NSL/NERL split

[MrJones]

If NSL is spun off from NERL that is going to happen anyway.

[Hootin an a roarin]

[I]"If you have a divided vote in one thing you must have it in all - that means that NSLill have less of an argument for a decent pay deal next time round... I can see my foot, now where's me shotgun?"

In NSL, unless you work in London, we get a pretty poor pay deal in comparison anyway ( The good old banding system) so what is your point?

The guys at the top vote through the pay deals as always, irrespective of what crumbs are thrown at the regional airports anyway. Your argument therefore of sticking together because of this seems to fall a bit flat!

[anotherthing]

Hootin and a roarin -

In NSL, unless you work in London, we get a pretty poor pay deal in comparison anyway

you are talking rubbish I am afraid.

Yes, the banding may be unfair, however the yearly negotiated pay deal you get is the same across the board at the moment. 3% increase is a 3% increase (insert whatever percentage is applicable).

What I am saying is if you want to start having separate votes now you are effectively setting up vastly different Ts and Cs (again, put aside banding for the moment). Therefore if you have a separate pay deal for NSL and NERL, who do you think is going to fare better? I will give you a clue... it won't be the loss making airports!

I would have thought that a 3% (for example) pay rise for someone on a band 1 or band 2 scale, would be better than a 2% (for example) pay rise for them... I will admit, I am not a maths graduate, but it's pretty simple!

Do you really think that setting up NSL as a wholly stand alone business is going to result in you getting higher pay?

Mr Jones -

NERL and NSL may well go separate ways in the future, but does that really suit you as an airport worker? I doubt it very much with regards to pay and pension etc, but if you and your ilk want to make life easier for Barron in his 'divide and conquer' strategy, keep pushing for separate votes.

I for one would rather see us sticking together a slong as is humanely possible for the benefit of NATS (as an employee - not a management lackey), and as an individual

[MrJones]

Mr Jones -

NERL and NSL may well go separate ways in the future, but does that really suit you as an airport worker? I doubt it very much with regards to pay and pension etc, but if you and your ilk want to make life easier for Barron in his 'divide and conquer' strategy, keep pushing for separate votes.

A cynic might say he'll conquer by getting comfortable NERL staff vote for the £750, then win the Pensions argument on the basis that low profits NSL couldn't afford to Top Up any pension fund shortfall.

Then of course the two companies could be split and with reduced liabilities all round they'd be worth a lot more.

But only a cynic would think that.

[anotherthing]

Mr Jones,

a cynic may indeed think that (and there is no one more cynical when it comes to Mr Bs motives than me), however, NERL staff, myself included, would be stupid to vote for a change for the sake of £750 one off payment.... just because we are typically on a higher wage, it does not follow that we would be better off than band 1 or 2 workers when it comes to the new redundancy package.. far from it, we would lose a lot more.

The problem lies in the veracity of the statement that if we vote against a change, the company can go ahead and do it unilaterally after giving us 6 months notice anyway.... if this is true (any company law experts out there who know the NATS handbook willing to comment?), then we may as well take the money as it is a fait a complis (sp).

If it is not true, then it would be silly for us to take the money and run. In the case of this vote, we need to know what the company can and cannot legally do.

At least this vote and 'bung' will be slightly different compared to the HTD vote in so much that it affects everyone - the HTD vote was a joke, giving people who did not qualify for HTD £250 if the scheme was cancelled..... hmmmm £250 to vote to bin something you are not entitled to... it's no wonder management pushed it through!!

[Me Me Me Me]

The problem lies in the veracity of the statement that if we vote against a change, the company can go ahead and do it unilaterally after giving us 6 months notice anyway.... if this is true (any company law experts out there who know the NATS handbook willing to comment?), then we may as well take the money as it is a fait a complis (sp).

It is the case and I believe it may have been mentioned more than once during negotiations.

Yes, management saw an opportunity to reduce costs on the back of new legislation, but the fact remains there is still a legal requirment to make the changes.

Lets be realistic... The old deal meant some people could theoretically walk out with up to 6 years salary. None of these people were ever going to be allowed to. Management would block it and pay off a cheaper alternative.

