How would you deal with this scenario?
 

Hello all,

I am a new(ish) PPL (A) and I have yet to do either an IMC or an IR rating.

So here is the scenario, and it is one that I sincerely hope I never ever experience myself....

...an inexperienced, but fully-qualified PPL pilot (like me) sets off from his (or her) little airfield, and somehow finds himself in IMC conditions. He did check the weather beforehand, but because he got himself a little lost, he has drifted into the BAD weather. He can't see the ground, he's not entirely sure of where he is, and after doing a 180 orbit, he is still in conditions that are potentially deadly. his nerves are now fraught. But he doesn't tell anyone yet.

As luck would happen though, he happens to be in contact with an ATC controller from a Class D airport (say Leeds or Newcastle etc), and he is on the edge of their zone. His transponder is showing up on their radar.

The pilot is panicking now, and knows that he is in major trouble, but is somehow remembering his PPL training about instrument flight, and is just about managing to keep at straight at level.

Should he declare an emergency? Should he try to leave the airport zone? Anyway, let's assume that the weather is really BAD, and he cannot see anything at all outside. Let's also assume that the cloud base is 200ft agl up to 15000ft, and it is widespread. He is flying at 2000ft, and there might be some high ground nearby. He cannot be expected to fly out of the mess, and in addition, the vis below the cloud base is about 1km. Wind though, is not a factor (which is probably explains the fog.) His fuel is okay, say a couple of hours, but his temprement is not. When he calls you, you know he is on the verge of losing it soon. He is a statistic waiting to happen.

...So how would you help him out. How would you handle this dreadful situatioin? Would the big jets be told to orbit, and would you try to talk him down via an ILS approah (which he may have done on his flight simulator at home). Would you just keep him going 'round in circles, until the weather hopefully lifted?

And to add a further question. Let's say he does manage to get his single-prop aircraft down in one piece, what punishments will befall him? And how much would he be charged?

Thanks in advance. I look forward to hearing your replies.

Flock

If you have the ATC units frequency call them up straight away, if not immediately call up 121.5.
The longer you dither over this the less time will be available to sort out the problem.
ATC and D&D have multiple tricks up their sleeves to help you out.
It may be a simple talk down , ie you may not have a IR rating but you are more than likely able to fly a heading. You may be positioned overhead the airfield or to a position which we know as safe and cloud free for a cloud break, a local aircraft may also be sent to fly alongside you to help you out.
There are so many solutions to this scenario, but you must call up straight away, we are there to help. It is when things go wrong that we earn our pennies.

This isn't a personal attack, but I hope that this wouldn't enter ANYBODY's mind if they were in a situation the felt was starting to get beyond their control. And sooner rather than later is definately the way forward. Pride can be a dangerous thing, and who's going to look dumber, a pilot calling 121.5 and letting it be known they aren't comfortable, or the guy who keeps it to him/herself and suddenly finds the big fan go very quiet. And I wouldn't think anybody would run out on to you on landing and bite your head off.

If as in you example, you were painting on radar, as Flower pointed out, there are multiple tricks that can be used. Even if you weren't painting but were in radio contact, many towers about the place have DF, which using your transmissions will indicate your direction from the airfield. D&D can also triangulate your position with their fancy kit.

I have seen this exact scenario on two occasions, albeit not in class D airspace. The first was in Cornwall where the pilot got lost and confused as he entered fog. He decided to climb for terrain avoidance and call Culdrose. He was running out of fuel and had his wife and newborn baby were onboard (Yes this is true). To cut a long story short he was given vectors and descent instructions and carried out a PAR for the first time in weather conditions that would have put anyone to the test. On finals, he took out a couple of the approach lights but landed safely with only enough fuel to taxi off the runway. Needless to say, his wife wasn't that impressed and caught the train home. The second time was near Inverness where a pilot took up a group of passengers on a look around the local area, again he got caught out and went IMC without any form of instrument rating. In this instance, he tried to remain VMC below and started to get very close to the lumps and bumps. Finally, he climbed and between Lossiemouth and Inverness ATC, he was given instructions to descend over the sea until VMC, at which point he made a dash for the airport and landed. His passengers were up in arms, and the incident was reported to the police. He was eventually tried and found guilty of some offence, other than being stupid, that involved private hire and qualifications, as far as I can remember. If you find yourself in such a position, declare a PAN (yes they may take the mick out of you in the bar but at least you will be there to hear them) you will be treated with priority. If you are in the same situation as the bloke in Cornwall, upgrade the emergency to a MAYDAY. If your already speaking to ATC use that frequency if your not call on guard. I don’t know a single air traffic controller that wouldn’t do his utmost to help you out. Equally, I don’t know one that wouldn’t dine out on the story of ATC heroism for years to come.

Yes, don't delay, call someone and state what the problem is, local freq if you know it, 121.5 if you don't. Don't keep anything back. And don't start fretting about consequences, we just need to have you on the ground safe and sound. Then we can all take a sigh of relief.

