NATS Pay/WP
Join Date: Jun 2003
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You are all missing the point. What I am saying is that nobody begrudges ATCOs earning more than other grades - not even me. All I would like to see, if only for the sake of seeing everybody feeling content with their pay rise for once, is implementation of an equal, across-the-board percentage pay rise. 3% (or whatever it is) for ATCOs, 3% for ATSAs, 3% for everybody. ATCOs will still be getting more take-home than all of us. It would also indicate to Management that we actually have some sort of harmonisation and, dare I say it, unity, between the different grades and their members.
Gonzo - I am not sure where you're going with your last post, but if I wanted to call you a liar then this is how it would look - you are a liar. But I'm not, so take it anyway you want. Also, thanks for the kind offer, but I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time off than visiting other Units. Besides, I might want to work with you!!
PERMANENTLY!!
Gonzo - I am not sure where you're going with your last post, but if I wanted to call you a liar then this is how it would look - you are a liar. But I'm not, so take it anyway you want. Also, thanks for the kind offer, but I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time off than visiting other Units. Besides, I might want to work with you!!
PERMANENTLY!!
Join Date: Dec 1999
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You'll have to help me here.....
I say that I don't do AAVAs
You say "I expect you do AAVAs"
Hmmmmm.......whatever.
Oh dear! So, how does your call for increasing unity across all grades and units follow with a reluctance to undertake liason visits?????????????????????? You suprise me, Connex! Someone who likes to show he has a 'finger on the pulse'.....
And one taste of my mars bar shortbread I bake for our afternoon shifts, and you wouldn't be going back!!!
I say that I don't do AAVAs
You say "I expect you do AAVAs"
Hmmmmm.......whatever.
but I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time off than visiting other Units
So, how does your call for increasing unity across all grades and units follow with a reluctance to undertake liason visits?????????????????????? You suprise me, Connex! Someone who likes to show he has a 'finger on the pulse'.....And one taste of my mars bar shortbread I bake for our afternoon shifts, and you wouldn't be going back!!!
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Connex,
Just my usual derogatory "sh*te"......directed at you. But, unlike you, I'm not hiding behind a "alias" on an anonymous forum.
(I usually acknowledge when I being petty, like now!)
Just my usual derogatory "sh*te"......directed at you. But, unlike you, I'm not hiding behind a "alias" on an anonymous forum.
(I usually acknowledge when I being petty, like now!)
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Correct me if I'm wrong (duck from incoming...) but
As I understand it, the union have said that if the pay deal is not in place by beginning of 2004 (never has been in place less than six months after supposed introduction date in my personal experience but I suppose if miracles are going to happen it's the right season) then the AAVA agreement will lapse and not be renewed on 1st Jan. This will leave about 3 of us in TC left manning the radars while everyone else trots off to Bournemouth to be 'Easted', not an awful lot at NERC, and who knows how many elsewhere.
As the pay would have to be voted on by national postal ballot, let's say 25 days presuming everyone is extremely organised and reindeers aplenty are available to do extra deliveries for the good old post office, that leaves about 7 days for someone to come up with an acceptable offer and get the ball rolling, all presuming everyone and everything works over Christmas bank holidays.
Call me sceptical, but I don't really see it all happening...
As I understand it, the union have said that if the pay deal is not in place by beginning of 2004 (never has been in place less than six months after supposed introduction date in my personal experience but I suppose if miracles are going to happen it's the right season) then the AAVA agreement will lapse and not be renewed on 1st Jan. This will leave about 3 of us in TC left manning the radars while everyone else trots off to Bournemouth to be 'Easted', not an awful lot at NERC, and who knows how many elsewhere.
As the pay would have to be voted on by national postal ballot, let's say 25 days presuming everyone is extremely organised and reindeers aplenty are available to do extra deliveries for the good old post office, that leaves about 7 days for someone to come up with an acceptable offer and get the ball rolling, all presuming everyone and everything works over Christmas bank holidays.
Call me sceptical, but I don't really see it all happening...
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Do NATS need the agreement to offer overtime under the terms of the Staff Handbook? How many ATCOs would accept overtime on this basis? NATS may be banking on the fact that a significant number of ATCOs now feel they need the extra money every month.
