Why Oh WhyOh Why do you guys do this....
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Since 06L at MAN has been highlighted let me give you the reasons why it might happen.
1 Late descent from the stacks due to outbound traffic requiring inbounds to be kept high til late.
2 Restricted amount of airspace to the west due to the proximity of Liverpool and its traffic.
3 Controller technique - Focussing on spacing and not slowing aircraft early enough to permit a more "controlled" quick descent rather than a rushed, high speed one in order to achieve the required spacing on final.
On 06R its probably slightly worse since you have 1 mile less to work with!
1 Late descent from the stacks due to outbound traffic requiring inbounds to be kept high til late.
2 Restricted amount of airspace to the west due to the proximity of Liverpool and its traffic.
3 Controller technique - Focussing on spacing and not slowing aircraft early enough to permit a more "controlled" quick descent rather than a rushed, high speed one in order to achieve the required spacing on final.
On 06R its probably slightly worse since you have 1 mile less to work with!
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Sitting comfortably...
I'm sorry to learn that you aren't doing just that when you visit us at PD! I think myself and most of my colleagues are well aware of the importance of giving you a decent ILS and not intercepting the GP from above and don't cut it tight for the hell of it. Next time I'm faced with the dilemma of squeezing the fixed-wing at 200kts+ in ahead of a helicopter at 120kts, I'll bear in mind this sort of thing is not always appreciated and take you for a 15 mile ILS at 160kts. That's always assuming we don't get the "you can turn us in when you like" call as the aircraft passes abeam a seven mile final of course...
Sorry to get on my high horse about this one, but most of us try hard to give you a good service in every respect and its disappointing to find its not always appreciated. I've spent a lot of time on jumpseats in an effort to learn what goes on up there, so it would be nice to see more aircrew visiting us and see things from our end of the RT.
I'm sorry to learn that you aren't doing just that when you visit us at PD! I think myself and most of my colleagues are well aware of the importance of giving you a decent ILS and not intercepting the GP from above and don't cut it tight for the hell of it. Next time I'm faced with the dilemma of squeezing the fixed-wing at 200kts+ in ahead of a helicopter at 120kts, I'll bear in mind this sort of thing is not always appreciated and take you for a 15 mile ILS at 160kts. That's always assuming we don't get the "you can turn us in when you like" call as the aircraft passes abeam a seven mile final of course...
Sorry to get on my high horse about this one, but most of us try hard to give you a good service in every respect and its disappointing to find its not always appreciated. I've spent a lot of time on jumpseats in an effort to learn what goes on up there, so it would be nice to see more aircrew visiting us and see things from our end of the RT.
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Having some familiiarity with the place, I'd suggest that EGPD is a bit different to the others mentioned. The controlled airspace available (lack of) can cause a few challenges during heavy sequencing, particularly for R34. Most of EGPD's fixed wing IFR traffic arrives from the south, split perhaps 60-40 between airway and FIR, so "bunching" in what is a confined space is common.
With R34 in use, this can lead to vectoring traffic out of the airway/CTR for positioning, adding to the EGPD guys' workload as they now have to watch your butt against unknowns by providing a RAS. With Lossiemouth to the NW and Leuchars to the S, Aberdeen is a bit of fast jet magnet, so taking traffic outside CAS can be asking for trouble.
The track miles from the airway to hit the R34 LLZ can be tight for the descent profile - overhead GLESK at F130 descending isn't going to work - if it's 34 in use, perhaps you might start your descent earlier with Scottish.
I am quite certain that most ATCOs at EGPD "play it tight" because it's needed to minimise the "side-effects" during heavy traffic. However, if there's only one or two on frequency, then sure, it's unnecessary.
Different companies play the game differently - the drivers of some airlines ask for a short ILS - "5 mile final will be fine" - which is actually very difficult to achieve at EGPD (for traffic from the SW) due to terrain restrictions - at best you'd hit 5 mile final just 1600 AAL (no level flight on the LLZ) , although it's more likely you'll be descending through 2300 AAL.
EGPD is one of the most "accommodating" units I've ever visited - when they can help you out with expeditious routing and approach (even to the "opposite" end runway), they do. But the airspace, traffic levels and complexity - especially in poor weather when the helicopters can't take (S)VFR - is rather more challenging than many pilots and ATCOs would expect. I'm not sure EGPD should be regarded in the same light as other UK airports with similar / higher traffic levels - EGPD is pretty unique.
Me? I wouldn't do it for a gold pig...
