Airservices Australia Global Search for ATCs
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Time to start shopping
If the reduction in RAAF controller's pay is true; then my advice to all the controller's still there is to start shopping. The RAAF gives you skills that are in demand worldwide at the moment. Start shopping yourselves around as there is a shortage of controllers worldwide and there are many ex-RAAFies who post on here that work in many different countries. Don't for a moment feel any loyalty to an organisation that reduces your worth - move on and move up. Sometimes taking chances opens up all sorts of opportunities that you may not have believed were available.
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Sadly it is true. Latest news though is of a new allowance to cover the loss of the old ones so that no-one will (or should) actually be worse off this week than they were last. I think this means that they'll be effectively marking time with a reducing allowance as their base salary rises. This may stave off some resignations for now but I don't think it'll help over the next couple of years unless there's an inflation link in there somewhere. It's not gonna help any with recruitment either.
ap
ap
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ADF reducing salaries.
I don't get it. The easiest solution to the recruiting crisis in the ADF is to raise the salaries... but now they're reducing the salaries (regardless of the "allowances").
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Hello all. Long time listner, first time caller.
This new allowance is not guaranteed and there are plenty of confused ATCOs. Poor engineers though.
Chatter in small groups is wondering if the ultimate aim of so called project genesis is to re-create the world. Make the majority RAAF jump before forced reduction and release of bases to ASA. Keep a few for the green jobs. Much cheaper than pay-out.
Tools
This new allowance is not guaranteed and there are plenty of confused ATCOs. Poor engineers though.
Chatter in small groups is wondering if the ultimate aim of so called project genesis is to re-create the world. Make the majority RAAF jump before forced reduction and release of bases to ASA. Keep a few for the green jobs. Much cheaper than pay-out.
Tools
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It's not good, is it? Perhaps there's more to it than my source has uncovered, but I can't really see how it can bode well for anyone. Do their Airships realise that in order to be able to man-up an out-of-area detachment & still run things at home, you need to have the home bases running slightly heavy on the manpower during quiet times? In these fast-moving & high-earning days it's not enough to not drive people out; if you want to hang on to the experience you need to actively encourage them to stay!
But hey - I'm not management!
But hey - I'm not management!
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Per Ardua ad Astra!!!
For a literal working translation of Per Ardua ad Astra
read ; Doing more, with less, for longer !
This has always been the modus operandi of the 2 "can do" organisations that I have had the pleasure of over the years.
I found the RAAF to be more so. As an example I remember when we had a new SATCO (ex CI) posted in to our unit which is situated close by the School of ATC. He was in the office only a couple of weeks when the new CI( his replacement) was reshuffled somewhere else - leaving a gap! So SATCO spent 2 then 3 then 4 days a week back at the school as stand in CI! Eventually after about 6 months he stayed away permanantly and we didnt miss him! Of course someone did all his SLJ's etc... Didnt they. ? This gapping became so prevalent in so many areas that I conjured a couple of terms;
RAAF jobshare... 1 bloke .. 2 jobs!!
RAAF musical chairs; when the music stops add a chair . Yet , with same number of players, all chairs must be occupied!!
Looking back , sideways, and even forwards nothing appears to have changed. The focus is still on tactical ops / deployment etc while the butter, on the bread and butter at some civil /mil units gets spread even thinner. Project genesis will become project Exodus I think, if the young blokes get an offer from ASA or get their maps out and discover the ME!! (Abu Dhabi for example)
DogGone
read ; Doing more, with less, for longer !
This has always been the modus operandi of the 2 "can do" organisations that I have had the pleasure of over the years.
I found the RAAF to be more so. As an example I remember when we had a new SATCO (ex CI) posted in to our unit which is situated close by the School of ATC. He was in the office only a couple of weeks when the new CI( his replacement) was reshuffled somewhere else - leaving a gap! So SATCO spent 2 then 3 then 4 days a week back at the school as stand in CI! Eventually after about 6 months he stayed away permanantly and we didnt miss him! Of course someone did all his SLJ's etc... Didnt they. ? This gapping became so prevalent in so many areas that I conjured a couple of terms;
RAAF jobshare... 1 bloke .. 2 jobs!!
RAAF musical chairs; when the music stops add a chair . Yet , with same number of players, all chairs must be occupied!!
Looking back , sideways, and even forwards nothing appears to have changed. The focus is still on tactical ops / deployment etc while the butter, on the bread and butter at some civil /mil units gets spread even thinner. Project genesis will become project Exodus I think, if the young blokes get an offer from ASA or get their maps out and discover the ME!! (Abu Dhabi for example)
DogGone
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Why is the union not saying to ASA if you bring in controllers in there it will be under the certified agreement end of story.
Applicants should however be aware that ASA is desperate for staff and thus would no doubt employ anyone standing their ground under the certified agreement, there are 800+ under that now what's a handful more. ASA may argue that employment under the CA means entry on the lowest wage, which is total BS... Play the card (availability of your labour) and get onto the CA it's the only way to go.
