Why Oh WhyOh Why do you guys do this....
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Why Oh WhyOh Why do you guys do this....
On the G/S and LOC at the same time.... this may seem smart and clever to all you atc folks, and me as a previous blip driver, But all we need is 1/2 mile to fly level !!!
Do you get bonus points for this trick ??
Cheers
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: FL245 ]
Do you get bonus points for this trick ??
Cheers
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: FL245 ]
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Could you explain further please as I'm not too sure what you mean. I've been sticking aluminium junk down the ILS's at Heathrow for thirty years so I'd be interested to know what I've been doing wrong....
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From my point of view, the problem is that UK rules do not ?encourage/allow? clearance for 'the ILS' as with other countries.
Thus, when we are LOC established, we have to tell you, then you clear us for the GP, and if someone else is on the freq we can find ourselves above the GP at the last cleared altitude, unable to descend - not a major problem in 'real life', but with company SOPs and their preference for the use of the 'automatics' the re-programming of the machine to recapture the GP is a significant distraction.
What would be nice would be clearance for the ILS when on intercept heading, e.g. 'when established, clear to descend with the ILS' or similar.
Thus, when we are LOC established, we have to tell you, then you clear us for the GP, and if someone else is on the freq we can find ourselves above the GP at the last cleared altitude, unable to descend - not a major problem in 'real life', but with company SOPs and their preference for the use of the 'automatics' the re-programming of the machine to recapture the GP is a significant distraction.
What would be nice would be clearance for the ILS when on intercept heading, e.g. 'when established, clear to descend with the ILS' or similar.
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This was thrashed out a few months ago.
UK phraseology doesn't permit you to be "cleared for ILS approach" because it is believed that you may descend below your cleared level if it is above the ILS approach commencement altitude.
What we are allowed to say is "...establish on the localiser then descend with the ILS" or something similar. Why use 4 words when the job can be done just as well with 9!
The number of times I have said this, still to be confronted with traffic maintaining 3000 feet above the glide trying to get in on frequency to say "confirm cleared to descend?"
I thought standard phraseology was supposed to do away with confusion, not promote it.
If you're at an altitude from which ATC have no reason to stop your descent, then why can't we say "cleared for ILS approach...?"
UK phraseology doesn't permit you to be "cleared for ILS approach" because it is believed that you may descend below your cleared level if it is above the ILS approach commencement altitude.
What we are allowed to say is "...establish on the localiser then descend with the ILS" or something similar. Why use 4 words when the job can be done just as well with 9!
The number of times I have said this, still to be confronted with traffic maintaining 3000 feet above the glide trying to get in on frequency to say "confirm cleared to descend?"
I thought standard phraseology was supposed to do away with confusion, not promote it.
If you're at an altitude from which ATC have no reason to stop your descent, then why can't we say "cleared for ILS approach...?"
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I agree that UK phraseology seems a bit potty and many foreign crews still ask "confirm cleared for the ILS?" to which I reply "affirm, cleared for the ILS" - then watch them closely! In the case of Heathrow a problem arose many years ago when somebody who had been "cleared for the ILS" went down to 1200 feet at 10 miles - God alone knows why. There's a lot going on under our final approaches so our procedures have to be fail-safe to prevent conflict with helicopters, clockwork-mice, etc. Maybe we're lucky in having a dedicated final director frequency which rarely goes bananas so there's plenty of R/T time whereas an approach unit trying to pop traffic onto the ILS and dealing with other traffic might well have problems.
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If I remember correctly, the new approved phraseology is along the lines of.....
"c/s, when established on the localiser, descend with the glideslope".
Rolls off the tongue nicely, eh
One thing to remember at EGLL and EGKK is the requirement for continuous descent approaches. Whilst perhaps not quite so important to achieve them during the day, we get hit over the head with lots of statistics if we fail to apply them rigidly during the night period.
B.
"c/s, when established on the localiser, descend with the glideslope".
Rolls off the tongue nicely, eh
One thing to remember at EGLL and EGKK is the requirement for continuous descent approaches. Whilst perhaps not quite so important to achieve them during the day, we get hit over the head with lots of statistics if we fail to apply them rigidly during the night period.
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HEATHROW DIRECTOR - you guys don't do it at LL, everything is established well before the glide (normally!) but there are a couple of units that almost always establish us just as the glide is getting centred - causing much fun all round.. 
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I had forgotten about that form of phraseology that you use... I like ours <shrug> but it is what I am use to. AAL50, four miles north of lima, turn left heading 290, intercept the loc at or above 2100, cleared ILS 26 left.
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We dont't have all that extra RT "jargon" that our colleages in the UK have ...but hey ...Scott the one you've just used is good ....should be something that could prove usefull to the lads in the UK ....
In regard to the person that orignally posted this thread ...I think, I know what I know what his gripe is ....the fact is simply a lot of times the old school philosophy of vectoring an A/C to capture LOC first and then GS has been forgotten, not appreciated or simply not appreciated, it's all good and well if the machine is doing it all automatically ....but on the odd occasion that the Approach is flown manually it's a nightmare ...try starting up FS 98/2000 and capturing LOC and GS at the same time ....besides that even in auto app ....even the auto pilot have it's work cut out fot it trying to acheve something that is humanly very difficult ...most companies have strict SOPS about chasing a GS from above ...besides that it is, if anything a dangerous practice ...
