and german mandatory for the approach?
What is the salary approximately for the app guys?
Thanks.
and French is mandatory.
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northernmonkey 1261
As on of the 15 or so expats working in Geneva, I can confirm most of what has already been said - but with a bit of expat "spin".
For the moment, Approach is located in Geneva, as is the terminal control and UAC. Rumours abound as to what might move where and when but specific information is very hard to come by.
Politics are intertwined in everything we do here. Take equipment - Geneva develops a system (beit stripless, radar software, etc.) and Zurich needs a similar system. Anywhere else, they would adopt what has already been developed for and paid by the operator - not in Switzerland. Zurich must have their own system that is superior to that employed in Geneva, therefore will waste millions developing a similar system, just to prove a point. All that in a company that claims to be cash starved, while lowering route charges because the politicians demanded it!!
In either place, the local language really is a necessity - life would be possible but significantly more difficult and frustrating without it. Certainly as far as Geneva is concerned, French is mandatory as around 40 percent of the traffic and a large amount of co-ordination is done in French.
Living - Geneva (and Zurich) is expensive. Housing costs a fortune and is scarce, expect to pay at least 3,500 swiss francs per month for any kind of reasonable appartment. You can live in France but prices have risen sharply in the last few years since the swiss were also allowed to (legally) do so. A decent appartment will cost al least 300,000 euros and a house at least 450,000 - considerably more in a good area.
Work - morale is fairly low at the moment. Especially in the TCG department (tower/approach/terminal) where chronic unserstaffing has meant a lot of pressure from management to work overtime which, coupled with the shift system which always starts on lates and finishes with earlys, means chronic fatigue. Everyone works individual rosters which are received around 5 weeks in advance (if we're lucky).
Procedures - gray is the colour of the month here - black and white is definitely not "in". If it can be made less clear and/or more complicated - just wait for the next revision.
Training - even experienced controllers arriving will spend a coupl of months in the classroom, followed by, I think, around 4-6 weeks in the sim and 3 - 6 months OJT. Number of validations required depends where you're going to work. For approach it's usually approach (arr/dep/co-ord/final) and the terminal sectors - towere/approach is only for the locals!
Pay - pretty much as posted - for a controller with say, 10 years experience, gross salary is around170,000 - 180,000 swiss per year, depending on shifts worked, training etc. Allowances exist for sundays/public holidays/night shifts and coaching (OJTI). Pension is fairly good - that's all that keeps some people here but that's all changing. Since the recent pay rises in the middle east, Eurocontrol, Canada, etc. quite a few are looking elsewhere - management's head is firmly stuck in the sand believing that either noone will leave or that they'll soon come running back! The personnel department's declared goal is to reduce the salaries, as they think we're overpaid!! Cost of living has risen considerably in recent years but salaries have been stagnating for at least 15 - (0.5 percent raise, anyone?!) If yo live in France it's worse, as the Euro has strengthened a lot against the swiss franc, meaning a 15 percent or so pay cut.
Notwithstanding all this, it's a very pleasant part of the world to live in - weather is warm in summer, grey in autumn (IMC), bloody cold in January (not much snow but can reach -15 for a couple of weeks at a time) and very pleasant in the spring.
Any other questions, please pm me,
regards,
Guy.
edited for spelling and procedures
As on of the 15 or so expats working in Geneva, I can confirm most of what has already been said - but with a bit of expat "spin".
For the moment, Approach is located in Geneva, as is the terminal control and UAC. Rumours abound as to what might move where and when but specific information is very hard to come by.
Politics are intertwined in everything we do here. Take equipment - Geneva develops a system (beit stripless, radar software, etc.) and Zurich needs a similar system. Anywhere else, they would adopt what has already been developed for and paid by the operator - not in Switzerland. Zurich must have their own system that is superior to that employed in Geneva, therefore will waste millions developing a similar system, just to prove a point. All that in a company that claims to be cash starved, while lowering route charges because the politicians demanded it!!
In either place, the local language really is a necessity - life would be possible but significantly more difficult and frustrating without it. Certainly as far as Geneva is concerned, French is mandatory as around 40 percent of the traffic and a large amount of co-ordination is done in French.
