Manch low vis go arounds last week
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Manch low vis go arounds last week
A bit late posting this but as we don't get to see you guys on the jump seat any more I thought I'd mention it.
I was one of the aircraft that had to go around last week because preceeding missed the high speed.
After the tour of north Manchester I too was unable to vacate at BD which was greeted by an irritated female controller asking us to expedite at the end.
At the risk of insulting peoples intelligence I shall cover all the factors
1. For a Cat 2 approach we can only use Flap 22 (not flap 45) for landing. This increases our landing speed by 8 knots increasing landing distance exponentially.
2. Because we have to stick with the glide slope we will penetrate deeper than she would like (ie gligeslope landing distance rather than the threshold landing distance if guided using PAPIS)
3. On the day in question it was wet (this increases our our landing distance by,typically, 250 metres).
4. Normally in cat 2 conditions there is no significant headwind component. This has a similar effect on performance to a wet runway (when compared to a 20 knot headwind day)
With regard to expediting to the end.
5. I seem to remember the ICAO recommended speed for high speed turn offs is 50 knots (you would not want to be vacating at A1 (90 degrees) at more than 10 knots when wet).
6. We are unable to maintain 80 knots to 300 metres then slam on and hope the anti skid stops us going off the end!
I did not pass comment over the radio as there was too much going on but cat 2 approaches are the most risk heavy activity undertaken during routine line flying and it was not appreciated. This is the second time at Manch recently I have had a tower controller getting stroppy (last time I did call on the landline). Although some of my colleagues on the flight deck have serious problems in the IP skills department the controllers have not historically lowered themselves to that standard).
My little BACX EMB 145 has a wing optimised for economical cruise flight. It climbs like a dog (as you know) and its low speed performance is poor. End result longer landing distances than you would expect from something which lands at 19 tonnes (max).
I have been on here before singing the praises of UK ATC (esp Man and BHX) would someone please do me a favour put this in m'ladys drop file.
Edit 4 typos
I was one of the aircraft that had to go around last week because preceeding missed the high speed.
After the tour of north Manchester I too was unable to vacate at BD which was greeted by an irritated female controller asking us to expedite at the end.
At the risk of insulting peoples intelligence I shall cover all the factors
1. For a Cat 2 approach we can only use Flap 22 (not flap 45) for landing. This increases our landing speed by 8 knots increasing landing distance exponentially.
2. Because we have to stick with the glide slope we will penetrate deeper than she would like (ie gligeslope landing distance rather than the threshold landing distance if guided using PAPIS)
3. On the day in question it was wet (this increases our our landing distance by,typically, 250 metres).
4. Normally in cat 2 conditions there is no significant headwind component. This has a similar effect on performance to a wet runway (when compared to a 20 knot headwind day)
With regard to expediting to the end.
5. I seem to remember the ICAO recommended speed for high speed turn offs is 50 knots (you would not want to be vacating at A1 (90 degrees) at more than 10 knots when wet).
6. We are unable to maintain 80 knots to 300 metres then slam on and hope the anti skid stops us going off the end!
I did not pass comment over the radio as there was too much going on but cat 2 approaches are the most risk heavy activity undertaken during routine line flying and it was not appreciated. This is the second time at Manch recently I have had a tower controller getting stroppy (last time I did call on the landline). Although some of my colleagues on the flight deck have serious problems in the IP skills department the controllers have not historically lowered themselves to that standard).
My little BACX EMB 145 has a wing optimised for economical cruise flight. It climbs like a dog (as you know) and its low speed performance is poor. End result longer landing distances than you would expect from something which lands at 19 tonnes (max).
I have been on here before singing the praises of UK ATC (esp Man and BHX) would someone please do me a favour put this in m'ladys drop file.
Edit 4 typos
Last edited by alosaurus; 30th Nov 2004 at 18:57.
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Question:
Why the use of less flap on the approach? Wouldn't that also necessitate a higher angle of attack, making the lights even harder to see at DH?
To me (not a pilot), slow as possible seems the way to be going. I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I can't figure it out!
Thanks
cdb
To me (not a pilot), slow as possible seems the way to be going. I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I can't figure it out!
Thanks
cdb
Do not know the specifics of this aircraft, but it could be down to single engine performance in going round below 200 feet. The requirements can be very restrictive especially in icing conditions. Less flap will reduce drag in the G/A and improve performance. Of course lower deck angle and lower app speed is desired, but sometimes not possible.
