How would you deal with this scenario?

[ferris]

In a radar environment, the problem is very easily and very quickly solved.
You can only get yourself into more trouble by staying quiet. One of the things the inspector who has a chat with you (after you get down) will want see demonstrated is responsibilty. If you made a mistake, quickly fessed up, learned, moved on, you will come out of it much better than trying to 'get away' with something.
I once heard the FAA claimed the average time before a non IR pilot lost control of the aircraft when confronted with IMC was 45 seconds! (I think it is automatically a Distress Phase???)

Just for interest: I have had a pilot in exactly the situation you describe, except it was a non-radar environment. He was trapped in a valley which he thought contained a strip. His options were to land, or climb thru the thin layer until on top of cloud. We recommended he land, but on his inspection realised it was not a strip and was unsuitable to land on. We confirmed he was not where he thought by ringing someone at that strip and asking if there was a cessna circling. So he was lost, in and out of cloud, and beginning to panic. He had a lot of endurance, which gave us some options. We got an experienced pilot who was a controller to talk to him about what he had to do (maintain vis with terrain etc), what instruments he had etc. which helped calm him, while we rang around police stations etc trying to pinpoint his location. Eventually he found a gap in the cloud and climbed on top. Meanwhile, all the RPT traffic in quite a large area were grounded while we sorted him out. Eventually he got high enough to receive a ground aid, and he got talked all the way to a large airport (he was nowhere near where he thought). No-one complained about the delay, he wasn't charged with anything, and I'm sure it saved his plane, and maybe his life. It made our day a bit more interesting, too.
Moral: Speak up.

[Sensible]

When I was fresh out of my PPL training and out in Florida hour building, I visit various airports ending up in the Florida Keys. There are two days left before I need to be at the airport for my commercial flight back to the UK. So it’s time to return the airplane to Ormond. There is a weather front moving down from the North and after a flight briefing when “marginal conditions possible together with embedded thunderstorms” are mentioned, a route suggested by the Flight Briefer is up the West Coast, through the frontal system and then a right turn in clearer conditions over to Ormond. Ok, we take off into cloudy sky from Marathon, but no problems as the clouds are well above us. As we fly up the coast, the clouds are getting lower and visibility is getting worse, I reduce altitude to remain VFR and things are not looking anything like as good as my expectations but then the briefer did say that it was clearer the other side of the weather front and the front is exactly where the briefer said it would be and we only had about another 5-10 miles before conditions improve so I press on! Visibility gets worse and I descend to 1000ft agl but conditions continue to deteriorate, worse still, it starts to rain, I do a 180 turn but the weather behind had also closed in! The clouds are visibly descending. I can’t fly and look for the radio frequency of a close airport to land and in any event, I had turned 180 degrees and now exactly where was I? I had descended to 600' agl and could only just make out the ground beneath. I called up 121.5 fearful that I would be too low to be in radio contact with anyone. Luck was with me, my transmission was picked up by Ft Myers International ATC who gave me a frequency change and I then explained the problem and my altitude to the controller who gave me a transponder squawk and identified my position, I had to descend to 300’ in heavy rain to maintain visual with the ground. The controller kept in contact with me and gave me constant vectors to avoid radio and TV towers. Following the controller’s instructions, I arrived right at the threshold of the runway at Ft Myers. By that time the rain had turned to hail and there was lightning flashing. I have to say that I was thought constantly that a crash was a realistic conclusion to my crisis! In the event, it was an uneventful landing and I taxied to the apron and waited for the hail and lightning to abate before securing the airplane. I thanked the controller for my life and his skill to which his response was simply “that’s what we’re here for” That was the end of my flying, fortunately only for that day and I stayed overnight in Ft Myers before setting off the next day to return the airplane and report to the airport for my flight home.

