QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

[dr dre]

Tel****all has some type of agenda here. Which isn’t to the benefit of the individuals concerned nor what the company line is.

One could almost bet that he works for a startup or a company that’s in competition and is trying to scare people into making irrational decision to interrupt a fast ramp up.

I doubt it. Whether people are on stand down, have taken LWOP or have been made CR (which won’t be happening) if QF decide they need to ramp up quickly and make the call to come back to work, all 3 of those groups will flock back faster than a speeding bullet.

Qantas is unique. It can hang on to it’s resources, ride out the storm and ramp up very quickly with those resources on short notice. The international competition will need years to achieve the same.

Maybe, but the International competitors have the advantage of mostly being government funded and can ramp up operations initially even if they aren’t profitable. It is a bit of a concern to see Qatar for instance still operating to Australia on regular schedules throughout this time.

[Blueskymine]

I doubt it. Whether people are on stand down, have taken LWOP or have been made CR (which won’t be happening) if QF decide they need to ramp up quickly and make the call to come back to work, all 3 of those groups will flock back faster than a speeding bullet.



Maybe, but the International competitors have the advantage of mostly being government funded and can ramp up operations initially even if they aren’t profitable. It is a bit of a concern to see Qatar for instance still operating to Australia on regular schedules throughout this time.

How quickly do you think expat airlines can recall 1000s of pilots from all corners of the world, plus cabin crew, get them current and get them going, while competing with the others that want them?

Qantas won’t have that problem.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

I think people will be staying SOs for many years , definitely over 5 years maybe approaching 10.
How is it you know what promotion rates will be post - pandemic in long haul
How is it that you know what promotion rates will be?
:rolleyes:

[Green.Dot]

Not to mention global recession , I think people will be staying SOs for many years , definitely over 5 years maybe approaching 10.

Mate- you are nothing but a noxious weed on this forum.

My guess is your business/livelihood has benefited from this mess? Half your luck, but don’t come on here getting glee out of telling everyone how messed up our industry is (I think we know that). And FFS don’t make up CR figures you have no idea about.

It is obvious you don’t work for Qantas in fact I doubt you are a pilot in the industry so stop posting crap on here for personal gain.

As for your comments of time in rank as an SO, I very much doubt that, but if COVID continues to “surprise” then I’ll be thankful being an SO for 10 years. It beats stacking shelves.

Right that’s it, I’ve sprayed my bit of Roundup. Consider taking some of it in.

[FightDeck]

There is so much scaremongering and incorrect understanding of the agreement and laws. Embarrassing really.
As a result 260 pilots have taken LWOP and the company never had any intention of making anyone CR. They have said they do not want to pay for it and then have to rehire people anyway.
190 are taking VR and around 60 pilots will be over 65 this year.
Roughly 500 pilots are off the books. That is a very large section of the pilot body. That would have to be about 30% of Long Haul.

[Keg]

5 LH pilots turned 65 post stand down and are still on seniority list as at 13 July- jobkeeper I presume? There are another four who have turned 65 since 13 July up to today’s date.
There are 55 LH pilots who are in the ER zone of turning 65 between todays date and prior to 1 Jul 22.
188 LH pilots requested VR.
260 Pilots in total (not sure LH/SH break down) on LWOP.

That’s 500+ pilots. Nearly 25% of the total pilot workforce. If 90% of the LWOP applicants were LH then it’s about 1/3 of LH pilots that will be off the books.

[Street garbage]

Telfer, please consider this- I would rather be on A350 S/o pay than stacking shelves at Coles, which are lot of us have had to revert to.
Could you and your BS agenda please go away, we come to the forum to have a robust discussion, not have to read your FUD.
As for your AIPA bashing, what would you have done differently in negotiations? Started PIA when there was no flying? Have a talk to any JQ pilot (oh, that's right, your not in the industry) and see what's happening in an open EA.
Go away mate, you are just embarrassing yourself now.

[C441]

5 LH pilots turned 65 post stand down and are still on seniority list as at 13 July- jobkeeper I presume? There are another four who have turned 65 since 13 July up to today’s date.
There are 55 LH pilots who are in the ER zone of turning 65 between todays date and prior to 1 Jul 22.

Could it be that those who are 65+ can't be forced into retirement due to the rostering limitations brought about by another country's regulations regarding operating over age 65, when there actually is no international flying? To force them into retirement would appear discriminatory when those under 65 (other than some 330 pilots) aren't flying outside Australia either.

[theheadmaster]

C441, I have heard that argument a few times, but in my view it is a conflation of two different issues. One issue is the inherent requirements of the job, the other issue is the trigger for stand down. I do not believe there is an issue with unlawful age discrimination.

[flyingfrenchman]

Could it be that those who are 65+ can't be forced into retirement due to the rostering limitations brought about by another country's regulations regarding operating over age 65, when there actually is no international flying? To force them into retirement would appear discriminatory when those under 65 (other than some 330 pilots) aren't flying outside Australia either.

Under already unfortunate circumstances what a way to finish a long career, scraping every last cent as you go out the door having lived the golden era of aviation and conditions, LH commands in their 20s and 30s with large super balances.

Not to mention the moral side that we now have 260 odd pilots at the beginning/middle of their career trying to set themselves and families up taking LWOP for long terms.

Maybe it’s time to acknowledge a bloody good run, not sweep up every last cent or lower themselves to bid for the 737 that they would never have dreamed of doing until they hit 65.

[OzSync]

Under already unfortunate circumstances what a way to finish a long career, scraping every last cent as you go out the door having lived the golden era of aviation and conditions, LH commands in their 20s and 30s with large super balances.

Sadly I don’t even think they will blink.

[Obie]

Unfortunately, history shows that when the younger pilots reach the same age they will do exactly the same thing!

[maggot]

Unfortunately, history shows that when the younger pilots reach the same age they will do exactly the same thing!
we'll still be FOs instead of 30yr capts

[Obie]

we'll still be FOs instead of 30yr capts

...and that is what they said when they were your age!

[maggot]

...and that is what they said when they were your age!
at 20yrs in?
yeah, nah.

[Street garbage]

...and that is what they said when they were your age!
What rubbish. Before the pandemic, it was around 22 years until SH command. Before the lost decade- 2008-2018- it was 12 years.
I not going to get to get stuck in, but empathy was not a quality I saw a lot of in my time on the 4 engine fleets.
This thread had the highest BS factor of all time on Pprune- which really says something.

[Keg]

...and that is what they said when they were your age!

Of the five that we are talking about, the most junior joined in January ‘87, the others in 85/86 aged about 30. They were Captains* in under a decade. The last 23-25 years in wide body commands.

The youngest wide body line Captain today? 48. Initial command after 23 years.

(*Had they wanted it).

[Ragnor]

The lost decade really!!! wait until end of the year you will lose a lot more than a decade. AJ has a plan to remain "competitive" with the leaner VA.

[Street garbage]

The lost decade really!!! wait until end of the year you will lose a lot more than a decade. AJ has a plan to remain "competitive" with the leaner VA.
So, Ragnor, you are obviously a board member or a mate of Mr Joyce, please enlighten us with the your wisdom of our future.
FUD..

[Blueskymine]

The lost decade really!!! wait until end of the year you will lose a lot more than a decade. AJ has a plan to remain "competitive" with the leaner VA.

No doubt, which will involve increasing market share.

You don’t do that by parking jets, you do that by flying them. Hence I guess why the 717s have been redeployed.

[Ragnor]

AJ has already said that we will have to remain competitive with what ever come of VA which will be known very soon. Came from his mouth a month ago on a town hall have a listen. I'm sure a increase in market share will be attempted but there is also few new players arising from the ashes of covid.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

AJ has already said that we will have to remain competitive with what ever come of VA which will be known very soon. Came from his mouth a month ago on a town hall have a listen. I'm sure a increase in market share will be attempted but there is also few new players arising from the ashes of covid.

AJ is on record saying he expects QF Group to have 70% domestic market share post pandemic.

This has also been admitted by Paul Scurrah at the recent CAPA conference, where he said they would be exiting unprofitable routes and reducing market share.

https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-to-scrap-for-less-than-a-third-of-the-domestic-market-20200902-p55rl5

[Ragnor]

Well I’m hopeful that 70% does come to fruition.

Will the punters have money to spend on air travel especially in Victoria the landscape has changed.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Well I’m hopeful that 70% does come to fruition.

Will the punters have money to spend on air travel especially in Victoria the landscape has changed.

Perhaps a travel voucher system (such as Tasmania) will help kick start the domestic tourism economy post pandemic.

Household saving has increased to 19.8% up from 6%. Yes there are those that have lost their jobs, but those that haven't have been stuck at home for the best part of a year and have cash to burn.

Given we are in the aviation industry we probably have a skewed view of the doom and gloom as we all personally know dozens of people that have lost their jobs, but there are many industries which have not been nearly as affected.

[Blueskymine]

Well I’m hopeful that 70% does come to fruition.

Will the punters have money to spend on air travel especially in Victoria the landscape has changed.

Just also be very mindful that that extra market share is at the expensive of someone else’s livelihood.

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.

[ShandywithSugar]

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.

and took a job at Virgin Blue by moral choice? Oh boy oh boy this is too good where's the Michael Jackson gif eating popcorn.

[34R]

Ba ha ha.... yes.. I was thinking the same thing


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x220/ohdear_43869bdc5a2c64bd01fe831927b6690772d792b2.gif

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Just also be very mindful that that extra market share is at the expensive of someone else’s livelihood.

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.

Funny.....funny stuff

[Green.Dot]

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.

Lol, I just took the first job that came up. That just happened to be Qantas.

[das Uber Soldat]

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.
hahahahahaha.

Jesus christ.

[Middle.Marker]

A real salt of the earth operator

[Buster Hyman]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x165/tenor_b03fbf68c4ba702b46040fac5323ce061168593a.gif

[oldm8ey]

Just also be very mindful that that extra market share is at the expensive of someone else’s livelihood.

Many of those effected would have been ideal candidates for Qantas, but took a moral stance on the options available at the time regarding the low cost operation which was hiring.

I had to read that several times to try and wrap my head around it. I still don't get it.

[Chad Gates]

I'm with you old mate. I don't get what he's talking about.

[Progress Wanchai]

Perhaps a travel voucher system (such as Tasmania) will help kick start the domestic tourism economy post pandemic.

Household saving has increased to 19.8% up from 6%. Yes there are those that have lost their jobs, but those that haven't have been stuck at home for the best part of a year and have cash to burn.

Given we are in the aviation industry we probably have a skewed view of the doom and gloom as we all personally know dozens of people that have lost their jobs, but there are many industries which have not been nearly as affected.

Been through many recessions?

Despite the few extra dollars being squirrelled away Australian households are still the second most indebted in the world. The margin calls on mortgages and the downward drag on wages takes years to really have an impact. Those few extra dollars saved either as a result of government policy or prudent spending shouldn’t be used on discretionary expenditure.
Sure, the government will encourage you to spend and even borrow in an attempt to kick the can even further down the road, and they may even be successful. Briefly.

Borrowing, whether by individuals or governments, is simply spending tomorrow’s money today. Eventually we have to transition into a tomorrow that has less money as yesterday spent a lot of it.

[maggot]

Margin calls on residentual mortgages?

now thats now FUD

the prohets of doom love this ****

[Progress Wanchai]

Margin calls on residentual mortgages?

now thats now FUD

the prohets of doom love this ****

Depends on the currency the loan was in ;)
Previously an adverse currency movement could be offset by a higher property valuation, but if valuations fall then that’s not possible.

Sure this won’t affect many, just as unemployment won’t affect many, but the knock on consequences can affect everyone. America’s subprime issue only affected a small proportion of borrowers who had used increased valuations to stay above water as interest rates changed, but it had repercussions that went further than the affected borrowers.

My point being that’s it’s probably prudent that the second most indebted households in the world actually do start to save and pay off debt. It had to happen at some stage.
Stating that capitalism is alive and well and going through one of its inevitable cycles is hardly forecasting doomsday, although perhaps it might feel like it for some who have only ever seen one side of the capitalist system coin.

[Transition Layer]

Has anyone checked with normanton if 260 takers for LWOP was enough?

