How stable is EFPS?
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Gonzo,
That is the issue that many of us had before we went live. The system (I think) can be considered reliable with the NAS link and all the other kit that interfaces with it. From that point of view we were the guinea pigs and you don't have that concern, it IS stable and very reliable. I still have grave concerns over your lack of contingency. We have had no cause to use it in three months or so but past performance is no indication of future performance..........BUT....if it goes tits up, and lets face it, for any number of unforseen circumstances it could, you NEED some kind of back up. I cannot believe as our esteemed moderator says that the safety case does not provide for this eventuality. Seriously guys, get it sorted. EFPS is a damned good system, easy to use, easy to learn and when you get used to it, generally a labour saving device but nothing is perfect. With paper strips, as you all know, nobody can take them away when the kit fails. With electronics, if the screen dies or both servers have simultaneous epileptic fits, however unlikely and we all know that **** happens, YOU NEED A BACKUP.
OK. I think point made, back in my box now.....
That is the issue that many of us had before we went live. The system (I think) can be considered reliable with the NAS link and all the other kit that interfaces with it. From that point of view we were the guinea pigs and you don't have that concern, it IS stable and very reliable. I still have grave concerns over your lack of contingency. We have had no cause to use it in three months or so but past performance is no indication of future performance..........BUT....if it goes tits up, and lets face it, for any number of unforseen circumstances it could, you NEED some kind of back up. I cannot believe as our esteemed moderator says that the safety case does not provide for this eventuality. Seriously guys, get it sorted. EFPS is a damned good system, easy to use, easy to learn and when you get used to it, generally a labour saving device but nothing is perfect. With paper strips, as you all know, nobody can take them away when the kit fails. With electronics, if the screen dies or both servers have simultaneous epileptic fits, however unlikely and we all know that **** happens, YOU NEED A BACKUP.
OK. I think point made, back in my box now.....
Ohcirrej
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or both servers have simultaneous epileptic fits, however unlikely
And it wasn't just the tower
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Vlad, I know your system works as it stands now. However, ours will be on different servers, with (maybe) different processors, different memory, different drivers for hardware, different interfaces with BAA for stand information etc. How do we know that all that won't cause a conflict?
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I take your point but I cannot see why vastly different kit would be used (but then again its that common sense word again) when what we have is fairly well tried and trusted. There will always be an element of doubt when the switch is thrown and I believe that if it doesn't go when they hit the button then there is a window of a couple of hours when it can be switched back (does EFPS intro coincide with your house move? if so, disregard my last !). The most important thing for LL & KK controllers is to accept that it is coming, learn as much as possible about it and then try and influence what goes on from a position of knowledge rather than a lot of what happened here with a number of frightened cavemen banging sticks and chanting incantations around the fire !!!
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Gonzo,
fella I've bit my lip long and hard about this for a while.
Where are you getting your information from? Are you just making it up.
Absolute rubbish, it's all built to the same spec. The SS KK and LL systems will be identical in the above respect
There are two independant Uninteruptable power supplies for the system, the odds on the these both simultanousley failing are as low as everyone giving birth to a ginger baby.
Each installation will have two data mangers (servers) one running back up to the other at the same time, so if it fails it will auto kick in and you won't notice a thing.
Sorry are we in lala land again. Who told you this was it one of the cleaners polishing trap 2 whilst you had a dump in 3?
Each unit will have this contingency as it is part of the spec and safety case.
Seriousley mate, I know your watch didn't have the most productive of visits to EGSS prior to 'O' date, but the system works. Suggest you go and speak to the people involved with the project and not make uninformed conjecture on here.
Make no mistake EFPS introduction at EGLL is going to be a difficult process due to the complexity of the operation and the requirement upon us ATCOs to change oh no I said it. But it is coming so I suggest you get involved with the way it's going to be implemented constructively.
Apologies for the rant , but I'm bored of hearing people on the unit moan moan and not do anything about it.
I haven't even had a drink today.
fella I've bit my lip long and hard about this for a while.
Where are you getting your information from? Are you just making it up.
I know your system works as it stands now. However, ours will be on different servers, with (maybe) different processors, different memory, different drivers for hardware
There are two independant Uninteruptable power supplies for the system, the odds on the these both simultanousley failing are as low as everyone giving birth to a ginger baby.
