Prestwick: Controllers' bomb flights unease
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If they don't like it, they can join the demo today:
See BBC item linked in other thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=1#post2748176
See BBC item linked in other thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=1#post2748176
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'Just maybe the concern of the ATCOs is for their PERSONAL safety. Many of them must live fairly close by and they certainly work within what might be regarded as an uncomfortably close distance.'
I'm sorry, IMHO, that's a pathetic statement and you clearly have no idea of the science behind today's modern weapons.
With comments like that, you should be working for the Daily Mail.
Phew, rant over!
I'm sorry, IMHO, that's a pathetic statement and you clearly have no idea of the science behind today's modern weapons.
With comments like that, you should be working for the Daily Mail.
Phew, rant over!
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Not all Prestwick ATCOs are feeling uneasy about working these a/c. I'm not nor have I heard any declarations of "uneasiness".
Hezbollah and their kind nearly brought our industry to it's knees, they've stated their wish to destroy the western way of life. I don't give a monkeys what Mr Anwar thinks, it's obvious where his loyalties lie.
Hezbollah and their kind nearly brought our industry to it's knees, they've stated their wish to destroy the western way of life. I don't give a monkeys what Mr Anwar thinks, it's obvious where his loyalties lie.
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Originally Posted by ayrshireATCer
I'm not nor have I heard any declarations of "uneasiness".
Not to say that makes your views, whoever you may be, any less valid. However, most of the "uneasiness" I have encountered has been expressed in the form of expletives directed at the "
Yanks" or " Isrealis" for shipping their bombs through here.Several of us, although you're apparently not amongst that number, don't feel particularly comfortable about giving a load of ordnance safe, orderly and expeditious handling on its way to perhaps being used to blow some women and kids to bits who just so happened to be in the wrong place, if you can indeed call their own homes the "wrong place", at the wrong time.
But that aside, we do give said ordnance safe, orderly and expeditious handling despite that fact and have to sleep at night in the knowledge of having done so.
Furthermore, if Syria/Iran were shipping katoosha rockets through Prestwick for Hezbo' I'd be hearing a great deal more of "
Syrians" and " Iranians".
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[quote=rab-k]Oh really, mr/ms 'joined today post count 1'... Where have you been all this time???
My first post, yes, because I felt that I was being represented without anyone asking my opinion.
The lunatic fringe at the airport today felt no need to denigrate Hezbollah, I can only surmise they support them, and therefore support their policy of launching attacks while using local Lebanese as a shield. Between that and reading todays papers about the "secret" FPLs and all that guff it gets a bit tiresome. No hard feelings Rab but we're all entitled to our opinions,
I felt the need to give mine. I have no problems with these flights and while there may be some among my colleagues who don't like the situation they most certainly have not declared their "uneasiness".
My first post, yes, because I felt that I was being represented without anyone asking my opinion.
The lunatic fringe at the airport today felt no need to denigrate Hezbollah, I can only surmise they support them, and therefore support their policy of launching attacks while using local Lebanese as a shield. Between that and reading todays papers about the "secret" FPLs and all that guff it gets a bit tiresome. No hard feelings Rab but we're all entitled to our opinions,
I felt the need to give mine. I have no problems with these flights and while there may be some among my colleagues who don't like the situation they most certainly have not declared their "uneasiness".
Last edited by ayrshireATCer; 30th Jul 2006 at 18:49.
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ayr..ATCer.
My unease manifested itself in my being distracted, albeit for a short period, by a feeling of anxiety about the end use of the bombs being carried by the aircraft I was controlling, whose cargo had just been brought to my attention.
Not being a head-shrink and therefore being unable to categorise the experience in a medical sense, I maintain that what I experienced for a short time was a sense of unease. This feeling reappeared whilst driving past one of these aircraft on the way home and it has remained at the back of my mind ever since.
Sure, such flights go on all the time and I have no problem with the use of such weapons against 'military' targets. However, when I read/hear about incidents like Qana, I can't help but wonder if the bombs used were on those flights.
The word "uneasiness" was presumably used by the journo concerned to describe the feelings of the ATCO/ATSA they themselves talked to. I'd say it is pretty well in the ball-park as to how I feel so chalk me up to not liking the situation and thereby declaring my "uneasiness".
Welcome to PPRuNe by the way
.
My unease manifested itself in my being distracted, albeit for a short period, by a feeling of anxiety about the end use of the bombs being carried by the aircraft I was controlling, whose cargo had just been brought to my attention.
Not being a head-shrink and therefore being unable to categorise the experience in a medical sense, I maintain that what I experienced for a short time was a sense of unease. This feeling reappeared whilst driving past one of these aircraft on the way home and it has remained at the back of my mind ever since.
Sure, such flights go on all the time and I have no problem with the use of such weapons against 'military' targets. However, when I read/hear about incidents like Qana, I can't help but wonder if the bombs used were on those flights.