Living - Geneva (and Zurich) is expensive. Housing costs a fortune and is scarce, expect to pay at least 3,500 swiss francs per month for any kind of reasonable appartment. You can live in France but prices have risen sharply in the last few years since the swiss were also allowed to (legally) do so. A decent appartment will cost al least 300,000 euros and a house at least 450,000 - considerably more in a good area.
Work - morale is fairly low at the moment. Especially in the TCG department (tower/approach/terminal) where chronic unserstaffing has meant a lot of pressure from management to work overtime which, coupled with the shift system which always starts on lates and finishes with earlys, means chronic fatigue. Everyone works individual rosters which are received around 5 weeks in advance (if we're lucky).
Procedures - gray is the colour of the month here - black and white is definitely not "in". If it can be made less clear and/or more complicated - just wait for the next revision.
Training - even experienced controllers arriving will spend a coupl of months in the classroom, followed by, I think, around 4-6 weeks in the sim and 3 - 6 months OJT. Number of validations required depends where you're going to work. For approach it's usually approach (arr/dep/co-ord/final) and the terminal sectors - towere/approach is only for the locals!
Pay - pretty much as posted - for a controller with say, 10 years experience, gross salary is around170,000 - 180,000 swiss per year, depending on shifts worked, training etc. Allowances exist for sundays/public holidays/night shifts and coaching (OJTI). Pension is fairly good - that's all that keeps some people here but that's all changing. Since the recent pay rises in the middle east, Eurocontrol, Canada, etc. quite a few are looking elsewhere - management's head is firmly stuck in the sand believing that either noone will leave or that they'll soon come running back! The personnel department's declared goal is to reduce the salaries, as they think we're overpaid!! Cost of living has risen considerably in recent years but salaries have been stagnating for at least 15 - (0.5 percent raise, anyone?!) If yo live in France it's worse, as the Euro has strengthened a lot against the swiss franc, meaning a 15 percent or so pay cut.
Notwithstanding all this, it's a very pleasant part of the world to live in - weather is warm in summer, grey in autumn (IMC), bloody cold in January (not much snow but can reach -15 for a couple of weeks at a time) and very pleasant in the spring.
Any other questions, please pm me,
regards,
Guy.
edited for spelling and procedures
Last edited by Guy D'ageradar; 24th Nov 2007 at 12:12.
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Zurich must have their own system that is superior to that employed in Geneva, therefore will waste million developing a similar system, just to prove a point.
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Spuds
Okay, maybe a bit over dramatic but how would YOU explain the huge system disparities between two adjacent centres owned/operated by the same organisation where one (zurich) desperately needs modernisation but point blank refuses any variation of the existing systems developed for and used at the other (Geneva). Not trying to instigate a slanging match but genuinely interested.Oh, and please don't try for a second to tell me there are no political problems between the two.
Bon weekend!
Okay, maybe a bit over dramatic but how would YOU explain the huge system disparities between two adjacent centres owned/operated by the same organisation where one (zurich) desperately needs modernisation but point blank refuses any variation of the existing systems developed for and used at the other (Geneva). Not trying to instigate a slanging match but genuinely interested.Oh, and please don't try for a second to tell me there are no political problems between the two.
Bon weekend!
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Historically, Geneva and Zurich had always worked with different systems and sector layouts, and Geneva was always more advanced, mostly because Zurich failed to be as innovative.
What is happening now in Zurich regarding system compatibility is a mere catching up to Geneva level, nothing more, nothing less. Of course the system being in use in Geneva can't be adapted on a one to one basis, as those different working philosophies can't be overcome from today to tomorrow, but the end result will be as close as it can get.
It may be interesting to know that for instance in Langen ACC, Frankfurt and Düsseldorf sectors are located in the same room, but their systems can't "communicate"!
On the other hand, the above does not apply to APP/DEP, where, IMHO, Geneva is lagging behind. CALM has been in use in Zurich for several years and it has made life a lot easier. Now that Geneva APP are about to introduce an electronic coordination tool as well, they, to my knowledge, do not adapt CALM, but they intend to reinvent the wheel by setting up their own system. So much for "one operation"...
What is happening now in Zurich regarding system compatibility is a mere catching up to Geneva level, nothing more, nothing less. Of course the system being in use in Geneva can't be adapted on a one to one basis, as those different working philosophies can't be overcome from today to tomorrow, but the end result will be as close as it can get.
