Gatwick-3

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.aol.co.uk/money/gatwick-talks-lenders-restrictions-push-074813061.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jLm5ld3Nub3cuY28udWsv&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA_TLBkXfspx5ugiEpmIUD8ViTPDnXgPERU80g fvXXK3Wjdru-HYveu2bNGW_n_GovnnmdmioC-n9gQmEt-Q4OlOFBDkn-93wKcEPG0PXBUCgRDRKxOfx26bBNivCc_1PlqcBGCB5HKuetDCO4Vw-s71I_pM_qn8DKjMtcbDJ4vR

[davidjohnson6]

If there is a serious risk of defaulting on loans (as opposed to loan covenants) then it sounds like Gatwick as a company was significantly over-leveraged

[gdiddy]

I think the China/HK routes will be hard to re-instate and unfortunately were only overflow routes for LHR when the times were good.

Relations between China and the UK/USA has deteriorated over the last 12-18 months, and I do not see the high number of Chinese visitors returning for some time to the UK. Foreign relations between China and other countries usually heavily dictates visitor numbers to a country from China, via the propaganda they provide to their citizens.

Chinese students coming to UK universities for studies has been a cash cow for the higher education sector, and the number of students now applying has heavily dropped off, and this will have an impact on the numbers using flights too.

Also with the stricter more authoritarian rule coming into place in Hong Kong, it is likely to have an impact on Brits visiting the city, as it was previously considered ex-British colony with democratic rule, which seems to be disappearing

China Airlines will be an interesting one, if that returns? Despite the name, it actually flies to Taipei in Taiwan which is a fully democratic and highly developed country. (But with a long complicated past that is closely linked to China.) I've used the route several times, on their A350's to Australia and got nothing but praise for the service and experience with them.

The flights have always been 80+% full (but that doesn't mean profitable), and is the only direct link between the UK and Taiwan. However the route was never increased in frequency from when launched, remaining at five return flights a week, which poses a question how successful it was? Unlike where they offered direct daily services to cities like Vienna, Frankfurt and Rome and just before the pandemic the daily route to Amsterdam was upgraded to the 777-300.

[Playamar2]

gdiddy
Flights from the UK to Taiwan were operated by both China Airlines A350 and EVA with a B77W. As far as I know London is the only city in Europe served by both carriers. Whether China Airlines returns to LGW depends if it manages to get slots at LHR.

[BA318]

EVA operates via BKK. Both carriers serve AMS and VIE.

[Buster the Bear]

With the Delta variant now causing chaos in parts of China, regional lockdowns over the next few months should be expected. This is bound to have a knock on effect via incoming tourism from China.

[STN Ramp Rat]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58200001

[WHBM]

davidjohnson6

I can't quite see it because the loans will have undoubtedly been subject to Parent Company Guarantees, and Vinci and GIP have not issued any warnings that they are in any jeopardy of defaulting. If they predate 2019 when Vinci bought a half-share then they will again undoubtedly have been revised to the new ownership at that time.

It's not quite apparent how they could manage to get to this position without, as described above, being substantially over-leveraged (alias borrowing too much), and/or having paid out too much from reserves as dividends. That doesn't sound quite like Vinci corporate, who commonly have a long term view of things. GIP can be different. I wonder if a difference of opinion has emerged between the two.

I wonder what the loans were for. It's not exactly like they have built a new runway or a new terminal, is it ? Lesser works should normally be paid for mainly out of retained earnings.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

There was the Pier 1 rebuild, all 5 gates of it and before that Pier 5 was redeveloped to properly seperate inbound and outbound passengers without sliding doors. They've also just rebuilt the A380 gate on 555.

[Vokes55]

And Pier 6 is being extended - or at least it was until Covid came and the works have since stopped, leaving a large, now weed-ridden mess in the middle of the airfield.

Airports are expensive. When you’re down to 23 passengers a day in the height of lockdown, I’m not sure why anybody is surprised.

[772]

https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/money/markets/article-9893969/Make-British-Airways-fly-lose-slots-says-Gatwick-boss.html

Virgin has made clear to us they certainly will be maintaining their slot portfolio. We do expect Virgin and Delta to start flying in the months ahead.'

GAL telling the same old story about BA and how airlines are queuing up for their slots, are they, really?

also can anyone shed any light on the quote above regards to VS? GAL saying they will be maintaining their slot portfolio, I thought under the current slot waiver rules if an airline withdraws from an airport all together they lose their control of those slots for good?

as for VS and DL to start flying at LGW in the coming months :confused:

[WHBM]

Pier 6 extension is small-scale in the general order of things, and being undertaken by one of the airports' two owners should not have required them to go out and get loans for its construction; that should have been able to come from existing earnings and not required them to go for a financial loan for it.

Regarding operating expenses for the last 18 months, some businesses have been better than others at reducing their outgoings.

[Vokes55]

Given that it meant the A380 stand had to be moved to Pier 5, which required the resurfacing of the taxiways leading to it and the stand itself to be completely rebuilt, plus the rerouting of an entire taxiway around the new extension, plus the extension itself, it’s not exactly a small and inexpensive project.

Aside from closing entirely, I’m also not sure what more you expected Gatwick to do? All but about 4 stands were completely closed at the height, everything else was switched off. The majority of infrastructure is still switched off. At the current traffic levels, Gatwick is going to struggle to pass 10 million passengers this year, which will mean two years at less than 25% of 2019 figures, and around 70 million fewer passengers than expected over that period. That’s a lot of lost revenue.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

When you put it like that, they should have said to Emirates they'd prefer them to use B77Ws.
There's no business case for this for one stand for one airline for an aircraft they've stopped building.

[Vokes55]

Possibly, but you could say the same for any airport that’s been modified to handle the A380. Does LHR T3 need six A380 capable stands? Did the 340-344 stands need to be reconfigured? The answer was no even pre-Covid.

Emirates bring a huge amount of revenue to an airport, both directly and indirectly. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[willy wombat]

SOF - don’t forget EK 380 was three flights daily at LGW so maybe not as ridiculous as you suggest to build the new EK stand at LGW. GLA modified a stand for the 380 for one flight a day for only 6 months a year.

[772]

I may be wrong but Im sure some time ago GAL thought (crazy in my view) that QR may bring the A380 to LGW hence strengthening the case for new 380 stand on pier 5

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Pier 6 at LHR has 4 A380 stands but they're not exclusively used for the Super heavy. They did have SQ, QF and two EK departures back pre T2 opening so the additional 2 stands were contingency as BA also came to use A380s out of T3. LGW had one A380 stand on Pier 6 for their one operator, but I think Gate 110 was part of the Pier 6 extension so change was needed?

[772]

Stand 110 and 111 were used by other aircraft too. As you say with the pier 6 extension the 109/110/111 (tel:109/110/111) end of the pier was impacted so if GAL wanted an A380 stand they had to invest anyway in upgrading an existing stand.

[Vokes55]

The 340-344 stands were reconfigured long before BA showed up with the A380. Even 301 was rarely used for the A380 once Singapore moved to T2. Perhaps the A380 stands at T4 would’ve been a better example of the point I was trying to make.

110 at LGW was ideal as it was the closest stand (NT - no ST stands would’ve been suitable without a significant rework of that part of the airfield) to the existing infrastructure that allowed LGW to be used as a diversion airport for the A380, which was basically the standby runway and parallel taxiway, as well as the closest stand to the taxiway next to the tower. It was a bit of a nightmare on the inside as the stand it replaced was designed for 150 passengers, not 500+, not to mention it was a 10 minute walk from the departure lounge and, most importantly for EK, their business class lounge. The stand did have parking for two smaller aircraft (110L/R) but even 111 couldn’t be used for a flight departing at a similar time due to the boarding gate congestion.

The new stand (558) is now mostly used as two stands (557/559) by narrow bodies. This was how it was used pre-Covid for based EZY aircraft that were arriving after the last A380 departure in the evening and/or leaving before the first A380 arrival in the morning. Great when it works, not great when every morning departure had a slot and the stand/s were still occupied when the A380 arrived

The EK A380 will be back at Gatwick. There are a lot of A380 capable stands around the world which will never see an A380 again.

[JW95]

772

I too am intrigued about VS. The CEO was quoted towards the end of last year that a return to LGW had not been completely ruled out (hence the decision to retain their slots at the airport). However, he did make clear that LGW operations would not be reinstated in the short term, given the current situation, and the recent drive to reduce losses and operational costs by consolidating London operations at LHR. That said, the recent expansion of leisure flying by the airline in the Caribbean including the return to UVF might be the reason why VS' return to LGW is being flagged up again. After all, it was the leisure network that has historically been based at LGW, so who knows. Virgin might also be watching JetBlue's upcoming entrance to LGW, in addition to Norse Atlantic, although I suspect this is relatively minor in the bigger scheme of things. I suspect a return to Gatwick will become clearer once slot utilisation rules change, in which case VS will be forced to either use them or lose them permanently. It would be nice to have them back at LGW.