The way he/she was carrying on about every SO taking it, I would have thought the number of applicants was closer to 4 or 500!

[Turnleft080]

Qantas thinking moving out of Mascot base to Western Sydney. The ever changing face of Australian aviation.
If you said that this time last year, standard answer, what the hell are you smoking!

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-mulls-moving-sydney-head-office-interstate-20200915-p55vq2.html

[Keg]

Depends on the headline. Some of the headlines talk about moving out of SYD for MEL. I bet the headlines in MEL are for JQ to move to SYD.

It’s all about trying to gouge the various state governments (and perhaps even local councils) for some $$$. I wouldn’t write off the possibility that the QF training center in SYD will still go ahead.

[neville_nobody]

These kind of moves rarely happen as all those in the upper echelons have no interest in actually living in Western Sydney or commuting for 3 hours a day from the Eastern Suburbs or North Shore. They might move some operational sections to Western Sydney but the main departments in HQ will remain where they are or end up in the CBD.

Not forgetting the several large businesses in recent years who have nearly blown up because they decided to move HQ only to see all their staff resign as they didn't want to commute or move interstate.

[hoss]

Half of QF live in the shire, how on earth will this work?

[Potsie Weber]

Not forgetting the several large businesses in recent years who have nearly blown up because they decided to move HQ only to see all their staff resign as they didn't want to commute or move interstate.

Pretty sure that would be part of the reason to move out west, resignations are cheaper than redundancy.

[Ragnor]

This would makes sense really if QF could get a premium price of office space have JQ, QF under the one roof one stop shop for group CEO. Western SY will be a big airport.

[Derfred]

Virgin got $200M to keep their office in Brisbane.

Alan is just wondering where his $200M is.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

AFR @ https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-mulls-move-from-mascot-20200915-p55vsz

SMH @ https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/joyce-looks-to-pit-state-against-state-for-juicy-prize-of-qantas-hq-20200915-p55vv6.html

Simon Hickey (ex QF) to roll out the red carpet...

This will be interesting. They'll need to factor in the cost of people relocation too... It would want to be a tangible incentive to move state. WS seems more likely with JQ relocation expense.

[Wingspar]

Didn’t QF just a few years ago have a risk assessment done of their Sydney operations? Wasn’t the result a decentralisation of operations so that no one localised event would effectively shut the airline down?
Now they want to put everything back together again?
Anyway today’s announcement good PR for no cost.

[ANstar]

Didn’t QF just a few years ago have a risk assessment done of their Sydney operations? Wasn’t the result a decentralisation of operations so that no one localised event would effectively shut the airline down?
Now they want to put everything back together again?
Anyway today’s announcement good PR for no cost.

I think COVID has taught them you can run an airline from home... So if the "one site" was offline for a period of time which it has been already this year - you have BC plan to work from home as long as you have access to the data and systems which would not be "one site"

[Turnleft080]

I think COVID has taught them you can run an airline from home... So if the "one site" was offline for a period of time which it has been already this year - you have BC plan to work from home as long as you have access to the data and systems which would not be "one site"
Same can be said for a lot of other big businesses that will do zoom instead of hopping up front of an aircraft.

[Telfer86]

Was interesting to listen to a podcast on Australian Aviation a talkative fellow who said he had something to do with AIPA
was espousing their brilliance getting both pilot agreements done. Think it must have been the worst ever deal, airline was already
shut down, redundancies almost certain & AIPA let a deal go through where redundant pilots at best might find themselves on year 1 of current scale
, at worst year 1 of B scale upon re-employment. That could easily be a seven figure decrease to career earnings, was just missed completely

Still pushing party line, - surplus of 220 only (why is that the magic number , there is no international), & trying to get PilotKeeper approved where he
believes QF group pilots will get wage top up by Fed Govt . Very interesting ideas

[wheels_down]

I assume they would build in Williams Landing in Melbourne, or take over Target’s new office who are looking at leasing it to someone else.

[patty50]

Virgin got $200M to keep their office in Brisbane.

Alan is just wondering where his $200M is.

Dandrews has plenty on his plate as is but has found time to sharpen his pencil for a Qantas handout. He should be more worried about keeping the jobs that are already in Melbourne.

The furthest the HQ would move is circular quay.

[-41]

Telfer86 Yeah not as interesting as your obsession with what Scale someone else gets paid.

[Ducksnuts]

Yes Telfer, it's all the fault of Aipa, they should have seen this whole situation all along. I would be happy with CR and start back on the lower scale, it's better than the work I am doing now to keep a roof over my head and my two kids fed. Then again, we really should have all voted down that EBA and put you in charge of negotiations. We would be in a much better position now. Looking forward to your nomination to work on the union.

[Beer Baron]

Think it must have been the worst ever deal
Oh yeah, getting a 6% pay rise in the current environment is the ‘worst deal ever’ :rolleyes:

The downside you refer to would only occur IF there are pilots made compulsory redundant and IF Qantas order the A350 before they return. According to Qantas, for the time being, both of those things aren’t happening.

The only thing that is certain is when a pilot does fly or does use leave they will be paid 6% more than before AIPA signed the ‘worst deal ever’.

[Telfer86]

Not correct it's not "if & if" its back to year 1 regardless the only variable is current scale or new B scale which got voted up after shutdown

People seem to get very agitated & defensive about this , I just thought it was a very big blunder, voting in a B scale when a global pandemic
had been declared & international airlines shutdown

At least I don't have an obsession on numbers of flight crew turning 65 & pressuring them to retire. Likely a lot of senior LH will move to SH if any vacancies advertised

What size & shape do people think QF will be in a few years, especially international ? What will the plan be ?

Where do you see QF flying to OS say 12 months from now ? & what do you think the airfares will be ?

[Street garbage]

Let it goTelfer, or just go away, you are just embarrassing yourself here, if I get CR'd, I would rather be first year A350/ B787 pay than earning $20 an hour stacking shelves.
188 are taking VR, 260 are on LWOP, yet you keep banging about 220 and something that even hasn't happened yet. Jog on...

[Keg]

The ‘ignore list’ is awesome. You never have to read Telfer’s rantings again!

[Telfer86]

Maybe you would for six months after re-employment , but think most would be whinging very quickly when they saw the other SO next to them
who just dodged CR getting paid at least 50% more

Was more interested in where people saw the airline a couple of years out from here & where airfares will be at

[Street garbage]

Maybe you would for six months after re-employment , but think most would be whinging very quickly when they saw the other SO next to them
who just dodged CR getting paid at least 50% more

Was more interested in where people saw the airline a couple of years out from here & where airfares will be at

The only thing you are interested in is spreading FUD.
You need to pick up the phone and ring AIPA, but you won't, because you are probably not a member, happy to save your 0.88% and chuck rocks at those who volunteer to give their time to better YOUR entitlements.
Get over mate, read up and see how little people give a toss about YOUR obsession.
PS: You are now on my ignore list

[OBNO]

Telfer, Is it clear to you yet no one seem to give a rats-arse of your ramblings.

[Ducksnuts]

Norm is back under a different handle I suspect. My remotely possibe pay cut Telfer is offset by the CR payout in my case, hence I made the decision I did. If your CR payout wouldn't offset the risks, then glad you made the decision you did. Just stop blaming everyone else. Is it a great choice for anyone? No. We all want what we had.

If at worst I have to come back on a lower pay scale, then so be it. Still beats what I am doing now. I am flogging myself just to put food on the table for my kids. Should I join you and spend my precious remaining free time on here apportioning blame for my predicament?

This whole scenario is a mess, nobody saw it coming.

The best lesson to learn is that life isn't fair. Adapt and survive.

[FightDeck]

The lower rates would only apply to SOs and it’s very unlikely that Telfer is correct. Qantas are running out of threats.
He’s a company mole or most likely some pilot hating HR tool. Always surprises me why people who hate pilots so much do such a job.
AIPA and it’s pilot’s have a signed and sealed EBA. One that was authorised by fair work DURING the pandemic at the insistence of Qantas as Telfer suggests. Look at the TWU ground staff or Jetstar pilots that don’t have an EBA locked in.
Telfer is annoyed that it is signed and sealed and can’t be f&$#@ed with unless pilots are stupid enough to open it up and get shafted.
It’s unlikely that pilots agree to a variation. I think a team of Qantas lawyers will look to take advantage of pilots if they are silly enough to
open an EBA. Ask any decent lawyer and they will tell you not to open up or vary an EA in this environment.
If pilots agree to a variation by opening the EBA and Qantas end up legally shafting everyone, then Telfer will be calling everyone an idiot for not seeing it coming.
On this Issue we will find ourselves in agreement. You can’t have it both ways champ.

[normanton]

Don't worry Ducksnuts, I'm still here - just been busy working!

Is 260 on LWOP enough? I hope so, but according to the departed Tino it's not. No vaccine found in the next 6-12 months will probably result in Allan doing another 'fleet review'. That's when **** will hit the fan for redundancy's.

The VR/ER lawsuit appears to be a problem. If those pilots who can't let go of the golden goose turn out to be successful Qantas may just pull the pin on the entire operation. "We looked at VR as per the EBA requirements. Sorry it didn't work out, we are now commencing CR".

I remember Tino saying in a webinar that if Qantas got desperate they have a lot of commercial real estate and offices they can juggle. Yesterdays news from Venessa shows just how bad the situation is becoming. I'm sure Allan just wants a $200m slice of the pie from the QLD government.

[CaptCloudbuster]

The narrative is changing (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/joyce-looks-to-pit-state-against-state-for-juicy-prize-of-qantas-hq-20200915-p55vv6.html)

There is also a good chance that several of the aircraft type, such as the A380s won’t have much (if any) place in the post-COVID Qantas line up. It would be unsurprising to see a larger number of international pilots made redundant before the airline resumes normal services.

And Joyce is no stranger to playing industrial relations hardball. He did so in order to get a 30 per cent productivity lift when introducing direct flights from Perth to London and again on the Sunrise project to fly direct from Sydney and Melbourne to London, Paris and New York.

Additionally, chatter indicating 180 day recency issues and promised “stand up” in turn being re-evaluated highlighted on Qrewroom.

[SandyPalms]

Just like seniority, there will be winners and losers. Ces’t la vie.

[ruprecht]

So normanton, how much LWOP did you take?

[Wingspar]

The narrative is changing (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/joyce-looks-to-pit-state-against-state-for-juicy-prize-of-qantas-hq-20200915-p55vv6.html)



Additionally, chatter indicating 180 day recency issues and promised “stand up” in turn being re-evaluated highlighted on Qrewroom.

The 180 day training issue is a cost to the company so needs approval from higher up. I believe Flt Ops are putting a very strong case to do this training bearing in mind the potential bottle neck if they don’t when demand ramps up. It’s not a one way street. If QF wants LH pilots to vote the EA variations up then they must give something back in return, whatever it is. I would suggest that LH pilots do have some negotiating power and the very least is to keep post 180 day training going.

[CaptCloudbuster]

No just a LH issue. Some in SH in MEL are looking at 180 day recency too. I take on board your comments however. My view is as the border shutdowns continue unabated and we continue to see 15-20% Domestic rather than 70% Flight Ops won’t have a say in the matter.

[Chris2303]

The narrative is changing (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/joyce-looks-to-pit-state-against-state-for-juicy-prize-of-qantas-hq-20200915-p55vv6.html)



Additionally, chatter indicating 180 day recency issues and promised “stand up” in turn being re-evaluated highlighted on Qrewroom.

If I were the Northern Territory Government I'd offer $500m conditional on the operation based at Tennant Creek!

[Buster Hyman]

Clearly, the real estate review is not the most important matter at hand. What about those beards eh? :ugh:

[DirectAnywhere]

No just a LH issue. Some in SH in MEL are looking at 180 day recency too. I take on board your comments however. My view is as the border shutdowns continue unabated and we continue to see 15-20% Domestic rather than 70% Flight Ops won’t have a say in the matter.

I don't really care about 180 day recency. If QF decide to save money short term, it will cost them time and money in the longer term. It's up to them to assess and balance the risks. If there is a sudden upswing in flying out of Melbourne and Sydney (unlikely, I reckon) then they MIGHT get caught with their pants down - meh, their call. I've got enough to worry about without wondering whether my 180 day recency will lapse and if QF will have the time, money and training resources to fix the problem expeditiously on the other side.