It may be interesting to know that for instance in Langen ACC, Frankfurt and Düsseldorf sectors are located in the same room, but their systems can't "communicate"!
On the other hand, the above does not apply to APP/DEP, where, IMHO, Geneva is lagging behind. CALM has been in use in Zurich for several years and it has made life a lot easier. Now that Geneva APP are about to introduce an electronic coordination tool as well, they, to my knowledge, do not adapt CALM, but they intend to reinvent the wheel by setting up their own system. So much for "one operation"...
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On the other hand, the above does not apply to APP/DEP, where, IMHO, Geneva is lagging behind. CALM has been in use in Zurich for several years and it has made life a lot easier. Now that Geneva APP are about to introduce an electronic coordination tool as well, they, to my knowledge, do not adapt CALM, but they intend to reinvent the wheel by setting up their own system.
Spuds, I'm afraid, but I never heard of such a system... What apart from "one operation" would be the benefit of CALM??? Single RWY OPS do not require a system that tells you which guy to turn on to the ILS, common sense, or better "first there" does...
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Hi there! 3 questions !
1st, what is CALM ?
2nd, is french mandatory to work in Geneva approach ?
3rd, where do I apply ?
Guy, I have tried to pm you a few month ago, and had no answers!
2nd, is french mandatory to work in Geneva approach ?
3rd, where do I apply ?
Guy, I have tried to pm you a few month ago, and had no answers!
Yes French is mandatory!
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Oups...
Sorry, we were quite a bit off topic...
CALM is an electronic coordination tool in use in Zurich Approach (kind of a sequencer) and therfore no good for Geneva
Yes, french is mandatory in GVA APP
Feel free to PM me for application details (I'll try to be faster than Guy)
CALM is an electronic coordination tool in use in Zurich Approach (kind of a sequencer) and therfore no good for Geneva
Yes, french is mandatory in GVA APP
Feel free to PM me for application details (I'll try to be faster than Guy
)
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clr4takeoff
Here we go.
1. Sorry don't know anything about CALM - except that a different piece of kit is currently being dveloped to do exactly the same job for Geneva. Sound familiar?
2. YES, as noticed.
3. p.m. already sent! Sorry but no-one usually bothers pm-ing me so I didn't notice! Will try to pay more attention in class!!!
Bye.....
Here we go.
1. Sorry don't know anything about CALM - except that a different piece of kit is currently being dveloped to do exactly the same job for Geneva. Sound familiar?
2. YES, as noticed.
3. p.m. already sent! Sorry but no-one usually bothers pm-ing me so I didn't notice! Will try to pay more attention in class!!!
Bye.....
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@ Chuchichäschtli
Quod erat demonstrandum 
except that a different piece of kit is currently being dveloped to do exactly the same job for Geneva
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Spuds
No, no and no... If you are talking about HECT, this tool hasn't got anything to do with CALM. It only works when holdings are open... and you should know that, apart for snow removal and emergencies, this is hardly the case in GVA, we love vectoring the guys around .
BTW, each projcet GVA-side has been put on ice, in order to permit catch-up/overtake!! So don't you try and tell me what we develop.
No, no and no... If you are talking about HECT, this tool hasn't got anything to do with CALM. It only works when holdings are open... and you should know that, apart for snow removal and emergencies, this is hardly the case in GVA, we love vectoring the guys around . BTW, each projcet GVA-side has been put on ice, in order to permit catch-up/overtake!! So don't you try and tell me what we develop
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Spuds
Well, with an acceptance rate of 10/h you have a lot of time to vector
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't bother (or do you think all our traffic comes via zurich?)! If you want to see what happens here for real, I would suggest any Saturday from the 15th December on, between 8am and 8pm!!(although we're moving similar amounts of traffic regularly during the week now).
clr4takeoff
awaiting your pm - it appears the pprune postie's also on strike!!
Guy.
Well, with an acceptance rate of 10/h you have a lot of time to vector
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't bother (or do you think all our traffic comes via zurich?)! If you want to see what happens here for real, I would suggest any Saturday from the 15th December on, between 8am and 8pm!!(although we're moving similar amounts of traffic regularly during the week now).
clr4takeoff
awaiting your pm - it appears the pprune postie's also on strike!!
Guy.
Last edited by Guy D'ageradar; 30th Nov 2007 at 04:24.