[brianj]

Always the possibility that VIR sell some Heathrow slots to raise some much needed money and move those flights back to little old Gatwick….

[Charley B]

Looks like a few BA shorthaul could be on the cards for winter 21…I looked on BAwebsite and there are flights to TFS and ACE and FAO showing in November ..hopefully better news for LGW🙏

[SWBKCB]

How much are LHR slots worth at the moment? They have slots they aren't using at LHR/LGW which other airlines would like to have - can't go on indefinitely.

[772]

all LGW SH is selling on ba,com as ‘normal’ will all be moved up the road for winter, in time unfortunately

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Is the Virgin hangar at LGW closed permanently now? What about the North Terminal Clubhouse? Has it been stripped out for re-use yet?
LGW could well be cheaper to operate from for some of the Beach Fleet routes but the core clientele that make the money like their lounges and Virgin experience, so the Clubhouse would likely need some proper re-investment. It may also depend on how the inevitable churn on LHR slots means VS can get hold of some more. They may also be using the albeit minor threat of Gatwick to apply pressure on HAL not to crank fees up again.

[772]

Would the clubhouse need investment? VS only moved over to the North in January 2017 ( I think) BA’s S terminal lounges are lovely so would expect the same from VS ones in the North still.

I don’t know but would doubt anything has been done to it since VS left, no other airline would have a use for it and VS and GAL hinting (however likely/ unlikely) at a return I would think it would just be mothballed for now

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I could be wrong but I read the space had been cleared to be re-used, hence they'll need to invest to put it all back, Cos otherwise they've been paying rent on the space when they have no flights operating or planned which given the cash situation seems unwise, unless they were locked into a long term lease. Anyone know?

[MDS]

FR launching AGP-LGW 6x weekly at the end of October. AGP based a/c.

I wonder if this is testing the waters for further expansion.

[772]

Skipness One Foxtrot

oh, ok fair enough. Interesting if it has been cleared for reuse, not sure what use, can’t see any need for more retail or other lounges for a long time and, (I don’t see it happening) but GAL are quick to talk up a VS return so to clear their lounges out is an interesting move.

I too would be Interested to know

[772]

MDS

interesting, clearly EasyJet have LGW sewn up but with no BA short haul, no TCX, no MON, no DY short haul it’s worth FR giving LGW a shot on some more short haul

[AirLCY]

And perhaps trying to stop Wizz growing too much at LGW

[JW95]

772

Count me in. Given that there are no airlines (to my knowledge) lining up for lounge space at LGW North, you'd think it makes more sense financially to leave it as it is/was. That said, the situation RE. VS returning to LGW has been up in the clouds for the last 15 months, so I can see the case for clearing the space for another carrier further down the line if VS throw the towel in and sell all their LGW slots. The question is though, who would take over the space, be it current or future operator? JetBlue won't be investing in a lounge and the same goes for the upcoming Norse Atlantic operation. BA already have their lounges in the South terminal and will move back ASAP once the terminal reopens, along with all other airlines usually based there (FR, W6, EI, TK to name a few). No doubt LGW are in constant discussions with VS and will bend over backwards to get the leisure network back, (as well as other long haul carriers that have recently consolidated at LHR). Who knows, maybe there is some truth to Stewart Wingate's words. I hope so, as I said in my earlier post, I would absolutely love to see VS back at LGW, it really is a pleasure to fly from and GIP have poured £££££ into the place since they took over from BAA.

[vectisman]

I have discovered as the result of asking on another forum website that the BA Maintenance Base at Gatwick remains operational.
There has been some staff redundancies bit the remaining staff are being kept busy with line maintenance for several airlines, keeping aircraft parked at Gatwick airworthy as well as
carrying out a maintenance contract for Vueling. I am pleased it has not gone completely. This may not be news to other commentators on here but it cheered me up a bit!

I remember just before Covid 19 hit early last year, the Gatwick Base Management had put forward a business plan to the IAG board to secure its future, that had been accepted. Hopefully, it will manage to keep going until things improve.. It has a skilled
and flexible workforce.

[vectisman]

I also posted this on another forum and wondered if any posters here may wish to comment. I guess I am more thinking allowed and appreciate the operational difficulties that may be involved.

'I do understand that BA has to protect its Heathrow slots during the winter months but I can see the potential of running some services to key winter sun destinations from Gatwick
Flights to Tenerife, Las Palmas, Paphos , Arrecife, Madeira etc could utilise several aircraft for 8 plus hours a day, plus keep some of the slots active at Gatwick.
In the past those routes have been well supported during the winter months. In some cases operating twice daily. I appreciate completely things are now very different. '

[fivejuliet]

FR have dropped their ORK-LGW service so one wonders if they are just putting those slots to work

[True Blue]

Wizzair has been awarded quite a large number of slots and has been very vocal about slots being hoarded. I can understand why they haven't rushed to put new routes on sale at Lgw, but they are not flying existing routes, but offering services from Ltn on those same routes. At what point will they make a serious debut into Lgw with the expansion they have talked about for a long time now?

[pabely]

A few of us have been chatting about the number of sub charters occurring on WZZ flights, we can only think they are short of crews.

[Dannyboy39]

I don’t think it’s an unusual thing this summer - airlines have mothballed more aircraft than they expected to need and as such our wet lease operators appear almost busier than ever picking up the slack.

[pabely]

Dannyboy39 - Google "wizzair crew shortage" it is due to staff who have left and is unusual for a carrier like WZZ.

[InSeat19c]

As someone who lives fairly close to Gatwick, I prefer the quieter skies.

The first lockdown was awesome from that point of view.

[772]

Quieter skies meant heavy job losses, a costly price to pay.

[Yeehaw22]

InSeat19c

​​​​​​Have you thought you might live in the wrong place?
​​​

[Vokes55]

And be on the wrong forum?

[True Blue]

Corendon starting Bodrum 2 weekly next May.

[ETOPS]

Looks like another "runway expansion" fight looming - can't see the local protesters letting this proceed without a fuss..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/25/gatwick-to-proceed-with-conversion-of-emergency-runway

And found this...

https://www.gatwickairport.com/business-community/future-plans/

[772]

It was expected, but air see BA are in the process, of moving all SH flights to LHR for w21

[772]

good news, let’s hope GAL manage to make this happen

[Nil by mouth]

An article from my local rag. https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2021/08/25/gatwick-plans-expansion-and-job-creation/

[pamann]

Standby for IAG’s update on future plans for the BA short haul offering from Gatwick due some point today.

I get the impression it won’t be the BA short haul product offered pre-pandemic. Vueling perhaps?

[vectisman]

I believe the IAG plan is for BA long haul at Gatwick to continue as per usual with a new subsidiary set up to concentrate on Gatwick short haul. I don't feel this will be Vueling or Level but
a form of BA.
A new subsidiary will also have potential to increase the number of destinations offered. BA already have the infrastructure in place at Gatwick, check in areas, lounges and engineering centre that could all be shared.
If it means that BA will continue to have a strong presence in some form at Gatwick that, in my opinion, will be a positive.

I am sure Gatwick Airport will only be to pleased to cut good deal. Perhaps the South Terminal will be back on operation too next summer if these plans are realised.

However, I do share concerns about the staff at Gatwick and possible terms and conditions changes. The BA staff at Gatwick have always been great at all levels. I think this stems from being part of a smaller team that had to stick together and deliver a good service knowing that LHR was favoured by some of the management!

I continue to believe that BA does not wish to leave Gatwick to Easyjet, Ryanair and Wizz. In recent years it has become a successful base for them delivering6 million plus passengers a year. They made a costly mistake in 2008 when Easyjet was operating just a few flights a day. It is now nearly a 60 aircraft base! (Agreed at the moment smaller owing to Covid, but it will grow again!)

My personal opinions as always!

[toledoashley]

vectisman - Reading between the lines of the reports, that does seem to be the direction they are looking to take. I wouldn't be surprised if it were named with a connection to BA's heritage (maybe Speedbird - although that could be confusing with callsigns) - its similar to BA, but different enough. Gives them the licence then to change the onboard service and ticketing structure - maybe more of Vueling style service, but still retain the essence of what the Gatwick base has been good at.

[BA318]

I don't think this is about onboard service. Its already pretty much been to Vueling levels. It's buy on board (granted they brought back the bottle of water and a nutrigrain bar) and the fares are already aligned with a basic offering with no seat selection, baggage etc. This is about being able to cut wages and reduce crew conditions and benefits.

[toledoashley]

Yes - I understand it isn't completely about that, just it decouples Gatwick from the BA brand if they wanted to experiment. In addition to contacts etc.

