NSL/NERL split
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I am astounded to hear that management could impose satutory redundancy terms. I have read the legislation and it states quite clearly that only those terms that are discriminatory are void - therefore 1 month per year is enforceable under the old scheme because it is not age discriminatory. How can it be legal to take away a non-age-discriminatory term and condition?
I hope the union have taken their own legal advice on this because it sounds like macho bull from NATS to intimidate us. And by the way, how the hell can it be unlawful to strike (with a ballot)??? Even if it is, planes can't take off when we're striking, lawfully or otherwise, and Airline Group airlines would start to go bust very rapidly indeed....
Another 'no' vote you can count on.
I hope the union have taken their own legal advice on this because it sounds like macho bull from NATS to intimidate us. And by the way, how the hell can it be unlawful to strike (with a ballot)??? Even if it is, planes can't take off when we're striking, lawfully or otherwise, and Airline Group airlines would start to go bust very rapidly indeed....
Another 'no' vote you can count on.
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Interesting and quite surprising (but gratifying) to read that many ATCO's will be voting against the new redundancy payments.
To anybody that thinks that 'it's not going to affect me 'cos I'm an ATCO' please remember that this represents a vicious attack on the terms and conditions of service for everybody in NATS. This is just the tip of the iceberg, vote for this and you won't like what comes next!!
By the way, was the little red triplane a 'Fokker' or have I spelt it wrongly?
To anybody that thinks that 'it's not going to affect me 'cos I'm an ATCO' please remember that this represents a vicious attack on the terms and conditions of service for everybody in NATS. This is just the tip of the iceberg, vote for this and you won't like what comes next!!
By the way, was the little red triplane a 'Fokker' or have I spelt it wrongly?
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Spoke with a union rep a couple of weeks ago about this and was surprised that they are advocating a yes vote. When I asked what the rationale was for them recommending a yes vote, the answer was " a No vote means the company will screw you with statutory redundancy terms, a Yes vote means
they will still screw you but just not as much and give you £750".
They must have spent minutes around the negotiating table fine tuning that delightful deal.
they will still screw you but just not as much and give you £750".
They must have spent minutes around the negotiating table fine tuning that delightful deal.
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OK, back to the split.
I'm playing devils advocate here BTW.
NERL makes a profit of £75M. It's regulated, and effectively capped. That's all the profit it can make. (Ish)
NSL makes a profit of £15M. It's not regulated, gets all its work by competetive tender, and the sky's the limit (Ish) Thing is, if some units aren't making profit, (and some aren't) might they get dropped?
However.
As NERL is ringfenced, and has been since PPP, ANY new business will have to fall under the auspices of NSL, so, even in the event that we go after new en route businesses, that profit will fall into the NSL pot.....
I'm playing devils advocate here BTW.
NERL makes a profit of £75M. It's regulated, and effectively capped. That's all the profit it can make. (Ish)
NSL makes a profit of £15M. It's not regulated, gets all its work by competetive tender, and the sky's the limit (Ish) Thing is, if some units aren't making profit, (and some aren't) might they get dropped?
However.
As NERL is ringfenced, and has been since PPP, ANY new business will have to fall under the auspices of NSL, so, even in the event that we go after new en route businesses, that profit will fall into the NSL pot.....
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Does anybody really believe the Airline Group would allow NATS management to impose statutory redundancy terms and risk industrial action?
Methinks our union brothers should stop cosying up to management, clean the brown stuff off their noses and start showing a little backbone! We don't need a strike, just a permanent work-to-rule, total AAVA ban, withdrawal of all input to programmes, massive increase in sick leave....they'd soon see sense.
Methinks our union brothers should stop cosying up to management, clean the brown stuff off their noses and start showing a little backbone! We don't need a strike, just a permanent work-to-rule, total AAVA ban, withdrawal of all input to programmes, massive increase in sick leave....they'd soon see sense.
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massive increase in sick leave
Don't lose the moral high ground my friend. I agree with the rest of your post but fraudulant sick leave can save the the compant money 'cos they would have grounds for dismissal. Stick together brothers, your allowances will be next!
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Not sure if I'm reading more into this than was intended BDiONU, but are you suggesting any form of action is bad?
Just over this issue, or any other that might (will) come up in the future?
Is it not worth at some point drawing a line in the sand, perhaps lighting our infamously dry powder, or is it preferable to you just to accept a slow but continuous drip, drip, drip away of our current T&Cs until we can but look back with rose tinted spectacles and wonder how on earth we let it all happen?
Just over this issue, or any other that might (will) come up in the future?
Is it not worth at some point drawing a line in the sand, perhaps lighting our infamously dry powder, or is it preferable to you just to accept a slow but continuous drip, drip, drip away of our current T&Cs until we can but look back with rose tinted spectacles and wonder how on earth we let it all happen?
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Oh and one other point before I stop reading this thread. I note a lot of talk about how poor the unions are and how badly represented the great unwashed masses are. But I don't read of anyone volunteering to actually join the committee and fight the great fight against the fascist management oppressors. Yawn.