Thread Starter
You may be right Arkady, but given the present attitude of "management" and the way they always take, take, take - and given the fact that those involved in TC are (hopefully) enlightened enough to stick by the present Union stance, I can't see many in TC offering to do overtime (instead of AAVA) that is not sanctioned by the Union.
Especially where TC East is concerned.
And NLN is quite right - time is fast running out.........
Especially where TC East is concerned.
And NLN is quite right - time is fast running out.........
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Connex
Please don't think I'm on your side on this issue, I'm quite the opposite. It is people like you - ATCOs and ATSAs - that feel the need to whip up feelings that may be not even be there until pay talks come around.
As I see it you seem to hate ATCOs and everything they stand for but are willing to surf any pay-related wave that comes along. I don't know about money grabbing, whingeing ATCOs it seems you are not that far behind (if not a little ahead).
Incidentally, how much harder are you working than you were 10 years ago?
Now take a look at any ATCO alongside, how much harder is s/he working?
Now ask yourself if you are worth the same size pay rise?
Please don't think I'm on your side on this issue, I'm quite the opposite. It is people like you - ATCOs and ATSAs - that feel the need to whip up feelings that may be not even be there until pay talks come around.
As I see it you seem to hate ATCOs and everything they stand for but are willing to surf any pay-related wave that comes along. I don't know about money grabbing, whingeing ATCOs it seems you are not that far behind (if not a little ahead).
Incidentally, how much harder are you working than you were 10 years ago?
Now take a look at any ATCO alongside, how much harder is s/he working?
Now ask yourself if you are worth the same size pay rise?
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Hello, reality calling.....
I can't speak for other NATS units, but at mine we have some managers who are actually trying to help sort out some of the c**p within our company. We have learned from them that the company can only afford to give us XXX pounds total as a wage rise this year, without borrowing more from the banks. If we all throw our toys and demand more than XXX, then the company will either have to borrow more [not a good idea] or lose some staff to pay for it - which would mean we would all have to work even harder than we are at present. Hands up all those who want to work harder.
Isn't it time that we all. ATCOs ATSAs Engineers Admin, cleaners whatever, started to fight to keep the whole sodding edifice afloat, rather than comparing our poor sorry conditions to others abroad. We work here 'cos we want to work here, no-one is forcing us. We do however have the power to weaken the company to the extent that it goes t**ts up, and PDQ. ATCOs would be okay, as they would be re-employed by whoever picked up the bits [but you can bet that it wouldn't be under nearly such cosy conditions as NATS offer]. Everyone else would be left to rot.
We can keep working for NATS, and await a brighter future, or kick it to death while it is suffering the after effects of some crap circumstances, and some p**s awful management decisions from the recent past. Trying to declare war on management is about as stupid a suggestion as anyone could make at this juncture, but some will try. The alternative is actually working with everyone around you to try and assure yourselves that you have a future. ATCOs getting shirty with ATSAs just gets you a worse atmosphere in the Ops room. ATSAs moaning about the 'high-priced-help' will just make them more convinced that they would be better off without any assistance at all. The truth is we all need each other. The difference is how much, at different times.
I've worked for other companys. You have to trust me that this one isn't all that bad. Some outsiders [my wife for one] can't believe what cosy conditions we get. £20k for being a student? You're having a laugh.....
Okay. I won't wriggle. Fire at will......
DWB
I can't speak for other NATS units, but at mine we have some managers who are actually trying to help sort out some of the c**p within our company. We have learned from them that the company can only afford to give us XXX pounds total as a wage rise this year, without borrowing more from the banks. If we all throw our toys and demand more than XXX, then the company will either have to borrow more [not a good idea] or lose some staff to pay for it - which would mean we would all have to work even harder than we are at present. Hands up all those who want to work harder.
Isn't it time that we all. ATCOs ATSAs Engineers Admin, cleaners whatever, started to fight to keep the whole sodding edifice afloat, rather than comparing our poor sorry conditions to others abroad. We work here 'cos we want to work here, no-one is forcing us. We do however have the power to weaken the company to the extent that it goes t**ts up, and PDQ. ATCOs would be okay, as they would be re-employed by whoever picked up the bits [but you can bet that it wouldn't be under nearly such cosy conditions as NATS offer]. Everyone else would be left to rot.