The word "uneasiness" was presumably used by the journo concerned to describe the feelings of the ATCO/ATSA they themselves talked to. I'd say it is pretty well in the ball-park as to how I feel so chalk me up to not liking the situation and thereby declaring my "uneasiness".
Welcome to PPRuNe by the way
.
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Whilst some controllers may be 'uneasy' about the final destination of any 'hazardous cargo', I would hope all would want to know the cargo was hazardous so their actions could be 'informed' in an amergency in UK airspace.
Otherwise, why do we have statutory notification procedures?
I am sure the Fire Service (and a few others) would like a 'heads up' on the fact that several kilotonnes of bunker buster bombs was heading earthwards in a civilian-registered cargo plane. (also some could have depleted uranium tips!)
Otherwise, why do we have statutory notification procedures?
I am sure the Fire Service (and a few others) would like a 'heads up' on the fact that several kilotonnes of bunker buster bombs was heading earthwards in a civilian-registered cargo plane. (also some could have depleted uranium tips!)
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AyrshireATCer
Thank you for your opinion. Well done - very gungho, very macho
Can I just test the depth of your ease?
How at ease would you be if (hypotheticaly) it was confirmed that one of the bombs that was on board one of these flights that you had given a nice direct routing to (and wished a hearty 'good-day' to), had been used on Qana, killing those children?
Would that give you a warm, rosey glow inside?
Or, taken to its extreme...
Imagine an Israeli air force F16 stopping off at Prestwick, fresh from a shopping trip to the U.S., with a nice batch of shiney, new cluster bombs mounted under each wing.
The F16 departs Prestwick, you ident it and give it climb. You then notice that the destination code on the strip reads 'ZZZZ' and there is no routing info. beyond DCS.
You query the pilot (should I send it to SUBUK or LAKEY)?
He absent-mindedly declares that his destination is a small place near Beirut (anytown, Lebanon),to do a low approach and go around; whilst also dropping his cluster bombs (by the way), before heading back to Lod Air Force Base. He also gives his e.t.a. for destination.
You thank him, re-route him via NEW, then; to help him out (he was very polite), you route him direct to OTR.
You give him to Montrose.
Job well done.
A few hours later you are in the restroom.
You are watching live coverage of the conflict in Lebanon on BBC News 24.
You casually glance at your watch - you realise your break has just come to an end.
You are just leaving the restroom when suddenly your attention is drawn back to the TV.
The live broadcast is violently interrupted by dozens of explosions reigning down on the small town featured in the broadcast.
You suddenly realise that this is the town that the F16 pilot had mentioned and; what is more, he is a couple of minutes early on his e.t.a.!
As the cameraman pans over the scene of devastation and mutilated corpses are you thinking, '2hit! I'm glad I gave him that direct routing, otherwise I would have missed all the action'??
Still sleeping comfortably at night??
Or are you beginning to feel something now?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, calling me an anti-Semite or similar, feel free to substitute a Syrian/Iranian Mig for an F16 and a town in Israel. I still wouldn't be at 'ease' with the situation.
Thank you for your opinion. Well done - very gungho, very macho
Can I just test the depth of your ease?
How at ease would you be if (hypotheticaly) it was confirmed that one of the bombs that was on board one of these flights that you had given a nice direct routing to (and wished a hearty 'good-day' to), had been used on Qana, killing those children?
Would that give you a warm, rosey glow inside?
Or, taken to its extreme...
Imagine an Israeli air force F16 stopping off at Prestwick, fresh from a shopping trip to the U.S., with a nice batch of shiney, new cluster bombs mounted under each wing.
The F16 departs Prestwick, you ident it and give it climb. You then notice that the destination code on the strip reads 'ZZZZ' and there is no routing info. beyond DCS.
You query the pilot (should I send it to SUBUK or LAKEY)?
He absent-mindedly declares that his destination is a small place near Beirut (anytown, Lebanon),to do a low approach and go around; whilst also dropping his cluster bombs (by the way), before heading back to Lod Air Force Base. He also gives his e.t.a. for destination.
You thank him, re-route him via NEW, then; to help him out (he was very polite), you route him direct to OTR.
You give him to Montrose.
Job well done.
A few hours later you are in the restroom.
You are watching live coverage of the conflict in Lebanon on BBC News 24.
You casually glance at your watch - you realise your break has just come to an end.
You are just leaving the restroom when suddenly your attention is drawn back to the TV.
The live broadcast is violently interrupted by dozens of explosions reigning down on the small town featured in the broadcast.
You suddenly realise that this is the town that the F16 pilot had mentioned and; what is more, he is a couple of minutes early on his e.t.a.!
As the cameraman pans over the scene of devastation and mutilated corpses are you thinking, '2hit! I'm glad I gave him that direct routing, otherwise I would have missed all the action'??