[C441]

Is 260 on LWOP enough?………..
…………..The VR/ER lawsuit appears to be a problem.
Second quote first.
A close colleague spoke with a manager in the last few days. It seems the hold-up in processing the VR is not with the older cohort's claim but with a particular group who applied for VR but can't be replaced in the short term.

With that in mind, maybe 260 taking LWOP is enough (for now) and VR will be withdrawn or allowed to lapse on Nov 7th, possibly to be reviewed at a later date. The CP did mention a number of times yesterday that retaining cash is the imperative whilst domestic borders remain closed.

[maggot]

Which particular cohort may that be? 330 t&cs at a guess....
how does that hold things up

[Wingspar]

Even the 400 crew who realise that they’ve had their last flight can’t leave.
’Hotel California’ again!

[dr dre]

Even the 400 crew who realise that they’ve had their last flight can’t leave.
’Hotel California’ again!

“Can’t” leave? As far as I know indentured servitude is illegal in Australia, any pilot employed by any company can leave at any time with the minimum notice period.

[SixDemonBag]

“Can’t” leave? As far as I know indentured servitude is illegal in Australia, any pilot employed by any company can leave at any time with the minimum notice period.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/350x480/giphy_933a8b17259eea9d7730cf7fac06812f123ffb3c.gif

[Poto]

Second quote first.
A close colleague spoke with a manager in the last few days. It seems the hold-up in processing the VR is not with the older cohort's claim but with a particular group who applied for VR but can't be replaced in the short term. bc

That doesn’t stack up. The Entire airline is in surplus.
Being a targeted program, the B744 applicants should have been out the door immediately.

[C441]

A cynic (what!, on Pprune?) might suggest that the company has followed the requirements of EA10 15.10.1:

Subject to this Agreement, the Company will manage all necessary pilot reductions in a manner aimed at minimising the need for compulsory redundancies by considering all reasonable alternatives, including natural attrition, LWOP, voluntary redeployment, voluntary secondment and voluntary redundancies.

They've considered VR, even sought EoIs, decided it's not for them, and will now move on to CRs………Let's hope not.

Personally, I'm not that cynical and suspect VRs will go ahead eventually but there is some (probably financial) advantage in lumping all 188 applicants together.

[Keg]

I too wondered about the timing and figured that they could have let go of the 747 crew who had EOI’d the VR about a week after the applications closed. For whatever reason they’ve decided to do them all together.

I still reckon they’ll accept most/ all of those who have EOI’d. Even those in categories they’re possibly worried about replacing in the short term are likely to still be accepted though the timing for their departure may vary from everyone else.

Having offered VR, I reckon they’d get absolutely nailed if they said ‘no’ some of it and then went down the road of CR instead.

[Transition Layer]

Re: 180 day recency issues

Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:

The JobKeeper Payment will support employers to maintain their connection to their employees.
These connections will enable business to reactivate their operations quickly — without having to rehire staff — when the crisis is over.

Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?

[Wingspar]

Re: 180 day recency issues

Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:



Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?

Very good point!

[CaptCloudbuster]

^^^^^^. +1 :ok:

[Koizi]

Re: 180 day recency issues

Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:



Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?

Pocketing it how?
The money we receive each fortnight wouldn't be paid without JobKeeper, unless I'm missing something?

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Re: 180 day recency issues

Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:



Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?
​​​​​​
Mmmmm......Qantas get $1500 per fortnight from Scomo on my behalf. Qantas then pay me $1500 per fortnight whilst I am stood down.

Pretty pedestrian stuff at this point in the game.

[Keg]

I think the point being made that perhaps QF should have been rostering crew for a sim every 4 weeks and for the jobkeeper to contribute towards paying for that sim.

Jobkeeper would certainly cover the costs for any F/O to do 1 sim a fortnight. It wouldn’t quite cover the cost for a Captain. Of course it definitely wouldn’t cover the costs of the TREs, TRIs and sim instructors required to keep everyone doing a sim every month.

I suspect too there may have been some IR issues around whether a sim a month constitutes ‘useful work’. Personally I reckon it does but I’m not the legal beagle making the decision. Of course many crew may have also not been thrilled to be rostered for a sim every four weeks if they have other work and so on.

[Transition Layer]

Pocketing it how?
The money we receive each fortnight wouldn't be paid without JobKeeper, unless I'm missing something?
There’s no costs to the company in us sitting at home getting $1500. If we were kept recent, there would be a cost to the company and yet we would still be paid $1500. Therefore Qantas has a relative win by having us do nothing.

[Derfred]

During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.

Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.

Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?

[Transition Layer]

During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.

Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.

Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
It’s not, I agree with you! But the 180 day issue that the company is facing, with only a small amount of pilots current, wouldn’t be rearing it’s ugly head if JobKeeper had been used as it was intended.

[galdian]

During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.

Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.

Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?

It amazes me that with all the **** happening around the world in airlines the positivity of certain people in saying things like "..even if it costs more later."

Qantas is not that special - there may not BE a "later".

If there is a later then the management of QF may have to decimate QF (and yes, "never waste a good crisis" mentality from management) to survive until "later"; that will include the pilot group.

Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
The ramifications of CV19 on air travel are ongoing, unknown and is perilous particularly to international carriers, domestic ops around the world arguably will return faster.
Crossover areas (EU requirements/controls Vs individual states preferences) - anyones guess how to satisfy (or not) everyone.

I DO believe QF will survive - but the next couple of years may see a bloodbath to achieve their survival.

For individuals to automatically assume no hassles for QF when so much ongoing carnage in aviation around the world - gutsy call, hope you're proven correct. :ok:

Cheers.

[Gazza mate]

Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap.

Im not sure what this proves. Are you saying Qantas is ahead of the game because it already has zero expats?

[Poto]

Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
Neither Country has Stand down provisions. The Japs have to pay 60% of salary to Furloughed employees

[galdian]

Apologies if badly phrased.

Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.

Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.

I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.

Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

These connections will enable business to reactivate their operations quickly — without having to rehire staff — when the crisis is over.
Nothing to do with re-training.

[Transition Layer]

Nothing to do with re-training.
Hmm...fair point. I was focusing more on the concept of “reactivating operations” and “maintain the connection with employees”.

Aviation is fairly unique in that it involves long lead in training times, so it’s not as simple as just rehiring staff.

[maggot]

Apologies if badly phrased.

Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.

Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.

I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.

Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
they have determined, *at this stage*, that a reduction in crew numbers of about 190 plus coming (large) natural attrition will right size them for the future.
thats about a 15% reduction in LH crew numbers to start, bearing in mind we've been short for yonks.

also all remaining crew being stood down only costing leave accrual so about a 90% pay cut thus its easier to justify not making a bunch redundant with associated (substantial) costs.

Many/most(?) Other airlines dont have this option available to them.

thats the current state of play at least.

[knobbycobby]

Yes Maggot.
Qantas pilots are some of the worst off globally during COVID. I think only Finnair is as bad talking to a CPT recently.
Stand down is exceptionally favourable for Qantas but unfavourable to Pilots.
Most countries laws require between 50-80% of salary even if not flying. 188 pilots are leaving via CR. 280 have taken LWOP for years.
Around another 60-80 will be over retirement age when flying returns.
It’s roughly 30-35% of the pilot body that will not be around the next few years. In line with most pilot layoffs around the world
Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year. If you look at the 787 flight to nowhere it sold out in less than 10 minutes.
The pent up demand for travel is huge.

[ruprecht]

Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year.
I would like to be this optimistic. :)

[PoppaJo]

Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
Air Japan was largely expat driven via contacts. Scoot not so much and it’s the cadets that will largely wear the brunt of it. Aussies at Scooter who have been there for a while are in senior roles or perm residents, so are going nowhere are still being paid nearly 50%. If they wiped out everyone minus the locals they couldn’t crew it, don’t forget it was largely a Aussie and British run venture from the get go.

Cadets won’t really be needed until the 2030s at this stage unless your a bottom feeding prop operation that nobody wants to work for and continues the high turnover.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Aussies at Scooter who have been there for a while are in senior roles or perm residents, so are going nowhere are still being paid nearly 50%.

I have a close Aussie friend who was a 787 Capt in Scoot. I say was, as last week he was made Compulsorily Redundant.

[PoppaJo]

I have a close Aussie friend who was a 787 Capt in Scoot. I say was, as last week he was made Compulsorily Redundant.
I also know of some however have only been around for a few years, and came in as DEC 787. They don’t have permanent residency and are on a contract as such.

Those who I worked with about 10-15 years ago in Tiger Singapore remain.

[krismiler]

Most of the foreign pilots in Scoot who did not have permanent residence were let go. However they are first inline when the company needs to recruit again. Unfortunately this is likely to be a number of years as, in common with most airlines, an excess to current requirements is being retained in order to be ready as things pick up.

SIA retrenched a much lower percentage of pilots, also all foreigners sans PR. The main difference is that SIA is a career airline and most non citizens who joined would have intended to stay for their entire career, in which case applying for PR would make sense. Many of the foreigners in Scoot only intended to be there for a few years before moving on and in this case PR wouldn’t have been worth it.

Some will take up other jobs and some will leave the industry all together.

[Wingspar]

Some think QF can stand down staff indefinitely but maybe QF aren’t too sure about it themselves?

The COVID-19 crisis has necessitated the standing down of a significant portion of employees. While the need to stand down employees will decrease over time, any significant successful legal challenge to the Qantas Group’s ability to stand down employees could likely have a material adverse effect on the Qantas Group’s financial performance and condition.

QF Annual Report 19/20.

Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!

[Beer Baron]

Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
Rolled over or keeping their powder dry??

If you want to run a case that pilots can’t be stood down when there are no border restrictions in place (for example), then you need to wait until there are no border restrictions before you can run that case.

No point running a case against the stand down now whilst domestic and international border restrictions quite obviously leave the business untenable. All you’d do is lose a whole lot of members money on legal fees and embolden Qantas to drag the stand down out further.

[Plastic fantastic]

SIA doesn't have any pilots that aren't ; Singaporean , Malaysian or foreigners with PR.
Retrenchments would be from all of thee groups but, probably more foreigners with PR.
Expatriates were terminated many years ago and I don't believe that they have employed DECs since.
SIA is a career airline and a few expatriates from the 70s and 80s took out PR but, none did so in recent times because the salary was so much better as an expatriate.
Those foreigners who have PR would have come through the cadet program or SilkAir and worked on local terms from the start.
To them PR would make sense but, not to expatriates.

[Come in spinner]

Wingspar and Beer Baron
I like your thought process even if you have different opinions on AIPA.
The stand down thing really needs to be addressed at some stage.

[Wingspar]

I agree with BB and hope that AIPA are biding their time. For the life of me I cannot imagine QF thinking that LH pilots especially those on the 380 and 744 will accept being stood down for years. In that sense BB is right that all the ducks need to be lined up. For the time being the ALAEA action will be interesting. It’s also interesting, from the annual report, that QF consider it a possible eventuality.

[blow.n.gasket]

Wingspar (https://www.pprune.org/members/141911-wingspar)

I agree with BB and hope that AIPA are biding their time.


I believe you maybe correct Wingspar .
I too believe AIPA maybe biding their time on this and a myriad of other issues until after the upcoming AIPA elections where certain “impediments” are likely to be “circumvented” allowing CoM under a new Executive to continue pursuing unanswered questions once again .
Something that hasn’t occurred with the last few iterations of the FUD elite !

[theheadmaster]

I believe you maybe correct Wingspar .
I too believe AIPA maybe biding their time on this and a myriad of other issues until after the upcoming AIPA elections where certain “impediments” are likely to be “circumvented” allowing CoM under a new Executive to continue pursuing unanswered questions once again .
Something that hasn’t occurred with the last few iterations of the FUD elite !

So back to the days of an expensive litigious approach with poor outcomes?

[dr dre]

If you want to run a case that pilots can’t be stood down when there are no border restrictions in place (for example), then you need to wait until there are no border restrictions before you can run that case.