However, going back to the beginning, we'd rather not have you get yourself in this situation in the first place!! ;) In your scenario, given the weather, as soon as your were 'uncertain of position' is the time to shout for help. We don't bite. :p


VA

Does this not beg certain questions about the PPL?

Lets be honest this little island in the North Atlantic does not have the worlds best flying weather.

I have been flying in CAVOK and been into afternoon autumn sun. You can see nothing.

Should the PPL not be extended to include some instrument get you home flying. Ie the IMC? I know there is some instrument flying on the JAA PPL but very little and a lot of PPL holders fly few hours and in good weather.

Ok I know I will get so much chaf sent up that I will crash and burn on this point but would be interested to know what ATC officers and other pilots think.

(I think I will don my parachute now):}

FLOCK,

As everyone has stated, PLEASE ask ATC for assistance as soon as you realize that you are in trouble, the longer you wait the worse your situation may become. My least worry would be, am I going to get in trouble for this.

Basically here is what we will do, the steps will depend slightly on how panicked or calm you are:

1. Give you a discrete transponder code and radar identify you, and determine your position, and altitiude. We will tell you the minimum safe altitude for obstruction clearance in your area.

2. Stress that you TRUST your instruments, and keep the plane straight and level. RELAX, trust us, and believe your instruments!

3. Try to Calm you down, and ask about your pilot qualifications, experience, and FUEL Situation.

4. Provide vectors to the closest airport, or area that is reporting VFR conditions. As someone mentioned this may mean being vectored over water where you can descend back down into VFR conditions. Any turns (vectors) that you are given, we will tell you to make slow gradual turns (half rate) to help prevent you from getting vertigo and ending up in a spin or worse. We normally won't ask you to climb/descend and turn at the same time unless it is absolutely necessary.

5. Have you Call us once you are safely on the ground so that we can relax, too.

Seriously, we are here to help you, not to violate you. Our goal is to help you get safely back into VFR condtions and on the ground.

Mike R
NATCA FWA

Since the JAA licence came in there have been attempts decrease the problems with PPL's getting lost with the extra Nav Aids they now do. from memory PPL's are now taught some VOR's,ADF's and DME's and also taught how to do a 180 turn on instuments so after flying into bad weather than can fly back out.

Unfortunately i think the problem lies with the individuals themselves. whether it be pride or a lack of appreciation that this hobby/sport can kill!

Having run several flying clubs it has always amazed me the chances low houred, inexperienced and infrequent fliers (and some that should know better) will take to the point of having to be stopped.

eg. i even had to stop one flyer, flying to a CAA safety day, when the cloud base was 800ft (and he didnt have an IMC).

By law pilots have to take reasonable steps to get the weather (by fax,phone etc) and if in any doubt dont go.

it is far better being down here wishing you were up there than the other way round!!

this post reminds me of my 3 leg solo cross country . The weather was VFR with 7 miles in haze. After reaching my cruise altitude, I discovered my forward vis was u/s, but down was OK.
Unknown to me at this time, my rudder trim was out [C152] by 10% and therefore I was tracking of course. realizing I was lost, I contacted London, ON. ATC who provided me with a DF steer.
This was 22 years ago. Somethings you never forget.

Many [many] moons ago, I was talking to a PPL who was saying that the wx was sooo bad, he was at 50' "trying to read railway station names. When I asked him just why he hadn't called 121.5, he looked at me in astonishment and said......
"But 121.5 is the emergency frequency" :rolleyes:
watpiktch

i am currently training for my PPL (waiting to get my skills test bokked at the moment) so have just completed the training. i did find the lack of instrument flying a bit of a concern, not much more than a couple of 180 turns and some VOR tracking and thats about it. I did wind up doing some more but thats just how me and my instructer were(60' AOB turns under the hood aint easy!) but all in i would not say that enough is taught to keep you safe in bad weather

"Today wasn't the day to give up sniffing glue........."

There does seem to be a general reluctance, from the newest tyro SPL to the wizened old ATPL to use the M and P words.

You hear people saying that they "wish to declare an emergency" or "We require a priority landing" or "we are temporarily uncertain of our position" or "we have a problem up here" or "we are a little low on fuel."

"Mayday" and "Pan Pan" are there to communicate rapidly with ATC that you require their urgent and full attention and that your circumstances place you in greater need of a service than others on frequency or in the area.

If you judge that those circumstances apply you should use the appropriate word, and not faff about trying to sound like a cool Apollo 13 jock or whatever.

As a frinstance, I was flying my Aztec at night in broken IMC when a series of things went wrong with the electrics, one after the other - various circuit breakers popped, but reset OK, one NAV radio failed. None of these things really compromised the flight per se, but I was thinking "there's something awry here, and I really don't want to be up here, in controlled airspace, at night, in IMC with a total electrical failure" So I declared a PAN PAN, was instantly instructed to go speechless, to preserve battery, and was swiftly handed from one guy to the next to a landing at Biggin, all beautifully co-ordinated such that I never had to say a word (though I was given the opportunity to change squawk to indicate lack of willingness to comply with an instruction.)