[EI-BUD]

In effect a BA version of Iberia Express?
Creating a subsidiary that will be at a lower cost to allow it to compete with easyJet, Wizz etc.
On balance this is good news for Gatwick in that BA will stay in some form and long haul continues.

[Buster the Bear]

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/ba-working-on-gatwick-short-haul-operation

[Dannyboy39]

Why not just reduce their prices and call it British Airways? The T&Cs of the staff are hardly legacy anymore anyway.

[willy wombat]

What can you say about BA? They bought a low cost operation at Gatwick (Dan Air), merged it into BA and lost all the cost savings. They started a low cost operation (Go) and decided they didn’t like it so sold it. They bought another low cost operation at Gatwick (CityFlyer Express) and subsequently merged that into BA and lost all the cost savings (BA CityFlyer at LCY is a separate operation). I know BA achieved some significant cost savings at LGW over the past few years but I think the likelihood of a new BA low cost operation at LGW being a long term success is slim. I’m sure they will be able to do “low fare” but that’s not the same as “low cost”.

[GBYAJ]

Going back just a few years…. but I’m sure what was left of Dan Air was renamed European ops at Gatwick to achieve just this with staff on worse T&c than BA.

how about half the fleet painted in BCal colours the other half Dan Air?

[772]

Interesting, I read it would be the same aircraft and some long haul retained. Any one who used to work in any capacity for BA on the ground at LGW now works for GGS on a brand new contract with lesser pay and conditions , I think any crew that were remaining went onto new or changed pay and conditions so not sure how much in the way of cost savings could be made.

using Vueling or level etc , neither have much brand awareness in the U.K. and to throw away the ba brand at LGW wouldn’t make sense in my view so what are the savings that would allow this new outfit to dramatically offer cheaper seats than what ba mainline could now?

[inOban]

The story is also on the BBC. Balpa seem to indicate that negotiations are nearly complete, as I read it.

[spacedog]

BA318

completely agree. There is nothing left to strip from the short haul cabin service with the exception of eliminating any Club/Premium service. Sounds like it will be a single cabin operation. This Has been done before with Go from Stansted and Flying Colours. Go was sold to Easy jet, Flying colours absorbed back into mainline BA. The savings that BA want to make I fear will come from what is left of any ground staff at LGW. Tech crew and cabin crew will be on inferior terms and conditions to mainline staff. The wages will be marginally above minimum wage. I think it’s disgusting the way BA treats its staff. The CEO Sean Doyle has been in situ now for 9-10 months and has done nothing. He inherited a right **** show from Alex Cruz but so far has said and done nothing. The management team is nothing more than useless. Performance at the moment is abysmal. At some point Sean Doyle needs to show himself and start leading the company, put his identity on it. If he waits too long shareholders will get impatient and move him out. BA at the moment has larger problems than starting/rebranding it’s short hail operation from LGW. I think if BA continue on the path they are taking they will become irrelevant within a short space of time. BA are neither a low cost carrier or a Full service airline, they are caught in the middle sandwiched at both ends by carriers that do either no frills or full service better.

[Alteagod]

Do BA self handle at LGW above and below wing? That would be one cost saving but not sure what a BA lite operation brings to the UK aviation scene tbh at the moment but in a perverse way could be cheaper to do this than pay massive redundancy payments to staff.
I just don't get it at all

[nguba]

Remember this is all being driven by IAG, not BA. Current IAG CEO Luis Gallego was originally CEO of Iberia Express, which probably points to the likely outcome.

I really don't see how much there is to be saved at LGW. The cost base has been reviewed countless times. I think some ground handling was outsourced to Swissport and then brought back in house to a separate company.

Creating a separate brand and AOC will all add extra cost and complexity.

[PAXboy]

willy wombat Identifies the failed attempts as BA did the standard corporate flip-flop. Each time a new boss has to prove he is boss by doing something, doing ANYTHING. The GO operation was very good and thrown away for nothing. But we have seen so many legacy companies do this: Think they can jump on the new band wagon and then find that it doesn't 'fit' their legacy way of doing things. We have seen countless airline attempts at this, as well as the high ranking failure of Chrysler-Daimler. We won't even start on watching political parties try to reinvent themselves. With all of these - they cannot escape that they are (for the most part) still the same people in the same building thinking the same way.

I agree that the staff are going to take the hit (as always) so that the boys at the top can get their bonus and the shareholders their rakeoff.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Alteagod

They outsourced below the wing to Swissport and it fell apart, they then brought it back in house as GGS with lower terms and conditions.
Remember the only reason Iberia Express was formed was to force Iberia mainline to accept vastly inferior terms and conditions or be salami sliced across to I2. It still exists as a reminder of what can happen if the unions get bolshy, Iberia Express and Iberia are effectively one and the same brand and experience but one AOC is used to beat the other. What BALPA do not want is the BA LGW pilots who are on the masterlist to be cut away to a second AOC, it's classic divide and conquer, yet again.

[compton3bravo]

Do not forget the amount of slots that BA hold at Gatwick. I am sure they do not want to see easy, Ryanair and Wizz more or less taking the lions share of the slots available. The owners of Gatwick would still like to see some sort of BA brand i.e. BA Express - at the airport. 'We do not want Gatwick to become the south coast Luton/Stansted heaven forbid!'

[EI-BUD]

Hi Paxboy,
Hindsight is 20:20 vision. BA sold Go as they needed the cash at that time and there was no appetite the model at that stage, despite fact it had turned a corner. The airline since recognised it was foolish to allow the low cost airlines to steal the show.

It is fascinating that so many commentators criticise the motives of management when they are trying to strip cost to ensure the viability of the business, we are in an unprecedented crisis. I'd rather explore the possible options with this than see BA exit LGW fully.

This needs to be looked at through a commercial lens. The real underlying issue here is the deregulated market that came about in 1992 and a free for all led by Ryanair in stripping the cost of everything back to the bone, this has set the bench mark in cost terms and certainly in short haul terms will continue to do so. I know it's sad and inpalletable that airlines have cut employee terms and conditions.

I think in terms of branding they need to look to the group (IAG) and lever the brands. The group look likely to acquire Air Europa in the near future. The result is a slew of brands, Iberia, Iberia Express, Level, Aer Lingus, BA, BA Cityflyer, Vueling and now potentially BA Express etc. Having a rationalised chain of brands makes sense at group level and putting this new entity into that could result in a bigger brand with greater reach, operation efficiencies eg scheduling from various bases, this bring huge benefits. I think there is a better way than creating a new unit. Union constraints should be no issue, they were able to get around all the Union rules during the pandemic.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Iberia Express and BA CityFlyer are not "brands", both are parent branded. They're AOCs or operating companies. Brand is a consumer facing marketing term. For instance Loganair were still Loganair but branded as BA then latterly flybe.

[TURIN]

Aer Lingus UK at MAN. What next Iberia UK at LGW?
Best of luck to all concerned.

By the way, I thought Flying Colours developed into JMC and then eventually Airtours and Thomas Cook. Could be wrong though, it was a long time ago.

[Charley B]

I thought that too about Flying Colours x

[pamann]

I think there’s been some confusion with the Flying Colours situation, which was I believe known as ‘AML’ that operated some longhaul leisure routes ex LGW with the B777 either late 90’s or early 00’s?

[Charley B]

our BA flight to Montego Bay in 1999 was definately JMC crew x

[ETOPS]

The most people I ever flew was an AML config 772 from Gatwick - including crew and pax/ babies it totalled 412 :eek:

[772]

I can imagine! 3-4-3 in M and no W cabin if I remember correctly?

[T250]

compton3bravo

Bit awkward, have you seen Gatwick recently?! That's exactly the market they should be chasing instead of the previous management's delusion they were 'competing' with Heathrow!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Charley B

To be clear, flight deck was mainline BA, cabin crew was JMC.

[Charley B]

thanks,it was cabin crew we chatted to who said they were JMC..they were looking forward to a week in the sun😉

[VickersVicount]

Only some of the cabin crew were Flying Colours and at least three of the flight deck team were also trained from Flying Colours.

[Buster the Bear]

The best move IAG could ever do, is buy Wizz, job done at Gatwick! Job though done on the BA staff - take it, or leave it!

[nguba]

If this goes ahead, presumably BA will go back to having two sets of cabin crew doing long haul and short haul flying at LGW, before they were brought together as a single fleet 15 odd years ago.

[toledoashley]

Could it instead be the case that LGW LH would be crewed by LHR, and LGW SH would be separate?