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and yes the CAF wants the ATC function of RAAF decimated, .. May as well go now people because they dont love you any more
1. A temporary retention bonus rolled into salary, now indexed and superannuable, and a possible increase to come, (above the 8.4% over the next 18 months.)
2. A project designed to increase location stability. (Genesis)
Super and stability were the real problems for RAAF ATC.
The other chatter about pay going down affects a small number of (non FPC) controllers who will catch up when they are FPC. (and they are getting a non reduction allowance).
This is an interim decision which can only improve when the Officer pay scales are reviewed in May.
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Why Doesn't the Union say...
Tweety,
There's a small amount of thread creep here but I'll take the bait. The union specifically asked; "Under which conditions would the new recruits be employed?" The answer, directly from the CEO and without conditions or qualifications, was "Certified Agreement".
RAAF locations is a different kettle of fish. It would depend upon how the employment was structured. The CA applies specifically to Airservices Australia ATC (and support positions) employees. Were Airservices Pacific Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary or some other Jetstar style spin-off) to employ staff for RAAF locations, the CA would not apply. Were the RAAF locations staff employed directly into Airservices Australia the CA conditions would apply.
This level of tactics doesn't even need the support of the federal government and the Workchoices legislation enacted a little over a year ago. The other thing that looks attractive to the RAAF (apart from Shep getting rid of those pain in the @rse ATCs) is that Airservices is offering to staff at dramatically reduced numbers than currently required by RAAF. Never mind that those officers also do things other than their ATC roles. It looks attractive on paper. Airservices dosen't need to offer the now-ex RAAF staff as much money as the civvies as they can bargain on the market value. If you want to stay in this location then this is what we'll pay. People who were previously on the RAAF salary might well agree.
Interesting times indeed...
DNC
There's a small amount of thread creep here but I'll take the bait. The union specifically asked; "Under which conditions would the new recruits be employed?" The answer, directly from the CEO and without conditions or qualifications, was "Certified Agreement".
RAAF locations is a different kettle of fish. It would depend upon how the employment was structured. The CA applies specifically to Airservices Australia ATC (and support positions) employees. Were Airservices Pacific Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary or some other Jetstar style spin-off) to employ staff for RAAF locations, the CA would not apply. Were the RAAF locations staff employed directly into Airservices Australia the CA conditions would apply.
This level of tactics doesn't even need the support of the federal government and the Workchoices legislation enacted a little over a year ago. The other thing that looks attractive to the RAAF (apart from Shep getting rid of those pain in the @rse ATCs) is that Airservices is offering to staff at dramatically reduced numbers than currently required by RAAF. Never mind that those officers also do things other than their ATC roles. It looks attractive on paper. Airservices dosen't need to offer the now-ex RAAF staff as much money as the civvies as they can bargain on the market value. If you want to stay in this location then this is what we'll pay. People who were previously on the RAAF salary might well agree.
Interesting times indeed...
DNC
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Hi all, I'm tryin' to get the real situation awareness, but it seems to be impossible. I should be one of the eurogoose who would like to come over there, but what I see is a sort of internal war to get into ASA the ex RAAF. Nothing to say, but what about other positions? I've read there's a team going around the world for the interviews, but if there are only 35 positions available what does it means? In Italy we had the same situstion about 10 years ago when about 300 controllers of the italian Airforce tried to make the jump to Enav, and they got it! Should it be something similar? Shall we have a chance without having half payment or something like that?
Any info to put light on this foggy situation will be appreciated... Thanks
Any info to put light on this foggy situation will be appreciated... Thanks
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It's pretty simple really.
Once you remove the fact that controllers need to be posted every few years, go on exercise & deployments, go on various courses, do shoots and fitness tests etc - you don't need anywhere near the amount of people. Of course the driving factor in this is the train-to-train situation.
Once it's settled under AsA there will be very little training going on, and everyone rated to normal traffic with no supervision.
Making a roster for two positions (even three with a supervisor) is not hard for 16 hours a day. You could have a core team of 6 doing 2x Mornings, 2x Afternoons and 2 days off. Then you could supplement with one or two doing regular M-F 9-5 shifts.
Once you remove the fact that controllers need to be posted every few years, go on exercise & deployments, go on various courses, do shoots and fitness tests etc - you don't need anywhere near the amount of people. Of course the driving factor in this is the train-to-train situation.
Once it's settled under AsA there will be very little training going on, and everyone rated to normal traffic with no supervision.
Making a roster for two positions (even three with a supervisor) is not hard for 16 hours a day. You could have a core team of 6 doing 2x Mornings, 2x Afternoons and 2 days off. Then you could supplement with one or two doing regular M-F 9-5 shifts.