Needless to say that I underwent substantial instrument training after that misadventure and now avoid flying at all when thunderstorms are predicted. I don’t think I will ever get over the trauma of the hail and lightning! I do however have the greatest respect for the people at ATC to whom I undoubtedly owe my life! My advice to anybody is never ever press on into marginal VFR conditions unless properly instrument trained and current. Furthermore don’t even think about going close to thunderstorms especially the embedded variety! It very nearly cost me my life!

In answer to the original post, I didn’t even consider the consequences or penalties of low flying or using 121.5 – my only consideration was my life and how to extend it! In the event, I did not suffer even a verbal slapping for the low flying or stupidity elements of my airmanship.

[mad_jock]

I would like to take issue with the description which Jack-oh provided about the INV event.

The plane was hired under false pretences by someone claiming to have a PPL.

The pilot had unfortunetly due to medical reasons lost his flying rights (he now holds a NPPL)

Instead of a check ride for the aircraft hire the pilot agreed to go along as a safety pilot and local guide. He was current and regularly went flying with an instructor safety pilot.

The person who had hired the aircraft asked him if he would fly it so the person could take photos. And the pilot was more than happy to fly.

After going and taking photos the pilot asked the person who hired it, to fly because he was now knackard. They then announced that they couldn't fly.

The pilot had in the past held a IMC rating.

Unfortunatly the wx came in and they had to go IMC to get back to inverness. The pilot was put in the position which he wouldn't have elected to be in if he knew the deception which had been used.

The pilot was taken to court and also the school which hired the plane. The person who hired the plane reported them for public transport after he was refused a refund when his photos didn't come out.

And the lesson learnt is never trust anyone who wants to take photos and you don't know. Bird spotters are always chancing there luck as well.

MJ

[jack-oh]

Mad-Jock,
I stand corrected.

[mad_jock]

Nae bother



MJ

As I presume you are off Lossie ilk jack fancy having a pint some time m8, I speak to you every day. And if you want to go for play in a light aircraft it will be my treat.

[Flock1]

Thanks for all the replies.

I hope that I never find myself in a perilous position, but if I do, then I now know not to delay confessing to ATC.

Thanks once again

Flock1

[bigmanatc]

Flock

One last tip.....if you do happen to lose it and get vertigo and not tell up from down......close the throttle...drop all the flaps and the gear....take your hands off the stick......she WILL right herself.....watch the A/H and when she`s level again.....fly her.

Stay outta them nimbo`s.......

[Timothy]

Ah...if we are going to get into the world of how to control the aeroplane, as opposed to how to shout at ATC, my best advice for anyone who is not rated who accidentally enters IMC is to engage the a/p if one is fitted.

If you fly an aircraft with a/p or wing-leveller (and many SEPs have them, they just might not have been pointed out to you) you should be shown how to use it and then practice a few times in VMC.

It could save your life, both because it will keep you upright and never overstress the airframe, and because it will release a substantial proportion of your brain for thinking.

W

[timzsta]

We can all get caught out by the weather - even the forecaster.

I did the mandatory 5 hours instument time when I did my JAR PPL two years ago. Trouble is I havent done any since, other then tertiary use of them during my Night Rating recently. Maybe I really should go up with an Instructor for an hour and do some instruments refresher. Te aim though is not to get caught out by bad weather, but we live in the real world...

Remember this, when the sh^&e hits the fan - aviate, navigate, communicate. Follow that and you have a pretty good chance of surviving to tell the tale I believe.

And remember in the interests of flight saftey the PIC may deviate from the Rules of the Air. So if you have no IMC/IR rating and you are (for whatever reason that may or may not have been under your control) forced into IMC conditions then you are forced into IMC conditions. You depart from the rules for your own safety, declare a PAN or MAYDAY and then sort the problem out.

[FlyingForFun]

If you fly an aircraft with a/p or wing-leveller (and many SEPs have them, they just might not have been pointed out to you)

It certainly should have been pointed out to you. At the very least, you should be checking that it is switched off prior to take-off, and checking that it can be switched off as part of your pre-flight!

