BHX ATC - Slightly weird
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ukatco_535 (particularly),
I did not intend this to be a slagging match and certainly have not expected to be analysed by some atco as to what type of a person I might or might not be.
Stick to your atco facts and no further. I have not attempted nor am I interested in discribing your possible character (although it does sound a bit defensive/angry) on these pages so wind your neck in.
I read with some relief that there may be a small group of people understanding my dilemma, thank you to those.
I did not intend this to be a slagging match and certainly have not expected to be analysed by some atco as to what type of a person I might or might not be.
Stick to your atco facts and no further. I have not attempted nor am I interested in discribing your possible character (although it does sound a bit defensive/angry) on these pages so wind your neck in.
I read with some relief that there may be a small group of people understanding my dilemma, thank you to those.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: surrey
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mentaleena
Welcome back. Not defensive, certainly not angry just telling it as it is - you are the one who sounds like they are on a tirade.
At least you acknowledge that what I and the other ATCOs are saying is fact.
As I said in a previous post, if you had come onto the forum asking in a civil manner instead of straight away saying the controller was wrong, you will have got a more reasoned response, although the facts regarding flying procedures would still be the same.
It may well have been the case that the ATCO was wrong, but there are ways of going about things.
From your first post
And from your second post
Not exactly the best way of endearing yourself to anyone.
The controller concerned may have (rightly or wrongly) taken the manner you said
as condescending - along the lines of "do we have to do everything ourselves?".
If she did find it condescending she may have replied as she did as a quick retort to 'put you back in your place' (unprofessional, but we are all human)
We as ATCOs are here to help you, the pilots, conduct a safe, efficient and orderly flight. You have to do that for one aircraft, we have to do it for many. I think the majority here were trying to let you know that if you hear nothing else, you follow standard procedures.
No statement of intentions such as
overrides that fact.
As a little bit of people management, why did you not say something along the lines of "XYZ approaching the CHASE hold".
This would serve as a gentle reminder (we do sometimes momentarily forget A/C are doing particular things though in this instance it does not seem to have been the case) and the controller would then have either issued a heading or told you to standby or even enter the hold.
If you had been told to enter the hold so that the controller could sort out the wandering aircraft problem it would not have been ideal for either you nor the controller especially as there would have been no traffic reason. However it would have been safe - the first aim in both your and an ATCOs profession.
Welcome back. Not defensive, certainly not angry just telling it as it is - you are the one who sounds like they are on a tirade.
Stick to your atco facts
As I said in a previous post, if you had come onto the forum asking in a civil manner instead of straight away saying the controller was wrong, you will have got a more reasoned response, although the facts regarding flying procedures would still be the same.
It may well have been the case that the ATCO was wrong, but there are ways of going about things.
From your first post
That was well out of order.
She was out of order, but I didn't take up the challenge at the time
The rest of you don't be so "pouncy" and so overcorrect.
So please revise your procedures
The controller concerned may have (rightly or wrongly) taken the manner you said
"Should we just fly towards base leg for 33???"
If she did find it condescending she may have replied as she did as a quick retort to 'put you back in your place' (unprofessional, but we are all human)
We as ATCOs are here to help you, the pilots, conduct a safe, efficient and orderly flight. You have to do that for one aircraft, we have to do it for many. I think the majority here were trying to let you know that if you hear nothing else, you follow standard procedures.
No statement of intentions such as
Good afternoon XXX, vectors for 33 number 2
As a little bit of people management, why did you not say something along the lines of "XYZ approaching the CHASE hold".
This would serve as a gentle reminder (we do sometimes momentarily forget A/C are doing particular things though in this instance it does not seem to have been the case) and the controller would then have either issued a heading or told you to standby or even enter the hold.
If you had been told to enter the hold so that the controller could sort out the wandering aircraft problem it would not have been ideal for either you nor the controller especially as there would have been no traffic reason. However it would have been safe - the first aim in both your and an ATCOs profession.
Last edited by ukatco_535; 22nd Mar 2006 at 12:20.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ukatco_535
Because I genuinely thought that once ATC say "vectors" it means just that!