We can keep working for NATS, and await a brighter future, or kick it to death while it is suffering the after effects of some crap circumstances, and some p**s awful management decisions from the recent past. Trying to declare war on management is about as stupid a suggestion as anyone could make at this juncture, but some will try. The alternative is actually working with everyone around you to try and assure yourselves that you have a future. ATCOs getting shirty with ATSAs just gets you a worse atmosphere in the Ops room. ATSAs moaning about the 'high-priced-help' will just make them more convinced that they would be better off without any assistance at all. The truth is we all need each other. The difference is how much, at different times.
I've worked for other companys. You have to trust me that this one isn't all that bad. Some outsiders [my wife for one] can't believe what cosy conditions we get. £20k for being a student? You're having a laugh.....
Okay. I won't wriggle. Fire at will......
DWB
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Greebson –
I am not anti-ATCO, I am pro-fairness across the board - and this refers to anyone, anything and everything within NATS. I am not inciting anti-ATCO feeling as you suggest. Judging by conversations amongst my own colleagues, I have no need to help with this!! (it’s a pity that more ATSAs do not join in the pay debate, whatever their opinion) I am, however, trying to highlight internal differences of opinion which cause friction between grades. There is nothing more certain to cause trouble than the issue of money. The two Unions and their members do not work together, as the concept of Union membership desires. Just for once, it would be great for us all if we could all work together towards the goal (the pay rise) and not follow the usual ‘non-cooperation’ line which has prevailed in the past. Just out of interest, what’s your view on having just one Union for all NATS ATC staff? (Answer on the back of a stamp using a whitewash brush, no doubt.)
Gonzo –
Ahh, I have heard about you and your legendary culinary expertise. As you are obviously on such good terms with them, have you asked any of your own ATSA colleagues what they think about the pay issue? I’ll check with a couple of LL friends and see! Also, I thought that liason visits were to see how other Units operated, and not to be used as “rally-to-the-cause” meetings. The fact that I personally would like to see us all working together as a team, and not the “sham-team” of reality, is my choice. Each of us should have enough savvy to decide where we stand on this and every issue, and follow that decision accordingly. I am not calling for “increasing unity” from anyone. Whatever I post on this forum is my own opinion only – I do not speak for anybody else.
Nogbad the Bad –
I am waiting to see if anybody posts any information about the ATSA position in the negotiations. This thread is about NATS Pay/WP, not ATCO pay/WP. What Prospect and its members do has implications for the rest of us. Therefore the topic under discussion is relevant to the ATSA position. If you don’t like that, then I suggest you apply the same ‘remedy’ I suggested to Jerricho in my last post.
and !!
Dances with Boffins -
just read your post - couldn't agree more. Now where do we start?
I am not anti-ATCO, I am pro-fairness across the board - and this refers to anyone, anything and everything within NATS. I am not inciting anti-ATCO feeling as you suggest. Judging by conversations amongst my own colleagues, I have no need to help with this!! (it’s a pity that more ATSAs do not join in the pay debate, whatever their opinion) I am, however, trying to highlight internal differences of opinion which cause friction between grades. There is nothing more certain to cause trouble than the issue of money. The two Unions and their members do not work together, as the concept of Union membership desires. Just for once, it would be great for us all if we could all work together towards the goal (the pay rise) and not follow the usual ‘non-cooperation’ line which has prevailed in the past. Just out of interest, what’s your view on having just one Union for all NATS ATC staff? (Answer on the back of a stamp using a whitewash brush, no doubt.)
Gonzo –
Ahh, I have heard about you and your legendary culinary expertise. As you are obviously on such good terms with them, have you asked any of your own ATSA colleagues what they think about the pay issue? I’ll check with a couple of LL friends and see! Also, I thought that liason visits were to see how other Units operated, and not to be used as “rally-to-the-cause” meetings. The fact that I personally would like to see us all working together as a team, and not the “sham-team” of reality, is my choice. Each of us should have enough savvy to decide where we stand on this and every issue, and follow that decision accordingly. I am not calling for “increasing unity” from anyone. Whatever I post on this forum is my own opinion only – I do not speak for anybody else.