[Asturias56]

well there'll be 2 sets of crew but they won't both be called BA

For a Low Cost operation work it has to be a low wage, long hours operation and without any connection to the management & unions at BA

It wouldn't surprise me if it was HQ'd in Madrid or Dublin just for that reason

[pabely]

With Vueling doing the Spanish routes at the moment I wonder if those will come under that umbrella, best hurry up before Wizzair gets fully going

[vectisman]

I believe some of you are overthinking this situation. It will be a BA subsidiary probably registered with a name like British Airways Gatwick. Passengers will probably notice very little difference. I can’t see Club going as that is one thing that differentiates it from others at Gatwick. I have been reading several other articles and the general opinion tends to be BA looking for a lower cost base rather than just lower fares.
As for long haul and short haul cabin crew I am not certain. it may well be that long haul cabin crew will be mainline and short haul contracted to the new subsidiary. Not really that difficult to manage. Both long haul and short haul parts at Gatwick can easily share check in area, lounges, maintenance etc… as before.
As said above this will be another company(albeit in name only) within the BA brand. It is this brand that will be recognisable to the 6 million plus passengers who pre-covid use BA at Gatwick.
Of course I could be radically wrong but am fairly confident it will be something similar to what I have said above.
When agreed it will interesting to see the proposed network. The email sent to staff spoke of a domestic and European network of some scale. I suspect aircraft will A319/A320 to allow flexibility for different routes. Maybe some A321s in the summer peak. Remember IAG has been moving towards a common aircraft specification to allow fleet flexibility within the group.
Overall I see this as a positive move. It keeps BA at Gatwick in both long haul and short haul and ensures that they don’t give the market totally to easyJet and others.

[D9009]

How about BA European Operations at Gatwick, that's a catchy title.

[pabely]

BEA & BOAC would be nice!

[willy wombat]

Unless BA “proper” is prepared to sell check in, ground services, maintenance etc to the new EOG at rates comparable to those offered by third party providers, it won’t work. There’s a lot more to “low cost” than just pilot and cabin crew Ts and Cs.

[772]

checkin and ground services are all with GGS now, wholly owned by BA but a handling agent with handling agent salaries and contracts, all done a year ago so that’s already been done. Anyone working above or below wing now is in new pay, contract and Ts and Cs and Last year saw all BA staff who worked on their ticket desk, arrivals baggage desk in the arrivals hall and flight control agents leave the business so huge savings have been made already on the ground.

bear in mind BA LGW short haul was profitable pre covid with the legacy costs of many still in the business at the time, all gone now, and with proposed changes to crew pay and working conditions, I see no reason why this won’t work, as long as they keep the BA branding.

[vectisman]

From information I have read from elsewhere one of the changes being negotiated is contract seasonality.
BA short haul at Gatwick is incredibly busy in the Summer season plus Christmas and New Year, less so November and February. Winter Sun and Winter Ski have in the past been useful at filling some of the gaps but not enough. For example Summer 2019 up to 90 daily departures, Winter 2019 45 to to 50 including the long haul. Although there may be scope for more winter destinations if costs allow.
It is similar for EasyJet who have about 30 to 40 seasonal destinations at Gatwick. I think they use those months to do a lot of aircraft maintenance too.

[772]

that’s very true and accurate. As you rightly say, Summer peak BA LGW was at up to 90ish departures a day precovid, winter ranged from 35 to 45ish departures a day.

the five months of winter, November through to March. November was always very quiet as was early December. Mid to late December it picked up, BA LGW cleverly added NUE and CGN to target the Christmas markets, also RVN and KTT Lapland charters, it then dropped off again in January and built through February and March with increased ski destinations and March saw med destinations pick up.

canaries also were popular in winter due to their climate.

The winter period in general, and especially the the main lean periods of November and early December and January would need, from BAs point of view, some ability to maybe have periods of unpaid leave, part time working etc to aid cost saving and aid flexibility.

im thinking aloud but possibly some staff being full time for summer and reduced hours over winter or with periods of enforced unpaid leave would all help BA.

[inOban]

Or alternatively annualised hours - some our LA workers are paid the same every month, regardless of how many hours they work. Obviously if they exceed the annual figure, overtime kicks in.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

When did above the BA above wing handling go to GGS? I guess it was when they moved back to the North Terminal? When you say the BA staff "left the business", I am hoping you meant TUPED across to GGS?

I wonder if BA Engineering would have to bid to cover maintenance for their own fleet once more?

As for the new name for the LGW based short haul leisure operation, I am surprised that no one has suggested "British Airtours"..... LOL it's not really brand aligned for 2021 alas.

[772]

August 2020 above wing went to GGS. No, I meant left the business all together, approx 15% of above wing staff TUPED across.

[cavokblues]

I'm very surprised the unions are tolerating this to be honest. They've been very protective in the past of a fear Cityflyer pilots may be used on 'mainline' operations to undercut mainline T&Cs.

If this happens and is successful it's only a matter of time, IMO, before they look to do similar at Heathrow short haul before moving onto the long haul stuff.

Standard divide and conquer from IAG.

[772]

https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/08/29/balpa-british-airways-low-cost-gatwick-carrier/

interesting read. I agree with you regards it being the thin end of the wedge but at a time like this and with the prospect of increased work and jobs with LGW SH returning, not really something BALPA can be seen to be being against or blocking

[cavokblues]

Very interesting read, thank you for the link. That article seems quite bewildered as to what the gain is in doing it!?

[Asturias56]

If the article is correct this isn't really a Low Cost operation - it's just a slightly cheaper version of BA.

They won't be able to compete IMHO

[D9009]

This doesn't make any sense, BA tried to lower the cost base before by franchising the branded product with GB Airways, BMed, Maersk and BRAL, then tried a Low Cost operation with GoFly, and before that, EOG (Dan Air) crews were on different Ts and Cs, which proved difficult to integrate with mainline. BA should stick to what they are good at (while they still remember how to do it) and not try to enter the LCC world where they have absolutely no chance at all of bringing down the unit cost to RYR and WIZZ level.

They put mainline pilots into BRAL on the 146 and denied BRAL crews promotion and the Union stuffed its own members by allowing it, the same will happen again.

As daft ideas go, this is up there with Utopia/World Image.

[Blackfriar]

As for the new name for the LGW based short haul leisure operation, I am surprised that no one has suggested "British Airtours"..... LOL it's not really brand aligned for 2021 alas.

Surely Go is the best name or perhaps in view of the new BA CEO's nationality, Go On

[Blackfriar]

Asturias56

Doesn't it need to be a British company and if so would HQ in Dublin or Madrid be a problem?

[nguba]

I still can't see it's worth the hassle of setting up a separate AOC and all the associated complexity compared to the savings that will be made.

BA CityFlyer is at least a distinct operation from mainline and has a degree of relative autonomy, which this new AOC won't have.

[Blackfriar]

I've said it numerous times, from a business point-of-view, BA long haul needs to be a full-service airline competing globally. Short-haul is just another LoCo. The only thing stopping this is the legacy and unions, but if it doesn't it will die and the Union members will end up in a LoCo anyway, if at all.
Premium short-haul flying will go to the many private charter executive jets, which, with a bit of intelligent systems and marketing, could ensure flights were paid for each way with few dead-legs. The rest of the short-haul flyers will put up with an hour and a half in a narrow seat for £30 each way.

[vectisman]

Asturias. I think they will be competitive. Gatwick SH was profitable before Covid. The use of more seasonal contracts will ensure it will remain competitive in the quieter winter months. All ground staff are now part of GCS. (Another wholly owned subsidiary) pilots and cabin will also be on amended contracts. The engineering base will continue as a stand alone unit that will have to continue to compete for work both inside and outside the IAG group. At the moment the unit is kept busy with some line maintenance, looking after parked aircraft and a Vueling maintenance contract.
The situation may not be ideal but in the current climate probably better than no jobs at all. We shall have to see.

[WHBM]

vectisman

True of many operations. Financial centres like Frankfurt or Zurich fall right away in August and over Christmas/New Year, but can sell the whole aircraft as Club for a German trade fair in February, which is why having the flexibility to do both gives a significant advantage. Must say that BA Cityflyer at LCY seem to be more past masters at managing this than most others.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

If BA short haul is only a loco why in the name of God would anyone flying in Business Class connect over London on BA? No point flying in a long haul flat bed only to be stuck in a middle bolt upright Pinnacle when you're at your most tired. It's not that simple for a network carrier.

[willy wombat]

But surely that argues for different short haul products at LGW and LHR. Despite BA’s best efforts (remember the “hub without the hubub”?) LGW has never been a hub in the way that LHR is/was.

[nguba]

BALPA members are being balloted on the proposals. Up to 17 short haul aircraft at Gatwick in summer 2022:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/03/ba-pilots-to-vote-on-new-short-haul-subsidiary-at-gatwick

[CabinCrewe]

presumption being with some minor concessional negotiations they’ll accept given the circumstances
How long this venture would last in that format is anyones guess

[wallp]

How does 17 short haul aircraft compare to the size of the fleet pre Covid?

