160 until 4dme @ EGKK
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Any other drivers out there regualrly reduce speed at 4.5 or 5 miles?
I'm not interested in whether you should or shouldn't do it, but if everyone does it then maybe we ought to thin kabout changing our procedures...
As Dan Dare says, we always sweat when a 757 is followed by a Heavy, as we know it's going to be tight. I'm wondering if it's tight because you slow down at 4.5 or because you're slower, or a combination of the two?
G W-H, would you slow at 4.5 in the 767?
I'm not interested in whether you should or shouldn't do it, but if everyone does it then maybe we ought to thin kabout changing our procedures...
As Dan Dare says, we always sweat when a 757 is followed by a Heavy, as we know it's going to be tight. I'm wondering if it's tight because you slow down at 4.5 or because you're slower, or a combination of the two?
G W-H, would you slow at 4.5 in the 767?
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Thompsonfly,
I'm just guessing but I would say you flew a 757 the other day and that you were going for a flap30 landing.
You make it sound like the end of the world if the flap load relief system activates but it's there for that exact purpose.
I've always found it very useful to do flap25 landings in conditions such as the one you describe. The Vref is normally only about 2 knots higher but the limitspeed on flap25 is 190KIAS rather then 162KIAS for flap30. That way you could easily fly in landing configuration from way out if you find the workload too high to change the config at four miles. On top of that the 757 handles alot better in windy/gusty conditions in flap25 config.
Regs
I'm just guessing but I would say you flew a 757 the other day and that you were going for a flap30 landing.
Being an ex- controller HD, you of all people would know that aircraft are very hard to slow down, the pilots should stabilise the aircraft in the landing config by 1000' agl and that flaps have limit speeds which activate a flap load relief system if exceeded.
I've always found it very useful to do flap25 landings in conditions such as the one you describe. The Vref is normally only about 2 knots higher but the limitspeed on flap25 is 190KIAS rather then 162KIAS for flap30. That way you could easily fly in landing configuration from way out if you find the workload too high to change the config at four miles. On top of that the 757 handles alot better in windy/gusty conditions in flap25 config.
Regs
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How about F20 gear up and 160Kts dialled up. At 5nm drop the gear, wind the speed back and F30 at 4nm? The speed runs back and you're in the slot by 1000' - just.
F25 landing on a 757 - I'm interested to hear that it handles better in gusty conditions. F30 always seemed fine to me and is our SOP anyway. At typical landing weights and vref+20, the speed is comfortably below 162Kts. However there will be slightly less ground effect with F25 and less of a tendency to stay in the air after the flare. F25 is useful sometimes as an interim flap setting when the speed isn't coming off (flaps as brakes - surely not).
It's better to avoid having the flap load relief activate. In the 757 F30-F25 destabilises a little but in a 763 F30-F20 will greatly change pitch and thrust and this will all happen around 1000' and then the speed reduces and another destabilisation as landing flap comes out again - not good and particularly not in gusty conditions when the requirements of a stable approach are still there.
F25 landing on a 757 - I'm interested to hear that it handles better in gusty conditions. F30 always seemed fine to me and is our SOP anyway. At typical landing weights and vref+20, the speed is comfortably below 162Kts. However there will be slightly less ground effect with F25 and less of a tendency to stay in the air after the flare. F25 is useful sometimes as an interim flap setting when the speed isn't coming off (flaps as brakes - surely not).
It's better to avoid having the flap load relief activate. In the 757 F30-F25 destabilises a little but in a 763 F30-F20 will greatly change pitch and thrust and this will all happen around 1000' and then the speed reduces and another destabilisation as landing flap comes out again - not good and particularly not in gusty conditions when the requirements of a stable approach are still there.
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I dunno, but the 757s I work seem to have no problem at all going from 210 kts gs to 120 kts in about 3 miles on final. That's just going on the radar data. In fact, if I don't control the speeds, the Cessna Caravans hauling freight will outrun the 757 on final.
160 kts on 4 mile final seems pretty tame. Some of the 738s and 739s can't go that slow!
160 kts on 4 mile final seems pretty tame. Some of the 738s and 739s can't go that slow!
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!
