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Inverness Radar

Old 17th Sep 2005, 19:21
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niknak
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Inverness Radar

Spies tell me that finally and not before time, Invernoo is getting it's own radar, SSR and Primary.
Spies also tell me that although NATS are carrying out the instillation etc, the project is being "overseen" by Marshall Aerospace.

True or not?

If so, why? NATs may have their shortcomings, but I've always had the highest regard for their Engineering Branch>

Should we be told?
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Old 17th Sep 2005, 19:44
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niknak

Shouldn't you ask HIAL rather than NATS?
More to the point....are there any jobs in the offing?
More and more to the point....is this connected to the Kinloss closure?
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Old 17th Sep 2005, 19:50
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Interesting stuff niknak.

I wonder if Inverness controllers will do the radar control or if it will be contracted out.

HIAL Sumburgh contracts out their radar control to NATS at Aberdeen.
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Old 18th Sep 2005, 19:15
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niknak
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I imagine that the primary radar head is going to be at Inverness Airport, and that the SSR will be either piped in to consoles at Inverness, or it could easily be remoted to Aberdeen.

If the radar head is at Inverness, they then have the option to contract it out to NATS for 3 years until they have enough trained atco's at Inverness to fulfill the task, then pipe in the SSR.

As far as I am aware, HIAL have no radar atco's, so either way they're in for an expensive few years.

If and when it eventually all located at Inverness it would be a groovy number as HIAL pay near enough the equivilant of NATS rates, and it's a nice place to pass the time of day.
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Old 18th Sep 2005, 20:54
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Unless you know otherwise Niknak I thought the decision had not bee made yet.

The options/rumours I have heard are

Primary radar head somewher on the Black Isle

HIAL to do radar in house ( problem no radar HIAL ATCO's )
NATS at Lossie ? then do it from Aberdeen a la Sumburgh ( to expensive ? )
SERCO from Lossie ( 2/1 favourite ? )

As far as ScACC is concerened as long as the new service providers understand radar vectoring and the basics of procedural separation it can only be a step in the right direction

However if the job is only going to consist of Inverness Radar you are going to get bored very quickly!

Rgds
AyrTC
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 08:47
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AyrTC,

Why would doing Inverness from Aberdeen be too expensive?
We already do more than Sumburgh from there,including Anglia and Brent which all use radar feeds from East Anglia,and Norway's sector.Taking another radar feed would be no problem.
We have approach radar controllers,but whether enough to do EGPE is debatable at the moment.It's also going to be a green field validation,so a lot of simulation would be needed before SRG would accept it.
As for your comment about ScACC being happy about any new service providers understanding Radar Vectoring etc :what a lot of cobblers.What do you think Approach Radar Controllers do all day? Yeah get a/c a damn sight closer together than any Area sector.Vector jets 3 miles behind helicopters on the ILS.Also, in our case setup a lot of headings for Tay/Moray to lessen their workload.
Perhaps we show you whats it's like to get the outbounds all on their own navigation,and watch ScACC sort it out
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 10:08
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Throw a Dyce calm down

I was just stating the options that were available to HIAL it may be too expensive to them I really do not give a toss who provides the service as long as it is a Civil ATC unit. The vectoring statement was about present vectoring or lack of it by Lossie not Aberdeen. Maybe my statement was not clear enough however I do not think your outburst has helped the image of Aberdeen but what would I know I'm just an Area Controller who sits on his ars£ all day and does sod all ( apparently ).

Rgds

AyrTC
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 11:01
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I'm watching this thread with interest. The Highland jungle drums have indeed been beating.

I'm sure that minimising costs will be the prime factor for HIAL.
As far as I'm aware, Hial have listened to 3 proposals for establishing approach radar at Inverness.

The parties invloved were NATS, Serco and Marshall Aerospace.

By all accounts, the proposal by NATS included siting of a new radar for Inverness, and feeding this to Aberdeen - nice and simple. However, the cost quoted by NATS caused the Highland eyes to water somewhat and I'm led to believe it's a non-starter.

Marshall propose aiding HIAL to provide the service in house. (ie, providing the shortfall of ATC staff in the initial stages, thereby enabling Hial ATCOs to complete the requisite APS course followed by validation at Cambridge so that Inverness is not a 'first tour'. SRG are twitchy at the thought of 'green' radar controllers going into a green field unit.

But who knows for sure? Hial are going into very much unchartered territory for them.

On a side note, I couldn't help but notice that as soon as the 'Inverness Radar' thread appeared, another thread appeared titled, 'End of Radar for ATC?' Made me chuckle anyway!