Still sleeping comfortably at night??
Or are you beginning to feel something now?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, calling me an anti-Semite or similar, feel free to substitute a Syrian/Iranian Mig for an F16 and a town in Israel. I still wouldn't be at 'ease' with the situation.
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In the US it is normal for ANY flight that is carrying explosives of any kind to have it in remarks of the flight plan so that the controllers can inform emergency services in the event of an aircraft emergency. There is nothing blatant about it, it is what we do... We do this with both mil and civil...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
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Originally Posted by Pheasant Plucker
AyrshireATCer
Thank you for your opinion. Well done - very gungho, very macho
Can I just test the depth of your ease?
How at ease would you be if (hypotheticaly) it was confirmed that one of the bombs that was on board one of these flights that you had given a nice direct routing to (and wished a hearty 'good-day' to), had been used on Qana, killing those children?
Would that give you a warm, rosey glow inside?
Or, taken to its extreme...
Imagine an Israeli air force F16 stopping off at Prestwick, fresh from a shopping trip to the U.S., with a nice batch of shiney, new cluster bombs mounted under each wing.
The F16 departs Prestwick, you ident it and give it climb. You then notice that the destination code on the strip reads 'ZZZZ' and there is no routing info. beyond DCS.
You query the pilot (should I send it to SUBUK or LAKEY)?
He absent-mindedly declares that his destination is a small place near Beirut (anytown, Lebanon),to do a low approach and go around; whilst also dropping his cluster bombs (by the way), before heading back to Lod Air Force Base. He also gives his e.t.a. for destination.
You thank him, re-route him via NEW, then; to help him out (he was very polite), you route him direct to OTR.
You give him to Montrose.
Job well done.
A few hours later you are in the restroom.
You are watching live coverage of the conflict in Lebanon on BBC News 24.
You casually glance at your watch - you realise your break has just come to an end.
You are just leaving the restroom when suddenly your attention is drawn back to the TV.
The live broadcast is violently interrupted by dozens of explosions reigning down on the small town featured in the broadcast.
You suddenly realise that this is the town that the F16 pilot had mentioned and; what is more, he is a couple of minutes early on his e.t.a.!
As the cameraman pans over the scene of devastation and mutilated corpses are you thinking, '2hit! I'm glad I gave him that direct routing, otherwise I would have missed all the action'??
Still sleeping comfortably at night??
Or are you beginning to feel something now?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, calling me an anti-Semite or similar, feel free to substitute a Syrian/Iranian Mig for an F16 and a town in Israel. I still wouldn't be at 'ease' with the situation.
Thank you for your opinion. Well done - very gungho, very macho
Can I just test the depth of your ease?
How at ease would you be if (hypotheticaly) it was confirmed that one of the bombs that was on board one of these flights that you had given a nice direct routing to (and wished a hearty 'good-day' to), had been used on Qana, killing those children?
Would that give you a warm, rosey glow inside?
Or, taken to its extreme...
Imagine an Israeli air force F16 stopping off at Prestwick, fresh from a shopping trip to the U.S., with a nice batch of shiney, new cluster bombs mounted under each wing.
The F16 departs Prestwick, you ident it and give it climb. You then notice that the destination code on the strip reads 'ZZZZ' and there is no routing info. beyond DCS.
You query the pilot (should I send it to SUBUK or LAKEY)?
He absent-mindedly declares that his destination is a small place near Beirut (anytown, Lebanon),to do a low approach and go around; whilst also dropping his cluster bombs (by the way), before heading back to Lod Air Force Base. He also gives his e.t.a. for destination.
You thank him, re-route him via NEW, then; to help him out (he was very polite), you route him direct to OTR.
You give him to Montrose.
Job well done.
A few hours later you are in the restroom.
You are watching live coverage of the conflict in Lebanon on BBC News 24.
You casually glance at your watch - you realise your break has just come to an end.
You are just leaving the restroom when suddenly your attention is drawn back to the TV.
The live broadcast is violently interrupted by dozens of explosions reigning down on the small town featured in the broadcast.
You suddenly realise that this is the town that the F16 pilot had mentioned and; what is more, he is a couple of minutes early on his e.t.a.!
As the cameraman pans over the scene of devastation and mutilated corpses are you thinking, '2hit! I'm glad I gave him that direct routing, otherwise I would have missed all the action'??
Still sleeping comfortably at night??
Or are you beginning to feel something now?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, calling me an anti-Semite or similar, feel free to substitute a Syrian/Iranian Mig for an F16 and a town in Israel. I still wouldn't be at 'ease' with the situation.
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Originally Posted by Scott Voigt
Wow such flaming... Y'all didn't seem to mind shipments to the UK when you were going to the Falklands...
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Scott
My reaction to the situation was pretty much along the lines of what rab-k describes (as stated in previous posts).