We certainly don't have a problem with 160 to 4 on the wonderbus and our final approach speed can be as low as 120 kts. The only difference is we might start slowing at 4.5d like the others to ensure we're doing 160 kts with the engines at idle as we pass 4d. It's not a problem in turbulence or windshear either, but that could be because Vfe for our landing flap setting is 177 kts! On a slightly similar note over the last few days at LHR I've had two seperate controllers tell me we was getting increased spacing as we were following a 757. Thats a new one on me!
BTW who do I call to visit the tower?
BTW who do I call to visit the tower?
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Thompsonfly;
What you may have heard from someone is that US controllers do get paid by the airplane <G>... We are rated facility wide by both the complexity of the operation as well as the throughput of aircraft... So yes, the faster we get them on and off, and the more we do it with, the more we get paid... I think that you will find in most of Europe it isn't that way.
regards
Scott
What you may have heard from someone is that US controllers do get paid by the airplane <G>... We are rated facility wide by both the complexity of the operation as well as the throughput of aircraft... So yes, the faster we get them on and off, and the more we do it with, the more we get paid... I think that you will find in most of Europe it isn't that way.
regards
Scott
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Just to reiterate, although we start moving speed bugs (and possibly flaps) at 4.5dme, we do still keep 160kt until 4dme. I wouldn't want someone joining the thread later on to think that we were not abiding by our clearances.
With respect to the 767, there is no hard and fast answer here (no pun intended). Because we operate the 767 over a wide range of weights and because it has different flap limit speeds to the 757, sometimes we need to start dialing things back at 4.5dme and sometimes we can wait until 4dme.
For the technically minded, we take gear down and Flap 20 at 2000' aal (6dme), The flap limit speeds for F20 are 195kt on the 757 and 210kt on the 767. 160kt to 4dme should not be a problem even with the recent high winds. Accuracy will obviously not be to our usual high standard!
A problem might occur when slowing down if the aircraft is very light. A 757 with a 66000kg landing weight will have a Vref of 111kt. With a landing planned at Vref+10 (allowing for a 20kt ish headwind) and a company requirement to try to be stable at 1000' and definitely be stable by 500' (I have paraphrased here), 40kts of slowing down has to occur from 4dme to 3dme. Not impossible, but with gusty winds not helping, potentially challenging.
I suspect vector4fun works in the USA where continuous decent approaches do not seem to be de rigueur. Slowing down when level is obviously considerably more simple than when descending on a 3 degree slope.
At the risk of becoming boring, but since we are talking about windshear and stuff that that. Any TWR controllers at airfields with a low go-around altitude (eg 2000') who might want to know how to help a pilot carrying out a windshear go-around might like to consider calling approach for higher (only if time and workload permit obviously). During a windshear go-around, the aircraft goes up like a lift and 2000' arrives VERY quickly!
Sorry to witter on. Just my views. Yours
G W-H
With respect to the 767, there is no hard and fast answer here (no pun intended). Because we operate the 767 over a wide range of weights and because it has different flap limit speeds to the 757, sometimes we need to start dialing things back at 4.5dme and sometimes we can wait until 4dme.
For the technically minded, we take gear down and Flap 20 at 2000' aal (6dme), The flap limit speeds for F20 are 195kt on the 757 and 210kt on the 767. 160kt to 4dme should not be a problem even with the recent high winds. Accuracy will obviously not be to our usual high standard!
A problem might occur when slowing down if the aircraft is very light. A 757 with a 66000kg landing weight will have a Vref of 111kt. With a landing planned at Vref+10 (allowing for a 20kt ish headwind) and a company requirement to try to be stable at 1000' and definitely be stable by 500' (I have paraphrased here), 40kts of slowing down has to occur from 4dme to 3dme. Not impossible, but with gusty winds not helping, potentially challenging.
I suspect vector4fun works in the USA where continuous decent approaches do not seem to be de rigueur. Slowing down when level is obviously considerably more simple than when descending on a 3 degree slope.
At the risk of becoming boring, but since we are talking about windshear and stuff that that. Any TWR controllers at airfields with a low go-around altitude (eg 2000') who might want to know how to help a pilot carrying out a windshear go-around might like to consider calling approach for higher (only if time and workload permit obviously). During a windshear go-around, the aircraft goes up like a lift and 2000' arrives VERY quickly!
Sorry to witter on. Just my views. Yours
G W-H