So fighting against the tide to protect terms you're never going to get anyway and ending up with a statutory minimum is unwise IMO

[throw a dyce]

Anotherthing,
People at NSL have already paid for the terms at NERL.Atco2/3,Banding including pay deals etc.This is just another thing that we can't fight,and quite frankly £750 minus tax is better in my pocket.You may say that that is just what The Barron wants,but we lost our battle years ago.
NERL staff especially the ones down south have not seen what happened to people in NSL,especially in the sticks.Well welcome to our world.
If we get split off,or are working for the Spaniards whatever,the NSL staff in the lower bands haven't got any fight left in them,or the numbers of oppose whatever Nats/Prospect decide.They have already divided and conquered.Now it's time for the sell-off.

[anotherthing]

throw a dyce

i hear what you are saying, but it flies in the face of what another airport ATCO - Mr Jones - is saying!!

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

Dyce

Now it's time for the sell-off.

Not neccesarily. Perhaps it is the case NSL is carrying some of NERLs overheads and therefore appear to be more loss making than they actually are. Seperating the business would give clarity to how competitive NSL can be! Food for thought...

quite frankly £750 minus tax is better in my pocket.

Absolutely what the little red triplane wants you to think. Next it'll be your annual leave, your luncheon vouchers, your non ops allowance, your uhp, your OT rates and any other allowance he can scrape back of us. When will we stop accepting bungs and stand up for hard won T&Cs.
WAKE UP AND THINK! IS THIS ETHICAL WHEN PEOPLE ARE FACING THE CHOP!

[anotherthing]

When push comes to shove, any attempt to sell off the airports business would smack of gross incompetence with regards to what NATS as a company is trying to achieve.

Barron likes to claim we are an industry leader... well, we may or may not be; what with the way we operate at the coalface coupled with the innovative groundbreaking things our support guys are doing (Mode S etc etc), we are comparable with the best.

However, to either stay or become the industry leader we need the expertise gained from having people in the company doing the hands on job i.e. we need airport, terminal and en-route controllers working in the company, controlling on a day to day basis to ensure that what the wizards in the darkened rooms are developing with regards to future ATC systems etc are salient and worthwhile.

In the same regard, as an industry leader, we need to be able to take someone off the street and train them with a high degree of success to become an ATCO. If we cannot train our own staff, we can never claim to be an industry leader. Unfortunately, our training success at the moment is appalling, taken from initial recruitment to validation. Despite our inability to train, we are trying to sell our training services to foreign agencies..... we even have a 'head of overseas training'.... pity it is filled by the person who oversaw the current fiasco which is the college.

It must by now be increasingly obvious to anyone that all Barron is interested in is making NATS a profitable company, despite the 'not for profit' way we are supposed to work.

As far as his management style is concerned in that respect, he is doing a good job - selling off assets, getting rid of (in the future), less profitable ventures.

As far as his management style is concerned regarding making NATS the 'industry leader', he is doing a terrible job. The way things stand, making large profits does not sit with making the company the best at what it does. Unfortunately, despite any protestations to the contrary, all that Barron and his cronies (and the Governement) are concerned about, is turning a profit.

[MrJones]

I don't look on the £750 as a bribe or a bung, I see it more as Lubrication

[radarman]

Ayr-in-ya-Jockstrap,

Hard-won allowances are already slipping away. In spite of being reassured that we are part of 'NATS UK', nobody on the Gibraltar contract gets UHP, LV's, and we only get 25 days annual leave. NATS appears to have conveniently 'forgotten' to factor these in when they bid. Having won the contract, there is obviously not enough cash to pay for these allowances, so we don't get them! The phrase used by management is that they are 'not achievable under the current contract'. That's management-speak for 'tough sh1t'. And where do our representatives in Prospect stand in all this? Yep, you've guessed, snuggling up to the Barron.

So for those whose airport contract is up for renewal, be very careful as to how the bidding is formulated. The rot has already started, and you won't get any support from Prospect.

[rab-k]

anotherthing

I suspect all this talk of being a "World Leader" is simply to provide a springboard/marketing edge for NSL to be launched into the "Free Market".

The question no doubt asked by Ministers and their advisors of both present and previous administrations is what is the State doing part-owning a company which has a large section operating in the "Free Market"? What is also true is that those private companies who operate in that same "Free Market" are fed up to the back teeth of competing against what they no doubt still regard as a subsidiary of a State-owned company.

The strongest arguments used against an outright privatisation of NATS as a whole were issues surrounding national security and the civil/military interface. Unfortunately, neither of these arguments apply to NSL to the same extent as they do NERL. Likewise, I suspect that the training of ATC staff and to a lesser extent the provision of ATC engineering services are also regarded as being less strategically important than the responsibilites which can be ringfenced by NERL.

