LL controllers in SUN EFPS shocker
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terrain safe,
We will be working them. The increased shift times are rostered shift times. I can not make this any more clear! Just picking one aspect of the new WP, there will be three ATCOs working 1430-2300 in the NVCR, rather than one presently. There is also a 1330-2200 shift, which is one hour longer, and a 1030-1900, again an hour longer. This does not include travel time. I say again, rostered working shifts have increased in length. Rostered working shifts means the length of time between the time I have to be plugged in and the time at which I unplug and go home. Hence giving us TOIL to get the average hours per week under the maximum.
Radar 707, AAVAs are not rostered because someone 'might' go sick. You are now corrected.
We will be working them. The increased shift times are rostered shift times. I can not make this any more clear! Just picking one aspect of the new WP, there will be three ATCOs working 1430-2300 in the NVCR, rather than one presently. There is also a 1330-2200 shift, which is one hour longer, and a 1030-1900, again an hour longer. This does not include travel time. I say again, rostered working shifts have increased in length. Rostered working shifts means the length of time between the time I have to be plugged in and the time at which I unplug and go home. Hence giving us TOIL to get the average hours per week under the maximum.
Radar 707, AAVAs are not rostered because someone 'might' go sick. You are now corrected.
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Terrain Safe - No the new WP proposal is that we work those hours, they are not "travel time" or anything like that. NSL will NOT pay for travel time.
Radar 707 - Our AAVAs are NOT rostered. Whoever told you that is speaking crap.
Radar 707 - Our AAVAs are NOT rostered. Whoever told you that is speaking crap.
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No I wasn't, I merely look younger than I actually am.
But it is nice to see that ONCE AGAIN, those poor hard done to souls up North feel the need to resort to name calling and chiding the NATS staff who are trying to get some more for themselves.
I commend you.
P7
But it is nice to see that ONCE AGAIN, those poor hard done to souls up North feel the need to resort to name calling and chiding the NATS staff who are trying to get some more for themselves.
I commend you.
P7
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I feel I have to join this spat between north and south as I've been fuming about all the rubbish spoken about Heathrow by those who do not have a clue what they are talking about. When was the last time your unit worked 80-85 movements per hour from 0700 until 2300 without a break, without being able to bandbox any positions, and the staff had almost forgotten what early go's looked like as they were still going hell for leather when the night shift came on.
Please do not compare Heathrow to ANY other airport until you have come and seen what we do. Yes, you all work hard, doing radar etc, but can you say honestly that you do not get a break on the R/T for 1 minute. We do not. We do not complain about it either. We love Heathrow, that is why we work there. Who in their right mind would seek high house prices, congestion on the M25, exorbitant beer prices, and a 20 minute walk to work and be pleased to do it. Yes, you've guessed it, those Band 5 nutters who think they are better than you, who go to all those courses and rub your noses in it, and all those prima donnas who have now retired. If you think that Heathrow still thinks that way, you need to come and see that our average age is now around 30 and that we do not fit your outdated, and frankly, outrageous view of a Unit that shifts a hell of a lot of traffic with a dwindling number of people. If we negotiate something that we feel strongly enough about, do not have a go at us. If we win or lose, that is our problem. We realise that you got a bad deal. Do you want me to set up a standing order to you because I feel sorry for you? Having to leave work earlier to reach the new VCR does have an effect on my family and my way of life. I do have to give up my own time to now arrive at work on time. I will continue to work at Heathrow. I will continue to enjoy it, and I will be glad to show you round should you wish to come and smell the coffee before you pour it down the drain!
Please do not compare Heathrow to ANY other airport until you have come and seen what we do. Yes, you all work hard, doing radar etc, but can you say honestly that you do not get a break on the R/T for 1 minute. We do not. We do not complain about it either. We love Heathrow, that is why we work there. Who in their right mind would seek high house prices, congestion on the M25, exorbitant beer prices, and a 20 minute walk to work and be pleased to do it. Yes, you've guessed it, those Band 5 nutters who think they are better than you, who go to all those courses and rub your noses in it, and all those prima donnas who have now retired. If you think that Heathrow still thinks that way, you need to come and see that our average age is now around 30 and that we do not fit your outdated, and frankly, outrageous view of a Unit that shifts a hell of a lot of traffic with a dwindling number of people. If we negotiate something that we feel strongly enough about, do not have a go at us. If we win or lose, that is our problem. We realise that you got a bad deal. Do you want me to set up a standing order to you because I feel sorry for you? Having to leave work earlier to reach the new VCR does have an effect on my family and my way of life. I do have to give up my own time to now arrive at work on time. I will continue to work at Heathrow. I will continue to enjoy it, and I will be glad to show you round should you wish to come and smell the coffee before you pour it down the drain!
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Sorry, did not mean the bit about the standing order. I'm just a bit fed up with the comparison debate. You choose to live there, I choose to live here. It costs me a lot to live here...
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Pickled Pheasant, I'm glad you enjoy LL and I have the greatest respect for what you guys are doing there, but that's a two way street and those at LL have to show the same respect for what other ATCOs do.