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Well stop training and doing AVAA's then.Ok you take a small pay hit,but the system will soon start to creak.Why is it when someone starts having a go at the Band 4/5 units,then we all have to stick together to defend this terrible act.These are the same units that have voted for mega pay deals,at the expense of the lower band ones,without batting an eyelid.Wake up to what has been happening in lower band units for years.Prospect has done almost nothing for these units,but the greater damage was done by the Band 4/5 ones being plain greedy.I wouldn't like to say what the lower bands will think.Maybe £750 makes up slightly for the money we have lost.
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A lot of Yawning there BD.
No one likes the idea of strike action and I think that would be the wrong road to go down.
Join the union? While some may advocate that I think it's a Non-starter: Prospect are totally compromised and a mass exit would be far more beneficial.
I sincerely hope NATS staff reject the proposed Redundancy package because I think it'd be good for NATS. Happy staff are productive staff. If we carry on down the path some would take us then we are just going to end up another useless company - RailTrack, London Underground, (your local) Water Company, Council, Telecoms Company.
Is that what the Airline Industry really wants? We still provide a Rolls Royce Service and it's about time our management & customers recognised that.
Are we going to spoil the ship for a ha'penny of tar?
Can we pull back from the edge?
No one likes the idea of strike action and I think that would be the wrong road to go down.
Join the union? While some may advocate that I think it's a Non-starter: Prospect are totally compromised and a mass exit would be far more beneficial.
I sincerely hope NATS staff reject the proposed Redundancy package because I think it'd be good for NATS. Happy staff are productive staff. If we carry on down the path some would take us then we are just going to end up another useless company - RailTrack, London Underground, (your local) Water Company, Council, Telecoms Company.
Is that what the Airline Industry really wants? We still provide a Rolls Royce Service and it's about time our management & customers recognised that.
Are we going to spoil the ship for a ha'penny of tar?
Can we pull back from the edge?
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BDiONU wrote:
I have no great desire to take any form of action either but like most of my colleagues I'm sure there'll come a time at some point in the future when it is time to say enough is enough and rather than rolling over, having our tummies tickled, yawning and nodding off oblivious to the world it will be time to stand up and be counted.
Drip...redundancy terms, drip...pension scheme, drip...
p.s. I've done time as a union rep, thanks for asking.
I'm just bored with all this olde worlde type strike action talk which I heard first in the 60's. I personally believe that the very outspoken and vocal few who post in here don't represent the silent majority. In a public forum like this I think it reflects poorly on the rest of us in NATS who don't happen to wish to ignite the 'dry powder'.
Drip...redundancy terms, drip...pension scheme, drip...
p.s. I've done time as a union rep, thanks for asking.
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Throw a dyce
Can you explain when this has happened over the past few years? We have all had exactly the same pay rises over the past few years IIRC.
These are the same units that have voted for mega pay deals,at the expense of the lower band ones,without batting an eyelid.
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throw a dyce is refering to the Banding system which still grates.
The difference in pay between the bands is getting even greater obviously now that we are banded. The bigger units earned more before the banding system as they were ATCO 1/2's and the rest ATCO3's anyway, but this system seems to have greatly widened the gap.
An instructor at the college who has failed validations will retire on a pension greater than my salary!! That's not right.
The difference in pay between the bands is getting even greater obviously now that we are banded. The bigger units earned more before the banding system as they were ATCO 1/2's and the rest ATCO3's anyway, but this system seems to have greatly widened the gap.
An instructor at the college who has failed validations will retire on a pension greater than my salary!! That's not right.
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Hootin and a roarin'
I kinda knew what he was on about but the banding system has not been a past of negotiations for a while i.e. there has not been a vote whereby we could refuse to agree a pay settlement until the bandig system was adressed etc etc.
The banding system is not fair, but there are some quieter units than otheres, and whne you look at the airport side, you will probably find that this is where the greatest disparity lies i.e. form the busiest, most complex airport to the quietest least complex.
However, although I work in area, I know that it's not that simple. I reckon there are a few airfields out there that are fair bit more complex than Heathrow, but they are obviously not as busy. Trying to find a way of measuriong x (being the resultant the combination of business and complexity) is very difficult. The banding was an attempt to do this, however, I agree that it should be revamped and the'model' tewaked to get more accurate results.
The fact that we used to have ATCO 3/2/1 on the same scale is possibly not enough of a difference in wages to keep people happy - and quite rightly so - would a guy working at Farnborough (very busy LARS, steady arrivals/deps) be happy to be on the same wage as a tower only controller at Luton?
Would you, as an Aberdeen controller with mixed runways etc be happy to be on the same wage as a London City Twr controller? There are differences in what we do, even within the same disciplines, these differences have to be recognised, though they should be reviewed regularly to ensure that they are as fais as possible.