Sadly, I suspect that 10 years from now only NERL, (or whatever it will be called by then), will remain from the NATS we know today and, unfortunately, I also suspect that the Unions will not be able to do anything to prevent it.

PS In the world of big business it is not uncommon for a company to take on a contract simply on the basis of making themselves look more attractive in the eyes of a potential buyer. What say you, Radarman?

[terrain safe]

I've read this thread with great interest but I feel i have to say a couple of things.

When the leaflet came out from the union regarding the change to redundancy it was quite interesting how it didn't list what our present terms are.

Regarding the split, when Barron came to chat, he made a very interesting statement. Basically he said that if NATS was split then NSL would become a lot more profitable. This was because at the moment NSL was paying a lot of money into NERL for things that they didn't require. NIBS was part of the process of identifying where the money comes and goes but it would all be untangled sooner rather than later. Now this won't mean that we all get great pay rises, but at least some parity can be afforded to each unit. However I think spliting NATS would be the worst thing that could ever happen to both sides of the divide, but asking people to stand up and be counted is probably asking too much of everyone.

Anyway goodnight all.

[MrJones]

No Idea what Radarman may say rab-k but have you ever considered a position with Prospect?

[throw a dyce]

Ayr
It's past the stage of The Barron getting us to think what he wants.The rot started 17 years ago,and NSL regional airports have been shafted ever since.There is no fight left here,because our friends in NERL and higher band NSL units have done very well at our expense.I didn't see too many people being ethical in the past to shaft lower band units.
The Barron has made it very clear that he wants rid of all the perks.His way is giving bungs.I know a lot of people at our unit have quit the union,over the appalling way they have been treated over the years.May as well save £200+ a year cos they do Bgger all for us.Ok people are facing the chop,but how come our unit is recruiting Atsas.Because they are on a lower salary than NERL units,and few people don't want to come for a wage drop.Who agreed to that,yep THE UNIONS.Barron will steam roller things through and there is nothing that you,me can do to stop him.The Unions have no backbone.

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

The Unions have no backbone.

Sums it all up really!

but how come our unit is recruiting Atsas.

They are probably Varied Contract ATSA's, who can be got rid off cheaply i.e. they are only entitled to statutory redundancy.

[The Jellyman]

I think it's important to differentiate between local and national levels when talking about the Union. The local reps seem to be banging their heads against a brick wall trying to get support from a higher level.

Ours has been asking for help for ages to deal with our emotional blackmailling and quite frankly bullying management and appears to get absolutely nothing back. In the mean time, agreements both local and national are ridden roughshod over at every given opportunity and the staff are squezzed tighter and tighter and the unit pushed ever closer to the dreaded but sadly predictable, howling nasty. Disputes seem to be a badge of honour for GMs nowadays.

On the subject of contracts, they're screwed up by some faceless wonder somewhere who just gets promoted and it's the staff at the airports staring down the barrel.

For example, take the case of a certain unit with a Delegated Function. The contract was bid for on a certain price and the airport company accepted this and started to pay. The unit then got a Delegated Function and charged NERL for the provision of said DF. Rather than this unit being a rarity in NSL and making a profit, an approximate 25% discount was given to the airport company on the conract price! The GM then uses this as an excuse to emotionally blackmail the staff to work over two hours at a time, push the limits of SRATCOH, not cover shortages, not cover all WP positions, break WP, not pay AAVAs, expect staff to add to the massive TOIL backlog, work for free and be grateful for it etc by threatening/using the scare tactic of "the unit is losing money, if you don't do it we'll all be out of jobs"!

Maybe NATS will lose the contract, most likely when NSL is broken up and sold off. However, it's likely to happen far quicker if two get welded together because the GM has read "The Railtrack guide to running a business" and we'll be losing far more than just our jobs!

Managements' cock up, the staff arses!!

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

Dyce

I didn't see too many people being ethical in the past to shaft lower band units.

I hear you, but sooner or later people will wake up. Unfortunately, it may come too late for the smaller fish in the sea. Sad thing human greed.

[throw a dyce]

Well The Barron is certainly planning a biggie.Word around work today is that we will all be saying Ola in the not too distant future.As for smaller fish in the sea,then our particular minnow contributes billions of £ to the UK economy,but Nats hardly know where it is.The further North of Watford the worse it gets.
As I say our unit can't fight anymore.I have got a Yellow book,and I don't care what Barron says,he can't take that from me.Go on then Barron,do what you Fing well want.We woke up 17 years ago,and now we've had it.