Each installation will have two data mangers (servers) one running back up to the other at the same time, so if it fails it will auto kick in and you won't notice a thing.
We are not getting any contingency, apparently.
No laptop.
No printer
Each unit will have this contingency as it is part of the spec and safety case.
Seriousley mate, I know your watch didn't have the most productive of visits to EGSS prior to 'O' date, but the system works. Suggest you go and speak to the people involved with the project and not make uninformed conjecture on here.
Make no mistake EFPS introduction at EGLL is going to be a difficult process due to the complexity of the operation and the requirement upon us ATCOs to change oh no I said it. But it is coming so I suggest you get involved with the way it's going to be implemented constructively.
Apologies for the rant , but I'm bored of hearing people on the unit moan moan and not do anything about it.
I haven't even had a drink today.
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Yellow, thanks for your reply. All information I have on EFPS is from Stansted itself or from our Ops.
Ok, that's why I put 'maybe' in there.
So when EFPS gets installed into the new tower, it'll be on exactly the same brand/type computers with exactly the same hardware setup as at SS? If that's the case then I will gladly concede the point.
What about the BAA stand information? Is that all sorted?
Ok. Good. I had been told that this wasn't the case.
And it is a fact that no more blank paper strips have been ordered...'because you won't need them in the new tower'. Maybe someone should tell the person responsible!
Shame, would improve the world no end! 
I have been, believe me. However, with all due respect to those involved, one operational ATCO (plus Ops ATCO) and the Manager 'Projects' is nowhere near enough people working on Heathrow side. Two people? How many ATCOs did Toronto have working on it prior to introduction? Even though all those involved are making great efforts, the very fact it's a small group means the watches are going to be more resistant, purely because they're not included. Added to the fact that nobody tells us anything, and when I do get some information from Ops about it, then spread it around the watch, I get singled out because what I was told 'wasn't for public consumption'!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeeez, it's like a whole big secret!!!!!
The onus is put on the operational ATCOs to go to SS on our days off, go down and talk to Ops during our breaks, when I have 101 other things to do, as well as have a break, and if we don't we're told we should stop complaining.
It is symptomatic of the whole relationship between Ops and the coal face over the past few years. In my mind, ATCOS should be able to go to Ops, either in the Tech Com or not, and say 'we need this/this piece of kit needs this function/how can we achieve this?' And Ops should then try and come up with a solution working with the ATCOs. Rather, the answer is now so often: 'impossible, sorry.' Or:
'Here's a new peice of kit, the engineers and designers think it's great, you can do anything you want with it, there are fifteen different ways of carrying out this function!'
'Cool, can it do such and such?'
'No.'
'So can it still do this?'
'Yes but you need to open that menu, and then press that button, and then thids button three times.'
'But it would be really helpful if we could do this with it...'
'No, it can't do that....'
The number of things that have been introduced recently as a 'fait accompli' is ridiculous.
I couldn't agree with you more, but without the ATCOs on side, it will be a whole lot more difficult. That process should be starting now.
You in on Saturday?
Absolute rubbish, it's all built to the same spec. The SS KK and LL systems will be identical in the above respect
So when EFPS gets installed into the new tower, it'll be on exactly the same brand/type computers with exactly the same hardware setup as at SS? If that's the case then I will gladly concede the point.
What about the BAA stand information? Is that all sorted?
Each unit will have this contingency as it is part of the spec and safety case.
And it is a fact that no more blank paper strips have been ordered...'because you won't need them in the new tower'. Maybe someone should tell the person responsible!
the odds on the these both simultaneously failing are as low as everyone giving birth to a ginger baby.
but I'm bored of hearing people on the unit moan moan and not do anything about it.
Jeeez, it's like a whole big secret!!!!!The onus is put on the operational ATCOs to go to SS on our days off, go down and talk to Ops during our breaks, when I have 101 other things to do, as well as have a break, and if we don't we're told we should stop complaining.
It is symptomatic of the whole relationship between Ops and the coal face over the past few years. In my mind, ATCOS should be able to go to Ops, either in the Tech Com or not, and say 'we need this/this piece of kit needs this function/how can we achieve this?' And Ops should then try and come up with a solution working with the ATCOs. Rather, the answer is now so often: 'impossible, sorry.' Or:
'Here's a new peice of kit, the engineers and designers think it's great, you can do anything you want with it, there are fifteen different ways of carrying out this function!'