[Forgot to mention this]: has anyone at the world's favourite airline TOLD the EGPD management that the airport is classed as "restricted"? If not, why not? If there is a "problem", how can EGPD solve if if no-one tells them about it?
[Edited for typos!]
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: TheLizard ]
With R34 in use, this can lead to vectoring traffic out of the airway/CTR for positioning, adding to the EGPD guys' workload as they now have to watch your butt against unknowns by providing a RAS. With Lossiemouth to the NW and Leuchars to the S, Aberdeen is a bit of fast jet magnet, so taking traffic outside CAS can be asking for trouble.
The track miles from the airway to hit the R34 LLZ can be tight for the descent profile - overhead GLESK at F130 descending isn't going to work - if it's 34 in use, perhaps you might start your descent earlier with Scottish.
I am quite certain that most ATCOs at EGPD "play it tight" because it's needed to minimise the "side-effects" during heavy traffic. However, if there's only one or two on frequency, then sure, it's unnecessary.
Different companies play the game differently - the drivers of some airlines ask for a short ILS - "5 mile final will be fine" - which is actually very difficult to achieve at EGPD (for traffic from the SW) due to terrain restrictions - at best you'd hit 5 mile final just 1600 AAL (no level flight on the LLZ) , although it's more likely you'll be descending through 2300 AAL.
EGPD is one of the most "accommodating" units I've ever visited - when they can help you out with expeditious routing and approach (even to the "opposite" end runway), they do. But the airspace, traffic levels and complexity - especially in poor weather when the helicopters can't take (S)VFR - is rather more challenging than many pilots and ATCOs would expect. I'm not sure EGPD should be regarded in the same light as other UK airports with similar / higher traffic levels - EGPD is pretty unique.
Me? I wouldn't do it for a gold pig...
[Forgot to mention this]: has anyone at the world's favourite airline TOLD the EGPD management that the airport is classed as "restricted"? If not, why not? If there is a "problem", how can EGPD solve if if no-one tells them about it?
[Edited for typos!]
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: TheLizard ]
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I had a feeling that EGPF rwy 23 would come into this. I'd just like to point out that we don't do it for the hell of it. We have a line running through 9nm final oriented 100/280 magnetic. To go north of that line causes false GPWS warnings at 3000ft even though it is terrain safe. To avoid this we have to keep you at 3500 north of the line.
Therefore we aim for 7-8nm final, with descent to 2200 on the closing heading 10nm from touchdown. To get this descent you have to be BOTH on the closing heading AND within 10nm. As you can see it is always going to be close.
It only takes a late turn in, crap closing heading, or slightly late descent call to spoil the profile, and we are aware of that. It may be other aircraft calling, telephone co-ordination, or just the controller focusing on another "problem" on the screen.
The only alternative is to stay at 3500ft and join final at 12nm from touchdown. OK no great problem for us, but that's an extra 5 track miles for every aircraft. If that's really what you want then ask for it on first contact.
I think all UK airports are experiencing relentless traffic growth. R/T time, thinking time and airspace are finite resources. At some point changes need to be made, but until the need for change is identified it will not come. I would therefore urge you to raise any such issues which are becoming frequent occurrences on an official basis.
If you want to come & see it from the blunt end drop me a line, crews are always welcome to visit.
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know if enhanced GPWS eradicates false warnings in these circumstances. If so, maybe when it is in more widespread use it would be possible to amend the procedures.
Therefore we aim for 7-8nm final, with descent to 2200 on the closing heading 10nm from touchdown. To get this descent you have to be BOTH on the closing heading AND within 10nm. As you can see it is always going to be close.
It only takes a late turn in, crap closing heading, or slightly late descent call to spoil the profile, and we are aware of that. It may be other aircraft calling, telephone co-ordination, or just the controller focusing on another "problem" on the screen.
The only alternative is to stay at 3500ft and join final at 12nm from touchdown. OK no great problem for us, but that's an extra 5 track miles for every aircraft. If that's really what you want then ask for it on first contact.
I think all UK airports are experiencing relentless traffic growth. R/T time, thinking time and airspace are finite resources. At some point changes need to be made, but until the need for change is identified it will not come. I would therefore urge you to raise any such issues which are becoming frequent occurrences on an official basis.
If you want to come & see it from the blunt end drop me a line, crews are always welcome to visit.
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know if enhanced GPWS eradicates false warnings in these circumstances. If so, maybe when it is in more widespread use it would be possible to amend the procedures.