As far as the college instructing is concerned - I agree totally. Instructing there should be done by people who still control - if possible they should retain a validation and do th ehours required at a parent unit each month, or if from far away parent units, they could drop the validation, but on the understanding that they will have to re-validate when their college stint is over.
There are a lot of ancillary jobs at the college which could be filled by people who do not need a license - however it is my personal belief that the guys who are doing the runs, should be at the college for a maximum of 5 years. Most Ground School subjects could easily be done by non ATCOs at a hell of a lot less cost.
I kinda knew what he was on about but the banding system has not been a past of negotiations for a while i.e. there has not been a vote whereby we could refuse to agree a pay settlement until the bandig system was adressed etc etc.
The banding system is not fair, but there are some quieter units than otheres, and whne you look at the airport side, you will probably find that this is where the greatest disparity lies i.e. form the busiest, most complex airport to the quietest least complex.
However, although I work in area, I know that it's not that simple. I reckon there are a few airfields out there that are fair bit more complex than Heathrow, but they are obviously not as busy. Trying to find a way of measuriong x (being the resultant the combination of business and complexity) is very difficult. The banding was an attempt to do this, however, I agree that it should be revamped and the'model' tewaked to get more accurate results.
The fact that we used to have ATCO 3/2/1 on the same scale is possibly not enough of a difference in wages to keep people happy - and quite rightly so - would a guy working at Farnborough (very busy LARS, steady arrivals/deps) be happy to be on the same wage as a tower only controller at Luton?
Would you, as an Aberdeen controller with mixed runways etc be happy to be on the same wage as a London City Twr controller? There are differences in what we do, even within the same disciplines, these differences have to be recognised, though they should be reviewed regularly to ensure that they are as fais as possible.
As far as the college instructing is concerned - I agree totally. Instructing there should be done by people who still control - if possible they should retain a validation and do th ehours required at a parent unit each month, or if from far away parent units, they could drop the validation, but on the understanding that they will have to re-validate when their college stint is over.
There are a lot of ancillary jobs at the college which could be filled by people who do not need a license - however it is my personal belief that the guys who are doing the runs, should be at the college for a maximum of 5 years. Most Ground School subjects could easily be done by non ATCOs at a hell of a lot less cost.
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As an Aberdeen Airport controller I am on the same pay scale as London city,Luton.If you look at the agreement,Band 1 was only for people that went to these units after the agreement date.The ones there prior to that are on Band 2.That's what you Area boys voted for,and every lower Band unit couldn't stop it.And that's before we even talk about radar,which I do for Nats for NOTHING.
Anyway this isn't a banding discussion.Just pointing out that the higher band units have never been touched til now,and have no idea how much their greed has cost the lower band units.This isn't anything new to us.Just continuing a theme which Nats/Prospect have done to us for years.
Anyway this isn't a banding discussion.Just pointing out that the higher band units have never been touched til now,and have no idea how much their greed has cost the lower band units.This isn't anything new to us.Just continuing a theme which Nats/Prospect have done to us for years.
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If it is enforced, and you want to hit NATS hard it would be very easy to do. STOP doing AAVAs!!!! For the month of June, one watch in en route requested 61 I understand!! But, you won't....
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I understand what you mean BDiONU but I disagree with what you say earlier.
How much longer, or rather to what extent are we going to allow our working conditions and entitlements to be eroded in exchange for cheap financial bribes or management lies and empty promises?
Personally I wouldn't hesitate taking industrial action. I must add though - if I believed that I and my colleagues were being treated unfairly and that my job security and basic rights were being worn away to a point where all negotiation and diplomatic routes had been extinguished.
It's not something to be taken lightly.
I don't think standing up for our rights reflects poorly on us at all.
I think taking £500 management bribes whilst selling anyone who joins the company in the future down the creek without a certain rowing implement, or allowing the spectre of privatisation to darken our doors when we've always sworn en masse we wouldn't allow it - paints us in a poorer light. Definitely. No wonder we're tagged as being a selfish bunch.
Oh and I've been a union rep. Sadly, I became disillusioned rapidly with people using the union for their own personal gain and standing. A union should be for the staff - not for those who are supposed to represent their views.
How much longer, or rather to what extent are we going to allow our working conditions and entitlements to be eroded in exchange for cheap financial bribes or management lies and empty promises?
Personally I wouldn't hesitate taking industrial action. I must add though - if I believed that I and my colleagues were being treated unfairly and that my job security and basic rights were being worn away to a point where all negotiation and diplomatic routes had been extinguished.
It's not something to be taken lightly.
I don't think standing up for our rights reflects poorly on us at all.
I think taking £500 management bribes whilst selling anyone who joins the company in the future down the creek without a certain rowing implement, or allowing the spectre of privatisation to darken our doors when we've always sworn en masse we wouldn't allow it - paints us in a poorer light. Definitely. No wonder we're tagged as being a selfish bunch.
Oh and I've been a union rep. Sadly, I became disillusioned rapidly with people using the union for their own personal gain and standing. A union should be for the staff - not for those who are supposed to represent their views.