I have to say that this is an excellent thread. There's nothing new in here, but it's the kind of information that we all need to be reminded about every now and then. Personally, I've never managed to actually get myself into a cloud accidentally, but I have found myself in worse vis than I'd have liked, or becoming squeezed into a gap between the clouds and the ground, and although these situations are not as serious as Flock1's example scenario, ATC have always been unbelievably helpful.

FFF
--------------

[GroundBound]

As someone said, ATCOs may dine out on stories for years. Here’s one from 30 years ago (not that I’ve dined out on it of course ). Despite its age, it could have happened yesterday, and is still useful to understand what ATC can do to help.

It was a Friday afternoon in winter, the weather was fairly grim, lowish cloud, scattered rain and limited visibility. Her Majesty’s flying club had packed up and retired to the bar and we were all waiting for the bell to go home.

The Tower controller called down the intercom to ask if we knew anything about the light aircraft “small, high wing” which had just crossed the threshold, low level – he had, after all, expected to have been notified about it. At the same time, the zone controller on the adjacent console was replying on the telephone to a nearby unit “no, we don’t know of anyone like that here”. Then there was a brief trace on the primary radar (yes, that loooong ago) about a mile out on the approach.

A quick chat with the adjacent unit, to ask what the trouble was. “There’s someone calling on our frequency, but he’s very faint. The DF is very variable but it suggests he is down your way, and he’s probably very low. It’s a Cessna 150, he’s lost and he’s low on fuel”. Well, quite some coincidence! There’s another brief paint, so I select the alternate radars which give different low level coverage. Yeah, maybe there’s someone there, but it’s pretty intermittent. It’s about 10 minutes to night now, so things aren’t going well for this guy. “Switch him to our frequency”, I ask, “and we’ll try to get a DF on him”. Well, for some reason we can’t get him on our frequency – probably the guy’s terrified and doesn’t want to loose the only source of help he thinks he has.

There’s a small GA airfield about 5 miles north of this faint radar paint, so I call the unit, ask them to stay open (the Tower controller was just putting on his coat to go home) and put on the runway lights. Get the QFE and pass it the adjacent unit for relay to the lost soul. Then I pass vectors via the adjacent unit who relay these to the guy on their frequency.

The trace is still faint and interrupted, I’m not even sure it is him, but I see it turning (and fading) towards the airfield. The adjacent unit tells me he has an airfield in sight, and the GA Tower calls to say they can hear a light aircraft overhead. It’s almost dark now, but there’s nothing more we can do - at least he has a runway to land on.

The next day, we hear the rest of the story. Overhead the airfield, his tanks ran dry and the fan stopped. He managed to get it down, but overran the runway into the hedge, but walked away with no major problems. The aircraft was a bit bent.

Who was the guy? Well, he was a trainee controller doing his PPL training course qualifying cross country. He turned right instead of left at some point and became completely lost. We never found out whether he tried 121.5 (he might have been too low, since he was observed only a few hundred feet above the ground).

So what do we learn from this? Don’t wait – call! ATC can, and will help. They will do everything in their power to make sure you can get down in one piece – they are interested in your safety, not legalities.

In many aircraft accidents, there are a number of events which, together, contribute to the accident. In this case, there were many events which occurred together to save the day – the call from the Tower, the overheard call of the adjacent unit, the brief radar paint at exactly the right moment, the GA Tower controller answering the phone even though he was leaving. If any one of these events had not occurred, the guy would have lost his engine overhead unknown territory, in the dark. It’s unlikely he would have made it.

BTW, the controller at the adjacent unit got a bo*****ing for his role in the incident. I never understood why.

Don't hestitate, ever - call!

[av8boy]

Flock,

I'd echo what's been said thus far, but add just a minor point. Among other things, you said,

...He did check the weather beforehand, but because he got himself a little lost, he has drifted into the BAD weather.