'Cool, can it do such and such?'
'No.'
'So can it still do this?'
'Yes but you need to open that menu, and then press that button, and then thids button three times.'
'But it would be really helpful if we could do this with it...'
'No, it can't do that....'
The number of things that have been introduced recently as a 'fait accompli' is ridiculous.
Make no mistake EFPS introduction at EGLL is going to be a difficult process
You in on Saturday?
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A few facts about EFPS
a) To date, EFPS at SS has proven to be more reliable than the previous paper system that suffered from occasional NAS aborts and workstation lock ups.
b) The hardware and software for LL will be the same as used at SS and KK.
c) All main servers have a secondary back up should the primary fail.
d) Mains power to the EFPS system will be backed up by an UPS should the mains supply to the TWR fail.
e) A laptop and strip printer will be provided for SS, KK & LL for use in the event of a total EFPS failure. I suggest FM have stopped ordering the existing paper strips because the new printers required different paper!
Unlike your colleagues at SS and KK you have the advantage of having the project team in the same building, speak to them, you might even find out more facts
a) To date, EFPS at SS has proven to be more reliable than the previous paper system that suffered from occasional NAS aborts and workstation lock ups.
b) The hardware and software for LL will be the same as used at SS and KK.
c) All main servers have a secondary back up should the primary fail.
d) Mains power to the EFPS system will be backed up by an UPS should the mains supply to the TWR fail.
e) A laptop and strip printer will be provided for SS, KK & LL for use in the event of a total EFPS failure. I suggest FM have stopped ordering the existing paper strips because the new printers required different paper!
Unlike your colleagues at SS and KK you have the advantage of having the project team in the same building, speak to them, you might even find out more facts
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PPM9,
I try to, but the 'project team' works office hours, I work shifts. And the number of times I've gone down to speak with him when I've really had more important things to do on my break is great, and I've rarely managed to track him down, at least not recently.
This is exactly the problem I was trying to highlight. Personally, I think that more information should be flowing to the ATCOs from the 'project team'. We shouldn't have to go and try and find somone involved to ask for information/have our concerns addressed.
I try to, but the 'project team' works office hours, I work shifts. And the number of times I've gone down to speak with him when I've really had more important things to do on my break is great, and I've rarely managed to track him down, at least not recently.
This is exactly the problem I was trying to highlight. Personally, I think that more information should be flowing to the ATCOs from the 'project team'. We shouldn't have to go and try and find somone involved to ask for information/have our concerns addressed.
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White Hart,
no mate because no such published plans exist.
If you were to ask for a copy of the SS safety case put to SRG via internal e-mail I'm confident LL will be similar.
EGLL will have a laptop and printer, What follows isn't confirmed.
I'm told the old tower (current) will be retrofited at some point in late 06 early 07 with EFPS, so if we have power problems or whatever with the new tower away we go. Before that retro fit the old tower will still be a paper strip contingency.
As I say unconfirmed.
Gonzo a fair and measured reply sir, bar the ginger kids
If you do have time speak to Paul Johnson, he the man as they say. Also there is a big LL EFPS meeting in the middle of FEB you might want to get some details of.
If I don't see you in the next couple of days, give us a ring.
no mate because no such published plans exist.
If you were to ask for a copy of the SS safety case put to SRG via internal e-mail I'm confident LL will be similar.
EGLL will have a laptop and printer, What follows isn't confirmed.
I'm told the old tower (current) will be retrofited at some point in late 06 early 07 with EFPS, so if we have power problems or whatever with the new tower away we go. Before that retro fit the old tower will still be a paper strip contingency.
As I say unconfirmed.
Gonzo a fair and measured reply sir, bar the ginger kids
If you do have time speak to Paul Johnson, he the man as they say. Also there is a big LL EFPS meeting in the middle of FEB you might want to get some details of.
If I don't see you in the next couple of days, give us a ring.
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Yellow Snow
thanks for the info - I shall ask for a copy of the SS safety case info via my PCS rep next week. FYI, your reference to the laptop and printer at LL is the first time, either officially or unofficially, that this has been mentioned, to me at least. When I have asked previously, this info has never been divulged to me.