We all know '2hit happens' and people get hurt.
But to casually brush it off without a second thought... I find mistifying
My reaction to the situation was pretty much along the lines of what rab-k describes (as stated in previous posts).
We all know '2hit happens' and people get hurt.
But to casually brush it off without a second thought... I find mistifying
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'P-P'
I guess ayr...ATCer can make that 2 chalked up on the "uneasiness" tally.
Scott - I recall us having enough 'dumb bombs' of our own to do the job, but the SHAR boys found the AIM-9L Sidewinders most helpful, thank you!
Again, I have no problem with legitimate 'military' targets, but soft civilian targets, whatever the excuse, are unacceptable - on both sides!
I guess ayr...ATCer can make that 2 chalked up on the "uneasiness" tally.
Scott - I recall us having enough 'dumb bombs' of our own to do the job, but the SHAR boys found the AIM-9L Sidewinders most helpful, thank you!
Again, I have no problem with legitimate 'military' targets, but soft civilian targets, whatever the excuse, are unacceptable - on both sides!
This all reminds me of the night before the 1967 Six Day War started, when an Israeli military Stratocruiser (freight conversion) landed at RAF Waddington presumably to pick up assorted weaponry. It departed in the early hours via Rome. All presumably with the connivance of HMG, unless a local Milo Minderbinder was doing some sort of deal. Not sure which party was in power. How do I know this? I saw the flight plans.
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Thread Drift Warning!!!
I see the similarly themed "Prestwick" thread on 'JB' has 'disappeared'.
With that in mind, perhaps we'd better stick to the theme of "uneasiness" of those in ATC re. what they find they may be controlling on a day to day basis, in particular the 'bomb flights' being discussed here.
Incidentally, the only other time I have felt similar unease was when working the Fuerza Aérea de Chile 'getaway car' with a certain Gen Pinochet sat down the back.
I see the similarly themed "Prestwick" thread on 'JB' has 'disappeared'.
With that in mind, perhaps we'd better stick to the theme of "uneasiness" of those in ATC re. what they find they may be controlling on a day to day basis, in particular the 'bomb flights' being discussed here.
Incidentally, the only other time I have felt similar unease was when working the Fuerza Aérea de Chile 'getaway car' with a certain Gen Pinochet sat down the back.
Last edited by rab-k; 31st Jul 2006 at 10:29.
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Pheasant Plucker, I am not losing any sleep unless you're questioning my professionalism by routing said a/c direct without coordinating.
Horrendous things happen on a daily basis all over the world, I don't feel I have any great importance to affect the outcome. Those that do - carry on trying, you'll be a while.
Horrendous things happen on a daily basis all over the world, I don't feel I have any great importance to affect the outcome. Those that do - carry on trying, you'll be a while.
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I don't see what the big deal is with this. Its going to happen anyways no matter what you do. It's like saying everybody in Britain has helped innocent children die in Iraq because we pay our taxes, or that because a guy works in a factory that makes transistors that eventually end up in F16 avionics he is somehow responsible for the innocent lives that the F16 will claim.
Its going to happen no matter what you do!
Its going to happen no matter what you do!
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Originally Posted by NeoDude
Its going to happen no matter what you do!
Originally Posted by ayrshireATCer
I don't feel I have any great importance to affect the outcome.
However, with that in mind, it does NOT prevent your average humble ATCO from taking the view that they do not feel comfortable controlling US arms supply flights making pit-stops at UK Civil/USAF/RAF aerodromes with weapons which the IDF have a nasty habit of dropping on unarmed civilians whilst supposedly attempting to take out the 'bad guys'.
I believe that was what we were discussing. Not whether I nor anyone else in our business can do anything about it in the context of our occupation.
If the IDF want to use a kind of 'scorched-earth' policy to create a 'buffer zone', cleansed of its resident civilian population amongst which Hezbo' guerrillas could operate, then there ain't a great deal I can do about it. But it doesn't mean that I enjoy, in my own insignificant and indirect way, feeling a part of that process.
Finally, in returning to the main focus of this thread, could I therefore declare my "uneasiness" duly declared!
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Scott
Ronnie Reagan couldn't see the sense in fighting over "a bunch of rocks" and had to be persuaded as to where the loyalty of the US should lie.
It appears that Dubya has NO doubt where the US sympathies should lie and as such Olmert has another 13 or so days left to kill Lebanese civilians.
The whole damn thing is immoral....
Y'all didn't seem to mind shipments to the UK when you were going to the Falklands...
Ronnie Reagan couldn't see the sense in fighting over "a bunch of rocks" and had to be persuaded as to where the loyalty of the US should lie.
It appears that Dubya has NO doubt where the US sympathies should lie and as such Olmert has another 13 or so days left to kill Lebanese civilians.
The whole damn thing is immoral....