[Alex321]

Pre covid the LGW short haul fleet was -

A319's ex BMI x 10 DBCA/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/J & K
A320's in the GAT Series x 10 GATH/J/K/L/M/N/P/R/S/U
A320's ex BMI/BMED x 6 MIDO/S/T/X/Y & MEDK
A320's in the EUU Series x 6 (Off the top of my head I cant remember which 6 but it was the back end of EUU series of aircraft)

So total was 32 A/C

[772]

spot on, the EUU aircraft were

S, U, V, W, Y, Z

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

G-EUUT was LGW based pre COVID as well.
I heard the ex LHR A320s were coverted to bulk loading? Is the G-GAT* fleet containerised at all?

[772]

the G-GAT* and G-MID* A320s are loose loaded. I think G-MEDK may have been containerised

the G-EUU* birds that came down to LGW in summer were all containerised

[Dogma]

Any idea whom the Tour Operator is that is using Polish Enter Air - U.K. to Greece

And who Titan is operating for? They are clearly package holidays. Good effort in getting volumes if they are selling

[sunshine79]

Sunvil charter a Enter Air aircraft for the summer for their Greece routes. Not sure on Titan though

[Dogma]

Thanks Sunshine.

It seems the UK will be a social dumping ground for the foreseeable future. EU and Non-EU carriers allowed to operate UK routes with no reciprocal arrangements / rules

Any further information on these charters would be welcome

[AirportPlanner1]

That I’m afraid is a result of the electorate getting what they voted for. Enter Air by the way are EU, I’m not aware of any non-EU airlines operating any UK-EU routes.

[Dogma]

yup

Any ideas on who Titan are working for out of LGW this summer?

[772]

what Titan routes are you referring to?

[AirportPlanner1]

I think it is Neilson

[davidjohnson6]

New route and new airline
Virtual airline SkyAlps, operated by Luxwing, to fly to Bolzano in the Dolomite mountains in the far north of Italy from 15 December 2021. Lead-in price is 135 euros one way. Aircraft seem to be Dash 8, ex-Flybe
Schedule seems to be 1x weekly on Wednesdays. Not sure who the target audience is with that timetable

[AirportPlanner1]

Clearly skiers but weekend would surely have been better. It’s winter sport paradise around there.

Bolzano is a lovely city which British visitors may find surprisingly touristy - eg open top bus tours etc - given it is completely off the radar here. It’s also very different to typical Italian cities, not just in the language (German) but in how clean it is with higher-end shops. There’s loads to do in the surrounding area. I’ve wondered why no one has bothered operating there before, even if just TUI/Neilson etc winter packages. Summer is also a good time to go.

[Local Variation]

Ssshhh, don't tell anyone. They can stay at the lake down the road.

[davidjohnson6]

Bolzano's runway is (or was) surprisingly short - I doubt you could reliably get an A320 or B737 family aircraft in there without being prone to weather diversions, particularly with an Alps+winter constraint. That said, a more natural home in London for a sub-100 pax aircraft, particularly at high-ish leisure fares, is maybe London City rather than Gatwick

[toledoashley]

From Bolzano to the ski resorts (the nearest possibly being Selva or Predazzo) is at best 1 1/4, when it’s easily accessible from Innsbruck at just about a couple of hours. In a similar way lots of visitors to Florence fly into Pisa.

[ATNotts]

There are Alpine ski resorts local to Bolzano / Bozen but they aren't on the agenda for UK tour operators. The valleys of Pustertal and Antholzertal are good for cross country skiing and Biathlon, neither of which are popular winter sports for Brits.

[SWBKCB]

I'm sure Bolzano was served from MAN a number of years ago - I remember having to look up where it was! Austrian or InterSky Dash-8?

[LGWAlan]

appears there may also be a Sunday service too - but no outward flights loaded for Sundays yet

[HZ123]

Dash 8; Long way in a noisy aircraft with hardly a great deal of space for skies in the boot?

[Doors To Manuel]

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19600451.british-airways-scraps-plans-gatwick-subsidiary-union-talks-collapse/?ref=rss

[toledoashley]

Two things stand out:

1) The term - they couldn't come to an agreement for a 'BA-branded' carrier. Does that mean the alternative is a non-BA branded carrier?
2) 'Alternative uses'.

[Jackjones1]

Perhaps one of the other operators within the IAG group may step up to the plate?

[772]

All BA LGW SH, apart from MAN and GLA feeders, removed from sale, they aren’t messing about.

[cavokblues]

I'm assuming a fair few Gatwick crew are on furlough currently. With that ending next week I wonder what this means for their future?

I suspect BA are using that threat as a way of strongarming the union into accepting the new severely downgraded Ts&Cs (bases on the figures I saw anyway)

[TURIN]

There hasn't been a feeder flight from MAN for years.

[lfc84]

Lgw - man

I'm booked in it in Feb

[PAXboy]

Looking for a positive spin: At least mgmt now don't have to worry about spending all that money on runway expansion ... :ok:

[richardwpprn]

It appears, at the moment, to just be a BA suspension.

[772]

true from the wording of what I have seen but to withdraw flight from sale is pretty drastic action

had flights still be for sale I would see this as a tactic but not now it’s past that stage

[davidjohnson6]

Ryanair have played the "take flights off sale for a week and make airport sweat while we negotiate" tactic. If journalists ask questions, it can be put down to a "technical fault which we are working hard to resolve"

[Buster the Bear]

https://ukaviation.news/british-airways-abandons-gatwick-plans-after-failed-union-talks/

[dastocks]

lfc84

I think you're being very optimistic if you haven't considered the possibility that your flight will actually depart from LHR.

[vectisman]

The problem is that no other IAG brand has the London presence or clout of British Airways. Aer Lingus tried Europe from Gatwick and stopped. Vueling isn't that popular or well known in the UK.
Personally I would rather fly easyjet than Vueling.

In my non expert opinion this move is a mistake both in the short and long term. LHR is looking to put up charges to airlines considerably to recoup losses. The European leisure market is predicted to recover faster than long haul. That
leisure market is what Gatwick does well. Trying to get back in to Gatwick in a couple of years may well be difficult too.

British Airways will not be able to offer such competitive fares/holidays for its holidays from Heathrow, as it is a much higher cost airport. I don't believe for one minute that all of BA's Gatwick customers will follow it down the road to LHR.

We shall have to see what the plans are for BA long haul at Gatwick. I have been hearing anything from 11 to 15 airframes. If Heathrow does raise charges for long haul travel, there may well be move moves of routes that have a higher amount of point to point traffic.

[vectisman]

dastocks

The Manchester Gatwick is intended as a feeder flight for long haul at Gatwick. BA have today more or less confirmed it will go ahead as will a feeder service from Glasgow.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/british-airways-scraps-plans-to-reintroduce-short-haul-flights-from-gatwick-post-covid-12415115

Based short haul at LGW is finally gone.

MAN-LGW is intended for the Pakistan routes moved to LGW, as soon as PIA get back into MAN it'll be gone again. There's almost zero way to make that route work on connections only I think.
Not a criticism, gotta make hay while the sun shines, but the great untapped MAN-LGW market is something of a myth.

[TURIN]

vectisman

To be fair, this was supposed to happen pre-covid but got suspended. Strange that flights are on sale but no one has actually told the Manchester ground staff. 😁

[ImagineIf]

Jet2.com seasonal charters, ski & Lapland program - from Nov:

Destinations loaded are:-

BGO
IVL
RVN
KAO
ENF
TLS
TRN
SOF
GNB
FCO

Up to 3 738's on selected dates - program running through until end of March.

[vectisman]

Are you saying these are operating from Gatwick?

[ImagineIf]

Yes indeed :)

[davidjohnson6]

Who is chartering Jet2 to ENF ? In the past it's usually been Enter Air flying people to visit Santa for a day or with a deep desire to go on long trips with huskies... have Enter Air lost the business ?
The area around ENF has a *very* low population density

[ImagineIf]

Not sure but somebody has clearly and its good that a UK carrier is getting the business after a difficult 2 years. There are just a few ENF's loaded and as you said, they will be Santa trips one imagines. On a bad news day its good to see Jet2 coming to LGW for winter and who knows if this could blossom into something more off the back of today's news.

[easyboy22]

vectisman

yes programme for lgw for the winter

[vectisman]

Thank you for confirming.

[toledoashley]

Neilson have Turin and Toulouse on sale via their website, not sure on the others.

[mariofly12]

ImagineIf

How exactly is FCO a ski/lapland destination?

[LGS6753]

From the Sky report: "...will pursue alternative uses for the London Gatwick short-haul slots."

It doesn't look as though BA is about to gift the LGW market to EZY and WZZ, so some options for IAG are:
Operating a few services as BA mainline with fares to match.
Bringing in an IAG airline to take over some or all the routes, and remember it's not just Vueling, they also now own Air Europa. They could also use Aer Lingus, Iberia Express and/or Iberia mainline.
Leasing the slots out to someone who isn't a challenger, like Jet2.
Putting the BA name on a new franchisee set up to operate the services.