I've been flying for 16 years commercially and this has only just come up. In other words whenever I was told "vectors" in the past I have never had to do anything else but follow ATC from there on. That's what I think most of my colleagues think too! Training has never encompassed things like these for us. So it's not clear, in fact it's outright misleading if "vectors" means go and hold perhaps!
I did say to squidge as a reminder "should we fly towards base leg?" and we knew there was no one else there to affect immediately.
So to summarise, ATC procedures are not taught to pilots like ATC think. We often learn from each other as we "grow up". This was one of those days, when after 16 years something I thought was white, is in fact black!
Mentaleena
As a little bit of people management, why did you not say something along the lines of "XYZ approaching the CHASE hold".
I've been flying for 16 years commercially and this has only just come up. In other words whenever I was told "vectors" in the past I have never had to do anything else but follow ATC from there on. That's what I think most of my colleagues think too! Training has never encompassed things like these for us. So it's not clear, in fact it's outright misleading if "vectors" means go and hold perhaps!
I did say to squidge as a reminder "should we fly towards base leg?" and we knew there was no one else there to affect immediately.
So to summarise, ATC procedures are not taught to pilots like ATC think. We often learn from each other as we "grow up". This was one of those days, when after 16 years something I thought was white, is in fact black!
Mentaleena
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So hopefully you now acknowledge what '535' has been saying has been a very reasoned and correct response to your initial complaint?
None of us ever stop learning, many people pay lip-service to that statement but it really is true. You've learnt a bit about ATC procedures, and our ATCO colleagues here have learnt that not every pilot in their airspace necessarily has the same understanding of those procedures as they.
Some suggestions from a fellow commercial pilot:
1) Don't assert that just because you thought it was so, that the rest of your colleagues think that way too! Some of us strive to maintain our IFR flying standards!
2) Take some of your time off to visit your local ATC unit, not just for 5 mins up the tower, but (if you can arrange it) a whole morning/afternoon shift - you will see first-hand so many of the situations which appear inexplicable from the other side of the R/T, and gain a better understanding of the airspace in which you operate and enhanced Situational Awareness next time you fly.
3) see 2). So important that I mentioned it twice. I really, really recommend it.
4) Talk to your company about offering familiarisation flights to local ATCOs - my company does, and they have a 'Tiny' BHX base - perhaps we are colleagues? If so, PM and I can explain how to arrange it. Also very useful.
Hopefully something positive can result from what appears to have been initially a negative experience for you.
All the best,
GL
None of us ever stop learning, many people pay lip-service to that statement but it really is true. You've learnt a bit about ATC procedures, and our ATCO colleagues here have learnt that not every pilot in their airspace necessarily has the same understanding of those procedures as they.
Some suggestions from a fellow commercial pilot:
1) Don't assert that just because you thought it was so, that the rest of your colleagues think that way too! Some of us strive to maintain our IFR flying standards!
2) Take some of your time off to visit your local ATC unit, not just for 5 mins up the tower, but (if you can arrange it) a whole morning/afternoon shift - you will see first-hand so many of the situations which appear inexplicable from the other side of the R/T, and gain a better understanding of the airspace in which you operate and enhanced Situational Awareness next time you fly.
3) see 2). So important that I mentioned it twice. I really, really recommend it.
4) Talk to your company about offering familiarisation flights to local ATCOs - my company does, and they have a 'Tiny' BHX base - perhaps we are colleagues? If so, PM and I can explain how to arrange it. Also very useful.
Hopefully something positive can result from what appears to have been initially a negative experience for you.
All the best,
GL
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gary has basically got in ahead of me there and said exactly what I was going to say. As a holder of a JAA ATPL I have a personal responsibility to maintain my own recurrent knowledge of all those things I studied for my ATPL exams - which certainly included a lot of information about ATC procedures.
Many other pilots I meet, however, have some large gaps in their understanding of how things work, covering a large spectrum from fuel planning requirements, to ATC related issues - such as the different services provided in the differing classes of airspace.
