Inverness Radar
niknak
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Surely a mistake? AFAIK they haven't got the money to buy a new radar yet, let alone ordered one. To get one in place and operational by 31-3-07 they'd have to be installing it on site NOW. 31-3-07 is supposed to be the operational date for the feed to a radar room at EGPE, not the new radar.
But in among all this there is also the question, what about controlled airspace? Sure, they won't get CAS until they have radar, but having radar - especially a feed from a head 25nm away - without CAS still leaves a lot to be desired. We now have announcements of yet more new routes - Southampton, NEMA, Belfast City - and CAA stats show Inverness handling more ATMs now than Bournemouth and DTV, both of which have CAS, and almost as many as Prestwick, which got its CAS back in 2003.
NS
But in among all this there is also the question, what about controlled airspace? Sure, they won't get CAS until they have radar, but having radar - especially a feed from a head 25nm away - without CAS still leaves a lot to be desired. We now have announcements of yet more new routes - Southampton, NEMA, Belfast City - and CAA stats show Inverness handling more ATMs now than Bournemouth and DTV, both of which have CAS, and almost as many as Prestwick, which got its CAS back in 2003.
NS
Firstly, radar with SSR is required for the entire opening hours of the airport with a guarantee that full staffing will be available.
Todays CAA stats count for nothing, DAP will consider such things when the above criteria is satisfied.
There are a miriad of organisations who have to be informed, consulted and kept updated, continuous proof of tis is required.
I doubt that HIAL have the nouse or competence to do the above, unless of course, they employ an outside contractor who knows what they are doing.
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NS
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Although Inverness is getting busier I don't believe that there is the density of other traffic in the area to justify CAS. Most of the military will be low level unless on approach to Kinloss or Lossie and they should be under a service from Lossie anyway. The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals suggests that the evidence is hoped to be gathered by increasing the exposure time over the Moray Firth to fast jets operating into and out of the Tain ranges. 
Wouldn't be surprised if some of the recent moves to close Tain were also being prompted by those with Inverness interests at heart. As it stands, radar at Inverness and a LARS service in the area should in itself, if properly applied and implemented, go a long way to maintaining safety in the area without the restrictions that CAS would inevitably bring.
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"The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals"
Would you care to qualify this?
Would you care to qualify this?
Last edited by Kiltie; 14th Oct 2006 at 09:54.
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And how many of the airproxes involved IFR inbounds declaring a visual? I suspect the reason they all fly the procedure now is because with increasing traffic levels and no radar the controllers can't be sure where conflicting traffic is. I've had one unnerving experience of flying a VFR transit across Inverness when an Easyjet was cleared for a visual, apparently descending through a hole in the cloud below which I was flying. The only thing giving accurate information on our proximity in that situation was the 737's TCAS. Not nice!
As for "Most of the military will be low level" that's precisely the problem - not speaking to anyone, VFR, autonomous, very fast, and likely to change heading/altitude at the drop of a hat. Not quite so much of a problem now than when Inverness had lots of SH360s, but ask Doncaster or Prestwick or Norwich controllers what it's like maintaining separation on FJs crossing the final approach path.
NS
As for "Most of the military will be low level" that's precisely the problem - not speaking to anyone, VFR, autonomous, very fast, and likely to change heading/altitude at the drop of a hat. Not quite so much of a problem now than when Inverness had lots of SH360s, but ask Doncaster or Prestwick or Norwich controllers what it's like maintaining separation on FJs crossing the final approach path.
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This is a fascinating thread, and one that doesn't surprise me having had to negotiate with HIAL in my previous Job.
It beggars belief that since 1998 when the requirement for radar service provision was called for by the airlines operating to Inverness (primarily to deconflict with Mil ac) and was agreed to by the RAF,CAA, NATS and MOD, as an interim measure, that no progress has been made by HIAL to sort themselves out.
However, since then the amount of IFR GAT traffic going into Inverness has continually grown and grown.
As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by.
It beggars belief that since 1998 when the requirement for radar service provision was called for by the airlines operating to Inverness (primarily to deconflict with Mil ac) and was agreed to by the RAF,CAA, NATS and MOD, as an interim measure, that no progress has been made by HIAL to sort themselves out.
However, since then the amount of IFR GAT traffic going into Inverness has continually grown and grown.
As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by.
