How stable is EFPS?
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LLC
The concept of TRM is familiar to me - problem is, when it comes to LL ATSAs, it is completely irrelevant - we're not included, and never have been.
Also, current ATSA 2s in the VCR - 2; in the new VCR - 1 responsible for SAMOS. Current ATSA 4s (L/Ops) in the VCR - 2; new VCR - 3, none of which will be doing SAMOS, nor paper strip support for the ATCOs in the event of EFPS failure.
My point was, as Gonzo has highlighted, was the fact that there will be no ATSA 2s in the new VCR to provide paper strip support. We will be doing SAMOS - we have not been included in any plans for the new VCR/EFPS in any other way. This is the current plan for ATSA reductions at LL - a reduction from 30 to a possible maximum of 15 on the Unit. What is going to happen to the other 15, God knows. There is no provision at present for office space below the new VCR, and the Flight Briefing Unit may no longer exist at LL after this date anyway.
Therefore, my observation remains - in the absence of ATSA 2 support, who will provide the manpower for paper strip contingency in the event of EFPS failure? And how is it going to be presented to the working ATCOs at their non-strip based workstations?
The concept of TRM is familiar to me - problem is, when it comes to LL ATSAs, it is completely irrelevant - we're not included, and never have been.
Also, current ATSA 2s in the VCR - 2; in the new VCR - 1 responsible for SAMOS. Current ATSA 4s (L/Ops) in the VCR - 2; new VCR - 3, none of which will be doing SAMOS, nor paper strip support for the ATCOs in the event of EFPS failure.
My point was, as Gonzo has highlighted, was the fact that there will be no ATSA 2s in the new VCR to provide paper strip support. We will be doing SAMOS - we have not been included in any plans for the new VCR/EFPS in any other way. This is the current plan for ATSA reductions at LL - a reduction from 30 to a possible maximum of 15 on the Unit. What is going to happen to the other 15, God knows. There is no provision at present for office space below the new VCR, and the Flight Briefing Unit may no longer exist at LL after this date anyway.
Therefore, my observation remains - in the absence of ATSA 2 support, who will provide the manpower for paper strip contingency in the event of EFPS failure? And how is it going to be presented to the working ATCOs at their non-strip based workstations?
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Gatwick will become an ATSA 4 unit, with the LPO's doing met. But from what I've heard, Heathrow will have ATSA 4 LPO's and one ATSA 2.
What their job is going to be I'm not quite sure......?
What their job is going to be I'm not quite sure......?
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White Hart, I'll use the phrase again - all hands to the pumps in an extreme situation.
Are you suggesting that the SAMOS ATSA2 will sit on their ar$e waiting for the next report to be due. While the operational situation is going through a major crisis, they will sit there and run the "not my job pal, I'm here for met obs" line. Meanwhile the guys on breaks will also stick their heads in the sand?
As Muppit says above, KK will be a unit without ATSA2s. Don't go crying on about how hard done by you are at LL. Those ATSA4s who at the time are observing the met, I have every confidence will step up if the need arises.
Makes me all the more glad to be working in a unit where the staff (ATCO & ATSA alike) are working as a team to provide our customers with the best possible service, even in the most difficult and unforseen circumstances.
(edit - anyway...we're getting well off the topic title now folks
)
Are you suggesting that the SAMOS ATSA2 will sit on their ar$e waiting for the next report to be due. While the operational situation is going through a major crisis, they will sit there and run the "not my job pal, I'm here for met obs" line. Meanwhile the guys on breaks will also stick their heads in the sand?
As Muppit says above, KK will be a unit without ATSA2s. Don't go crying on about how hard done by you are at LL. Those ATSA4s who at the time are observing the met, I have every confidence will step up if the need arises.
Makes me all the more glad to be working in a unit where the staff (ATCO & ATSA alike) are working as a team to provide our customers with the best possible service, even in the most difficult and unforseen circumstances.
(edit - anyway...we're getting well off the topic title now folks
)
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LLC
White Hart is quite right to ask who will be RESPONSIBLE for disseminating the information in the event of a failure. It may not be the person actually performing the task - that's where the TRM comes in.
That each task is the responsibility of a defined person or persons is a fundamental part of Air Traffic. To use your own metaphor if "All hands are on the pumps" who's on the helm, keeping a lookout or fixing the leak?