Nogbad the Bad –
I am waiting to see if anybody posts any information about the ATSA position in the negotiations. This thread is about NATS Pay/WP, not ATCO pay/WP. What Prospect and its members do has implications for the rest of us. Therefore the topic under discussion is relevant to the ATSA position. If you don’t like that, then I suggest you apply the same ‘remedy’ I suggested to Jerricho in my last post.
and !!Dances with Boffins -
just read your post - couldn't agree more. Now where do we start?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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I don't think I've ever asked anyone, ATSA or ATCO; "So, what do you think about the big pay issue?" It's come up in discussion amongst us (And to me, 'us' means ATSAs (2s and 4s) and ATCOs).
Ok, so now I'm worried how far tales of my shortbread and brownies have travelled!!!!
Ok, so now I'm worried how far tales of my shortbread and brownies have travelled!!!!
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dances with boffins...... we said privatisation did not make sense financially or otherwise. The industry said so. The Government said we needed to be privatised and our management said ok.
So now the Government and our management say there is no money...... errrrr so we just say OK you were right ????
We have said all along the staff did not vote for privatisation so we won't pay for it.
NATS paid for its own purchase by saddling itself with massive debt - NOT our new owners. So you can count me out when people like your sweet managers say they are doing everything to keep the company afloat.
Who is just about to sign away a huge chunk of our income by giving the Irish 90% of trans Atlantic traffic ? Remember all those tear jerking stories about only 14% of the volume but 40% of the income ?.
So now the Government and our management say there is no money...... errrrr so we just say OK you were right ????
We have said all along the staff did not vote for privatisation so we won't pay for it.
NATS paid for its own purchase by saddling itself with massive debt - NOT our new owners. So you can count me out when people like your sweet managers say they are doing everything to keep the company afloat.
Who is just about to sign away a huge chunk of our income by giving the Irish 90% of trans Atlantic traffic ? Remember all those tear jerking stories about only 14% of the volume but 40% of the income ?.
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2 Six 4
We got privatised, we have to live with it. Nobody thinks it was a good idea, but it has happened. Simply sticking our collective heads in the sand and wishing for some miracle to happen will surely be the death of the company. I for one do not want that to happen, if only for the reason that I'm too old and lazy to start looking for a new job. I like the one I've got. The simple fact is that our beloved employer is not too strong at the moment, due to past events. Blaming people won't fix it. Whingeing about pay awards won't help. Maybe we should all try and pull together, if only temporarily, in order to keep the rickety old ship ploughing onward.
If you think that the management needs changing, apply for the job. We need more proper managers, not just people who can't be ATCOs any more. [Apologies to those ex-ATCOs who are actually making a decent job of management, you all know who you are].
DWB
P.S. I don't understand the Irish thing either, if it makes any difference. They've been after that particular slice of sky for years
We got privatised, we have to live with it. Nobody thinks it was a good idea, but it has happened. Simply sticking our collective heads in the sand and wishing for some miracle to happen will surely be the death of the company. I for one do not want that to happen, if only for the reason that I'm too old and lazy to start looking for a new job. I like the one I've got. The simple fact is that our beloved employer is not too strong at the moment, due to past events. Blaming people won't fix it. Whingeing about pay awards won't help. Maybe we should all try and pull together, if only temporarily, in order to keep the rickety old ship ploughing onward.
If you think that the management needs changing, apply for the job. We need more proper managers, not just people who can't be ATCOs any more. [Apologies to those ex-ATCOs who are actually making a decent job of management, you all know who you are].
DWB
P.S. I don't understand the Irish thing either, if it makes any difference. They've been after that particular slice of sky for years
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The thing which bugs me is that the "There is no more money" argument has been dragged out on every occasion since PPP.
