How would you deal with this scenario?
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Some centers in the US have done away with monitoring 121.5 as a cost saving measure. The ones that have done so have enough terminals and FSS outlets that can monitor... We still have UHF guard though.. Military primary at times...
Scott
Scott
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Unless I missed it, no-one seems to have suggested calling 121.5 for a practice Pan. Listen out for a while to make sure there's no-one in real trouble, then give them a call requesting a practice Pan. Do this in a nice quiet bit of airspace, when you're not working another frequency. Think through beforehand of a suitable scenario, eg getting stuck in IMC, an ill passenger and you need to divert to a suitable airfield, etc.
I always taught my students to do this. Firstly to appreciate just how helpful everyone is, and secondly to encourage the student to use 121.5 promptly if they ever need it.
Just keep your airmanship going and don't switch off the old brainbox, because when you've finished you'll need to continue aviating and navigating.
I always taught my students to do this. Firstly to appreciate just how helpful everyone is, and secondly to encourage the student to use 121.5 promptly if they ever need it.
Just keep your airmanship going and don't switch off the old brainbox, because when you've finished you'll need to continue aviating and navigating.
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Very very good suggestion TD&H.
D&D who are on 121.5 I have been told encourage practise pans for their own benifit more than anything else. I have never had a problem with practise pans and sometimes you get a call afterwards asking if it was good for you
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I must admit I was a bit wary the first time I tried it.
I would check the wx for the whole of the UK before you have a go. If there are large areas with fog, but not yours of course. They might be a bit busy on the landlines. But if you do try and they give you a knockback, don't take it personally they are just busy on the landlines. Try again another day.
MJ
D&D who are on 121.5 I have been told encourage practise pans for their own benifit more than anything else. I have never had a problem with practise pans and sometimes you get a call afterwards asking if it was good for you
.I must admit I was a bit wary the first time I tried it.
I would check the wx for the whole of the UK before you have a go. If there are large areas with fog, but not yours of course
. They might be a bit busy on the landlines. But if you do try and they give you a knockback, don't take it personally they are just busy on the landlines. Try again another day.MJ
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Out of interest, what would D&D do with a practice pan where the scenario is, say, accidental entry into IMC? It's pretty obvious how they'd handle some scenarios, e.g. uncertainty of position, but others must be quite difficult to "imagine" when it's not real?
FFF
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FFF
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Mad Jock:
I visited D&D at West Drayton about a year ago and was suitably impressed. They made the point that they do welcome Practice Pans.
So, travelling back from Ireland to Kemble via Haverfordwest we decided to put it to the test. About 30 miles east of Haverfordwest at F055 or F075 (I forget which), we called for practice pan, simulating lost. We were given a squawk and the position fix came quickly and was verified as accurate by GPS. With D&D's permission we continued the simulated emergency by requesting vectors for Swansea. Over the next ten minutes, we were vectored exactly overhead the airfield with increasingly small and frequent heading changes as we got closer. Final position was spot on, confirmed by looking down. D&D used radar, I think the feed was from Clee Hill. If I remember correctly, they can switch-in feed from any one of many radar heads, giving tremendous flexibility,
Had we really been lost and needed help to find the airport, it would have been very easy for the pilot. No doubt the same result could have been achieved at many radar units, although I'm not sure how low we could have operated and still be given vectors.
AA.
I visited D&D at West Drayton about a year ago and was suitably impressed. They made the point that they do welcome Practice Pans.
So, travelling back from Ireland to Kemble via Haverfordwest we decided to put it to the test. About 30 miles east of Haverfordwest at F055 or F075 (I forget which), we called for practice pan, simulating lost. We were given a squawk and the position fix came quickly and was verified as accurate by GPS. With D&D's permission we continued the simulated emergency by requesting vectors for Swansea. Over the next ten minutes, we were vectored exactly overhead the airfield with increasingly small and frequent heading changes as we got closer. Final position was spot on, confirmed by looking down. D&D used radar, I think the feed was from Clee Hill. If I remember correctly, they can switch-in feed from any one of many radar heads, giving tremendous flexibility,
Had we really been lost and needed help to find the airport, it would have been very easy for the pilot. No doubt the same result could have been achieved at many radar units, although I'm not sure how low we could have operated and still be given vectors.