[AirportPlanner1]

mariofly12

Is it FDH perhaps? That has been operated in the recent past.

[DaveReidUK]

mariofly12

That's not what it says.

[VickersVicount]

Has the air europa deal even gone through?

[virginblue]

How many long-haul departures do these flight typically feed? It must be quite a few if it makes sense to BA to offer 300 or so seats from MAN/GLA purely for LGW longhaul feed ( I assume that in the past a lot of non-domestic short-haul flights now axed also provided some feed for the longhaul flights and were not purely P2P)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's mainly aimed at LGW-Pakistan for connecting to the Manchester and Glasgow diaspora, PIA were huge at MAN but are currently barred from UK airspace for safety violations.
Quite why BA feel the need to pick up Qatar's dropped LGW route by moving their own LHR service to LGW I genuinely can't guess at.

[ImagineIf]

mariofly12

I said seasonal charter, ski & lapland. I'm aware there is no skiing in Rome or Santa for that matter. So I guess Rome fits into the seasonal charter bracket, maybe its a private charter for a company, sports related or a short city break. 🙃

[BA318]

Skipness One Foxtrot

Isn't it a joint venture on LON-DOH between the two so it doesn’t matter who operates it the costs and profits are shared?

[virginblue]

I have some difficulties understanding the wisdom to operate 300 feeder seats from GLA and MAN to LGW just to fill a 400 or so seat aircraft there for a single route...? Wouldn't it make more sense for all involved to do a W-pattern with MAN on alternating days...? Probably it would, but if you are London Airways...

[Flightrider]

The same domestics also feed other BA long-hauls at Gatwick including Caribbean, Tampa, Punta Cana, Cancun, MoBay and Kingston. Although Islamabad is presumably important, I can't see this is exclusively to feed Islamabad.

[The96er]

Before Pakistan went on the red list, BA were, I’m informed, one week away from starting direct MAN-ISB direct. So it may be revisited.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

If they were launching in winter to feed winter sun EDI would surely be back before MAN.
Quite right about LGW-DOH but I don't see the sense in replacing a B788 with a much larger B772 when LHR-DOH isn't even back up to capacity. It's a funny one, maybe home working has allowed some ideas to be piloted that would be dismissed beforehand, or maybe something in the BA/QR codeshare mandates this, scratch that, I have no idea. (The usual then :) )

BA served MAN-ISB for ages on the B747-200, BA119 / 118 and latterly BA2119 / 2118 (?) were the LGW-MAN-ISB-MAN-LGW rotations, they even had B747-400s into Stand 44 at T3 for a time.

[TURIN]

virginblue

I think you may be underestimating the number of pax who use the ME3 from MAN to get to the east. BA are trying to get in on the act, finally.

[Vokes55]

Emirates back on December 10th. EK15/16 with the 77W.

[Charley B]

Great news 😀

[arfortune]

Anyone know if Jet2 are basing aircraft at LGW for their winter charters, or if they’ll be served from other bases?

[LBAflyer22]

Served from other bases? I presume you mean fly it in let's say night before they operate, do the series of charters, then fly it back out the day after back to base?

I think they'll fly one or two at the beginning of the charter's. If required elsewhere they could position it or swap it in the destination.

[irishlad06]

aircraft being based at LGW by the sounds of it. A few might fly in and out a few times a week but primarily based. Up to 4 aircraft apparently for their charter series.

[chaps1954]

Seems a very good idea as not as many aircraft required at each base in winter.

[bycrewlgw]

vectisman

You’re right. I’m one of them. I live just a few miles from Gatwick and wouldn’t consider Heathrow unless for long haul.

I usually fly BA where I can, have a stupid amount of avios but still the convenience of flying from Gatwick outweighs ‘brand loyalty’. I would always pay that bit more to fly BA rather than a LOCO. Maybe silly, but not everyone wants bargain basement prices and the scrum that comes with it.

recently went away where I could have used avios from LHR but instead switched airlines to fly from LGW. That’s just me but how many others are there that are prepared to do the same? BA will obviously know more about this than me but for them to claim they were unprofitable is surely a bit disingenuous.

[anothertyke]

Interesting to look at the CAA passenger data as we reach the end of furlough. Relative to August 19, for the market as a whole, August 21 traffic was standing at 27.5% ( 8.54m versus 30.87m). In league table terms, Belfast (both airports) was at the top with 48% ; Luton with 41%, Liverpool at 38%, most of the rest including Heathrow spread out between 25 and 33% with Gatwick an outlier at 20%. Recovery under way but a long way to go.

[guern123]

arfortune

Canterbury Travel are doing lapland flights late nov into dec using jet 2

[vectisman]

Now being reported that BA and BALPA are in talks about Gatwick. More detail tomorrow apparently. Could be interesting. New ballot planned.

[arfortune]

And Hotelplan (Inghams, Santa’s Lapland etc); we’re travelling with them on 19/12!

[LGS6753]

From the Telegraph:.....A spokesman for British Airways said: “Our short-haul operation at Gatwick was consistently unprofitable and we were clear that we could not re-start short-haul flights unless we were able to establish a competitive platform.

“While we have been actively pursuing alternative uses for our slots, last week Balpa asked us to resume discussions. These talks were constructive, addressed key concerns and have secured the efficiencies required. Balpa is now taking a new proposal to its members.”

[True Blue]

Sun Express now have Dalaman on sale as well as Ayt. Will we see more routes from them? Is this a sign that they are moving from Ltn?

[vectisman]

Air Malta is also now planning to return to Gatwick in December with 3 flights weekly. Originally it was going to be Summer 2022.
Air Malta Gatwick flights in Summer 2022 will be daily.

[vectisman]

Jet2 is also advertising for Passenger Services staff for its Gatwick Winter charter services. Period of employment is from November 1st 2021 to early April 2022. Be interesting to see if they plan anything for next Summer. Not saying its likely, but not impossible.

If British Airways goes ahead re-introducing short haul at Gatwick next Summer with the previously suggested 17 SH aircraft, they will still not require all the slots they were using in Summer 2019 (About 90 slot pairs) Both the long haul and short operation would require about 60 or more slot pairs (depending on the length of the planned short haul routes) so there would be some that could initially be leased out. The original plan was to increase the fleet by 3 or 4 SH units a year for several years, so longer term would need all of their slots.
Of course they may have plans for other IAG airlines to use some of them.

Again possible that Jet2 could be interested. However, they would surely want them long term and would be another competitor for the BA operation. Could be interesting.

At the moment looking like BA long haul at Gatwick will need about 8 777s from December rising to 11 777s next Summer. All this could change depending on demand. However at the moment bookings to places like Caribbean, Cancun and Mauritius are very strong. There may even be some Orlando services from Gatwick this winter owing to increased demand.

Obviously still a way to go when compared to Summer 2019 (15 777s and up to 32 SH aircraft). However, much better than 2020 and 2021! Hopefully BA short haul will return. Much more optimistic than I was 2 weeks ago!

[True Blue]

Why has Wizzair not made more of an effort to get started again at Lgw? For an airline that has said so much about their intentions for Lgw, I find their current strategy odd? Travel is starting to re-cover, but they seem to be making little effort at Lgw. They were also successful in gaining a lot more slots, yet they are making little effort to use them. They do seem happy to get Ltn going again however.

[vectisman]

bycrewlgw. The problem with profit for BA at Gatwick was the seasonality of the most of the short haul route network. I believe long haul from Gatwick has been profitable for a number of years. Some of the
long haul destinations served continue to be very lucrative. Short haul was profitable in the summer, but made losses in the winter owing to the seasonal nature of the operation. In recent years years they tried to overcome
this by increasing Winter Sports destinations, the Christmas markets and increased flying for ski operators and the Lapland charters. However these were not enough. You had enough staff for the summer but too many for the winter.

If BA Gatwick had been allowed to compete with the BA Heathrow operation in terms of routes, there may have been less of a seasonal issue.

If an European route became too successful it went back to Heathrow. Examples are Bologna in Italy, Luxembourg and Barcelona.(Barcelona was a split operation for a while then went back to being solely Heathrow). Some destinations could support duel operation such as Amsterdam and some domestics. Geneva could have worked all year round at Gatwick but was only allowed to operate there from December to April (Ski season) to prevent dilution of the Heathrow yields.

I believe the 'new' short haul operation allows for more seasonal contracts for crews and ground staff that should help reduce/avoid the winter losses. For example, full time employment in the Summer, maybe 50% in the winter, plus other combinations. We shall have to see how things develop.

Seasonal variation has been less of an issue for the long haul operation. Less Florida for example could be made up in Winter by more to the Caribbean and destinations like Mauritius and at one time Male.