White Hart is quite right to ask who will be RESPONSIBLE for disseminating the information in the event of a failure. It may not be the person actually performing the task - that's where the TRM comes in.
That each task is the responsibility of a defined person or persons is a fundamental part of Air Traffic. To use your own metaphor if "All hands are on the pumps" who's on the helm, keeping a lookout or fixing the leak?
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As per normal in these type of situations, the person with the "responsibility" will be the Watch Manager/Supervisor. To whom they actually delegate the task to in the event will have to be entrusted to them on their judgement as to what carries importance. I suspect any WM worth their pay packet would jump up, grab the met ATSA and inform them of their priority task to get distributing 
. Followed rapidly by a phone call to the rest-room to get any help they can.
Without meaning to get any LL people's back's up, I can't help but think that you're getting a bit bogged down in the nitty gritty of how specific unit instructions will be written for a piece of kit that is going to be installed in a VCR that is still in the process of being built. Remember that by the time you come anywhere near seeing the stuff, between SS & KK there will be something like 2-2 1/2 years of NATS operational experience behind the project. That's not including experience gained from NavCanada. Now, to my view, that's a pretty good soak test for any system to find how the semantics of instruction writing should be handled - don't you think? I'm sure lessons will be learnt by SS which will be acted on by KK, then both KK & SS will learn things that LL will take on board for their implementation. The main thing is that information will be shared - even if it's via this board (although my personal opinion is that technical issues raised about a piece of NATS equipment should be held in the private NATS forum). If information is shared through this board, then it's up to you LL guys present here to go and raise the point to the implemetation team at LL.
. Followed rapidly by a phone call to the rest-room to get any help they can.Without meaning to get any LL people's back's up, I can't help but think that you're getting a bit bogged down in the nitty gritty of how specific unit instructions will be written for a piece of kit that is going to be installed in a VCR that is still in the process of being built. Remember that by the time you come anywhere near seeing the stuff, between SS & KK there will be something like 2-2 1/2 years of NATS operational experience behind the project. That's not including experience gained from NavCanada. Now, to my view, that's a pretty good soak test for any system to find how the semantics of instruction writing should be handled - don't you think? I'm sure lessons will be learnt by SS which will be acted on by KK, then both KK & SS will learn things that LL will take on board for their implementation. The main thing is that information will be shared - even if it's via this board (although my personal opinion is that technical issues raised about a piece of NATS equipment should be held in the private NATS forum). If information is shared through this board, then it's up to you LL guys present here to go and raise the point to the implemetation team at LL.
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LLC
Your point about sharing information is what is at the crux of the problem here - we (the EGLL ATCOs and ATSAs alike) are not party to all the information that is available about EFPS at this time (the laptop/printer for instance?). And yes, the idea of us acting on shared info received here on pprune is also reasonable - it's actually already happening at LL with regards to EFPS issues.
The problem we have locally is that we are not getting any answers back from our Project Team. That's why some of us are on here asking questions now, including myself - an ATSA 2. In any contingency plan, everybody needs to know exactly what they are responsible for, and what they should be doing - and that would include the ATSA 2s.
I shall treat your derogatory remarks about the LL ATSA 2s and our own issues with the contempt they deserve. So much for TRM .
Your point about sharing information is what is at the crux of the problem here - we (the EGLL ATCOs and ATSAs alike) are not party to all the information that is available about EFPS at this time (the laptop/printer for instance?). And yes, the idea of us acting on shared info received here on pprune is also reasonable - it's actually already happening at LL with regards to EFPS issues.
The problem we have locally is that we are not getting any answers back from our Project Team. That's why some of us are on here asking questions now, including myself - an ATSA 2. In any contingency plan, everybody needs to know exactly what they are responsible for, and what they should be doing - and that would include the ATSA 2s.
I shall treat your derogatory remarks about the LL ATSA 2s and our own issues with the contempt they deserve. So much for TRM .
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Gonzo
It's about time I returned to the fray (Hello Jer).
1/. Ops do NOT presenrt things to you fait accompli. We can only do the best with what is given to us. WE DON'T get involved in porjects at their inception and the company has a method of buying off the shelf products BECAUSE THEY ARE CHEAPER rather that designing them. If we given rubbish we can't work the miracles that some operational staff seem to think that we can. I've changed my opininon of you and I think you're a good guy but sometimes my hands are just as tied as yours.