Your first paragraph shows up the problems between units - 80-85 movements per hour is not relevant, it's the number of movements per ATCO and the task complexity which is important. A single ATCO handling 20 - 25 movements an hour in a complex situation is working every bit as hard as LL are. And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it.
It's time we ALL appreciated what others do, and I don't think you're doing that. Maybe you should reverse your offer and go to see some other units as well. What I infer from this thread generally is NOT that people don't appreciate how hard others work, it's that most don't know how hard others work.
At my unit, I don't get more than a 1 minute break on the RT either, but hey, that's the job - I love it too, I chose it and I wouldn't do anything else. I also know that some at "quieter" units have their moments as well. I can still admire the professionalism they display, and it seems to me that's what it should be about!
Your first paragraph shows up the problems between units - 80-85 movements per hour is not relevant, it's the number of movements per ATCO and the task complexity which is important. A single ATCO handling 20 - 25 movements an hour in a complex situation is working every bit as hard as LL are. And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it.
It's time we ALL appreciated what others do, and I don't think you're doing that. Maybe you should reverse your offer and go to see some other units as well. What I infer from this thread generally is NOT that people don't appreciate how hard others work, it's that most don't know how hard others work.
At my unit, I don't get more than a 1 minute break on the RT either, but hey, that's the job - I love it too, I chose it and I wouldn't do anything else. I also know that some at "quieter" units have their moments as well. I can still admire the professionalism they display, and it seems to me that's what it should be about!
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Thankyou Vespasia for talking some sense.
I can think of another unit in the south east that also has to put up with high house prices, high traffic loading (long after LL ATCO's have finished talking to aircraft at night); who have the skill to intergrate and push the traffic enabling them to claim the airport as the worlds busiest single runway, high cost of living, M25 and M23 to cope with and who also have to pass through security to get airside which can take 20 minutes. Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing.
Pickled Peasant - Get your head out of the sand open your eyes, look around and you will see that you are not the only air traffic unit around. Speak to anybody from London City, they will tell you that they too are very busy, having recently set a new daily record. How much more do they get paid for working in a 'high cost of living area?' Not as much as you.
Oh how to win friends and influence people.
I can think of another unit in the south east that also has to put up with high house prices, high traffic loading (long after LL ATCO's have finished talking to aircraft at night); who have the skill to intergrate and push the traffic enabling them to claim the airport as the worlds busiest single runway, high cost of living, M25 and M23 to cope with and who also have to pass through security to get airside which can take 20 minutes. Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing.
Pickled Peasant - Get your head out of the sand open your eyes, look around and you will see that you are not the only air traffic unit around. Speak to anybody from London City, they will tell you that they too are very busy, having recently set a new daily record. How much more do they get paid for working in a 'high cost of living area?' Not as much as you.
Oh how to win friends and influence people.
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Good morning all,
As you all say, other airports are available, they work very hard and believe it or not, we do notice. What I was trying to get over is that we are fed up of being sniped at by people who do not know what Heathrow is like now. Vespasia is right in that we do not realise everything that others do, but I do not remember pulling anyone else's Unit apart from afar in my post. no delay, you are right about City, great job. If I could get them more pay do you think I would'nt?
As you all say, other airports are available, they work very hard and believe it or not, we do notice. What I was trying to get over is that we are fed up of being sniped at by people who do not know what Heathrow is like now. Vespasia is right in that we do not realise everything that others do, but I do not remember pulling anyone else's Unit apart from afar in my post. no delay, you are right about City, great job. If I could get them more pay do you think I would'nt?
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Guys and Gals?
Please, everyone take a deep breath.
Let's try not to start comparing each others c
k sizes here.
I've visited a lot of NATS units and at everyone of them I've been trully impressed at what my colleagues do. This isn't about your unit is busier or more complex than mine.....
Pickled Pheasant has come on here not to rattle cages, but to point out that Heathrow is a stupidly busy and complex unit, yet he/she loves the job with all the crap that's thrown in with it, I'm guessing that at whatever unit in NATS your at, we can all find common ground here, certainly at the units I've visited north and south of the border the above statement rings true. From reading this thread, it does seem that so many of you still subscribe to the belief that all Heathrow controllers are w ers, yet how many of you have visited the unit and really seen what a pleasant place to work it is these days?
nodelay
I think KK does an astounding job with a single runway, and I'm yet to find an LL colleague who thinks otherwise, when mixed mode comes in , we may need to learn a few things or 10 from KK. Shall we get a room?
However,
You simply cannot make a like for like comparison with our operation and yours re EFPS builds, this is unfair. Our EFPS is a more complex build than yours because of T4 runway crossing and the numerous GMC positions, and you need to factor in the fact that we're aren't sitting next to each other anymore for non-verbal co-ordination.
vespasia
Good post fella
What PP is getting at is the fact that the traffic is constantly at this rate between these hours of the day.
Regarding the offer on the table from NSL.
We are getting not a penny in travel time to the new tower, the money is purely for working longer shift times in the NVCR. So as much as some of you would like to use this to bait us further or throw your toys out of the pram, we're getting this money for providing an extended service nothing else!