AA.
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practice pan where the scenario is, say, accidental entry into IMC?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Wiseguy,
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I'll see if I can describe what I mean better.
Imagine you're flying along, perfectly happy that you know where you are. You call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them you're uncertain of your position - not because you are uncertain of your position (because you're not), but maybe because you're an instructor demonstrating to a student what they can do for you. As alphaalpha describes, they will treat you as if you are unsure of your position, give you a fix, and vector you if you ask them to.
Now, imagine you are flying along on a beautifully clear VMC day. you call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them that you've inadvertantly entered IMC - not because you have entered VMC - you haven't (and if you had, I agree that it would be a Pan Pan, not a Practice Pan), but because you want to give them some practice, or show a student pilot what they can do for you. This, I think, is what TD&H was suggesting a few posts back. What would they do in this situation?
Sorry if my original question wasn't clear! And if it still isn't clear... well, don't worry, because it's probably not an important enough question to spend too much time on!
FFF
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Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I'll see if I can describe what I mean better.
Imagine you're flying along, perfectly happy that you know where you are. You call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them you're uncertain of your position - not because you are uncertain of your position (because you're not), but maybe because you're an instructor demonstrating to a student what they can do for you. As alphaalpha describes, they will treat you as if you are unsure of your position, give you a fix, and vector you if you ask them to.
Now, imagine you are flying along on a beautifully clear VMC day. you call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them that you've inadvertantly entered IMC - not because you have entered VMC - you haven't (and if you had, I agree that it would be a Pan Pan, not a Practice Pan), but because you want to give them some practice, or show a student pilot what they can do for you. This, I think, is what TD&H was suggesting a few posts back. What would they do in this situation?
Sorry if my original question wasn't clear! And if it still isn't clear... well, don't worry, because it's probably not an important enough question to spend too much time on!
FFF
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We have a few more problems in the highlands, due mostly to lossie claiming there radar is better than it really is. So D&D have to work on DF which with all that high ground is pretty pants. But even so it all still works.
Go for it be confident, keep in practise, use ATC for what the are good at.
As I tried to hint at earlier they are speaking from the same script as the pilots. They like nothing better than getting an aircraft on the ground safely. It justifes their jobs for gods sake. If us pilots could managed to organise ourselves properly and manage to avoid each other without their help they would be outa work
And have to spend more time with thier wifes which wouldn't go down well.
You should stop thinking them and us. Although there is a debate about who is requesting a service and who is controlling a flight. All the real proffessionals know its a team game we all have to work together.
I know for a fact if I was on freq with a PPL who was in trouble and needed a Instructer type voice to calm things down. The capt would go single crew ops until flight safety would be effected and we wouldn't get a bollocking for doing it.
EVERYONE wants to help.
MJ
Go for it be confident, keep in practise, use ATC for what the are good at.
As I tried to hint at earlier they are speaking from the same script as the pilots. They like nothing better than getting an aircraft on the ground safely. It justifes their jobs for gods sake. If us pilots could managed to organise ourselves properly and manage to avoid each other without their help they would be outa work
And have to spend more time with thier wifes which wouldn't go down well.
You should stop thinking them and us. Although there is a debate about who is requesting a service and who is controlling a flight. All the real proffessionals know its a team game we all have to work together.
I know for a fact if I was on freq with a PPL who was in trouble and needed a Instructer type voice to calm things down. The capt would go single crew ops until flight safety would be effected and we wouldn't get a bollocking for doing it.
EVERYONE wants to help.
MJ
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I got taught to fly by Her Majesty's official flying club. We declared some sort of practise emergency on practically every trip [including calling D&D]. This meant that when the wheels came off for real, we just dialled straight into "Guard" [that's 243.0 to Mil, or 121.5 to civvies] and used the full range of ATC options available without a second thought. Lost, faulty aeroplane, didn't matter. The simple fact is that we were used to doing it, so didn't have to think twice.
