BBC1: "Breaking News - computer failure grounds UK flights"(Merged)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NERC
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2. At LATCC, when HCS was offline there was no conflict alert available to the radar controllers. Is this still the case at Swanwick? and what is the situation at Scottish and Manchester?
Pegase Driver
Dear DEZI :
You ask a lot of questions to us , but when someone asks you one you stall:
quoting Mr Chips :
Please tell us why you have such an interest, and why you seem to think that there is so much more to this story...
Please answer that one fist I for one would be very interested to hear YOUR story.
You ask a lot of questions to us , but when someone asks you one you stall:
quoting Mr Chips :
Please tell us why you have such an interest, and why you seem to think that there is so much more to this story...
Please answer that one fist I for one would be very interested to hear YOUR story.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And before anybody starts waving the "why have you lot got your backs up and are getting stuck into Dezi" flag, I'll just remind:
What exactly are you looking for? Somebody on the inside to reveal that a disgruntled employee cut a wire? Somebody spilt some coffee down the back of a server? It's been established that the media were clutching at straws to get a story. Mr. Chips gave an excellent description of what happens at that time of the morning, and yet you're still not happy enough. Experience tells me that when somebody is posed with a question and they dodge it, there's somthing they are hiding. The question to you still stands.
everyone has a right to know exactly what happened
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: London
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dezi
Alright, I admit it, it was me. i faked the whole thing, and I'd have got away with it too if it hadn't been for those pesky kids. Ok, apologies to Scooby Doo....
Dezi. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO THIS STORY
Now, please answer the questions posed to you, or go away.
Experience has taught me things don't wrong without reason.
Dezi. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO THIS STORY
Now, please answer the questions posed to you, or go away.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info regarding HCS and conflict alert.
I always considered it unreal that during your normal operations we frequently got calls like "ABC123 confirm cleared level FL230" which I found out was in response to your conflict alert going off (our high climb rate) and the controller making sure that we were not going to bust our cleared level but when the system is operating on the bypass we never got the same warnings because (as I found out during a visit), the conflict alert did not work.
Regards,
DFC
I always considered it unreal that during your normal operations we frequently got calls like "ABC123 confirm cleared level FL230" which I found out was in response to your conflict alert going off (our high climb rate) and the controller making sure that we were not going to bust our cleared level but when the system is operating on the bypass we never got the same warnings because (as I found out during a visit), the conflict alert did not work.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many times does a computer need restarting? Just a general home computer with bits of simple software on it? It will happen at some time in its life due to a hole host of unexplicable reasons - so think of the ATC Host computer and what it has to do. Think that it normally operates 24hrs/7 days. At least once a month its taken off-line for a while to update and clean it up (remove the cache/temporary files and then defragment for a really simple bad example). Just so happens that this time it decided to fail, so got a reboot and now works fine. Yes delays had to ensue - but thats safety for you.
Well done to those working at the time and those that then had to shift the carnage once back on-line, almost seemless from what I hear.
Well done to those working at the time and those that then had to shift the carnage once back on-line, almost seemless from what I hear.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many times does a computer need restarting? Just a general home computer with bits of simple software on it? It will happen at some time in its life due to a hole host of unexplicable reasons - so think of the ATC Host computer and what it has to do. Think that it normally operates 24hrs/7 days. At least once a month its taken off-line for a while to update and clean it up (remove the cache/temporary files and then defragment for a really simple bad example).
Most of my servers at work only get rebooted annually so that the building H&S people can PAT test the mains leads...
(I won't let them anywhere near the boxes themselves)In another building where their not quite so enthusiastic I have one server that's been up for 618 days (and is still operating normally) ...
Now I appreciate that the ATC system is a very different kind of beast; my point simply was that a well-designed computer systems don't have to be rebooted just to keep it running, which most PCs seem to. They should only need rebooting when something significant has changed. $0.02...