[vectisman]

True Blue. Which slots did Wizzair manage to acquire? I would imagine that Ryanair, EasyJet and Wizzair are a little disappointed that the BA slots at Gatwick may now not be available!

[True Blue]

According to the last 2/3 slot reports, they have managed to acquire some additional slots, did they not? I can understand why they didn't operate them in 2020 and most of 2021. But should they not be trying a little bit harder at Lgw if they want a 20 aircraft base there?

[vectisman]

True Blue. Many thanks for the information. If BA short haul returns and succeeds I cant see a 20 aircraft Wizzair base in the short term (or even longer). I can see both EasyJet and BA competing hard to
prevent one too! Such a large base would need 40 to 50 daily slot pairs. I am not sure that, even after the pandemic, in Summer 2022 there would be that many available. However I could be wrong!

[JW95]

News RE. BA short haul resumption at LGW is definitely positive and encouraging, and will prove to be a strategically valuable decision going forward, especially as aviation continues to bounce back and LHR fills back up. I'm also sure that BA management are very mindful about what happened last time when LGW was de-hubbed and the subsequent expansion of EZY/take over of GB Airways. Hopefully this will also mean that the South terminal is one step closer to reopening- have there been any indications of when the terminal might reopen?

Also, any updates on China Airlines possibly returning to LGW for the winter? The LGW airline and terminal page still lists CI, but wasn't sure if they're remaining at LHR? Hopefully LGW can begin to attract more long haul back that it had pre-Covid.

[davidjohnson6]

How is the new Easyjet lounge different from a standard paid-for lounge ? The only difference I can see is that it's set at a lower price point than other lounges and has an area for small kids.
I'm not sure why this needed the involvement of Easyjet instead of an existing lounge operator opening up something with this new admission policy. Do Easyjet intend to do a hard sell of the lounge in the booking process as the dominant operator at North terminal, taking a commission for each lounge access purchase, similiar to car hire ?

Will Easyjet customers (eg those with Plus card, Flight Club or Flexi tickets) get some form of preferential access rate ?

[BA318]

I assume it will bring in some cash, probably an easy up sell at check-in and when booking. It would also offer them the ability to offer a business class style fare. Wouldn’t take much change to do so.

[pamann]

If it has a ‘kids’ policy I’ll stick with the regular Number 1 Lounge thanks.

[Nightstop]

The last thing I need is to be surrounded by potentially infected Covid kids in an Airport Lounge. At £18.50 minimum as well, no thanks.

[BA318]

Most lounges allow kids. A kid area is actually probably better as it allows the kids to be entertained rather than run around or play iPads out loud.

Personally I’ve never been disturbed by kids in a lounge or on a plane. Obnoxious adults taking zoom calls or loud phone calls are far more common and annoying for me.

[pabely]

I believe it is My Lounge that will become Gateway Lounge and not be the No1 Lounge. You have Clubrooms as well but that is not open again yet.

[Dannyboy39]

davidjohnson6

Is the only difference from the existing lounge the orange sign at the front and the easyJet aircraft model?
And what actually is the benefit of being in 'Flight Club'... I've genuinely never used my membership. If they want to appeal to more business passengers (it seems to be fairly appealing already), have a FFP worth having.

[toledoashley]

From experience, generally you can get through on the phone quicker as a Flight Club member - however, with easyJet I think its the whole digital side they are lacking. Your ‘profile’ doesn’t know if you’re flight club or not, your can’t even see what your membership number is through the profile.

For something like this, whether you pay for easyJet Plus, or a Flight Club member (remembering you have to fly a decent amount of times to qualify) - I know they want to move away from physical cards, but there’s nothing stopping them having digital ones.

[gdiddy]

vectisman

While I am sure Wizz are still keen to grow at Gatwick, I think growth in the UK is going to be slowed...

With the UK having different travel restrictions to the rest of Europe, and only recently the rules being relaxed, I think the airline has had their feet burnt and reluctant to grow at the rates they were trying to a year ago.

For example their Cardiff base was postponed by a year.

At Luton their main UK operation, they are gradually restoring routes at quite a pace, but frequencies are quite reduced. Budapest use to see 4 return flights a day, that is currently 2 flights a day and Warsaw was 3-4 flights a day, that is currently 1-2 a day.

As far as I am aware, Wizz have not gained new slots at Luton, but managed to recently announce routes to Rome, Venice, Naples, Ljubljana, Odessa and a whole host of other destinations earlier in the year to Spain, Greece and Turkey. All squeezing them in within the current slots they have available.

Maybe that will mean Wizz will start already established routes to London from Gatwick and just spread the daily frequencies to airports both north and south of London?

[wesleyscott]

Air Transat launching Gatwick Quebec for 2022, once a week....wonder how that will play?

[pabely]

gdiddy

Yes & Yes, if you look at LTN schedules in S22 then back to 4 daily on some routes, on the Luton thread I'm sure some analysis will be made on how they can add so many new routes without extra LTN slots. But then again what is in the booking engine does not always reflect what will be flown.
I do expect as more gets flown from LGW then some trimming of LTN schedules will occur but then again new routes added. If they work, duplicate at LGW.

[Sotonsean]

Quebec is an amazingly beautiful city and very cosmopolitan with an obvious French influence and it's well worth the visit. Quebec has many attractions and it's also a fairly affluent city. I personally recommend Quebec as an alternative Canadian destination for those seeking somewhere different to visit in Canada. Hopefully this new connection by Air Transat between Quebec and London Gatwick will prove popular with inbound as well as outbound traffic. I'm sure a fly-drive will be popular amongst in-bound passengers as you could fly into Quebec and fly back from either Montreal or Toronto or vice versa.

[vectisman]

BA now actively recruiting management positions for the new Gatwick short haul subsidiary. Aim
is to start operations in Summer 2022.
By Summer 2022 I mean start of airline Summer timetables so probably late March 2022.

[WHBM]

wesleyscott

Is it just an intermediate stop on a flight to Montreal or Toronto, so not a full aircraft load - a common Air Transat approach.

[rog747]

All seem to be via a stop at YUL both outbound and inbound, some with rather long connex times - I cannot find any direct non-stops even in high season.

[Playamar2]

TSC492 Quebec to Gatwick (non-stop) from 11th May to 28th September. TSC728 is the Montreal to Gatwick flight (5 flights a week). Toronto flights are TSC122 and TSC282 (9 flights a week).

[WHBM]

A commercial approach on such new operations by semi-charter companies is to put the nonstops on sale (in this case from both Montreal and Quebec) on a given day of the week, and a limit of say half a planeload each for bookings. Knowing how the typical demand curve goes for bookings over time, you get to a point say four months beforehand, or as the 50% point comes close, and reassess whether to consolidate into one flight with a stop, or run the two separate ones, maybe consolidated for part of the season only. I'm sure TSC have their own way of doing it.

UK IT operators to the Mediterranean used to be experts at doing this.

[DaveReidUK]

Arrives LGW 11:20, departs (as TS493) 13:05, A321neo.

[Charley B]

Vokes55

Now to be a A380 from 10/12

[772]

great news!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I hear the biometrics for domestic flights are off due to COVID as BA are asking for ID checks at the gate, like easyJet. Hence given they both accept driving licences, are we now allowing free access to domestic flights to entrants with zero passport checks? Cos Flight Connections doesn't take you via the UK BORDER check? Am I missing something here?

[STN Ramp Rat]

I have traveled on 4 domestic sectors in the last three months and haven’t been asked for any form of ID at the gate on any sector.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Did you have your face scanned at the entrance to security and at the gate though?

[Flightrider]

Gatwick doesn't have scanning in place at present as there are no international transit passengers through North Terminal - that's the trigger why you have to have this for UK domestics.

[STN Ramp Rat]

Skipness One Foxtrot

not that I am aware of which of course does not mean it didn’t happen

[DaveReidUK]

I suspect that scanning your face without your active participation would be (a) technically difficult and (b) of dubious legality.

[davidjohnson6]

Scoot seem to be planning to fly between Gatwick and Bangkok...briefly in late Dec 2021, and then properly 3x weekly from late March 2022

[True Blue]

It is a Sin/Bkk routing and is on sale via their website.

[CabinCrewe]

Lets see if Scoot can do what Norwegian couldn't esp adding a notoriously low rent route (BKK).
Will need heavy promotion at UK end I would imagine for outbound ‘I thought Scoot was for washing dishes’
Singapore fares will need to be price conscious (which you’d expect Scoot will be) for a double drop when direct is available.
Major review sites don’t give this carrier great scores…
One to watch with interest.

[BA318]

Scoot seem to take a fairly cautious approach and have operated Berlin-Athens-Singapore for a while so I imagine they must know how double drops affect yields.

I flew them years ago from Sydney to Singapore and they were fine.