Many other pilots I meet, however, have some large gaps in their understanding of how things work, covering a large spectrum from fuel planning requirements, to ATC related issues - such as the different services provided in the differing classes of airspace.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: surrey
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably the most sensible comment in the whole thread
Gary Lager wrote
That applies to everyone me, Mentaleena, all the pilots ATCOs and everybody else.
One of the best ways to learn is to find out other peoples pesrpective - which is a great benefit of Pprune. Having the humility to ask questions in a manner that willnot be construed as aggresive or accusatory will always result in a more satisfactory response.
Gary Lager wrote
None of us ever stop learning, many people pay lip-service to that statement but it really is true
One of the best ways to learn is to find out other peoples pesrpective - which is a great benefit of Pprune. Having the humility to ask questions in a manner that willnot be construed as aggresive or accusatory will always result in a more satisfactory response.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mentaleena
ukatco_535
Because I genuinely thought that once ATC say "vectors" it means just that!
I've been flying for 16 years commercially and this has only just come up. In other words whenever I was told "vectors" in the past I have never had to do anything else but follow ATC from there on.
Because I genuinely thought that once ATC say "vectors" it means just that!
I've been flying for 16 years commercially and this has only just come up. In other words whenever I was told "vectors" in the past I have never had to do anything else but follow ATC from there on.
As stated previously you cannot be under vectors until one has been issued. During my training i used the phrase "continue towards XYZ, vectors ILS approach runway XY". In no circumstance did a pilot fly past a hold or query that he was to take up the hold. No heading was issued so the aircraft was not subject to Radar Vectors.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: leamington Spa
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
www.egbb.co.uk
Anyone who flies in and out of Brum on a regular or irregular basis please take the time to have a look at our ATC website (address above), its monitored frequently and has dedicated forums for discussing these sorts of issues,
Also download from it our operators briefing pack - designed to be read by you pilots and help you understand in plain language what we do and why it has to be done that way - hopefully a better understanding can be achieved through methods like this.
And please come over to the tower for a visit - we are a friendly bunch as many of you will already know. We ATCO's often take fam flights with you guys to learn from you so let us return the favour!!!
Hope to see you soon!!!
ps - all the best K, we'll miss you!!xx
Also download from it our operators briefing pack - designed to be read by you pilots and help you understand in plain language what we do and why it has to be done that way - hopefully a better understanding can be achieved through methods like this.
And please come over to the tower for a visit - we are a friendly bunch as many of you will already know. We ATCO's often take fam flights with you guys to learn from you so let us return the favour!!!
Hope to see you soon!!!
ps - all the best K, we'll miss you!!xx
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: surrey
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brain Fade
I assume that that comment was a little tongue in cheek!?!!
However it is our job to (help) stop you guys from having an incident (in the ONE aircraft that has at least 2 people controlling it) with any of the many others that one of us happen to be controlling at the same time.
It is a team effort – but yes, we do know that in an emergency situation, you are the one with it all to lose.
Having flown for the military in a genuine high workload cockpit and environment with none of the fancy aids available to commercial airliners I do know, in the main, what you guys do.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to drink coffee on console, unlike airline pilots.
Airline pilots who do not know and/or choose not to follow basic rules are the ones who are likely to spill their coffee at the very least, due to that fact that the chances are their lack of professionalism will have caused the incident they find themselves in!!
I assume that that comment was a little tongue in cheek!?!!
However it is our job to (help) stop you guys from having an incident (in the ONE aircraft that has at least 2 people controlling it) with any of the many others that one of us happen to be controlling at the same time.
It is a team effort – but yes, we do know that in an emergency situation, you are the one with it all to lose.
Having flown for the military in a genuine high workload cockpit and environment with none of the fancy aids available to commercial airliners I do know, in the main, what you guys do.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to drink coffee on console, unlike airline pilots.
Airline pilots who do not know and/or choose not to follow basic rules are the ones who are likely to spill their coffee at the very least, due to that fact that the chances are their lack of professionalism will have caused the incident they find themselves in!!