Radar707 your coment about AAVA's just shows the misinformation and lack of appreciation around the country about LL. How many others out there are standing to be corrected about stuff they think they know about LL?
Everyone.
If you don't think we should get anything for travel time to the new tower, then that's fine, you've made your point we've made ours! If it's because you didn't get it in the past or you think it's part and parcel of the job then fine, but if your just being arsey because you got the raw end of the pay deal and you think we are gold plated prima donnas, then spare a thought for the ATSA's, TELS, and all the non-op support staff who are getting nothing also! When we were negotiating locally it was a case of anything we got they got too.
But I guess that north of the border you already knew that anyway?
Finally,
If the band 1,2 and 3 units are going to stubbornly attack us at every chance they get about our T and Ps compared to theirs reagrdless of the issue on the table, I hope you will reconsider your ways when the pensions issue comes round, as for once, it would be nice, no how about fu ing critical that we stuck together and actually acted like profesionals.
See ya around
YS
Please, everyone take a deep breath.
Let's try not to start comparing each others c
k sizes here.I've visited a lot of NATS units and at everyone of them I've been trully impressed at what my colleagues do. This isn't about your unit is busier or more complex than mine.....
Pickled Pheasant has come on here not to rattle cages, but to point out that Heathrow is a stupidly busy and complex unit, yet he/she loves the job with all the crap that's thrown in with it, I'm guessing that at whatever unit in NATS your at, we can all find common ground here, certainly at the units I've visited north and south of the border the above statement rings true. From reading this thread, it does seem that so many of you still subscribe to the belief that all Heathrow controllers are w
ers, yet how many of you have visited the unit and really seen what a pleasant place to work it is these days?nodelay
I think KK does an astounding job with a single runway, and I'm yet to find an LL colleague who thinks otherwise, when mixed mode comes in , we may need to learn a few things or 10 from KK. Shall we get a room?
However,
Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing
vespasia
Good post fella
And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it
Regarding the offer on the table from NSL.
We are getting not a penny in travel time to the new tower, the money is purely for working longer shift times in the NVCR. So as much as some of you would like to use this to bait us further or throw your toys out of the pram, we're getting this money for providing an extended service nothing else!
Radar707 your coment about AAVA's just shows the misinformation and lack of appreciation around the country about LL. How many others out there are standing to be corrected about stuff they think they know about LL?
Everyone.
If you don't think we should get anything for travel time to the new tower, then that's fine, you've made your point we've made ours! If it's because you didn't get it in the past or you think it's part and parcel of the job then fine, but if your just being arsey because you got the raw end of the pay deal and you think we are gold plated prima donnas, then spare a thought for the ATSA's, TELS, and all the non-op support staff who are getting nothing also! When we were negotiating locally it was a case of anything we got they got too.
But I guess that north of the border you already knew that anyway?
Finally,
If the band 1,2 and 3 units are going to stubbornly attack us at every chance they get about our T and Ps compared to theirs reagrdless of the issue on the table, I hope you will reconsider your ways when the pensions issue comes round, as for once, it would be nice, no how about fu
ing critical that we stuck together and actually acted like profesionals.See ya around
YS
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Carp on
Somebody beat me to it but I'll have my twopenneth worth - Why have you all spiralled in to a self destructive bitching debate.
Where's the debate?
Move this into the NATS forum and stop this feeding frenzy
Where's the debate?
Move this into the NATS forum and stop this feeding frenzy
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Spot on TRT, this is an NATS issue and ought to be moved to the NATS forum, or even better : END IT NOW as our non-EGLL brethren have made up their minds about EGLL based on misconceptions and pre-judgement - fair enough as they probably have no reason to want to come to EGLL to see what really goes on.
And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know
But seriously, gt3, gonzo and pals, lets just leave it now and get on with our 'gold-plated' lives, drinking bollinger on our yachts. Cheers
And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know
But seriously, gt3, gonzo and pals, lets just leave it now and get on with our 'gold-plated' lives, drinking bollinger on our yachts. Cheers
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From a non-NATS perspective, I find this discusson mildly amusing. Some impartial thoughts:
In my dealings with NATS (albeit NERL as opposed to NSL) I have found the safety management regime to be all encompassing. Personally, I would be very suprised (worried?) if NATS hadn't safety managed the whole EFPS thing to death.
As far as extra time getting to work, welcome to the real world. Ever the optimist, maybe the extra walk will assist with individuals' health.
Already said by others, is this discussion not better placed on a closed forum?
In my dealings with NATS (albeit NERL as opposed to NSL) I have found the safety management regime to be all encompassing. Personally, I would be very suprised (worried?) if NATS hadn't safety managed the whole EFPS thing to death.
As far as extra time getting to work, welcome to the real world. Ever the optimist, maybe the extra walk will assist with individuals' health.
Already said by others, is this discussion not better placed on a closed forum?
More than just an ATCO
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Further to walk = less distancre to drive = less petrol consumed = reduction in salary.
QED
As already stated, move it to your private forum; Leave it here, or even better, move it to JB where the real
experts can rip into it
QED
As already stated, move it to your private forum; Leave it here, or even better, move it to JB where the real
experts can rip into it