Even when the federal government allows some form of international entry into the country again, probably mid next year from current indications, that won’t be a catalyst for stand downs to end. Take a look at Europe:

Travelling in Europe: Which countries have border restrictions in place? (https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/22/which-european-countries-have-opened-their-borders-ahead-of-the-summer-holiday-season)

Even though the continent is more open than March/April every country has a myriad of different restrictions in place with regards to entry, quarantine, isolation, reasons for entry, health checks, documentation and ports of entry. It is very likely the Australian government will impose similar measures in differing standards against different countries. The US for instance will probably have more stringent measures than others for a few years more, and that was a big international market for Australia.

This is also notwithstanding other nation’s restrictions on entry which may affect airline business, that could possibly also be altered at short notice. The borders won’t be back to December 2019 levels by mid next year, it’ll be a few years more after that and justification for stand downs will be well entrenched. That’s even assuming the border restrictions are the catalyst for stand downs which is what some are arguing here, not the pandemic and associated lack of international travel.

[Telfer86]

This isn't looking good 8 months in and international doesn't exist , domestic at maybe 5%

All the big babblers here screeching how quick domestic would bounce back & howling down the possibilities of CRs, vaccines next month

Big "that's all cr*p" proclamations but unable to articulate the why & how things are going to unfold

The ANZ boss the other day says he can't see Tasman opening until March 2021 at earliest , oh & by they believe half of Americans won't
take a vaccine in the event one is developed

Hard to see domestic borders opening this year, domestic starts in 2021, maybe 12 months from now domestic at 25 % , international 10 or 15 % (ie: Tasman & one of
Japan , Taiwan) . Feel free to map out your plan to open up QF international , which countries , when , what frequencies and how, detail how it is all going to work
I can't see QF returning to USA in 2021 & that was 40% of the international business

Corporates won't be travelling very much anymore in Australia, neither will public servants & no international visitors to truck around. Unfortunately domestic
is looking very very weak. Yes people want to have a holiday (Aussie not cool for under 30s locals to vacation in) but it is economic Chernobyl & a very high cost country)

Likely management know how bad it really is & that is why they are flea bagging in the relocate HQ ruse, they need the bucks

Think FF "business" will likely fall over , when oh when will punters wake up to that con , pay another 3% on CC get a whole lot of points that are unusable . Good one !

And they still say CRs won't happen , its all good as gold

[dr dre]

And they still say CRs won't happen , its all good as gold

Well by your own logic and predictions in your post they won’t. If it’s established that border restrictions are catalysts for stand downs (not legally proven) and you say the borders will be closed for a long time yet then CR won’t happen as stand downs can be continued for that time.

[OnceBitten]

Stand down isn't being driven by Border closures, It is being driven by the Jobkeeper amendment to the Fair work act. The government has stated that even when the employee subsidies expire in March 2021 businesses that still qualify for the Jobkeeper provisions may be able to continue with those provisions until their business conditions return. Meaning unfortunately for Airline and tourism staff that potentially stand down will continue until profitability returns, not borders reopening. Probably why the initial rush to push through QFLHEA variations has subsided as the company have breathing space to at least the end of March and probably beyond with the help of the Government.

[Fujiroll76]

This isn't looking good 8 months in and international doesn't exist , domestic at maybe 5%

All the big babblers here screeching how quick domestic would bounce back & howling down the possibilities of CRs, vaccines next month

Big "that's all cr*p" proclamations but unable to articulate the why & how things are going to unfold

The ANZ boss the other day says he can't see Tasman opening until March 2021 at earliest , oh & by they believe half of Americans won't
take a vaccine in the event one is developed

Hard to see domestic borders opening this year, domestic starts in 2021, maybe 12 months from now domestic at 25 % , international 10 or 15 % (ie: Tasman & one of
Japan , Taiwan) . Feel free to map out your plan to open up QF international , which countries , when , what frequencies and how, detail how it is all going to work
I can't see QF returning to USA in 2021 & that was 40% of the international business

Corporates won't be travelling very much anymore in Australia, neither will public servants & no international visitors to truck around. Unfortunately domestic
is looking very very weak. Yes people want to have a holiday (Aussie not cool for under 30s locals to vacation in) but it is economic Chernobyl & a very high cost country)

Likely management know how bad it really is & that is why they are flea bagging in the relocate HQ ruse, they need the bucks

Think FF "business" will likely fall over , when oh when will punters wake up to that con , pay another 3% on CC get a whole lot of points that are unusable . Good one !

And they still say CRs won't happen , its all good as gold


😂😂😂😂😂

Get a load of this rubbish. Thanks for the laugh
Domestic is already >20%

[Half Baked]

Domestic > 20%...........

Really? I think that is a load of rubbish!

The amount of ornamental static displays parked around the country's major 'dromes would call BS on that!

[theheadmaster]

Stand down isn't being driven by Border closures, It is being driven by the Jobkeeper amendment to the Fair work act. The government has stated that even when the employee subsidies expire in March 2021 businesses that still qualify for the Jobkeeper provisions may be able to continue with those provisions until their business conditions return. Meaning unfortunately for Airline and tourism staff that potentially stand down will continue until profitability returns, not borders reopening. Probably why the initial rush to push through QFLHEA variations has subsided as the company have breathing space to at least the end of March and probably beyond with the help of the Government.

For LH and SH pilots, they were stood down under provisions in the applicable Agreements. Stand down provisions existed in the Fair Work Act prior to the COVID amendments.

[blow.n.gasket]

So back to the days of an expensive litigious approach with poor outcomes?

Whom would you be referring to , reference going down the expensive/ poor outcome litigious route Sir ?
Barry , Dave and Murray , who happen to be on the incoming Executive ticket ( if my sources are correct ) never struck me as such !
Do you mean that if AIPA actually has the gumption and audacity to actually challenge contractual interpretations through the appropriate Industrial channels , instead of just rolling over on everything demanded by Alan , then the pilots will be dragged through the courts by Qantas ?
Oh I understand where you’re coming from now !

[theheadmaster]

Whom would you be referring to , reference going down the expensive/ poor outcome litigious route Sir ?
Barry , Dave and Murray , who happen to be on the incoming Executive ticket ( if my sources are correct ) never struck me as such !
Do you mean that if AIPA actually has the gumption and audacity to actually challenge contractual interpretations through the appropriate Industrial channels , instead of just rolling over on everything demanded by Alan , then the pilots will be dragged through the courts by Qantas ?
Oh I understand where you’re coming from now !

Thanks, that answers my question. The 2011 lockout happened under their stewardship.

[blow.n.gasket]

The lockout had what , exactly to do with the pilots and the Executive running AIPA at the time ?
Tell me , was it the red ties or was it the scripted PA’s that caused the lockout ?
God knows what Alan would have done if AIPA told the pilots to wear the issued red arm bands !
How exactly then , does that tie-in with your accusation of an expected round of expensive yet futile lawsuits ???
What , are they about to run out of Qantas office jobs over the road for retreaded AIPA executives thus through causality a new litigious era can be expected ?

[OnceBitten]

For LH and SH pilots, they were stood down under provisions in the applicable Agreements. Stand down provisions existed in the Fair Work Act prior to the COVID amendments.

​​​​​Initially that was true. However once the variations to the Fair work act by jobkeeper came into effect we have been governed by a JobKeeper enabling stand down direction which have far more reaching powers for a Business than just the EA stand down provisions we work under in normal times.

[Street garbage]

😂😂😂😂😂

Get a load of this rubbish. Thanks for the laugh
Domestic is already >20%
Just put him on the ignore list, the guy is just an embarrassment who has zero idea.
Telfer86, go away, you are just a narcissist who is loving others's misfortune.

[Keg]

I was supportive of the AIPA COM at the time. I wore the tie, made the PAs and stood at the front door to wear the flack of those passengers who decided they wanted to have a shot.

The lockout of pilots had everything to do with the AIPA COM and executive of the time. It was them that set the strategy and it was their actions that tied the pilots to the ALAEA and TWU’s ‘slow bake’. We were industrially naive as to how the situation would progress and how Qantas would respond. That’s on the executive and the COM of the time as well. Hopefully those people are all much wiser now. Judging by the actions of a number of the COM members on ‘the ticket’ I’m not convinced that’s the case.

[Telfer86]

Domestic at 20% ? Not sure what you are smoking WA , Vic , & Tas effectively closed , in/out of SA a couple of flights a day, NT effectively closed, yes maybe something
in Qld intra state. I think less than 4% , I am certainly not going to accept a figure because a senior manager at Aussie airline makes that claim. Would accept at face value
from ANZ , but for our boys I would need to see the raw data myself

Dr - suggesting that the change in quantum of domestic travel will be near enough to permanent. Large employers just aren't going to
allow their staff to travel for at least the next three years. The way people work in Aust has changed

Bitre data not out yet , June might have been 8% or so & we have gone down since then , most of the NBs getting around now
might have 20 or 30 pax

In terms of getting a large taxpayer cashy for moving HQ , QF look to their N & their S & they know they will never have this opportunity again they will
never have two greater wood ducks to milk. The Victorian will do it just for the publicity , get up shake his a$$e & start shrieking "look at me"

But the other flock of wood ducks that FF/loyalty preyed on will surely wake up now

Why can't QF have a CEO like the last few guys who have ran ANZ, home grown blokes , achieved success OS , laid back , casual no fuss ?

How's the plan to reopen International coming along ? Lots of babbling & big man talk - but no facts & no plan

I can't see how you open travel to USA, EU, SAfrica, SAmerica given the infection rates & issues you would having screening pax & issues you would have believing anything that local officials told you

Maybe Donald gets a bad rap the fatality rates in UK, Spain, France & Italy are similar too if not worse than USA unfortunately (just cursory glance UK looks
25% higher, wrong there Spain gets the gold , USA/Italy/UK call it dead heat, Frenchie get the bronze 20% off the pace)

Interesting how his highness emerges whenever I make a post - he is the main man after all

The Earl of pprune ,he does wonderful talkies

[Give it the herbs]

most of the NBs getting around now might have 20 or 30 pax

Hmm, you sure? Thats not what Fids says..

[Keg]

This (http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MelbULawRw/2013/1.html) is worth a read for those who want to revisit some of what occurred back in 2011.

[wheels_down]

I think the 20% is inclusive of FIFO and Cargo?

Excluding that, I assume we are in single digits.

[Fujiroll76]

Domestic at 20% ? Not sure what you are smoking WA , Vic , & Tas effectively closed , in/out of SA a couple of flights a day, NT effectively closed, yes maybe something
in Qld intra state. I think less than 4% , I am certainly not going to accept a figure because a senior manager at Aussie airline makes that claim. Would accept at face value
from ANZ , but for our boys I would need to see the raw data myself

Dr - suggesting that the change in quantum of domestic travel will be near enough to permanent. Large employers just aren't going to
allow their staff to travel for at least the next three years. The way people work in Aust has changed

Bitre data not out yet , June might have been 8% or so & we have gone down since then , most of the NBs getting around now
might have 20 or 30 pax

In terms of getting a large taxpayer cashy for moving HQ , QF look to their N & their S & they know they will never have this opportunity again they will
never have two greater wood ducks to milk. The Victorian will do it just for the publicity , get up shake his a$$e & start shrieking "look at me"

But the other flock of wood ducks that FF/loyalty preyed on will surely wake up now

Why can't QF have a CEO like the last few guys who have ran ANZ, home grown blokes , achieved success OS , laid back , casual no fuss ?

How's the plan to reopen International coming along ? Lots of babbling & big man talk - but no facts & no plan

I can't see how you open travel to USA, EU, SAfrica, SAmerica given the infection rates & issues you would having screening pax & issues you would have believing anything that local officials told you

Maybe Donald gets a bad rap the fatality rates in UK, Spain, France & Italy are similar too if not worse than USA unfortunately (just cursory glance UK looks
25% higher, wrong there Spain gets the gold , USA/Italy/UK call it dead heat, Frenchie get the bronze 20% off the pace)

Interesting how his highness emerges whenever I make a post - he is the main man after all

The Earl of pprune ,he does wonderful talkies

Lots of words.....Lots of dribble.

I guess you have to be employed by QF to be privy to internal news.

Or maybe just watch the national news. Great development in border openings. signs of things to come.

Thanks for the laugh nonetheless but I’ll be joining majority and placing you on the ignore list

🤫

[dr dre]

Or maybe just watch the national news. Great development in border openings. signs of things to come.