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SIM FAM
This thread shows the value of Pilot/Controller communication and education. We used to share this type of information during FAM Flights, but in many parts of the world, the Familiarization Flight programs have been eliminated.
Perhaps there's some way ATC professionals could "fly along" during some of the airline simulator training. This would allow pilots and controllers the chance to discuss aircraft and pilot performance as relates to ATC, just as the FAM flights did.
Of course, at the other side of things, pilots please understand that you are always welcome in ATC facilities. I know it's a hassle to come see us, but we need to see you just as much as you benefit from seeing our operations.
As for my facility, next time you fly into sunny San Juan, give me a call at 787-253-8694 and we'll get you a ride to come see us!
ATC 24/7
Perhaps there's some way ATC professionals could "fly along" during some of the airline simulator training. This would allow pilots and controllers the chance to discuss aircraft and pilot performance as relates to ATC, just as the FAM flights did.
Of course, at the other side of things, pilots please understand that you are always welcome in ATC facilities. I know it's a hassle to come see us, but we need to see you just as much as you benefit from seeing our operations.
As for my facility, next time you fly into sunny San Juan, give me a call at 787-253-8694 and we'll get you a ride to come see us!
ATC 24/7
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It all depends on aircraft single engine climb performance. During cat2/3 procedures, you have to assume a go-around from DA. Obviously, you are lower down and therefore have to achieve a better climb gradient. There is a standard CAA and JAA limit but I can't remember what it is. Think it's 2.1% but that might be Cat 1.
In laymens terms, aircraft don't climb as well with landing flap as with an intermediate flap setting ergo better performance if you have to go-around from low down.
In laymens terms, aircraft don't climb as well with landing flap as with an intermediate flap setting ergo better performance if you have to go-around from low down.
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On the 145 flap 22 is used because of its go around performance.
If we didnt see enuff lights at the 100' decision alt then a go around with flap 45 would see the aircraft and ground meet for an unscheduled impact absorbtion test.
Even with flap 22 we have to engage go around mode,then pause to check the aircraft pitches up, BEFORE applying any thrust (does not feel right as you watch the speed bleeding back). There have been a number of 145s that touched down during flap 22 go arounds (with full thrust applied from the nose down attitude).
I forgot to mention we have an approach ban on practice cat 2 approaches into Cork (after one of our number ended up with burst tyres at the end of its wet runway).
If we didnt see enuff lights at the 100' decision alt then a go around with flap 45 would see the aircraft and ground meet for an unscheduled impact absorbtion test.
Even with flap 22 we have to engage go around mode,then pause to check the aircraft pitches up, BEFORE applying any thrust (does not feel right as you watch the speed bleeding back). There have been a number of 145s that touched down during flap 22 go arounds (with full thrust applied from the nose down attitude).
I forgot to mention we have an approach ban on practice cat 2 approaches into Cork (after one of our number ended up with burst tyres at the end of its wet runway).
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Hi alosaurus
Low Vis ops can be very frustrating for all concerned.
As I'm sure you're very aware, there are at MAN differing categories of operation: one where all exits are available and one where only BD and A are available (for 24R). These differences were introduced by ATC to increase capacity when the cloud ceiling is the sole cause for the low vis ops. The visibility was determined to be good enough to use all of the exits. When the cause is low vis., however, things slow right down.
If we're trying to get a departure out between every arrival, spacing is based on prevailing conditions and experience. It usually works out at about 10-12 miles between arrivals in CAT2. This is based on aircraft exiting at BD. When the inevitable happens and traffic misses it, the controller is left with traffic lined up and a probable missed approach. Do we hedge our bets and not line one up only to be left with a missed hole when you make BD? No we go for every reasonable one and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Hence the frustration.
If we were to plan for the worst case scenario every time, arrival delays would be huge and extremely wasteful with arrival spacing of 15 miles or more required but not always needed. There's nothing worse for you than tours of the TMA and possible diversions, and there's nothing worse for us than one mile less space than we end up needing.
What is needed is the ability to use all of the exits in all conditions, but that comes down to £££ and whether the airport operator think that the not insubstantial investment is worth it for the inconvenience and frayed tempers encountered on just a few days a year. I think the answer is a resounding "no".
Hope that helps fill in the blanks from our side of the mic.
Low Vis ops can be very frustrating for all concerned.
As I'm sure you're very aware, there are at MAN differing categories of operation: one where all exits are available and one where only BD and A are available (for 24R). These differences were introduced by ATC to increase capacity when the cloud ceiling is the sole cause for the low vis ops. The visibility was determined to be good enough to use all of the exits. When the cause is low vis., however, things slow right down.