Heathrow Dir .....surely with a dedicated final director now in place ...a person that monitors specifically A/C wondering oof the approach , be it laterally or vertically your "long winded" RT could be revised back to the original "cleared for ILS App Rwy xx" ???
In regard to the person that orignally posted this thread ...I think, I know what I know what his gripe is ....the fact is simply a lot of times the old school philosophy of vectoring an A/C to capture LOC first and then GS has been forgotten, not appreciated or simply not appreciated, it's all good and well if the machine is doing it all automatically ....but on the odd occasion that the Approach is flown manually it's a nightmare ...try starting up FS 98/2000 and capturing LOC and GS at the same time ....besides that even in auto app ....even the auto pilot have it's work cut out fot it trying to acheve something that is humanly very difficult ...most companies have strict SOPS about chasing a GS from above ...besides that it is, if anything a dangerous practice ...
Heathrow Dir .....surely with a dedicated final director now in place ...a person that monitors specifically A/C wondering oof the approach , be it laterally or vertically your "long winded" RT could be revised back to the original "cleared for ILS App Rwy xx" ???
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Strength-5. There's been a final director at Heathrow for 40+ years but his task is primarily to achieve extremely accurate spacing and not to monitor the activities of traffic on the ILS, which he must assume will do the right thing. Quite obviously if someone wanders left/right or up/down then action will be taken but I don't think our "trappers" would approve the easier phraseology by putting the onus for maintaining the approach profile on the final director. Thankfully I can't remember the last time anyone did descend too low so may be our weird system works!
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The occasion that HD refers to was a TWA 707 that descended to 2500 about 25 miles out and then came down to 1200 over the city. Reason given for the initial descent was that 2500 was the listed min.sector altitude, no logical reason even found (sightseeeing excepted) for the 1200 feet.
Oh! happy days when you could say to the early morning TWA and PanAm flights as they approached Woodley "do you want to go visual for 28L" and then watch from the windows.
Oh! happy days when you could say to the early morning TWA and PanAm flights as they approached Woodley "do you want to go visual for 28L" and then watch from the windows.
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FL245, Yes it is ICAO recommendation that the ATC puts the aircraft in level flight onto the LOC about half-a-mile or so before the GP. That is certainly how I was trained and that is what I teach when I do.
Only real reason that I sometimes find to cut it short is to put you onto the ILS into the shrinking hole ahead of the guy that is at 15 miles already on the LOC. In that case I will at least attempt to get you down a bit lower.
Skytalkert
Only real reason that I sometimes find to cut it short is to put you onto the ILS into the shrinking hole ahead of the guy that is at 15 miles already on the LOC. In that case I will at least attempt to get you down a bit lower.
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Too right Jack... sorry, Shack! Even a young boy like me can remember a PAA 747 doing a visual off WOD one morning. He turned on about 2 miles out for 28L and when I commented on his fighter approach that we'd all appreciated he said "You got a couple of Nam Vets up here boy!"
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cossack, its nothing to do with the phraseology used, althought I have been 'cleared for the ILS' in one UK airport recently.
The problem lies more in the r/v to the loc. In the flightdeck you can see it happening, G/S coming in and you are on a closing heading, still to establish on the loc. You call established and then it is immediate desent to xxxft to ensure you are now well below the G/S.
JuicyLucy, you are right, it never happens at LL. There as HEATHROW DIRECTOR says you are loc established, and awaiting the appearance of the G/S, which is the way it should be.
But many regional airports do have this thing about G/S and Loc established at same time. Its a real pain, and there is no need for it.
The problem lies more in the r/v to the loc. In the flightdeck you can see it happening, G/S coming in and you are on a closing heading, still to establish on the loc. You call established and then it is immediate desent to xxxft to ensure you are now well below the G/S.
JuicyLucy, you are right, it never happens at LL. There as HEATHROW DIRECTOR says you are loc established, and awaiting the appearance of the G/S, which is the way it should be.
But many regional airports do have this thing about G/S and Loc established at same time. Its a real pain, and there is no need for it.
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OK, I'm with you now!
Ideally you would always be level on the Loc before GP but not everything is ideal. You say that LHR never do that. That is probably because everything is structured to put you on final outside 10nm.
At the less busy airports, you may get a 6 - 8 mile final at sometimes of the day, which requires a descent below 3000 feet to permit a period of level flight prior to GP intercept. Unfortunately there is high ground around may of our airports and so this descent below 3000 cannot be given until in the final approach funnel on a closing heading.
So, you either accept it as a funtion of a shorter final or you request a 10nm final when you're number one. The choice is yours!
Oh and while we're on the subject, why when you're number one do some of you end up at 10nm at 3500 feet at 230kts having been given range to touchdown info and plenty of room to get the height off?
Just an observation...
Ideally you would always be level on the Loc before GP but not everything is ideal. You say that LHR never do that. That is probably because everything is structured to put you on final outside 10nm.