It is a good development. But QLD-ACT and SA-NSW weren't exactly the two biggest markets beforehand. I have a suspicion a lot of travel, especially business travel, will be on hold until travel is unrestricted nationwide, as a sign that the pandemic has subsided internally, which will restore consumer confidence and confidence to travel. So when Victoria gets it's situation under control, which it is doing, that can be achieved. Even the strictest Premier in WA, just yesterday said Victoria getting their situation under control means a WA border re-opening date can start to be considered. (https://thewest.com.au/politics/state-politics/was-hard-border-removal-date-can-be-considered-mark-mcgowan-ng-b881672260z)

So Domestically we may be back on track to be open again by latest early next year?

[Ragnor]

It is a good development. But QLD-ACT and SA-NSW weren't exactly the two biggest markets beforehand. I have a suspicion a lot of travel, especially business travel, will be on hold until travel is unrestricted nationwide, as a sign that the pandemic has subsided internally, which will restore consumer confidence and confidence to travel. So when Victoria gets it's situation under control, which it is doing, that can be achieved. Even the strictest Premier in WA, just yesterday said Victoria getting their situation under control means a WA border re-opening date can start to be considered. (https://thewest.com.au/politics/state-politics/was-hard-border-removal-date-can-be-considered-mark-mcgowan-ng-b881672260z)

So Domestically we may be back on track to be open again by latest early next year?

The problem with this is no state can define “what’s under control” just like what is a hot spot or what causes a border to open an shut.

SA said they would open Wednesday if there is no transmission in NSW What is not know what if there is a community transmission Saturday?!

[Tucknroll]

So Domestically we may be back on track to be open again by latest early next year?

There is no way to predict a ‘latest.’ One new Melbourne style outbreak and we’re back to square one.

[Denied Justice]

One new Melbourne style outbreak and we’re back to square one

I doubt it will go back this far. Better contact tracing and early managing of COVID clusters or hotspots should avoid the need for mass border closures again. Even Chairman Dan probably recognises this.

Also, bear in mind the QLD and WA border closures were more related to state elections than COVID. Politicians can't help themselves and won't waste a good crisis if it advances the chances of re-election. But these elections will be done and dusted by March 2021. There will be much more pressure on the WA Premier if he finds that everyone else is open.

My hope would be that by December, border restrictions along the east states would allow at least a 50% domestic service.

International services - that's a much more long term process.

[Telfer86]

Yes going from 5 % to 50 % in a couple of months is an entirely realistic possibility

It is really on the cards after watching what has happened to the Euros after they took seaside frolics & just put
Covid out of their minds for six weeks. Let's all go travelling see our friends and have some fun down at the seaside

Someone from before said if fifo included would be at 20% now, not correct fifo is about 4% of load

The detachment from reality in this country is beyond words , the Victorian was up singing & dancing last week boasting
how he just sent "teams to NSW" to study their contact tracing teams etc, he was howling out loud "look at me" , " look at me"
(big boaster this fella: also rabbiting on about his chats to CEO of QF about relocation of HQ & all that commercial/business experience from his background in Socialist Left)

I thought the time to do this would have been six months ago, this is the same person who had mandatory "diversity" training by DHS for hotel security
staff, no "infection control" training required

Would you open your borders to this bloke ?

Victoria is gone for a decade & good chance he will take the Country down with him

[compressor stall]

The detachment from reality in this country is beyond words
The detachment from reality in this thread is beyond a joke. Someone said >20% WTF?

Last week, SYD-BNE around 1900L. Qatar ahead of us on departure heading west, then not another aircraft on CTR frequencies until BNE approach. Not one. I radio checked to see that it wasn't finger trouble from me....

Right now its 1320L. SYD airport arrivals showing 22 domestic arrivals for the rest of the day. 8 interstate jets, the rest Rex/Qlink etc.

[Fujiroll76]

The detachment from reality in this thread is beyond a joke. Someone said >20% WTF?

Last week, SYD-BNE around 1900L. Qatar ahead of us on departure heading west, then not another aircraft on CTR frequencies until BNE approach. Not one. I radio checked to see that it wasn't finger trouble from me....

Right now its 1320L. SYD airport arrivals showing 22 domestic arrivals for the rest of the day. 8 interstate jets, the rest Rex/Qlink etc.

Do some research on actual numbers instead of trying to justify your point with a check in with centre due to the airspace being quiet.

Hope this helps, come back to me when ready.
https://www.qantas.com/au/en/travel-info/travel-updates/coronavirus/qantas-australian-domestic-network-changes.html

[compressor stall]

And the relevance of QFs planned schedule for next month (with a disclaimer about being subject to border openings) helps your argument how?

[CaptCloudbuster]

The detachment from reality in this thread is beyond a joke. Someone said >20% WTF?

Last week, SYD-BNE around 1900L. Qatar ahead of us on departure heading west, then not another aircraft on CTR frequencies until BNE approach. Not one. I radio checked to see that it wasn't finger trouble from me....

Right now its 1320L. SYD airport arrivals showing 22 domestic arrivals for the rest of the day. 8 interstate jets, the rest Rex/Qlink etc.

Domestic market is more than the East Coast. WA still going gangbusters.

[compressor stall]

Domestic market is more than the East Coast. WA still going gangbusters.
I'm still flying in and out of YPPH regularly; Busier than east coast for sure, but gangbusters is hardly the word I'd use.

[CaptCloudbuster]

I'm still flying in and out of YPPH regularly; Busier than east coast for sure, but gangbusters is hardly the word I'd use.

I counted 112 departures Ex YPPH today (https://www.flightstats.com/v2/flight-tracker/departures/PER/?year=2020&month=9&date=23&hour=18) not including international. Plenty of full FIFO etc. The word gangbusters certainly an appropriate aphorism to describe WA aviation ATM. The Aus aviation scene is much wider than a SYD centric / East Coast myopic view.

[Telfer86]

FIFO is just people going to work & people go to work by car , bus , train , & sometimes aircraft & helicopter or bicycle

Sure it is great that the resources industry is still going but FIFO pax is a meaningless number , the numbers that matter are RPT pax & RPT psk, and June said 380k down from 5000 k previous June

Sure it is great that pilots/maintainers etc etc still have a reasonable amount of work in the West, just don't get the Victorian giving you advices on contact tracing & hotel quarantine

I would think in WA right now maybe 400/500 international arrivals and 300/400 interstate per week , where does that take WA back to 1930s or 20s

The resource guys (especially BHP) are starting to mandate that if FIFO to a facility in state X you must reside in state X, so the end of interstate & international FIFO
, so that is a permanent hit to RPT which won't come back. Okay maybe only a very small % of pre-Covid loads, but it all adds up & much more impact in a smaller post Covid environment

[maggot]

Ffs you're a spud

FIFO is business. Its flying. Plain and ******* simple.

amazing.

[neville_nobody]

The resource guys (especially BHP) are starting to mandate that if FIFO to a facility in state X you must reside in state X, so the end of interstate & international FIFO
, so that is a permanent hit to RPT which won't come back. Okay maybe only a very small % of pre-Covid loads, but it all adds up & much more impact in a smaller post Covid environment

That will never happen long term. No mining company will ever lock itself into a state based labour force. They hire labour from all over Australia and the world to keep the price of the labour down. They will never as a long term strategy insist that the labour has to live in one location. That is just asking for wage inflation. As soon as borders are open and we have something resembling interstate RPT FIFO will be back.

[dr dre]

FIFO is just people going to work & people go to work by car , bus , train , & sometimes aircraft & helicopter or bicycle

Sure it is great that the resources industry is still going but FIFO pax is a meaningless number , the numbers that matter are RPT pax & RPT psk, and June said 380k down from 5000 k previous June


If you only knew the money to be made in resource industry flying mate you wouldn't be making that comment......

The resource guys (especially BHP) are starting to mandate that if FIFO to a facility in state X you must reside in state X, so the end of interstate & international FIFO
, so that is a permanent hit to RPT which won't come back. Okay maybe only a very small % of pre-Covid loads, but it all adds up & much more impact in a smaller post Covid environment

As has been explained before that's temporary whilst the border restrictions in force. Once the border restrictions are removed it would be unconstitutional under s117 to require that condition of employment, under the same principle that you can't deny employment in Coolangatta, Qld to some who resides a 2 min drive away in Tweed Heads, NSW.

Why are there so many trolls here who repeat this debunked nonsense to get a rise out of people at such a time?

[Telfer86]

Your missing the point , FIFO numbers stay the same so we can do what we do best - sell rocks to other people

The pax numbers to the point of departure decrease as no more transcon FIFO anymore - so the story is a net loss

Have a look at the adverts on seek for FIFO workers, all contractors now insisting you reside "in-state" (breaching the Constitution , like who cares ? ,
the States/Territories have been doing that from first day of Covid - Feds haven't acted for I would guess a number of reasons)

You have to start seeing what has already & will happen - Covid has made structural changes to "how" people will work & that is going to significantly effect pax numbers

& I'm not aware of the numbers re: $$ for FIFO , I am sure they are significant. But let me ask you this , what do you think the margin would be ? - 20% at maximum ?

[neville_nobody]

Your missing the point , FIFO numbers stay the same so we can do what we do best - sell rocks to other people

No you are assuming that a short term solution will be permanent. It won't be because it is expensive. Nothing gets a mining company's attention more than expensive labour or monopolistic practices by a contractor. I have seen it happen!!

[dr dre]

The pax numbers to the point of departure decrease as no more transcon FIFO anymore - so the story is a net loss

Have a look at the adverts on seek for FIFO workers, all contractors now insisting you reside "in-state" (breaching the Constitution , like who cares ? ,
the States/Territories have been doing that from first day of Covid - Feds haven't acted for I would guess a number of reasons)


For the legally non aware (ie Telfer86) here's an article explaining the law:

Is it illegal under the constitution for a state to close its borders to other Australians? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-23/fact-check-state-border-closures-australian-constitution-corona/12164440)

The mining companies are requiring their workers in WA to be based in WA for the duration of this pandemic/border closures as otherwise they would be paying for a interstate worker's temporary accommodation costs for the duration of the emergency. That's because they aren't being allowed into the state for the duration of this emergency, as explained in the article.

Once the border restrictions are over as a consequence of the emergency being over then s117 kicks in and denying interstate workers the right to live where they want to is illegal. Employers can insist all they want but they can't require it.

That's called using facts from people who know what they're talking about to back up your argument Telfer, please try doing it instead of posting fearmongering rubbish to scare people.

[myshoutcaptain]

I still can’t get passed the arrogance of McGowan claiming this ‘in state ‘ workforce.

eg: I work fifo from say , sydney . I’m now experienced at blowing things up and get a new gig which is subject to this requirement.

Worker takes job. Moves family to Perth. Worker still gets on a plane and flies to site for his swing. Family left in perth now with no support network, friends etc.

So the worker still fifos but the family suffers.

Apologies for drift.

[Telfer86]

So Dr Dre a few words from whoever at the ABC put that up is some kind of eminent legal opinion ? (they have among other things High Court Judges at the ABC these days ? Push button googs just has all the worlds wisdom)

Whether its lawful or not , doesn't really matter resource companies & contractors are demanding you live in state

What has already occurred in WA will happen in Qld soon

Joe Public can't take them on & this will effect quantum of domestic travel permanently

[myshoutcaptain]

WA tried this already , they need 7000 people to pick fruit and work in regional areas. Large campaign in all media forms - they had just over 400 applicants. Equates to $7 000 per person whom applied spent in advertising etc.

FIFO is not dead.

[Maggie Island]

eg: I work fifo from say , sydney . I’m now experienced at blowing things up and get a new gig which is subject to this requirement.

Worker takes job. Moves family to Perth. Worker still gets on a plane and flies to site for his swing. Family left in perth now with no support network, friends etc.

So the worker still fifos but the family suffers.

Apologies for drift.

oh please, leaving Sydney for Perth is a blessing:cool:

[ExtraShot]

oh please, leaving Sydney for Perth is a blessing:cool:

Indeed it is.

I think though, the underlying point is that while leaving the revolting mess that is Sydney (or Melbourne), for a new life in Perth is great, and many do find it a blessing, a move from Sydney to Newman, Hedland, Karratha, Pannawonica, Tom Price, etc is far less common. Therefore FIFO is not and will never be dead, at least not until until these towns grow all the amenities that the capitals have. And then, If you’re FIFO from Perth anyway, why not keep the missus happy and just commute from Sydney?