If we're trying to get a departure out between every arrival, spacing is based on prevailing conditions and experience. It usually works out at about 10-12 miles between arrivals in CAT2. This is based on aircraft exiting at BD. When the inevitable happens and traffic misses it, the controller is left with traffic lined up and a probable missed approach. Do we hedge our bets and not line one up only to be left with a missed hole when you make BD? No we go for every reasonable one and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Hence the frustration.
If we were to plan for the worst case scenario every time, arrival delays would be huge and extremely wasteful with arrival spacing of 15 miles or more required but not always needed. There's nothing worse for you than tours of the TMA and possible diversions, and there's nothing worse for us than one mile less space than we end up needing.
What is needed is the ability to use all of the exits in all conditions, but that comes down to £££ and whether the airport operator think that the not insubstantial investment is worth it for the inconvenience and frayed tempers encountered on just a few days a year. I think the answer is a resounding "no".
Hope that helps fill in the blanks from our side of the mic.
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Thanks for the answer guys!
atcea.com, don't go pretending the USA is any better. I spent a year trying to get a visit to Boston enroute centre without any luck (I used to live near Manchester).
atcea.com, don't go pretending the USA is any better. I spent a year trying to get a visit to Boston enroute centre without any luck (I used to live near Manchester).
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A very interesting thread. I appreciate, alosaurus, you are talking about the EMB145 and Cat 2, but does anyone know if other aircraft types do this (different flap settings during Lo Vis), and what about Cat 3A/B ?
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atcea.com, don't go pretending the USA is any better. I spent a year trying to get a visit to Boston enroute centre without any luck (I used to live near Manchester).
Puerto Rico is a territory of the US, which I'm sure you British would appreciate it when I say I "plundered the colony" in the shapely form of 5'6' 110 lbs. PR has the good points of the US without the bad points, er, culture. And when you park your car for the visit, any spot is fine if you can get your car in, under, on, or around it. 
Things are much more relaxed there, cdb, enjoy!
Things are much more relaxed there, cdb, enjoy!
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Plundering's what we do!
I'm currently trying to organize the Ellesmere Port coffee party, where we all throw Starbucks lattes into the Manchester Ship Canal after refusing to pay for them. That'll show Bush.....
I'm currently trying to organize the Ellesmere Port coffee party, where we all throw Starbucks lattes into the Manchester Ship Canal after refusing to pay for them. That'll show Bush.....
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Cossack - Long time no speak ( I seem to remember it was delays to be expected for the various low vis states last time ..the minimum fuel thread)
The approach in question was based on 500M RVR so it was a cat 2 and (if heavy) we may well miss BD
For the pure cloud LVPs many people elect to do a cat one approach and with 45 flap we should make BD
For my part I will emphasise to the BACX people that missing BD is likely to result in a go around for the a/c behind us. It might just focus the mind for marginal weight approaches and encourage a little heavier braking once the nosewheel is down
From your side all I am asking is patience if we don't make it; the tone of said lady was that of a school teacher/child. Whilst I quite like to be dominated by women in certain circumstances that tends to be outside work!
In work I don't dish it out so I am disapointed when on the receiving end
The approach in question was based on 500M RVR so it was a cat 2 and (if heavy) we may well miss BD
For the pure cloud LVPs many people elect to do a cat one approach and with 45 flap we should make BD
For my part I will emphasise to the BACX people that missing BD is likely to result in a go around for the a/c behind us. It might just focus the mind for marginal weight approaches and encourage a little heavier braking once the nosewheel is down
From your side all I am asking is patience if we don't make it; the tone of said lady was that of a school teacher/child. Whilst I quite like to be dominated by women in certain circumstances that tends to be outside work!
In work I don't dish it out so I am disapointed when on the receiving end
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It has indeed been a while! I have, however, moved on but since there were no replies forthcoming from my ex-colleagues, I thought I'd chip in.
If there is a good chance of you not making BD then you could always inform Radar early on and they might put a few extra miles between you and the guy behind you. A bit of extra braking wouldn't do any harm either, but if you know you're likely to miss it, just roll on down to the end without trying to make it may well provide a better result.
I can't think who that would be. 
All the best
DC
If there is a good chance of you not making BD then you could always inform Radar early on and they might put a few extra miles between you and the guy behind you. A bit of extra braking wouldn't do any harm either, but if you know you're likely to miss it, just roll on down to the end without trying to make it may well provide a better result.
the tone of said lady was that of a school teacher/child
All the best
DC