GT3
C' mon mate, give us a break. If we're getting on to the subject of work done then I do 20 days dper month....
Good to be back (missin ya Chris)
The mighty P7
It's about time I returned to the fray (Hello Jer).
1/. Ops do NOT presenrt things to you fait accompli. We can only do the best with what is given to us. WE DON'T get involved in porjects at their inception and the company has a method of buying off the shelf products BECAUSE THEY ARE CHEAPER rather that designing them. If we given rubbish we can't work the miracles that some operational staff seem to think that we can. I've changed my opininon of you and I think you're a good guy but sometimes my hands are just as tied as yours.
GT3
C' mon mate, give us a break. If we're getting on to the subject of work done then I do 20 days dper month....
Good to be back (missin ya Chris)
The mighty P7
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C' mon mate, give us a break. If we're getting on to the subject of work done then I do 20 days dper month....
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Agree with GT3, I think we'd all concede (perhaps reluctantly
) that things have improved since you've gone down there.
If your hands are tied why not tell us all first, rather than waiting for a load of complaints and/or suggestions until saying nothing can be done? Sometimes it's more a factor of what's seen to be done rather than what is actually the case. If Ops are seen to be more 'open' then less criticism will come their way.
And a compliment too? Gosh
20 days a month? Does that include this past Sunday???
) that things have improved since you've gone down there. If your hands are tied why not tell us all first, rather than waiting for a load of complaints and/or suggestions until saying nothing can be done? Sometimes it's more a factor of what's seen to be done rather than what is actually the case. If Ops are seen to be more 'open' then less criticism will come their way.
And a compliment too? Gosh
20 days a month? Does that include this past Sunday???
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Hart,
I've read back through all my posts and still can't see a put down of LL 2's or their issues - excuse me if you've misread something that wasn't written well, but that's often the way with written forums.
I've read back through all my posts and still can't see a put down of LL 2's or their issues - excuse me if you've misread something that wasn't written well, but that's often the way with written forums.
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I understand that there is an EFPS meeting at LL on 14Feb. The LL ATSAs (4s & 2s) as yet do not appear to be invited to send any representatives, either from the Watches, Tech Comm, nor from PCS.
Is this the same arrangement at SS and KK at their EFPS meetings, or have ATSAs been invited to attend EFPS discussions?
Is this the same arrangement at SS and KK at their EFPS meetings, or have ATSAs been invited to attend EFPS discussions?
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As an ATSA at KK we have been as involved in the implementation of EFPS as much as the ATCO's, if we've wanted to be.
Ops and training have given us all the time we want to look over the system and 'play' with it, have encouraged us to get involved and see how the system works, our opinions and ideas have been sought. Any questions we have had have been answered or taken on board and passed on.
The whole watch ATCO's and ATSA's were encouraged to visit SS to see the system in development before it went 'live' and are being encouraged to go back again now it is operational.
Now that operational training is beginning we are slightly less involved at this stage but we are to be involved more so again once our role in operating the system has been decided upon (creating runway crossing strips/ tug movements / overflights etc.)
If you feel you are being left out of the loop at LL I can only suggest you shout louder about wanting to be involved and stop whinging about lack of involvement on this board. As I suggested before spend your early go's with Ops and find out what is going on.
TTFN
Ops and training have given us all the time we want to look over the system and 'play' with it, have encouraged us to get involved and see how the system works, our opinions and ideas have been sought. Any questions we have had have been answered or taken on board and passed on.
The whole watch ATCO's and ATSA's were encouraged to visit SS to see the system in development before it went 'live' and are being encouraged to go back again now it is operational.
Now that operational training is beginning we are slightly less involved at this stage but we are to be involved more so again once our role in operating the system has been decided upon (creating runway crossing strips/ tug movements / overflights etc.)
If you feel you are being left out of the loop at LL I can only suggest you shout louder about wanting to be involved and stop whinging about lack of involvement on this board. As I suggested before spend your early go's with Ops and find out what is going on.
TTFN
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Is this the same arrangement at SS and KK at their EFPS meetings