[C441]

Indeed it is.
If you’re FIFO from Perth anyway, why not keep the missus happy and just commute from Sydney?

Because…..

The mining companies are requiring their workers in WA to be based in WA for the duration of this pandemic/border closures as otherwise they would be paying for a interstate worker's temporary accommodation costs for the duration of the emergency. That's because they aren't being allowed into the state for the duration of this emergency, as explained in the article.

[ExtraShot]

Because…..


Did you miss my pint that FIFO is here to stay? Would you like to prove otherwise? Id hazard a guess not many People are moving their whole family to WA ‘for the duration of the pandemic’.

[C441]

Did you miss my pint that FIFO is here to stay? Would you like to prove otherwise? Id hazard a guess not many People are moving their whole family to WA ‘for the duration of the pandemic’.

I have no doubt that FIFO is here to stay, but from the wa.gov.au:

The categories of "exempt traveller" are set out in detail in the Directions. It is important that any person who is seeking to enter Western Australia reads and understands the categories of exempt traveller that are set out in the Directions (https://www.wa.gov.au/government/document-collections/covid-19-coronavirus-state-of-emergency-declarations#travel-and-border-state-wide). In summary, the categories include:

FIFO workers, subject to requirements to isolate for 14 days at an approved location at their employer's expense.

Thus you'd be spending 2 weeks of your 'time-off' back in WA in quarantine prior to recommencing your next period back at work. I'm not sure too many would find this reasonable if choosing to "keep the missus happy and just commute from Sydney". (Neither would their employer if they're footing the bill).

A few FIFO workers may, as did the Qantas pilots who commuted to the Perth base for the 330 and 787. They didn't have to quarantine for 14 days though although some might say it felt like it at times when on a blankline.:)

[ExtraShot]

I have no doubt that FIFO is here to stay, but from the wa.gov.au:

The categories of "exempt traveller" are set out in detail in the Directions. It is important that any person who is seeking to enter Western Australia reads and understands the categories of exempt traveller that are set out in the Directions (https://www.wa.gov.au/government/document-collections/covid-19-coronavirus-state-of-emergency-declarations#travel-and-border-state-wide). In summary, the categories include:

FIFO workers, subject to requirements to isolate for 14 days at an approved location at their employer's expense.

Thus you'd be spending 2 weeks of your 'time-off' back in WA in quarantine prior to recommencing your next period back at work. I'm not sure too many would find this reasonable if choosing to "keep the missus happy and just commute from Sydney". (Neither would their employer if they're footing the bill).

A few FIFO workers may, as did the Qantas pilots who commuted to the Perth base for the 330 and 787. They didn't have to quarantine for 14 days though although some might say it felt like it at times when on a blankline.:)

I was making a general point about people moving West for work, not necessarily due to the pandemic. Im well aware of the quarantine requirements, having done a number of 14 day periods myself. However, These militant border closures are temporary. Very few people are going to move their family across the country at great expense, away from relatives, schools, and other networks for something that could change within months, only to then leave them for two weeks at a time to go work up North.

Many people from the East (I say a majority), who do FIFO right now are just forgoing the visit home to the East to avoid the 14 day quarantine. Some havent seen their families since February/March.
They are dealing with the hardships, and hoping that the WA Government will eventually come to its senses and adopt a more reasonable approach.

The commute from the East will return when the hard state border softens. And it will, with some indications in the local rag today indicating that there's a chance it might be sooner than people think.

[Telfer86]

Each to their own view

But I think the changes to FIFO are way more permanent, WA Govt isn't mucking around , BHP has actioned it all
Qld Govt likely to do similar , keep the $$$ in the state

FIFO workers from NSW/Vic can't even get to WA atm even with 14 days quarantine now

The other impact is going to be when state borders do open many organisations in places like WA/Qld/SA will have their own
criteria over & above "state" criteria. This happened earlier in the year when borders were still more open ie: students of ABC school in Perth or ABC
electricity company in Qld , that if any of their people travelled to NSW/Vic they would have to self isolate at home for 14 days (when no Govt requirement to do so)
Expect this to happen again

But the real impact on domestic travel is going to be the decisions already made by Corporates, they are reluctant to let their own people into their
own workplaces, they aren't going to be travelling, Public Service even more cautious

Why do people hoard FF points ?

[Fujiroll76]

Why do people hoard FF points ?


For the resumption in international travel of course

[neville_nobody]

But I think the changes to FIFO are way more permanent, WA Govt isn't mucking around


It will be permanent right up until the WA government has to actually start paying for their hard border.
McGowan will get called in for 'tea & biccies' with the Minerals Council next year if he is still thinks he's El Presidente of a Sovereign State. No Mining Company wants a captive workforce.

[Poto]

Only having Pilbara workers Who live in WA long term? No access for those East Coast Covid infected scum! Yeah.....Nah. Wages will go through the roof. McGowan will he read the riot act by his Masters. Including Jabba.

[Telfer86]

McGowan may not be perfect but from the East Coast , although a bit "stern" he seems to be consistent & steady

No jumping around we open when the rest of Australia opens, won't play favourites with different states etc - he said that from day one

The biggest threat I see to domestic travel is the ALP Socialist Left Govt(SLG) in Victoria and they will be receiving international arrivals again in November,
and yet again they will not be using the ADF. They will show the rest of Australia up, they will show you how to do it PC Melbournian style. The great man is already boasting about
a "Summer like no other" (got the you beaut tagline going) - I wonder what he has in mind. Apparently had quite a hissy fit when CMO said NSW had gold standard of contact tracing

In Melb it is very much the mad hatters tea party, the SLG believe they showed the rest of Australia up as they didn't compromise SL values , the key values
were social inclusion & diversity for Hotel Security & all security guards received diversity training, employment for marginalised foreign students achieved, contracts
awarded to security companies owned by minorities awarded. The quarantine results & outcomes to SLG just have no relevance , it's about the values and the process & the PC elements of the process were eye watering

Set back domestic travel by a couple of years & cost QF hundreds of millions, if not billions. Changes have occurred to how people work/travel & the market changes moves on, a lot of the damage is permanent. These guys will be responsible for any QF group pilot redundancies , QF management have nothing to do with it

Why oh why the Fed Govt would give the loony left in Vict another go at international quarantine - well I just don't know

[Street garbage]

"Never in the history of PPrune threads has so much dribble come from one person over so many posts."

Are you are on a performance bonus Telfer? Written in your KPI's depending how much bs you write per post?

As for calling the Victorian Government mad hatters..pot calling the kettle is the only thing that comes to mind.

Could someone who actually has something insightful as to what is happening with VR/CR/ER please get this thread back on track...please

[Qanchor]

You beat me to it SG,

Yes, now that everyone here has proved to everybody here they more about wearing red ties, WA and FIFO, perhaps we could get back to,
“QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages”

Can anyone advise on the state of play re. ER, VR & EA?

[Fujiroll76]

You beat me to it SG,

Yes, now that everyone here has proved to everybody here they more about wearing red ties, WA and FIFO, perhaps we could get back to,
“QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages”

Can anyone advise on the state of play re. ER, VR & EA?

ER - Waiting on the ATO but should be finalised in a few weeks.

VR - Being worked through. Issues with the amount of training captains who express their interests. Worried it could have larger implications when the ramp up occurs. Confident all 188 will be accepted. Decision by Nov 7th.

EA - Anyone’s guess. Reduction in MGH is the main key to allow more to be stood up when the time comes. SH EA variations are also being discussed.

[Buster Hyman]

Issues with the amount of training captains who express their interests. Worried it could have larger implications when the ramp up occurs.
Nothing a nice big contractor deal couldn't fix though. :ok:

[Qanchor]

Cheers Fuji :ok:

[wheels_down]

How bad is the haircut at the Star?

[Ragnor]

How bad is the haircut at the Star?

Very bad. Earn more on jobseeker than flying over the next two yrs.

[wheels_down]

Well that’s disturbing. Was sort of expecting loco traffic to somewhat pickup fairly rapidly after Xmas.

[Come in spinner]

No haircut asked for yet.
I think we would be stupid to go backwards on the EBA.
The company will do what they want when they want.
Most of us have not worked much for the last 6 months.
If the Qantas group wants to wind up there low cost base airline so be it.

[Section28- BE]

ex ABC News: 'Qantas workers face the axe as COVID-19 grounding of flights opens outsourcing loophole'-

Article link: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-28/qantas-workers-face-the-axe-covid-19-outsourcing-fair-work/12692738

rgds
S28- BE

[Section28- BE]

All go today.......

Article link here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-28/qantas-in-court-for-standing-down-engineers-due-to-coronavirus/12710124

rgds
S28- BE

[dr dre]

ABC News: Qantas eight weeks away from running out of money at height of COVID-19

Of course the key words being left out there - if the company didn’t do anything. Standing down workers prevented that.

So what is the entire point of the ALAEA’s court action? Do they want the company to stand up all their members when there’s no work for them so the company will go bankrupt 2 months later?

[Derfred]

ABC is having a low news day. There is nothing of interest in either of those “news” articles.

[DirectAnywhere]

I found the one about using stand-down periods to bypass Transfer of Business provisions quite interesting.

[Sunfish]

As I said some time ago, the bankers are worried about Qantas survival without a bail out.

As I said on 22 August and before that. Now Qantas itself confirms what I was told.

[Derfred]

I found the one about using stand-down periods to bypass Transfer of Business provisions quite interesting.
Oh, was it?

Sorry. I gave up once I realised I was half way through the article and they were still going on with puppy dog stories about Nick and Elif.

[George Glass]

As I said some time ago, the bankers are worried about Qantas survival without a bail out.

As I said on 22 August and before that. Now Qantas itself confirms what I was told.

The problem with open websites it that they allow rather unpleasant individuals who have no dog in the fight except for a teeth-grinding resentment and sense of grievance to express an essentially meaningless opinion that contributes nothing except for a sense of the loathing of the poster.
The question is why do they take such vicarious pleasure in other people’s misfortune ?
Nobody wants your opinion.
Go away.

[ScepticalOptomist]

So what is the entire point of the ALAEA’s court action? Do they want the company to stand up all their members when there’s no work for them so the company will go bankrupt 2 months later?

Maybe to stand up and pay those that should be, and right size the operation - ie paying redundancy - not just having people sit around on no pay until it suits the company? Don’t know - just thinking out loud...

[Ragnor]

That's what I would do, have ppl sit around throw them a roster every 4-5 months get them to resign as opposed to using CR. Eventually stood down pilots will have to earn money.

[600ft-lb]

The argument is that there was work to be carried out (deferred defects, a checks, c checks, storage checks etc), Qantas just chose to not do the work. The precedent set in the past court cases is that a company can't just choose to stand down full time employees when business is slow even if the work isn't considered urgent. If there is work available, you can't stand people down. The ALAEA is arguing that there was work to do from what I understand.

[dr dre]

The argument is that there was work to be carried out (deferred defects, a checks, c checks, storage checks etc), Qantas just chose to not do the work. The precedent set in the past court cases is that a company can't just choose to stand down full time employees when business is slow even if the work isn't considered urgent. If there is work available, you can't stand people down. The ALAEA is arguing that there was work to do from what I understand.

Was it essential work though? If certain aircraft are not going to be flying for a while then those checks don’t need to be completed until close to when the aircraft are ready to return. Or maybe not. Perhaps because of the nature of tasks to be performed the ruling may only apply to engineering, which is maybe why other unions don’t seem to have joined the court action.

Maybe to stand up and pay those that should be, and right size the operation - ie paying redundancy - not just having people sit around on no pay until it suits the company? Don’t know - just thinking out loud...

I think the right sizing (as far as pilots are concerned at least) is mid 2022-2023 as stated in the recovery plan. That’s what all the VR was about. As explained in the previous post there maybe is a case for some engineers to be stood up in the interim to perform certain engineering checks, although pilots won’t need to be stood up until the recency training is needed, a month or two out from when the aircraft is bought back to service.

[midas]

Yes it is essential work. The Aircraft in storage require various checks.