At the less busy airports, you may get a 6 - 8 mile final at sometimes of the day, which requires a descent below 3000 feet to permit a period of level flight prior to GP intercept. Unfortunately there is high ground around may of our airports and so this descent below 3000 cannot be given until in the final approach funnel on a closing heading.
So, you either accept it as a funtion of a shorter final or you request a 10nm final when you're number one. The choice is yours!
Oh and while we're on the subject, why when you're number one do some of you end up at 10nm at 3500 feet at 230kts having been given range to touchdown info and plenty of room to get the height off?
Just an observation...
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So we all in agreement then ...
Vector for LOC lock on first , then GS, is the way it should be ....and the way it was always taught ....if you need to bang a guy on shorter to inevitably help them, ask "can you accept a 6/7/8 mile intercept ..at least they will be prepared for the "ride" ....and if the "wheels come off and the app is "un-stable" and results in a go-around then at least you could say the crew accepted the offer ...
Thumbs down to all those that merely vector A/C on at any old distance and could'nt care less ..
Incidentally 10 nm / 230 kts / 3500 ft (I presume with an airfield at sea level) is not that far off the "slot" ...if the airfield has got an elevation of 500 ft or more it's bang in the slot ....I would say it's then not a badly flown profile from 30 odd thousand feet
Vector for LOC lock on first , then GS, is the way it should be ....and the way it was always taught ....if you need to bang a guy on shorter to inevitably help them, ask "can you accept a 6/7/8 mile intercept ..at least they will be prepared for the "ride" ....and if the "wheels come off and the app is "un-stable" and results in a go-around then at least you could say the crew accepted the offer ...
Thumbs down to all those that merely vector A/C on at any old distance and could'nt care less ..
Incidentally 10 nm / 230 kts / 3500 ft (I presume with an airfield at sea level) is not that far off the "slot" ...if the airfield has got an elevation of 500 ft or more it's bang in the slot ....I would say it's then not a badly flown profile from 30 odd thousand feet
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10nm @ 3500 feet and 230kts wouldn't usually allow any level flight before GP interception would it?.
Most of the slippery aircraft then end up reducing descent rate to get the speed off and end up above the GP. This at an airfield with elevation of 256 feet which equates to 3000 feet = 8.4 DME.
I do agree with the LOC first then GP principle. In practice, as with many things in ATC, it won't always work, but we try! There are going to be times when you are a bit high and fast, but most controllers will recognise this and not point you at a 6 mile final in this instance...I hope!
Most of the slippery aircraft then end up reducing descent rate to get the speed off and end up above the GP. This at an airfield with elevation of 256 feet which equates to 3000 feet = 8.4 DME.
I do agree with the LOC first then GP principle. In practice, as with many things in ATC, it won't always work, but we try! There are going to be times when you are a bit high and fast, but most controllers will recognise this and not point you at a 6 mile final in this instance...I hope!
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No Cossack you right with that elevation it would'nt ..pbut my point is simply the guy that ends up 250ft too high and possibly 10-20kts too fast has'nt done bad iro. a near perfect descent profile ....if anything they have done a damn good job ...if you can afford to run that chap a mile or two further on downwind or take them slightly through the LOC they would be smack bang in the slot ...but hey, I know I am nit picking on your figures qouted ....I also fully grasp your real gripe ....far too many guys end up way too high ...or the reverse, are level for many miles before the GS intercept after they have been given track miles and their speed has'nt been touched ...that can turn out a real bugger ....
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Very interesting guys, did any of you know that my (world's favourite) airline has airfields which are known as "restricted"?
This basically means that the drivers have to watch an audiovisual briefing, usually a detailed one, before their 1st visit to any of these places. Brussels is one of these. And the reason? ATC, who without fail do exactly what you're talking about and almost cause rushed approaches nearly every time!
So this airline considers this subject very important. (BRU also ask for 180kt to 3d sometimes which is another reason for the briefing)
Don't get me wrong give me a UK based ATCO every time, just thought this might be interesting while we're on the subject.
And to name the well known UK culprits as nobody else has:
EGPD,EGCC06L,EGPF23. You know who you are! And yes I know I can refuse a vector if I consider it unsuitable, but with 5 acft behind me?
Mind you you're doing better than Oslo Gardemoen who last week when asked for 3 or 4 extra miles downwind, replied "negative, I repeat left HDG 260" !!!
This basically means that the drivers have to watch an audiovisual briefing, usually a detailed one, before their 1st visit to any of these places. Brussels is one of these. And the reason? ATC, who without fail do exactly what you're talking about and almost cause rushed approaches nearly every time!
So this airline considers this subject very important. (BRU also ask for 180kt to 3d sometimes which is another reason for the briefing)
Don't get me wrong give me a UK based ATCO every time, just thought this might be interesting while we're on the subject.
And to name the well known UK culprits as nobody else has:
EGPD,EGCC06L,EGPF23. You know who you are! And yes I know I can refuse a vector if I consider it unsuitable, but with 5 acft behind me?
Mind you you're doing better than Oslo Gardemoen who last week when asked for 3 or 4 extra miles downwind, replied "negative, I repeat left HDG 260" !!!