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Obviously I don't know the exact mil set-up in Oz, but over here the standard gaff is
Tower
Director (Radar)
Approach (Radar)
Zone (Radar)
Talkdown 1 (PAR)
Talkdown 2 (PAR)
Supervisor
Of course, a lot of the time Dir & APR or APR & Zone can be combined & even all 3 when tfc permits & Sup can also spend time on console. Even so, a (mostly) M-F unit is running at around 11 ATCOs.
Surely it wouldn't be that much less over there?
(Oops - thread-creep alert!!)
Back to topic, I hope NimFlt's sniffing around the bottom of the right tree, cos I'd hate for ASA to start lowering the numbers!
ap
Tower
Director (Radar)
Approach (Radar)
Zone (Radar)
Talkdown 1 (PAR)
Talkdown 2 (PAR)
Supervisor
Of course, a lot of the time Dir & APR or APR & Zone can be combined & even all 3 when tfc permits & Sup can also spend time on console. Even so, a (mostly) M-F unit is running at around 11 ATCOs.
Surely it wouldn't be that much less over there?
(Oops - thread-creep alert!!)
Back to topic, I hope NimFlt's sniffing around the bottom of the right tree, cos I'd hate for ASA to start lowering the numbers!
ap
Last edited by aluminium persuader; 5th Mar 2007 at 09:09. Reason: Too many "obviously"s!
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AP
You forgot Ground? Or does that no longer exist?
In Oz the system is as I described in an earleir post under another thread (youll have to search). But there is very little "trust" within the system; which produces controllers rated to "different levels of traffic " with "different levels of supervision". One standard " normal traffic with no supervision" was eluded to in an above post " There are others. ? So who and how is this level of traffic quantified? And where is it laid down? Unit Local Standing Instructions ? I dont think so. Very Un ICAO!! I kid you not. Absolute j*ke! Wherelse in the world does this happen? Anybody? You are either rated or you aint. Supervision for adults should lean towards IFER and watch management; not second guessing a "rated" controllers every decision in TWR and APP. Expediancy to get a job done (at any cost) with limited staff, an increasing lack of experience and sometimes blatantly obvious lack of cognitive ATC related ability, is a wonderful mother of invention in a "can do" world!
If this isnt the case why does the RAAF employ 2 supervsiors at most units when they are obviously so short of people ?
Apologies for thread creep .....again. But with over supervision, and a lack of genuine interest in Aviation by many recent,I dont think ASA will get much from the RAAF genepool these days.
DogGone
You forgot Ground? Or does that no longer exist?
In Oz the system is as I described in an earleir post under another thread (youll have to search). But there is very little "trust" within the system; which produces controllers rated to "different levels of traffic " with "different levels of supervision". One standard " normal traffic with no supervision" was eluded to in an above post " There are others. ? So who and how is this level of traffic quantified? And where is it laid down? Unit Local Standing Instructions ? I dont think so. Very Un ICAO!! I kid you not. Absolute j*ke! Wherelse in the world does this happen? Anybody? You are either rated or you aint. Supervision for adults should lean towards IFER and watch management; not second guessing a "rated" controllers every decision in TWR and APP. Expediancy to get a job done (at any cost) with limited staff, an increasing lack of experience and sometimes blatantly obvious lack of cognitive ATC related ability, is a wonderful mother of invention in a "can do" world!
If this isnt the case why does the RAAF employ 2 supervsiors at most units when they are obviously so short of people ?
Apologies for thread creep .....again. But with over supervision, and a lack of genuine interest in Aviation by many recent,I dont think ASA will get much from the RAAF genepool these days.
DogGone
Last edited by BurglarsDog; 5th Mar 2007 at 12:12. Reason: semantics
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Ah, you're quite right, my little canine friend. I forgot!
A pat on the head for you!
How on earth does a traffic limitation work? If it builds up do you have to unplug? Crikey!
ap
A pat on the head for you!
How on earth does a traffic limitation work? If it builds up do you have to unplug? Crikey!
ap
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Whats the tally ? Yes or No ?
Just in off the press .... 2 in Dubai (husband and wife) 
have so far gone through to the final round of phyco tests/short list ...and two others 
did'nt get the nod of approval ....(looking but not getting !!) ...... the exact tally of who got vs who did'nt is not yet known ......
What about the rest of the world ???
have so far gone through to the final round of phyco tests/short list ...and two others did'nt get the nod of approval ....(looking but not getting !!) ...... the exact tally of who got vs who did'nt is not yet known ......What about the rest of the world ???
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Just got an email with relocation questionnaire. It also said that there are 2 training phases - #1 65k-70k; #2 70k-100k depending on skills and experience.
What does that actually mean and does anyone know how long those phases are?
thanks and cheers, tssu
What does that actually mean and does anyone know how long those phases are?
thanks and cheers, tssu
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Nope not you but now welcome aboard, your 2 plus another 1 plus the couple makes ......eh.....standby eh..... 5 Jaapies for final testing! How many from Jo'burg ? 