The storage checks required depending on type are 3, 4, 7, 10, 14, 30, 60, 90 and 180 Day checks. Each higher level check requires the lower level checks to be completed as well in most situations.

There is more work now for the Line Stations than there was with all aircraft flying with not enough people on shift. With some aircraft requiring Return to Service checks as well which has an enormous amount of work.

This is the argument from the ALAEA. There has always been useful work for LAME’s.

[600ft-lb]

Was it essential work though? If certain aircraft are not going to be flying for a while then those checks don’t need to be completed until close to when the aircraft are ready to return. Or maybe not. Perhaps because of the nature of tasks to be performed the ruling may only apply to engineering, which is maybe why other unions don’t seem to have joined the court action.



I think the right sizing (as far as pilots are concerned at least) is mid 2022-2023 as stated in the recovery plan. That’s what all the VR was about. As explained in the previous post there maybe is a case for some engineers to be stood up in the interim to perform certain engineering checks, although pilots won’t need to be stood up until the recency training is needed, a month or two out from when the aircraft is bought back to service.

Doesn't matter if it's essential I believe is the argument. I'm not fully across it but I believe the precedent exists to prevent companies from standing down full time employees as they wish. For example, Qantas engineers could be doing any one of the c checks outstanding on aircraft parked out the front of hangars, or Jetstar engineers could be doing the checks in aircraft that were scheduled to go to Singapore for heavy checks.

[Troo believer]

Doesn't matter if it's essential I believe is the argument. I'm not fully across it but I believe the precedent exists to prevent companies from standing down full time employees as they wish. For example, Qantas engineers could be doing any one of the c checks outstanding on aircraft parked out the front of hangars, or Jetstar engineers could be doing the checks in aircraft that were scheduled to go to Singapore for heavy checks.
Two 787s were just flown to LAX for engine changes empty.

[Transition Layer]

Empty except for the belly full of freight, which they should be doing every bloody day!

[hotnhigh]

Empty except for the belly full of freight, which they should be doing every bloody day!
Except that notion doesn't fit the AJ Pty Ltd mantra.

[maggot]

Except that notion doesn't fit the AJ Pty Ltd mantra.
sky cant fall in if you're getting revenue
better lockin the rights at the lowest price possible

[blubak]

Yes it is essential work. The Aircraft in storage require various checks.

The storage checks required depending on type are 3, 4, 7, 10, 14, 30, 60, 90 and 180 Day checks. Each higher level check requires the lower level checks to be completed as well in most situations.

There is more work now for the Line Stations than there was with all aircraft flying with not enough people on shift. With some aircraft requiring Return to Service checks as well which has an enormous amount of work.

This is the argument from the ALAEA. There has always been useful work for LAME’s.
The longer they remain in storage the bigger the checks become,lots of new requirements being added & airbus/boeing no longer interested in allowing it to be side tracked or deferred.

[blow.n.gasket]

Is this the game plan ?
The great reset ?
Bankruptcy ,massive restructuring and downsizing to suit the post Covid economy ,renegotiation of all contracts with none of the redundancy costs borne due to the impoverished trading conditions ?
Senior management bonus’ all ‘round !

[dr dre]

Is this the game plan ?
The great reset ?
Bankruptcy ,massive restructuring and downsizing to suit the post Covid economy ,renegotiation of all contracts with none of the redundancy costs borne due to the impoverished trading conditions ?
Senior management bonus’ all ‘round !

No company wants to go into administration just before bankruptcy. That means the cash reserves have been whittled down to the bare minimum and there’s little left. After administrators are called in executive bonuses won’t be fruitful.

A company can downsize and restructure without calling in administrators. They aren’t going to exhaust their finances just so they can save a bit of money on pilot EBAs.

[Vindiesel]

Looks like the ALAEA lost this one
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-06/coronavirus-qantas-wins-federal-court-case-over-engineers/12734666

[dr dre]

Direct from the judgement (https://www.judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/judgments/Judgments/fca/single/2020/2020fca1428)


19. By mid-March 2020, as a result of:
(i) the collapse in passenger travel;
(ii) measures implemented domestically and internationally to restrict movement;
(iii) the increasing concern that the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic would be sustained; and
(iv) uncertainty as to how long the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic would last,

This, to an albeit untrained legal eye, would suggest that ending of border closures alone would not be sufficient to end stand downs. A return to near normal passenger numbers and an ending of the pandemic would have to happen as well.

[OnceBitten]

Direct from the judgement (https://www.judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/judgments/Judgments/fca/single/2020/2020fca1428)




This, to an albeit untrained legal eye, would suggest that ending of border closures alone would not be sufficient to end stand downs. A return to near normal passenger numbers and an ending of the pandemic would have to happen as well.

Not exactly. Normality will not be able to be returned until these provisions expire;

https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/coronavirus-and-australian-workplace-laws/pay-and-leave-during-coronavirus/jobkeeper-wage-subsidy-scheme/jobkeeper-enabling-stand-down-directions

Then it will fall back on negotiated EA's and any variations.

I highlight this section from this act.When a directions endsA qualifying employer could give an eligible employee a JobKeeper enabling stand down direction from 9 April 2020 (when the JobKeeper provisions started). A JobKeeper enabling stand down direction remains in effect until the first of the following:

the employer stops being a qualifying employer
the employee subject who is stood down by the direction stops being an eligible employee (https://www.ato.gov.au/General/JobKeeper-Payment/Employers/Your-eligible-employees/) https://www.fairwork.gov.au/Images/UserUploadedImages/external-icon.png


it is withdrawn, revoked or replaced (including by the Fair Work Commission, or
the direction stops applying on 29 March 2021.

[dr dre]

The decision related to the ability to stand down employees I believe, which Jobkeeper is a separate and exclusive issue. Jobkeeper wasn’t mentioned in the article

[Wingspar]

Here’s a question for the legal eagles.
Say SYD-LAX opens up sometime in the future. It will at some stage.
Most probably QF will use the 787.
The same scenario for LHR. At some stage.
Does that give QF the right to still stand down 380 crew?
It’s a most likely scenario sometime in the future.

[Keg]

Whilst ever demand is reduced as a result of Covid I suspect that Qantas is going to be able to mount an argument that the grounding of the A380 is beyond their control. I could see that line of argument holding up for at least 12 months after border restrictions are eased. Ultimately I think a judge is going to be ruling on this one.

[C441]

And it will be a question for the genuine legal eagles unless Qantas decide to magnanimously stand-up all pilots at that time.
I suspect it will be taken to court to determine if Qantas has any "…..other limitation of work for which the Company cannot be held responsible,….".
We can speculate all we like, but it almost certainly will come down to a decision by an independent adjudicator.

[Jeps]

What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?

[maggot]

What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?
well that depends on what they want to accomplish

[ruprecht]

What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?
Well, it would set up the mother of all RINs.

[blow.n.gasket]

Has the makings of a most interesting game of musical chairs , doesn’t it !
Too many players and not enough chairs yet the music has already stopped yet nobody can dash for an empty chair because Alan has invoked a new rule “ play statues “ , until ?????

[ROH111]

There will be no RIN.

[OnceBitten]

There will be no RIN.

Please explain????

[ROH111]

There will be no RIN, not for a very long time.

Sorry, I missed a few words out there.

“COVID.... finances.... haven’t recovered adequately yet” all lines the execs will use to argue that a RIN will send the company broke.

Its not happening. Not for a very, very long time.

[knobbycobby]

Rubbish. Qantas said they will run a RIN on the 747.

[dr dre]

Rubbish. Qantas said they will run a RIN on the 747.

That will be a “paper RIN”, displacement onto other fleets on paper, but the training onto those fleets as a result of that RIN will be well into the future, only when most of them are regularly flying again.

[OnceBitten]

There will be no RIN, not for a very long time.

Sorry, I missed a few words out there.

“COVID.... finances.... haven’t recovered adequately yet” all lines the execs will use to argue that a RIN will send the company broke.

Its not happening. Not for a very, very long time.


They will not run the line that" it will send them broke".
It's to risky for the share price and the millions of dollars Senior management have tied up in share options and bonuses just to avoid retraining a few pilots.

After VRs, the guys will be Rin'd on paper. Training however is in the lap of the gods. Things should become clearer at the end of march when Jopkeeper expires.

[A320 Flyer]

Jobkeeper has nothing to do with it. Stand downs were made before jobkeeper was even a thing

[OnceBitten]

Jobkeeper has nothing to do with it. Stand downs were made before jobkeeper was even a thing

You need to do a little more research than just making uninformed posts as above.

https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/coronavirus-and-australian-workplace-laws/pay-and-leave-during-coronavirus/jobkeeper-wage-subsidy-scheme/jobkeeper-enabling-stand-down-directions

Jobkeeper is so much more than a few bucks in an employees pocket. The cash is the distraction. It's the legislation above and beyond an EA that allows the flexibility to apply Stand down as we are currently seeing.
As I said once Jobkeeper expires the legislation then will default to the EA and things should become clearer, or at least the company has to play its hand.

[Keg]

Really? The LHEAs and SHEAs permit the respective stand downs. That would be the case whether jobkeeper existed or not. The stand downs were likely to be enacted whether the government placed restrictions on travel or not. Once jobkeeper expires you are correct about it defaulting to the respective EAs as it would have been had jobkeeper not existed to start off with.

Of course the feds may decide to continue to hand out jobkeeper to Qantas if they keep heavy restrictions on international travel. What if they decide to do that for another 2-3 years? By pilots arguing that the stand downs are linked to jobkeeper the government can essentially throw crew a bone and there is nothing we can do about it because we were the ones that argued it was linked to ‘the legislation’.

I can understand the desire to fight the stand down on the basis of it being linked to jobkeeper but I hope we don’t do so out of the desire to ‘do something’ and instead consider the ramifications very carefully.

Whilst ever a pandemic remains declared in various places around the world it’s likely that the law will continue to see some stand downs as reasonable for LH crew. Better a negotiated outcome than a legal precedent. Just need to see how some pilots were faring with sick leave before the TWU lost their court case compared with after.

[ROH111]

$50 a fortnight is still Jobkeeper... amiright?

RIN averted.

[Derfred]

You need to do a little more research than just making uninformed posts as above.

https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/coronavirus-and-australian-workplace-laws/pay-and-leave-during-coronavirus/jobkeeper-wage-subsidy-scheme/jobkeeper-enabling-stand-down-directions

Jobkeeper is so much more than a few bucks in an employees pocket. The cash is the distraction. It's the legislation above and beyond an EA that allows the flexibility to apply Stand down as we are currently seeing.
As I said once Jobkeeper expires the legislation then will default to the EA and things should become clearer, or at least the company has to play its hand.

Nope, you are not stood down under the JobKeeper extensions to the FWA.

You are stood down under the stand-down provisions in your EBA.

Read your stand down letter.

[C441]

Imagine for a moment the Federal Government had not introduced Jobkeeper or any other assistance payment directly linked to stood-down employees; for example an extension of the 'dole' for those not receiving any form of salary or wages.
Stand-downs would still have occurred as specified in various industrial awards and agreements. It's for that same reason that Qantas and probably many other employers, can continue to stand-down staff according to the relative agreement, award or the FW act once Jobkeeper ceases.

As for a trigger to cease stand-downs within Qantas and in particular for it's Longhaul Pilots, that will almost certainly be for a court to decide as I'd be fairly certain that Qantas will wish to extend it as long as possible and the Pilot group will be looking for an expedited return to minimum pay even (if it's at a reduced MGH).

[Wingspar]

Imagine for a moment the Federal Government had not introduced Jobkeeper or any other assistance payment directly linked to stood-down employees; for example an extension of the 'dole' for those not receiving any form of salary or wages.
Stand-downs would still have occurred as specified in various industrial awards and agreements. It's for that same reason that Qantas and probably many other employers, can continue to stand-down staff according to the relative agreement, award or the FW act once Jobkeeper ceases.

As for a trigger to cease stand-downs within Qantas and in particular for it's Longhaul Pilots, that will almost certainly be for a court to decide as I'd be fairly certain that Qantas will wish to extend it as long as possible and the Pilot group will be looking for an expedited return to minimum pay even (if it's at a reduced MGH).