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of Watford
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RTFM,
I think you need to have a chat with your H&S folks. If the kit don't move, it can have its PAT moved way beyond 1 year. If the leads are tied into the racking, negotiate with them for at least a three year gap. They have the freedom to move it out to FIVE years if they read the regulations right.
ST
I think you need to have a chat with your H&S folks. If the kit don't move, it can have its PAT moved way beyond 1 year. If the leads are tied into the racking, negotiate with them for at least a three year gap. They have the freedom to move it out to FIVE years if they read the regulations right.
ST
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SoftTop,
You know that, I know that, but the infernal auditors which these days run all operational aspects of large organisations "just want to be on the safe side" 
Any suggestion to the contrary is met with the inevitable "so you are anti safety then... 
av8boy,
Apologies for thread-creep. haven't played with a blade yet, but may be able to help (SPARC or IA ?)
I think you need to have a chat with your H&S folks. If the kit don't move, it can have its PAT moved way beyond 1 year. If the leads are tied into the racking, negotiate with them for at least a three year gap. They have the freedom to move it out to FIVE years if they read the regulations right.
Any suggestion to the contrary is met with the inevitable "so you are anti safety then... av8boy,
If this is going to turn into an IT and hardware thread, I have some blade server questions..
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hongkers
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flowman
Sorry for not reading the whole thread in case this was covered already but going back about 5 pages you said:
Can you just confirm for me what your average sector capacities are under normal conditions?
We are by no means busy here compared to many other places in the world I would have thought, but our sectors are expected to handle at least 36 to 40 movements per hour for enroute and up to 45 for Departures, even if consolidated.
Am I misunderstanding you or what?
Sorry for not reading the whole thread in case this was covered already but going back about 5 pages you said:
The combined sectors had a capacity of 20 flights per hour, the demand was 60 flights per hour.
We are by no means busy here compared to many other places in the world I would have thought, but our sectors are expected to handle at least 36 to 40 movements per hour for enroute and up to 45 for Departures, even if consolidated.
Am I misunderstanding you or what?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets see now.
Largest ANSP un Europe with the lowest delay shift the most traffic with maximum safety. Does not sound too bad that really. Anyone else in the world claim that? Movements V Safety? Density of airspace? Years of under investement....
Then the HCS falls over for a few minutes and we have all this fuss. Even just following the failure our flow rates were still the stuff of dreams for many ANSP's.
Our controllers are the best. In the world - bar none.
Our engineers are the best. Ditto.
Our systems specialists are the best. Double Ditto
Our management are - hmmmmm - bit more thought required there....
A very well done to all those involved. Including me!
Largest ANSP un Europe with the lowest delay shift the most traffic with maximum safety. Does not sound too bad that really. Anyone else in the world claim that? Movements V Safety? Density of airspace? Years of under investement....
Then the HCS falls over for a few minutes and we have all this fuss. Even just following the failure our flow rates were still the stuff of dreams for many ANSP's.
Our controllers are the best. In the world - bar none.
Our engineers are the best. Ditto.
Our systems specialists are the best. Double Ditto
Our management are - hmmmmm - bit more thought required there....
A very well done to all those involved. Including me!
Time merchant
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bekolblockage
Your question as to why the combined sectors had such a low capacity would need to be answered by one of the London flow people. Sufficient to say that they don't just think of a number, these things are calculated well in advance and adjusted in real time according to the actual traffic complexity.
The capacity is reduced to 20/60 for manual data processing. It's normally 30/60 for normal ops.
flowman
Your question as to why the combined sectors had such a low capacity would need to be answered by one of the London flow people. Sufficient to say that they don't just think of a number, these things are calculated well in advance and adjusted in real time according to the actual traffic complexity.
The capacity is reduced to 20/60 for manual data processing. It's normally 30/60 for normal ops.
flowman
Last edited by flowman; 12th Jun 2004 at 18:09.
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Buckinghamshire
Age: 61
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Computing magazine has published a story on this UK, if interested its here: http://www.computing.co.uk/News/1155745