Please understand that when you call me I don't care if you bounded into the air after careful preperation or did so without a glance skyward. If you didn't plan properly, that's for you to sort out with the license people later on. When you call us (any of us) with a problem, we all play the hand we've been dealt. Don't tell me that you checked the wx before you left or that you're "a little lost." Stick to stuff that's important NOW. Tell me you've gotten yourself into conditions which are beyond your ability and that you're lost. Tell me what you know and what you're able to do. You and me, we're going to be best friends for the next few minuites and we need to be on the same page and FOCUSED.

Want to call me later and tell me how you checked the wx before you left and you have no idea how it could have gone to hell so fast etc? Fine. Do it. I'd love to hear from you. But for now, put it out of your mind and aviate. Let's work this out and get you down.

Now, ident and verify your altitude and heading...

Dave

[Flock1]

Thanks again everyone. It's extremely reassuring to know that ATC's will do their utmost to get down a lost pilot.

But reading all of this has led me to another question, and one that most people probably already know....

If the lost pilot confessed to the ATC at a Class D airport, what happens to all of those other pilots who were on frequency? Do they get to go onto a spare frequency, because I wouldn't have thought it wise to instruct the lost pilot to start fiddling with his radio, when he will be having enough trouble just maintainig straight & level?

Sorry if this question seems trivial. I just want to know.

Flock1

[av8boy]

In my experience, everybody turns their professional manner up a notch and uses great economy in radio transmissions. Remember that everybody on the frequency is clear on the concept here, and most are probably turning the words, "there but for the grace of God go I" over in the back of their minds. It's also kind of neat that all of the other pilots on frequency contribute to the assist when they do this. Team effort. What's more, I've never had to say to other aircraft on the freq "keep it short, I'm working an aircraft in distress here." It just happens. Coolest damned thing. Great example of situational awareness provided by all involved...

Although you're correct in your assumption that we want to keep you from having to do things like change frequencies at a time like this, most shops don't have the luxury of moving everybody else to another frequency. So we all (drivers and controllers) just deal with it. If it goes south, it seldom has to do with frequency congestion or controller workload generated by non-emergency aircraft.

Dave

PS Stop saying "confessed." You're availing yourself of a service here. You're in a spot and we're simply a tool that may be able to help. If you end up having a confessor because of this situation, it'll be a guy sitting across a table from you discussing the facts and their impact on your future in aviation some days or weeks later. It won't be the guy who says "RADAR contact."

[Scott Voigt]

Flock one;

Can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US chances are slim that there is an extra freq to use...

regards

Scott

[mad_jock]

I think you will find flock that most ATCO's will be just as traumatised after the event as the pilot was.

And god forbid the end result was not good, I would imagine that they would undergo alot of self searching about their efforts dealing with the situation.

Its all a big team game up their ATC arn't your enemys or the police of the skys. They are there so everyone gets to where they want to go with the minimal of fuss as safely as possible.

I suggest you go for some beers with some and or visit a unit. They can mostly drink like fish and luv informing pilots whats involved at the other end of the mic.

MJ

[eastern wiseguy]

Do they get to go onto a spare frequency

Flock in my bit of class D my watch would tend to move everyone else onto a spare frequency and give you and the controller the luxury of a quiet frequency thus allowing thinking time.You may be interested to know that we use this type of scenario in our TRUCE (training for unusual occurence and events) training which we have to complete on a yearly basis. I agree with the people who was written here.DO NOT be frightened about announcing your problems...the quicker we know the sooner we can get you back on the ground.And as Mad Jock says ...VISIT an ATC unit ..and we can all drink like fish...

[Timothy]

On the subject of spare frequencies, I have long wondered what is the availability of 121.5 to units outside the main centres?

I know that you monitor it in a lot of places, but do you have the right to transmit? Do you have the right to be the Controlling Authority? Can you recruit the help of other nearby centres on 121.5?

etc

W

[av8boy]

Speaking as TRACON/Tower puke in the US, 121.5 is just another tool. I can (and do) use it whenever it makes sense to do so (not to mention... "got a minute for a radio check on 21.5?")

Dave

[West Coast]

I hate being the non flying pilot on early AM flights, "can you give PRC radio a call on 122.5, then xxxx, then xxxx......"