Problems at Liverpool ATC?
niknak
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Red Rum is more likely to appear in Liverpool next week than NATS getting the Liverpool ATC contract at anytime this century.
Although there's a shortage of qualified and experienced ATCOs throughout the UK, there are plenty of wanabees available whom Peel could train (admittedly at some cost) at any of their airports over the next few years, move to Liverpool and retain under bonding.
Then there's the small number of ATCOs who constantly talk about moving and go nowhere....
Although there's a shortage of qualified and experienced ATCOs throughout the UK, there are plenty of wanabees available whom Peel could train (admittedly at some cost) at any of their airports over the next few years, move to Liverpool and retain under bonding.
Then there's the small number of ATCOs who constantly talk about moving and go nowhere....
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I did get told that the whole Doncaster Radar thing was the contentious issue at LJLA...all that RASing & RISing with little protection and less back-up. It would be interesting to hear from those in the know how much of an issue it really is. Who watches who's back up there? 
Tori
Tori
niknak
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Alpha,
I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.
I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.
What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.
Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.
I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.
I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.
What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.
Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.
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Originally Posted by niknak
Alpha,
I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.
I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.
What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.
Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.
I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.
I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.
What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.
Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.
So what's the problem with RASing and RISing in class G airspace? I've been doing it for over 30 years without the benefit of controlled airspace. The problem with newly trained ATCO's nowadays is they can't hack it without controlled airspace; course the bean counters want as cheap an ATCO as possible so they employ those who've failed with other providers but have passed the approved course. If Peel were to provide some form of LARS service around the Doncaster area, they would create something approaching a 'known traffic' environment making it safer for everyone.
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Bonding
That is indeed correct, Dizzee Rascal, bonding is legally not enforceable, although I know that a lot of units like to think it is and make you sign a piece of paper. I suppose ATC it is a small world and word would get around quickly if you were to leave before your 'bonding period' runs out without paying up...
However, as an aside, NATS don't bond you because they know it is not legal and couldn't be enforced.
However, as an aside, NATS don't bond you because they know it is not legal and couldn't be enforced.
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"Just as a point but according to the Citizens Advise Bureau, these Bonds are not worth the paper they are written on."
I've heard that time after time...so why do the airlines do it if it gets them, nowhere?
Chevvron - I take your point about RAS & RIS (although I don't think the specific services have been around 30 years...about 20 maybe
)...the point that was raised to me was that there is a significant amount of military traffic whizzing around that makes it more 'sporty' than some other neighbourhoods. It also raises the age-old question of driving fare-paying passengers through the FIR mixing it, when they thought their ticket promised them some protection!! 
tori
I've heard that time after time...so why do the airlines do it if it gets them, nowhere?
Chevvron - I take your point about RAS & RIS (although I don't think the specific services have been around 30 years...about 20 maybe
)...the point that was raised to me was that there is a significant amount of military traffic whizzing around that makes it more 'sporty' than some other neighbourhoods. It also raises the age-old question of driving fare-paying passengers through the FIR mixing it, when they thought their ticket promised them some protection!! tori
If you can create something approaching a 'known traffic' environment, it will provide some measure of protection. Sure there'll always be the ones who prefer to operate keeping their own lookout- which they're quite entitled to in class G (and the military are included here) but a lot of pilots here in the congested south east like to be talking to someone, especially when that someone can potentially help if that fan thing on the nose stops, or they become 'temporarily uncertain of position'.
The RASing and RISing of Doncaster is not in itself an issue, Chevvron, and while some of the controllers are newly trained, there are no second rate ones here I assure you. Is there a difference between an approved course and the CATC course? I assume that is what you mean by "other providers".
And hacking it without controlled airspace has been a challenge to say the least in what must be some of the busiest class G in the UK.
And hacking it without controlled airspace has been a challenge to say the least in what must be some of the busiest class G in the UK.
I wasn't intending to criticise the abilities of those who do DSA Radar, but effective use of ATSOCA really only comes with experience, as it is rarely if ever taught on any approved course, whether at CATC or any other college, so ideally it should be controllers with prior experience of ATSOCA who should be doing it. I've read one or two of the incident reports filed for DSA, and thought 'well why didn't they say/do xxx?'; but as I said, it all boils down to experience. Course I don't know what the radar coverage is like; is it still remoted from Waddington or somewhere?
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LJLA Jobs
Not wishing to fan the fire but.............. I know of a military controller who is thinking of leaving the RAF and phoned LJLA about a post in ATC, controlling, assisting and the like.
He's been sent an application form for a job as an ATCO.
He's been sent an application form for a job as an ATCO.
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As it stands, there will be 3 vacancies advertised at some point for Liverpool, although I understand a pssible 4th is in the pipeline. The adverts may not appear until the new year, for financial reasons.
Oh and on the "RAS in class G is easy" subject, I'd suggest you have a look at the map, or have a visit first! There is one controller at Doncaster (with an assistant) providing a service to all the transits and any Doncaster IFR traffic. There are 3 airfields within 3 miles of final approach (2 adjacent to 10 mile final for 02, 1 adjacent to 6 mile final for 20) firing off light aircraft directly towards the Doncaster final approach with no warning or coordination, and the RAF's radar enjoys more annual leave than a NATS Director, and just like NATS Directors, it does not book its leave in advance (in other words it fails or is removed from service with no notice with frightening regularity)! In addition, the planning consent for the airport stipulates (for noise reasons) that runway 20 is the preferred runway for arrivals and 02 for Departures, and further stipulates that 80% of their departures must go off 02! Oh, and while playing runway roulette, the tower does not have an ATM (DFTI in old money) at their disposal. Still think all Class G operations are equal chevvron?
Additional: Oh, I forgot to mention that there is no D/F available either. Deemed an unnecessary expense.
Oh and on the "RAS in class G is easy" subject, I'd suggest you have a look at the map, or have a visit first! There is one controller at Doncaster (with an assistant) providing a service to all the transits and any Doncaster IFR traffic. There are 3 airfields within 3 miles of final approach (2 adjacent to 10 mile final for 02, 1 adjacent to 6 mile final for 20) firing off light aircraft directly towards the Doncaster final approach with no warning or coordination, and the RAF's radar enjoys more annual leave than a NATS Director, and just like NATS Directors, it does not book its leave in advance (in other words it fails or is removed from service with no notice with frightening regularity)! In addition, the planning consent for the airport stipulates (for noise reasons) that runway 20 is the preferred runway for arrivals and 02 for Departures, and further stipulates that 80% of their departures must go off 02! Oh, and while playing runway roulette, the tower does not have an ATM (DFTI in old money) at their disposal. Still think all Class G operations are equal chevvron?
Additional: Oh, I forgot to mention that there is no D/F available either. Deemed an unnecessary expense.
Last edited by the hunted one; 26th Jul 2006 at 09:44.