Another problem for CAS at Inverness is within the consultation process; the major objector to ANY CAS in this area would be MOD, followed by BGA, both of whom would have to be included in the 'informal consultation' carried out prior to the actual application. I've done this process several times, yes it does take a lot of man-hours and however meticulous you are, DAP always find something amiss with your methodology eg insufficient environmental consultation.
Provision of LARS in class G airspace is suitable as a short term measure, especially if you can make it a service that's useful to all pilots; that would give some measure of a 'known traffic' environment, but wouldn't of course, mitigate for the low flyers suddenly pulling up from low level, 7001 or not!
Provision of LARS in class G airspace is suitable as a short term measure, especially if you can make it a service that's useful to all pilots; that would give some measure of a 'known traffic' environment, but wouldn't of course, mitigate for the low flyers suddenly pulling up from low level, 7001 or not!
Forgot to mention; any airspace change will take between a 8 and 12 months from commencement of informal consultation to implimentation, so if the process were started now, it might be established by July next year at the earliest provided there are no objections to hold up the procedure.
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True, the DofT and DAP have specific criterea for regulated airspace which they (AFAIK) won't publish, it's up to you to fulfil them without knowing what they are!!
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Controlled Airspace
Controlled airspace at Inverness is years away and could never happen anyway without a robust radar control service being in place. Heaven knows when Inverness will actually have the latter. No staff - no radar data - no radar equipment - no contracts - no approval........
If you are eagerly anticipating CAS at Inverness - expect a long wait
If the idea of CAS upsets you, then sleep well.
If you are eagerly anticipating CAS at Inverness - expect a long wait
If the idea of CAS upsets you, then sleep well.
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Inverness Radar
Posted by jack-oh :
"As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by."
Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?
"As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by."
Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?
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Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?
Yes of course there is much more military flying on weekdays but I reckon the regulators would be hard pushed to make a case for insisting that a radar service is available to aircraft operating into an aerodrome situated in Class G airspace.
I do not know what the current financial arrangements are between NATS,MOD and HIAL for the current letter of agreement. I would expect that the MOD receive appropriate remuneration from NATS since a portion of the ADR structure is delegated to Lossie by SCACC. However, for the last 8 years, HIAL have been sitting fat dumb and happy enjoying a 'free radar service' and ignoring the desperate need to modernise the aerodrome infrastructure.
New company motto - 'HIAL - Too little - Too late'
Last edited by Highland Director; 18th Oct 2006 at 18:01. Reason: Typo
niknak
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We had a similar agreement with a nearby military unit until early this year.
The difference being that the MOD paid us to have our bods on console there, this being considered to be the safest option given the adjacent nature of our two units.
The annual costs at the end of the contract worked out at about £98K per year.
If HIAL have been getting the services of Lossi' for nowt all these years, they're in for a big suprise - my man on the inside at the RAF dept' of deals tells me that the MOD bean counters are looking closely at the contract we had, in anticipation of presenting HIAL with the harsh facts of commercial reality.
The difference being that the MOD paid us to have our bods on console there, this being considered to be the safest option given the adjacent nature of our two units.
The annual costs at the end of the contract worked out at about £98K per year.
If HIAL have been getting the services of Lossi' for nowt all these years, they're in for a big suprise - my man on the inside at the RAF dept' of deals tells me that the MOD bean counters are looking closely at the contract we had, in anticipation of presenting HIAL with the harsh facts of commercial reality.
niknak
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NATS fund the Inverness task, as Highland Director said, it all comes down to the the deligation of airspace from NATS to Lossiemouth. The original deal was for the installation of an additional console (plus comms etc) at Lossiemouth and and the provision of 2 controllers, based on a 55hr week. At the time HIAL were not even in the loop as to funding, as the App task was not part of the deal. NATS tried to state that the task should simply come under the LARS banner and no additional funding was required. This didn't go down to well, but the whole contract was swept up with a much larger NATS/MOD deal and the details were lost in the haze. In effect, HIAL got the whole thing for free and has continued to do so. The original contract was tied up with so much more, that it was not revisited until the FMARS concept was agreed to. Once the deal was looked at afresh, and in light of continuing growth, the RAF has been trying to wrench itself out of the deal whilst still trying to be seen as the good guy and provider of a much valued service. That is why when HIAL stated that at a certain date it would be capable of providing its own service, all at Lossie and above were more than happy to draw stumps.
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right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?
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What right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?