The prices look good. £600 premium economy seat return to Bangkok will do alright and the back end will be busy with families, Backpackers and students.

There is less competition now too. BA has gone seasonal to BKK and rumours it will drop it altogether.

[JW95]

davidjohnson6

This is very welcome news for LGW, especially given the recent spew of airline suspensions and downsizing of flights to the Far East. This will be the second recent attempt at LGW-SIN (albeit with the BKK stop), hopefully they will be able to succeed where Norwegian failed. I'm also wondering if BA will be watching this- the transfer of their BKK route from LHR to LGW has been flagged up several times, so it'll be interesting to see how/if they respond directly to Scoot at LGW, now that BA have signalled their intention that they remain committed to LGW. I'm also wondering (hopeful) that Scoot's entry to LGW might mark the beginning for other Asian carriers to take a look at LGW, now that travel is beginning to get back on its feet :) Certainly interesting times ahead for the airport!

[Vokes55]

I'm sure they'll get the bums on seats, but London to Bangkok is (pre-covid) one of the most competitive routes in the world with trashed yields to match. Not sure I'd be in a hurry to fly on a 329 seat 788 either. For comparison, Norwegian had 291 seats on their 788s, and TUI had 325 seats in an all economy short haul configuration for Summer pre-Covid.

A good addition for Gatwick though, I hope it works for them.

A few other dates for long haul restarts in the coming month or so:

13NOV: Punta Cana (TUI)
15NOV: Tampa (BA)
19NOV: Orlando (BA)
24NOV: Liberia (TUI)
25NOV: Puerto Vallarta (TUI)
09DEC: Doha, San Jose, Punta Cana (BA)
10DEC: Dubai (EK)
17DEC: Phuket (TUI)
18DEC: Goa (TUI)

[pabely]

Time to get South Terminal ready?

[772]

indeed, and they are

[JW95]

Good news! Very much looking forward to using the South Terminal again soon, and I’m sure that BA are looking forward to reinstating their operations there along with the airlines usually based here. Any indication as to when the terminal is (tentatively) planned to be reopened?

[Rutan16]

Why would you say that BA NEVER wanted to go back in to South in the first place

[wallp]

A very positive announcement for Gatwick. With demand for holiday destinations recovering more quickly, hopefully Scoot can make a success of these routes from Gatwick.

[wallp]

When is the South Terminal likely to re-open, in time for the start of the summer schedules in March?

[nguba]

BA have their own check-in areas and Club / First lounges in the South Terminal - I presume they'd want these back open?

[JW95]

Rutan16

If you're referring to the time pre 2017 airline move, then your point is understandable, as I remember from an LGW documentary showing BA's big investment into their North Terminal check in and bag drop zone. However, things have moved on quite a bit since then, and BA now have a very nice check in zone in the South Terminal that strikes me as being larger than their previous home in the North Terminal, along with their lounges which have been generally well received by passengers. Plus, their branding presence (at least pre-Covid) in the South Terminal made the terminal feel more "home" to them in a way that North never was, given the rise of EZY operations there. So I'm sure that BA (as well as passengers alike) are eagerly looking forward to the South reopening, and hopefully soon :)

[772]

moving North to South was never on BA’s radar nor something they ever aspired towards.

EZY combining their operations into one terminal caused it to happen. North was the only terminal that could accommodate EZY and in turn no room for both BA and EZY in the North.

BA have made a good fist of it and as mentioned above I think it feels from like home than the North ever did, lovely lounges too. Big sweeteners were offered by GAL to BA as part of the move.

in my view, looking back, the move was a good move for BA, even though it’s not one they ever wanted or planned for.

[772]

wallp

nothing set in stone but the wheels are in motion

[Rutan16]

Those big bribes were absolutely necessary . BA had no incentive to mix with the plebs otherwise !

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Boeing has just announced that it is going to add a B737-800 freighter conversion line to its Gatwick MRO facility in 2022.

[CabinCrewe]

Thats great investment. Good to diversify.

[JW95]

The Times is reporting that VS is considering returning to LGW as early as S22, on the back of a surge in demand for travel between London-USA. The article reports that VS have confirmed that the case of LGW resumption "is a case of when and not if". I'm just wondering how likely this is? If they are planning on returning to LGW, I'm guessing the first routes to transfer down from LHR would be MCO along with the Caribbean flying programme that was historically based at LGW, in order to free up slots at LHR? I wonder what a/c they'd operate from LGW if they do make a come back?

[brian_dromey]

I think you are exactly right. My guess would be the new leisure configuration A350s, which are coming from December. There are supposed to be 5 of them in total, essentially a 1:1 replacement for the 747s. Expect A330s to feature as well. The leisure configuration A350s are starting out on MCO and then going to the Caribbean from next year.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Sounds like a reminder to HAL not to jack up the fees too high. BA will be saying the same.
Pre COVID VS were 5-6 daily B744/A330 but they're a smaller airline now trying to hang onto their existing LHR slot portfolio.
Now do know if the Virgin Lounge is still in situ as was or was it stripped out?

[davidjohnson6]

Will HAL really care if Sir Beardie throws his toys out of the pram and has a tantrum on TV ? They've got CAA clearance to raise their fees, and if a modest number of Disney flights go to Gatwick, will it really be that big a loss compared to being able to charge big bucks to everyone else ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Well when the whole industry is on it's knees and HAL is trying to pay for a massive infrastructure expansion, suddenly LGW looks a lot more attractive. As I said, British Airways aren't going to be happy either which IMHO explains their determination to maintain short haul at LGW. And as you well know, it's not SRB calling the operational day to day shots anymore at VS.

[JW95]

brian_dromey

Second you, It certainly would make strategic sense to allocate the leisure-heavy A350s to LGW (as originally intended for direct 744 replacements) for the MCO services. Plus some of the A333s could be stationed to do the thinner Caribbean flying, as the last two A330-200s are on their way out. After all the blows LGW has taken over the last 2 years, it would be lovely to see VS back at LGW. Their (potential) return to Gatwick is now being reported elsewhere on other sites, so perhaps indicates a decision will be made shortly? I suspect a lot of this is being driven by slot utilisation rules possibly reverting back to pre-Covid measures for S22, along with fees being hiked up at LHR. For an airline that narrowly avoided bankruptcy, perhaps the decision to reinstate their LGW base for leisure routes will be a good one going forward. No doubt GIP will be thrilled with this!

[WHBM]

Skipness One Foxtrot

What massive infrastructure expansion at Heathrow ? No new runway, T1 derelict, T4 uncertain whether it's to be mothballed long term or not ... the only massive expansion is in the scooping up of the landing charges by the Spanish investors.

[Serenity]

So Virgin business at LHR and leisure routes at LGW.

Again !

Shame they :mad: on all their LGW staff and numerous crew in the interlude.

[772]

Quite, they aren’t alone.

we (could) end up for summer 22 with some VS leisure, BA longhaul and short haul at LGW all looking quite similar to 2019

[Charley B]

Yes that would be really good for LGW

Emirates back to 3 flights a day too would be good 😉

Maybe the increased LHR landing fees will send a few more airlines here

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

WHBM

T1's closed it's not derelict. The piers 3 and 4 have been demolished as has the EuroPier, it's not exactly Gaza. You really think LHR won't be at capacity by the end of next summer? You genuinely think this madness is going to drag onto the three year mark? Runway 3 has passed the Supreme Court, so now it's a funding matter and the local planning permission saga. As for T4 being closed long term, with traffic being forecast to bounce back to the extent Virgin need to re-open LGW as they'll be using their LHR portfolio to it's full extent, I'm not so sure. Huge pent up demand and many people sitting on cash mountains having no commute to pay for means travel will snap back with a vengeance. The balance sheets will all take longer to recover!

And if HAL do ramp up fees, then weakened carriers may have no option but to move to LGW. In every crisis lies opportunity!

[vectisman]

I agree that if LHR do ramp up fees some LHR airlines will find Gatwick more competitive. In the medium term BA Gatwick long haul may be back to 15 based 777s, especially if Virgin do return and others give Gatwick a try.

[FRatSTN]

Don't forget STN and LTN still exist too. Whilst LGW is the next obvious go to after LHR, all the airports will be pitching for potential new and switching carriers I'm sure.

One thing is for sure and that's the airports are going to have to be ruthlessly competitive with one another, at least they ought to be if they want a chance of building back business.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/110157-norse-atlantic-may-have-to-settle-for-london-stansted
Looks like Norse Atlantic may end up at Stansted!
Would it not be in Gatwick's commercial best interests to make this happen for Norse? Am not an expert on slot allocation (or anything frankly!) but how much leeway does an airport operator have here?

[TartinTon]

Pretty much none as the slots are dished out by their contracted partner ACL who have rules and governance around being seen to be squeaky clean in their application.