Whilst I welcome the "Gang of 3's" sensible provision of a paper backup (even if they have kept it a secret!), I shall be interested to see their explanation and solution as to exactly WHO will be responsible for the provision and dissemination of such info to the working ATCOs if/when EFPS fails. Also, a look at how this info is going to be presented to the ATCOs will also be worthwhile. (No strip bays in the new VCR - so post-it notes on the defunct screens, perhaps?
)
Any ideas/info on this part of the master plan?
thanks for the info - I shall ask for a copy of the SS safety case info via my PCS rep next week. FYI, your reference to the laptop and printer at LL is the first time, either officially or unofficially, that this has been mentioned, to me at least. When I have asked previously, this info has never been divulged to me.
Whilst I welcome the "Gang of 3's" sensible provision of a paper backup (even if they have kept it a secret!), I shall be interested to see their explanation and solution as to exactly WHO will be responsible for the provision and dissemination of such info to the working ATCOs if/when EFPS fails. Also, a look at how this info is going to be presented to the ATCOs will also be worthwhile. (No strip bays in the new VCR - so post-it notes on the defunct screens, perhaps?
)Any ideas/info on this part of the master plan?
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A proposal!
When the system was being developed/tested/taught/broken and fixed - not necessarily in any particular order - EGSS ran a series of FAQs (frequently asked questions), and gave answers in response. The majority of questions posed on this and similar threads on the NATS forum could be answered by getting hold of these nuggets of information. Ask your Ops department for a copy - they are only an email attachment away.
ps - to the moderator. Why do the threads on EFPS within the NATS forum keep disappearing within a day or two of responses being written?
When the system was being developed/tested/taught/broken and fixed - not necessarily in any particular order - EGSS ran a series of FAQs (frequently asked questions), and gave answers in response. The majority of questions posed on this and similar threads on the NATS forum could be answered by getting hold of these nuggets of information. Ask your Ops department for a copy - they are only an email attachment away.
ps - to the moderator. Why do the threads on EFPS within the NATS forum keep disappearing within a day or two of responses being written?
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exactly WHO will be responsible for the provision and dissemination of such info to the working ATCOs if/when EFPS fails
It saddens me to hear this sort of comment from, I guess, an operational ATSA. Have you heard of the principles of TRM?
In the, apparently vastly unlikely, event that EFPS should suffer a catastrophic failure, I'd like to think the last thing people in the VCR are doing is having a hastily arranged union meeting to decide who presses the "print strips" (or whatever) button on the laptop, then who passes those strips to whom.
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LLC,
Not wanting to hijack what he's said, I think the point that White Hart was making was that at the moment there are two ATSAs in the tower. In the new tower there is only provision for one. I think that getting strips out to five or maybe six ATCO positions in the event of a failure would be a challenge in that case.
Not wanting to hijack what he's said, I think the point that White Hart was making was that at the moment there are two ATSAs in the tower. In the new tower there is only provision for one. I think that getting strips out to five or maybe six ATCO positions in the event of a failure would be a challenge in that case.
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ps - to the moderator. Why do the threads on EFPS within the NATS forum keep disappearing within a day or two of responses being written?
There is probably a clue in the options you have set for PPRuNe. The bit about the number of days worth of postings you want displayed.
If you have set this at 2 days (or less), then funnily enough they WILL disappear from your browser after a couple of days. They are still there, just your preference setting is telling PPRuNe you don't want to view them
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The One and Only!
Gonzo...
Seriously? Only one ATSA?
Having thought about it, though, I guess that's just the lighting op as you aren't doing met obs yourselves are you, unlike the rest of us. Is that how it plans to stay, still paying out for the met office chap(ess) to do them?
Even so, there's still going to be another downstairs who would be only a minute or two from being in the VCR, along with a small clutch of ATCOs on breaks. All hands to the pumps...
Seriously? Only one ATSA?
Having thought about it, though, I guess that's just the lighting op as you aren't doing met obs yourselves are you, unlike the rest of us. Is that how it plans to stay, still paying out for the met office chap(ess) to do them?
Even so, there's still going to be another downstairs who would be only a minute or two from being in the VCR, along with a small clutch of ATCOs on breaks. All hands to the pumps...