High College Failure Rate?
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60 students on my course way back in 1991 at Bournemouth, end result? NATS got 15 controllers validated, the majority of the failures were university graduates, how does a degree in economics help you become a controller????
This job is like Brain surgery, you can either do it, or you cannot. 
This job is like Brain surgery, you can either do it, or you cannot.
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>>>> the majority of the failures were university graduates, how does a degree in economics help you become a controller????
In retrospect, how does a couple of A-Levels help you become a controller (which is, after all, the MINIMUM requirements that NATS sets for entry)? I am not an economics graduate, but people should be aware of how advanced the mathematics is in these types of degree - far more advanced that an A-level in mathematics. So by rights, if you think that a degree in economics doesn't help get you on the road to being a controller, then having a couple of A-Levels certainly shouldn't.
In retrospect, how does a couple of A-Levels help you become a controller (which is, after all, the MINIMUM requirements that NATS sets for entry)? I am not an economics graduate, but people should be aware of how advanced the mathematics is in these types of degree - far more advanced that an A-level in mathematics. So by rights, if you think that a degree in economics doesn't help get you on the road to being a controller, then having a couple of A-Levels certainly shouldn't.
Last edited by nppatt; 2nd Aug 2008 at 19:19.
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My two cents worth... I dont think any public examination or degree in the vast majority of subjects is a reliable guide or quantifier for ability to do/train to do ATC. The skill set needed is very specific and i would suggest unique to the job. I know various people who have 1st class degrees from Oxbridge and the like who couldnt begin to do what we do, but then again I know people with minimal A-levels who might well be able to.
The criteria that NATS look for may or may not be right in any one person's opinion, but they seem to be doing ok at it. Ok maybe cubes might not have much to do with ATC but they display an ability to be spatially aware and process information quickly and accurately, which is an obvious advantage.
When all's said and done if you get through to the college its down to you. If you can do it, go and do it, and if its not for you then so be it. But either way you gotta work hard to find out
Thats more than enough of that...
The criteria that NATS look for may or may not be right in any one person's opinion, but they seem to be doing ok at it. Ok maybe cubes might not have much to do with ATC but they display an ability to be spatially aware and process information quickly and accurately, which is an obvious advantage.
When all's said and done if you get through to the college its down to you. If you can do it, go and do it, and if its not for you then so be it. But either way you gotta work hard to find out
Thats more than enough of that...
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The main aim of the qualifications is the basis that a person is capable of learning and willing to learn, as the studying is intense. As for practical aspects like said before you got it or you haven't.... and A'levels as the minimum requirement, unless they changed the wording it was studied to(not necessarily taken them). and i don't have a degree or a'levels...
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I used to be a milkman, and I lack the superiority complex resulting from high academic achievement. I would say that if the selection process revolves around doing puzzles and playing with cube things then the outcome will probably be success for those who are good at puzzles and playing with cubes.
There is a real and absolute truth......nobody knows what makes a controller tick......and certainly not any of the current "experts".
There is a real and absolute truth......nobody knows what makes a controller tick......and certainly not any of the current "experts".
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NATS trawl for staff through a totally inept selection process then get surprised at the failure rate.
BAe Systems students are either self sponsored and therefore have a big financial drive to pass or are sponsored by aerodromes who have vetted candidates often through their experience and ability as an ATCA.
Try before you buy. Would you buy a car without a test drive? Would you sponsor someone on an expensive course without a practical check of their ability?
BAe Systems students are either self sponsored and therefore have a big financial drive to pass or are sponsored by aerodromes who have vetted candidates often through their experience and ability as an ATCA.
Try before you buy. Would you buy a car without a test drive? Would you sponsor someone on an expensive course without a practical check of their ability?
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I'm currently on 215 Aerodrome. 18 started the course. 2 dropped out in the first few weeks. 1 failed VFR summatives, 1 failed Cross Runway summatives, 2 failed LVP summatives. We now have 12 on the course, 10 of which have just passed oral boards (The other 2 have a resit next week). So hopefully we should have 12 people finishing in 2 weeks time. We have been told that 6 are going to London and 6 are going on an approach course. I believe there are also 12 that have just started on 216 aerodrome.
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055166k - I to used to be a milkman - for 5 years! I was also a lorry driver for a lot of years plus various other jobs including building labourer, roofer, market stall seller, odd jobs person etc etc.
There were only 2 of us on my course who didn't have a degree and we both got through first time whereas others who were educated up to Masters level failed.
Academic achievement is no guarantee of success; hard work and keeping your head down may not guarantee you a pass but will set you on the right course (pardon the pun!).
There were only 2 of us on my course who didn't have a degree and we both got through first time whereas others who were educated up to Masters level failed.
Academic achievement is no guarantee of success; hard work and keeping your head down may not guarantee you a pass but will set you on the right course (pardon the pun!).
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>> NATS no longer require A level qualifications. They removed that requirement about 12 months ago iirc.
And quite right too. As has been mentioned many times before, it is not academic credentials which determines the quality of a candidate, but rather their aptitude for the job (what ever NATS considers that to be).
My earlier response was simply in reponse to WhatMeanPullUp's comment on the the majority of failures being university graduates. That may well have been the case, but I imagine that if you had 60 A-Level candidates on a course and 60 degree students on another course - the fail rate would likely be the same.
It doesn't matter what your background is.... success simply comes down to personal achievement and setting yourself high goals. Something I assume the NATS occupational personality questionnaires at stage 1 are supposed to look for?????
And quite right too. As has been mentioned many times before, it is not academic credentials which determines the quality of a candidate, but rather their aptitude for the job (what ever NATS considers that to be).
My earlier response was simply in reponse to WhatMeanPullUp's comment on the the majority of failures being university graduates. That may well have been the case, but I imagine that if you had 60 A-Level candidates on a course and 60 degree students on another course - the fail rate would likely be the same.
It doesn't matter what your background is.... success simply comes down to personal achievement and setting yourself high goals. Something I assume the NATS occupational personality questionnaires at stage 1 are supposed to look for?????
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Rumours are wonderful things, we've been told we are getting two of the APS course that finishes Oct/Nov at FAB.
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Along time ago, in a universe far, far, away, a course started at "the college".
Out of 31 'cadets' who started, all of who were either:-
a) Ex assistants, min 5 'O' Levels, (GCSEs).
b) Direct Entrants, (min 5 'O' Levels, plus 2 'A" Level passes in either Maths, Geography or a Science subject).
c) Graduates, (min 2, usually 3, A Level passes).
27 Graduated from the "United Kingdom College Of Air Traffic Control".
All validated, and 3 of these are now senior airline captains.
Let's get back to basics.
Out of 31 'cadets' who started, all of who were either:-
a) Ex assistants, min 5 'O' Levels, (GCSEs).
b) Direct Entrants, (min 5 'O' Levels, plus 2 'A" Level passes in either Maths, Geography or a Science subject).
c) Graduates, (min 2, usually 3, A Level passes).
27 Graduated from the "United Kingdom College Of Air Traffic Control".
All validated, and 3 of these are now senior airline captains.
Let's get back to basics.