I’d agree that March will be the crux point. Ceasing jobkeeper would coincide with border relaxation. Perhaps earlier. However at that point the Feds will say to QF “OK, you are on your own”. That’s when the matter will go to court. QF will try it out. As the consensus here indicates, it’s one for a judge.

[ruprecht]

Let’s look into the future. At some point SYD-LAX will reopen, likely with reduced demand. QF will most likely use 787s on that route rather than the A380.

Is this an economic decision, or a pandemic decision?

If the company elects to use a smaller aircraft to save money, can they keep the A380 crew stood down unpaid?

What was that ancient Chinese curse about “interesting times”? :bored:

[OnceBitten]

Nope, you are not stood down under the JobKeeper extensions to the FWA.

You are stood down under the stand-down provisions in your EBA.

Read your stand down letter.

I agree, we are stood down under the EA's however the way stand down is being used to stand some up and keep others stood down is a function of the Jobkeeper amendment. They are not mutually exclusive of each other.

[aussieflyboy]

Is this an economic decision, or a pandemic decision?

If the company elects to use a smaller aircraft to save money, can they keep the A380 crew stood down unpaid?

:bored:

NJS crew may be about to have a similar argument. PER and CNS crew are being relocated and potentially stood down in new bases - replaced by larger aircraft as an economic decision.

[crosscutter]

Why do people think a precedent hasn't already been set by the domestic situation? Border openings will have no direct bearing on stand down provisions, or if AIPA's legal opinion is different, I expect a SH challenge to be made there first.

Whilst demand is down, the stand down 'privilege' will remain. Additionally, I don't see an AIPA challenge and nor is it necessarily in the pilot's interest as a negotiated outcome is probably better for all.

[Wingspar]

Why do people think a precedent hasn't already been set by the domestic situation? Border openings will have no direct bearing on stand down provisions, or if AIPA's legal opinion is different, I expect a SH challenge to be made there first.

Whilst demand is down, the stand down 'privilege' will remain. Additionally, I don't see an AIPA challenge and nor is it necessarily in the pilot's interest as a negotiated outcome is probably better for all.

I think that is the company’s motivation with EA variations!

[Fujiroll76]

For those that missed the news today.

787’s to be deployed on London - Darwin / Delhi - Darwin.

8 flights have been approved initially with more to follow.

Hope those ASIC’s have been stored correctly and readily accessible.

Next question - Do you come off LWOP for those that are to grab a piece of the pie. CR protection gone...

😊

[Street garbage]

For those that missed the news today.

787’s to be deployed on London - Darwin / Delhi - Darwin.

8 flights have been approved initially with more to follow.

Hope those ASIC’s have been stored correctly and readily accessible.

Next question - Do you come off LWOP for those that are to grab a piece of the pie. CR protection gone...

😊
Why bother coming off LWOP, it will only go to the Office Lurkers anyway...

[Ragnor]

They doing CR are they? Thought they be needing everyone now there is only one full service carrier.

[Fujiroll76]

Why bother coming off LWOP, it will only go to the Office Lurkers anyway...

I mean it makes sense with them being all current..

Hang on..wasn’t there a seniority system in place to allocate ANY flying 🤔

A repatriation flight inbound from Delhi won’t have near the same media audience as a flight to “nowhere” .......

we might get a look in 🤞🏻

[dr dre]

It’s a good start, even though it’s only a total of 16 sectors in one month for a fleet of several hundred pilots most of whom haven’t operated for 6 months. It’ll be limited by the NT quarantine facility they will be housed in.

Hopefully there will be more opportunities on a regular basis.

.

Next question - Do you come off LWOP for those that are to grab a piece of the pie.

I believe it was mostly SOs who took LWOP. There’ll still be Trainers stood up, I assume to prep for the scenic flights and Antarctic charters.

[stiffwing]

It’s a good start, even though it’s only a total of 16 sectors in one month for a fleet of several hundred pilots most of whom haven’t operated for 6 months. It’ll be limited by the NT quarantine facility they will be housed in.

Hopefully there will be more opportunities on a regular basis.



I believe it was mostly SOs who took LWOP. There’ll still be Trainers stood up, I assume to prep for the scenic flights and Antarctic charters.
And PLENTY of supervisories........

[Angle of Attack]

737 always going to be the senior fleet!

[destiny78]

Selling all a380s and a330s

[maggot]

Selling all a380s and a330s
some first post eh

[crosscutter]

I think he’s talking about his model collection

[Beer Baron]

If the ‘78’ was your ‘destiny’ then I guess QF selling all their other LH aircraft would be a good thing. Still sounds like rubbish though, ain’t no one buying a used (or new) A380.

[dr dre]

Selling all a380s and a330s

I believe all 380s have been paid for. Not sure about the 330s.

380 resale value is worthless, so no point in getting rid of them. Might as well keep them in desert a for a few years, when numbers pick up just convert them into 550+ seat high density config A/C and send them on sub 10hr flights to Asia. Well that’s what I’d do.

[ebt]

Can't see them selling much more than they already have. The A380s will have no buyers apart from parts breakers, who do not pay a premium and will have too much supply for the next few years anyway. A330s have been oversupplied for the last couple of years, and with AA retiring the type, should be even moreso. Potential upside now that the freighter market is running hot and the conversions are getting out there, but that doesn't make the market much better. Besides, with no debt or lease payments on most of the A330 fleet, plus being able to carry a little freight, they will be cheaper to run than 787s on longer domestic and Asia runs, once the latter gets up and running.

[Fujiroll76]

26,000 Australians registered to return to Australia.
PM has announced his goal is to get them home by Christmas.
14 weeks till Christmas.

Could be a busy end to the year. Hope the training department is ready to go.

[krismiler]

That's 1860 per week, just over 6 B787s or one flight per day assuming they're full, obviously more required if social distancing is employed onboard. Number are limited by quarantine capacity on arrival but should be manageable if spread countrywide.

[Global Aviator]

26,000 Australians registered to return to Australia.
PM has announced his goal is to get them home by Christmas.
14 weeks till Christmas.

Could be a busy end to the year. Hope the training department is ready to go.

The PM is working the propaganda machine brilliantly. The 6 flights to Darwhine are not a scratch on the issue. Only 172 on the first one???

The only fix is fixing the quarantine problem, then allow all airlines flying in at least an 80% load factor and problem solved.

Far to easy and doesn’t have the headline QF saves the day. Don't get me wrong I’m all for QF flying, many mates there, I just don’t fall for the political bull****e.

Many more ways to solve the problem!

[Ragnor]

Give all the flying to QF. I don’t want Asia airlines especially ones from China getting 80% of anything.

[engine out]

Yes only 172. They have to block out business class to provide a Covid barrier jut aft of doors two and then between doors 1 and 2 as rest area that is socially distanced.

[FightDeck]

The entire value of the A380 Fleet including parts and spares has been written off. It’s not coming back.
The ex head of Training and Checking on the Project last night spelled it out clearly.
It’s not ever coming back.
If Joyce and company hadn’t spend billions buying back shares at the top of the market then perhaps there would be some money to do something with to replace them cheaply. Unlikely given the epic debt levels Qantas are now saddled with.
Noticed Joyce was awarded with plenty of share options at the AGM.
Anyone else get any? Or just a stand down letter?

[C441]

The entire value of the A380 Fleet including parts and spares has been written off. It’s not coming back.
The ex head of Training and Checking on the Project last night spelled it out clearly.
It’s not ever coming back.
He did? I must have misheard him. That's not to say you'll eventually be right or wrong but I don't believe he said or even implied that in the show.
Either way, I'm sure I've done my last 380 takeoff and landing…..

As for the rest. Yes; the AGM only served to amplify the lack of leadership from senior management.

It amuses me that those touting the 'wonderful' culture of the Virgin staff are the same one's who now declare that Scurrah was too close to the unions and thus the staff and he had to go. You cant have both a CEO who has a poor, adversarial relationship with his staff and an excellent service culture from those same staff.

[wheels_down]

The cost alone to reactive after sitting idle for 4-5 years would be eye watering. All for, what, one last final run to 2030, perhaps 5 years?

They will be parted out. Certainly is many upsides to throwing away the keys. Those engineering bills in the last 5 years of this decade can now be avoided.

They are even parting out 07/08 build A320s at the moment. Alaska are returning it’s Virgin America machines early for coke cans.

[Buster Hyman]

Give all the flying to QF. I don’t want Asia airlines especially ones from China getting 80% of anything.
I'd like to add QATAR Airways to your list please.

[Keg]

If the demand returns by 2023/24, the A380s will return. If demand doesn’t the jets won’t. None of us know the answer to that- including Joyce.

The real question is over what to do with the A380 crew in the interim.

[Iron Bar]

I wonder if Sydney Bus is respecting their seniority for North Shore routes, weekends off and overtime?

[Wingspar]

From what I understand, AJ doesn’t really appreciate the resources required to re activate an aircraft such as the A380 after long term storage. The costs associated with pilot training as well. How many current A380 crew will still be there in three years? Getting the trainers back up to speed?
Thats just the Flight Ops side of things!
If the thing isn’t planned back by the end of next year well just forget about it!
Wish it was different though.
I wonder if the new roof at Longreach can be jacked up a little?

[Keg]

There’s a plan being looked at for currency issues and the consequences of crew being uncurrent for periods exceeding 12 months is starting to be pushed up the chain. I’m not sure there will be much movement on this before the new year but it is being looked at. The bones are there already, it just needs fleshing out a bit more. I suspect once the trigger is pulled on VR (or not) they’ll start turning their minds to such things.

[Wingspar]

Gday Keg.
Notwithstanding what you said, and quite understandable the plan as well, but if I may play the devils advocate. What would CASA say in three years time when QF wants to re activate the A380’s?
AJ would no doubt approve some sort of currency training for the long term but would CASA be happy with that in three years time?

[blow.n.gasket]

Agree totally wingspar.
Hard to peddle influence when you’ve closed shop and have nothing of worth left to sell !

[Keg]

No doubt CASA will be consulted along the journey. They have up until this point, I don’t see why that would change.

[OnceBitten]

Gday Keg.
Notwithstanding what you said, and quite understandable the plan as well, but if I may play the devils advocate. What would CASA say in three years time when QF wants to re activate the A380’s?
AJ would no doubt approve some sort of currency training for the long term but would CASA be happy with that in three years time?


Wouldn't it be approached in the same way as a new fleet introduction like we have done in the past? The fact that there is crew that are endorsed and under a five year period is just a bonus from totally starting from scratch.

[Wingspar]

I agree.
When we introduced the A330 many trainers did sectors with other carriers. They came back, flew the initial sectors then slowly introduced line crew.
This time how will they do it? I doubt CASA will be happy if QF want to run some sims and then throw the crew on revenue line sectors? Perhaps getting trainers on the 330 for a while? I don’t know just a question on what issues may arise.
Nonetheless just one of many issues from re activating aircraft from long term storage. If they want to that is? What if they eventually order standard A350-1000’s as part of ‘Sunrise’. Probably Airbus will throw in training and CASA will be happy with initial line sectors on the A330?
Cheaper than bringing back the A380’s?
Who knows?

[Keg]

This isn’t a new aircraft type. It’s an aircraft that Qantas has a decade of experience operating and that all the trainers have a fair bit of experience on. A proper sim currency program (both ongoing as well as slightly more ramped up/ directed as return to service approaches) should get the trainers up to speed again.

Then, when (if?) it comes time to re-activate the A380s they will likely I fly them across the hill from MHV to LAX first- not sure if they can do gear swings in MHV or whether the jet will need some hangar time to do that. That gives you anywhere between 6 or 9 sectors (depending on how many aircraft you’re getting out of storage at any one time) to get some trainers current in the jet. Then you have a similar number of sectors getting the jet(s) back to SYD (with or without pax) which takes care of more trainers. Perhaps some SYD-MEL-SYD stuff to get some more sectors into line crew and then we’ve got enough critical mass to get up and going.

Yes, an order for A350s in the interim certainly muddies the waters regarding the A380 return. I guess we’ll wait and see on that one.

The more critical of the issue is going to be more about what does the sim recurrent training program (both the interim and the return to service) look like more than the actual sectors in the jet. No doubt the line trainers will be bloody busy in those first couple of months.