We were told there was no more money at the last pay round, but the ATCOs stuck out and some was found, (only for PCS, who had accepted the argument, suddenly to have a change of plan and demand the same as ATCOs, even though their members had voted to accept the original deal...), and then we were told that LACC had to change to the new 0630 starts and so on 'for the Summer only'. This was mainly to avoid a £5m fine if delays were not got below 1.5 mins per flight. We were promised that this would 'put us in a strong position for the 2004 Pay Round'.
We have recently seen it praised around the company and national press that delays are now about 0.7 mins per flight. So not only have we saved them a £5m fine but we have HALVED the TARGET delay.
In my book, we have bent over backwards to accommodate the difficulties of the company following PPP, and it is time for some recognition of that. A pay award which only just matches inflation does not represent that.
The other point is that the AAVA scheme in use at LACC has saved the company's bacon in the delay figure and has been cheaper than employing enough ATCOs to staff the 22 Sectors or whatever they committed to open. The individuals concerned have done nicely out if it, and it is their business if they want to give up their spare time to turn up at work. I wouldn't mind betting that the ORO and others now RELY upon AAVAs to get them out of rostering holes, and to withdraw the agreement (and enforce it) will cause no end of trouble, especially with the CLN resectorisation going on.
I'm not going to enter the ATCO/ATSA debate other than to say that many ATSAs I talk to bemoan the devaluation of their job (rightly so), but are happy to pick up £30k+ for spending 2 hours at a time reading a novel and putting out paper strips. I'm not judging their motives, but the parallels with other industries for that kind of job will leave them very exposed! Whether they then 'deserve' a pay increase in line with ATCOs who are working harder is one which will run and run..
We were told there was no more money at the last pay round, but the ATCOs stuck out and some was found, (only for PCS, who had accepted the argument, suddenly to have a change of plan and demand the same as ATCOs, even though their members had voted to accept the original deal...), and then we were told that LACC had to change to the new 0630 starts and so on 'for the Summer only'. This was mainly to avoid a £5m fine if delays were not got below 1.5 mins per flight. We were promised that this would 'put us in a strong position for the 2004 Pay Round'.
We have recently seen it praised around the company and national press that delays are now about 0.7 mins per flight. So not only have we saved them a £5m fine but we have HALVED the TARGET delay.
In my book, we have bent over backwards to accommodate the difficulties of the company following PPP, and it is time for some recognition of that. A pay award which only just matches inflation does not represent that.
The other point is that the AAVA scheme in use at LACC has saved the company's bacon in the delay figure and has been cheaper than employing enough ATCOs to staff the 22 Sectors or whatever they committed to open. The individuals concerned have done nicely out if it, and it is their business if they want to give up their spare time to turn up at work. I wouldn't mind betting that the ORO and others now RELY upon AAVAs to get them out of rostering holes, and to withdraw the agreement (and enforce it) will cause no end of trouble, especially with the CLN resectorisation going on.
I'm not going to enter the ATCO/ATSA debate other than to say that many ATSAs I talk to bemoan the devaluation of their job (rightly so), but are happy to pick up £30k+ for spending 2 hours at a time reading a novel and putting out paper strips. I'm not judging their motives, but the parallels with other industries for that kind of job will leave them very exposed! Whether they then 'deserve' a pay increase in line with ATCOs who are working harder is one which will run and run..
Join Date: Jul 2003
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I would like to add that ATSAs dont just put out strips and read books. It may be that the job on the sectors at Swanwick has been reduced to that, however there are other posts that ATSAs are responsible for such as the FISOs at LACC and ScATCC, Data prep in the simulators, ATC project specialists at LACC and soon at Manchester, Supervisors in the simulators, Lighting panel operators at LHR and LGW, AIS, Flow Unit Coordinators at Swanwick, and I am sure that there are lots of other posts requiring specialised knowledge, training, and skill which are ATSA posts. I feel that some critics of ATSA personnel are being a little economical with the facts to prove their point. If I took a similar line one might draw attention to ATCOs who work in offices doing "stuff" that might easily be done by a proper administrator who would work without the benefit of NOS or a top of the scale ATCO I or ATCO II salary. I do not believe that having been an ATCO makes for, or can justify, the salary scales if one works within an adminisrative enviroment.