It was like well-oiled clockwork...extraordinarily professionally handled and, like Flower says, why these guys are so well trained, highly paid and underworked :E

So use the magic words and get fantastically well looked after.

W

like Flower says, why these guys are so well trained, highly paid and underworked

Will one of you tell this to my employer!!!!!!!!!

Only kidding! We're not paid to sit here looking at our kit doing absolutely b$gger all! As soon as you get into a situation that you'd rather not be in, ask for assistance!

Would you rather feel a bit emabarrased about getting into IMC and surviving or stacking into a hillside somewhere?

Make use of the facilities available to you!

It makes us feel like we're doing something worthwhile!:ok:

Whatever punishments there may be, they will not be of a capital nature ;)

this is something that has been drummed into me since day one of my training my instructor has ALWAYS told me the instant you get into IMC and cant see a way out climb to safety altitude and make the call to explain the situation!
there is nothing to be embarresed about and i do know what it is like because i have ended up IMC once (thankfully with the instructor) it's not nice and it is amazing how quickly you get disorianted but as i have always been taught if i do end up there again on my own (which i hope i wont because i really did not enjoy the experiance) there is only two things to do

1, climb
2, call

and it was mentioned about punishment
all in i would rather lose my licence and look stupid than become a CFIT statistic!

What I was taught:

Climb
Confess
Comply

(and when you get home, sign up for the IMC rating...!)

Tim

If you were really off track and this happened to you in Australia:
- You would be given priority regardless of whether you had declared an emegency, however the words PAN or MAYDAY do tend to grab everyone's attention;
- after a quick chat you would be processed by the safest approach and if we could we would get your club or school CFI on the phone;
- you would be subject to a alert or distress phase and the Australian SAR service would be alerted:
- yes, the big jet pilots would get to hold while we sorted your problem out, however they have probably been there and done that and normally seem very tolerant;
- my employer charges for our sevices so you would cop a charge from us and from the airport owner;
- we are obliged by legislation to submit an incident report;
- this goes electronically to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority;
- the former may investigate and make recommendations, the latter may also investigate and has the option to take action under the Civil Aviation Regulations;
- you have the option to buy copious amounts of alcohol for the controllers;
- in other words, assuming you survive, this could be a nightmare so don't press on, stay in VMC!

Flock 1: the very fact that you have posted this seems to indicate a very basic awareness of the "worst case scenario" and that's good. As many of the previous posts indicate, ATC take matters like this very seriously indeed; many of us have experience of dealing with such events and we are there to help you out as our absolute No. 1 priority when things turn nasty. We're not interested in punishment at such times and nor should you be. That's not to excuse any breach of legislation or act of negligence, of course, for which you may have some explaining to do later!

A few pointers may help you:

Plan your flight properly. Look at the terrain, look at the weather, look at the airspace environment, look for possible "escape" routes and suitable diversion aerodromes if things turn bad. Much as it may take an element of fun out of flying, it's just not a good idea to leap into an aeroplane without adequate preparation. And don't rely on GPS as your sole nav. aid! Carry a good, current topo. map.

Flying into the ground is usually fatal. You need to see where you are going. If you encounter IMC on your track and you are not suitably equipped/qualified to deal with it, never take the risk that you'll soon fly out of it. Stay VMC. Climbing to the MSA or higher may be okay but NOT if it puts you in sustained IMC and you can't cope. Best to turn back into VMC conditions.

Never, ever be afraid to call ATC and ask for help. Use "Pan" or "Mayday" (depending on the severity of your predicament) as the prefix and be aware that a transponder set to 7600 (radio fail) or 7700 (emergency) will trigger all sorts of alarms on radars and will instantly attract ATC's attention, not just at one unit but at several, including D&D. As Flower says, the nearest ATC unit or the one to which you are talking may be able to help but if they can't, they'll very soon find someone who can and that may be D&D who really will pull out all the stops to help you and get you back to earth safely. Come and talk to ATC at your nearest radar-equipped aerodrome and see the facilities they have to help you. Talk to the "coal-face" ATCOs and I'm sure you'll be reassured. Many of us have flying experience too, which helps. Enjoy safe flying.

if in doubt - call atc
like others have said - best to call up as soon as poss - frankly id rather earn my cash helping you out than putting out a call to search and rescue saying i think i just lost one

and yeah - we may end up holding the " big boys" to get you in - but emergency traffic takes priority over everything else

dunno about the costs etc - but - i would hope that wouldnt be a consideration as to whether you would declare an emergency or not
folk do make mistakes - and as we all know the weather can suddenly get a bit crap unexpectedly, - had a snow warning come out once about an hour after it had started snowing!!!!


enjoy your flying!!!

yaffs