I've flown puddle-jumpers here and in the U.S. since leaving the forces, and have always been bemused by the reluctance of most PPLs to call for help. I would urge any flight instructors to regularly get their students to practise various emergencies, using the recomended MO for the "Practice Pan" call in a TD&H's post. Once they know that they won't get bitten by ATC for doing so, they will have the confidence to make the call early enough if things ever go pear-shaped, and thus give ATC a chance to save their sorry butts.
I've flown puddle-jumpers here and in the U.S. since leaving the forces, and have always been bemused by the reluctance of most PPLs to call for help. I would urge any flight instructors to regularly get their students to practise various emergencies, using the recomended MO for the "Practice Pan" call in a TD&H's post. Once they know that they won't get bitten by ATC for doing so, they will have the confidence to make the call early enough if things ever go pear-shaped, and thus give ATC a chance to save their sorry butts.
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W Collins asks questions about 121.5 and the right to transmitt and/or be the Controlling Authority.
I am led to believe that the UK is the only state world-wide that has a control position (namely 'D&D' in the case of both our FIRs), soley dedicated to the task of monitoring 121.5 & 243.0 and retaining executive control over all distress situations whithin their area of responsability. Therefore, what follows applies to UK airspace only. Furthermore, I can only comment as someone outside D&D, but the way I have been taught is that D&D retain executive control of all emergency situations within their FIR. Any other controller finding himself working distress traffic (on any frequency) should inform D&D as soon as practicable. I have never come across any responce other than that the unit working the emergency traffic at that time is ceded operational control by D&D, but they will be doing a lot of admin behind the scenes on your behalf.
As for transmitting on 'guard', the situation is thus: Any call on 'guard' should be answered by D&D. If it is obvious that neither they or anyone else is responding and you are in a position to offer assistance (either directly or by message relay) then you should. This applies equally wether you be a ground station or an aircraft.
Additionally, any unit can request through D&D the use of 'guard' to contact an aircraft they have lost communications with.
On the subject of practice calls from aircraft to D&D, certainly a good idea and TD&H makes some extremely valid points: Listen out first in case a real emergency is on-going, inform the unit you are working (if any) what you are doing and think up a good scenario before-hand. Mad-Jock points out that a foggy day might not be the best time to do this, but equally neither is a cast-iron VFR bank-holiday week-end (imagine how tiresome the forty-eighth practise pan for that hour can be!) Go for a boring, grey, mid-week afternoon when we could all use a bit of artificial excitment to see us through to the end of the watch!
A very interesting thread with av8boy proffering more good advice & common sense than any one person should be rightfully entitled to!
I am led to believe that the UK is the only state world-wide that has a control position (namely 'D&D' in the case of both our FIRs), soley dedicated to the task of monitoring 121.5 & 243.0 and retaining executive control over all distress situations whithin their area of responsability. Therefore, what follows applies to UK airspace only. Furthermore, I can only comment as someone outside D&D, but the way I have been taught is that D&D retain executive control of all emergency situations within their FIR. Any other controller finding himself working distress traffic (on any frequency) should inform D&D as soon as practicable. I have never come across any responce other than that the unit working the emergency traffic at that time is ceded operational control by D&D, but they will be doing a lot of admin behind the scenes on your behalf.
As for transmitting on 'guard', the situation is thus: Any call on 'guard' should be answered by D&D. If it is obvious that neither they or anyone else is responding and you are in a position to offer assistance (either directly or by message relay) then you should. This applies equally wether you be a ground station or an aircraft.
Additionally, any unit can request through D&D the use of 'guard' to contact an aircraft they have lost communications with.
On the subject of practice calls from aircraft to D&D, certainly a good idea and TD&H makes some extremely valid points: Listen out first in case a real emergency is on-going, inform the unit you are working (if any) what you are doing and think up a good scenario before-hand. Mad-Jock points out that a foggy day might not be the best time to do this, but equally neither is a cast-iron VFR bank-holiday week-end (imagine how tiresome the forty-eighth practise pan for that hour can be!) Go for a boring, grey, mid-week afternoon when we could all use a bit of artificial excitment to see us through to the end of the watch!
A very interesting thread with av8boy proffering more good advice & common sense than any one person should be rightfully entitled to!
Last edited by Hippy; 24th Dec 2003 at 09:40.