Last edited by Highland Director; 20th Sep 2005 at 14:06.
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 13:00
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Ayr TC,

Always Lossie to be very helpful as there is a lot of traffic works directly between the two units and never talks to ScACC.In fact 50% of our traffic never talks to ScACC ,and that is the traffic which is easiest dealt with.
As for the image of Aberdeen,well I think that NATS management and the unions have managed that beautifully over the years.ATCO2/3 farce,high turnover of staff,Downgraded to Band 2.Highest growth of the BAA airports in the last few months,and with oil price at an all time high,probably one of the most vital airports in the UK.Wait for the next Oil boom.What will we get;Probably Band 1 next!
As for your last statement then if you admit it then thats fine.Just wait til you get busted to Band 1.

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Old 19th Sep 2005, 15:48
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throw a dyce

Sounds like you're ready for another stint in the Far East!

Still, if they keep downgrading ABZ, we could always catch the train instead- if we could get a seat!!
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 20:29
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Hi Bekol,

I'm already in the Far East (of Scotland). You could be right though about revisiting the Plaza for another stint.Food for thought that my housing allowance in 99 is the same as take home pay here.We have to have TWR,APP,and APP Radar to be Unit Valid.Unlike lots of NATS units,which are single discipline for a lot more pay.
As for the original thread you can't get the job done without paying for it.HIAL already has a contract to provide Radar into EGPB done from Aberdeen.If they wish to go elsewhere for EGPE then that's up to them.It will be interesting to see the outcome,especially since it's a Green Field site.
In the meantime we wait to see what the Union/Management has stitched up for us in the next pay round.I would stick to the train or Megabus if my guess is correct.
Living on the edge.
TAD
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 20:57
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throw a dyce

What's the matter with you, get a life and stop the ranting. All you're doing is making yourself look stupid and trying to bring the rest of ABZ down to your level. I'm sure most of the readers will be able to work out that your comments are NOT what the majority of controllers up in the cold north subscribe to - in fact most of us enjoy the 'Ice Station' and have an excellent working relationship with adjacent ATC units.
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 21:07
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niknak
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The big jungle drum told me that Marshalls has definately got the "contract", although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know.
The Drum also told me that Marshalls had been given a contract to "oversee" the management of ATC at Norwich, so that would fit in with the Marshall idea of validating ATCOs elswhere before they go to, for example, Inverness.

Looks like competition for Serco & NATS.
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 21:57
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although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know.
Although many would consider Inverness to be in a remote part of the country, it has a lot to recommend it. If Marshalls (or anybody else) has got the contract, I reckon they wouldn't have too much of a problem filling the posts if they paid a reasonable amount, say NATS band 2 equivalent.

There are probably several NATS controllers (including one or two at ABZ) who would consider taking early retirement and moving to the Moray coast to enjoy the good-life.
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Old 20th Sep 2005, 07:52
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Throw a Dyce should maybe come to the sunny South....he'd have his eyes opened I suspect. 3 miles between aircraft is expected, not an exception. This goes on all day every day....it's hard work sustaining that level of traffic and concentration, believe me the salary doesn't compensate for the staff shortages and extra stress that ensues because of it.

Still, if he's keen maybe he should come down and try it!
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Old 20th Sep 2005, 16:22
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Funny.
I don't recall seeing too many helicopters coming down the ILS at Heathrow the last time I was there.
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Old 23rd Sep 2005, 21:16
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D80/90,
You obviously can't get what I said.I stated that I have an excellent working relationship with Lossie,and ScATCC can be interesting but I help them out a lot.As for Ice Station,then it does have a history which isn't pleasant,and everything stated there was fact,like or not.If ABZ has a reputation for being difficult as far as ScATCC is concerned then that's the reason.

Heathrowinnit,

Sorry mate but my eyes don't need opened.Work in the FE with the big stuff,in an airport the same as LL and got twice $ as much as NATS offers.Keen? Well offer me HK rates,paid accomodation,travel every cycle, a company car, and who knows.Anyway you lot ain't interested as I'm over 40.

Bekol,
You're right about not too many wopters on the ILS at LL.Didn't see too many Tornados up their backsides either.Or R22's in the circuit etc.

Anyway I will stop my "rantings'' and get a life.How about some beers in the plaza soon?
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Old 24th Sep 2005, 12:52
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Over the hill at 40!!

I'm surprised to hear that NATS won't take you down South if you're over 40....I can assure you that this is unlikely (personal experience). If you want to get here I suggest you apply and then see if there is an age restriction.

With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!)
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Old 24th Sep 2005, 13:19
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...of course Marshalls is run by an ex-serco GM and an ex-serco Safety Manager. How good's the service going to be?
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Old 24th Sep 2005, 15:57
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With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!)
Touche.
Lets put Mainland Chinese airspace, operating metric levels and radar sep in km, speaking mainly Putonghua, 8 miles to the north and west and see how well they go though. ( sorry couldn't resist!)
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