Ryanair-10

[lederhosen]

I am with O'Leary on this one. I posted on another thread that an analysis of the risk of contagion on flights was carried out during the SARS crisis. If you search for Air China 112 on Google you will find an example, which led to the the conclusion that there was risk of infection over multiple rows (the two row rule). I think masks for everyone may be one way to go. A basic fact that a lot of people don't seem to have understood is that the mask provides the wearer with very little protection, but everyone else is considerably better protected if that person is infectious. The example I was given was that if you get on your packed train wearing a mask you are probably reducing your risk by less then 10%, but if you and everyone else is wearing masks your risk is reduced by over 90%.

[OzzyOzBorn]

the only solution in my mind is to find a way to test passengers before they travel to the airport - almost like having a test 3 days before travel then self-isolating until the day if you are proven not to have it. You could have a little stamp that goes in your passport or similar to confirm.

So who is going to book travel knowing that they will be obliged to confine themselves to their hotel room for three days before the homeward journey? This just isn't practical from the perspective of either business or leisure travel.

[racedo]

So who is going to book travel knowing that they will be obliged to confine themselves to their hotel room for three days before the homeward journey? This just isn't practical from the perspective of either business or leisure travel.


You mean a bit like assurring check in that you read the T&Cs.........

[LessThanSte]

Thats a valid point - but these are all semantics. Theres no reason why it couldnt be that you cant get through security etc. without confirmation that you are clear of the virus dated within the previous couple of days. That has the disbenefit of meaning that people may still travel to the airport with the virus, though they wont be able to get on a plane.

The point, more specifically, is that leaving the middle seat free is purely a psychological gimmick, with no real benefit to passengers and significant costs to all parties.

If aviation is to get going again, it either needs a full release of restrictions (as in back to pre-virus days) or some form of control of passenger flows to avoid the virus getting on a plane in the first place (hence the idea above, and thousands of alternative methodologies along similar lines). A full release of restrictions is probably only likely once the virus has been all but eliminated (i.e. not soon). Some form of control could instead be implemented in short order, and get the economy moving again. But it needs to be robust.

[LGS6753]

The proposal to keep middle seats free has no merit. Many people travel in groups (families, couples) who live together. They don't need to be separated, so it is a waste of capacity to cordon off centre seats. The solution may be a small programme incorporated into the booking engine where seats are allocated. this could be programmed to leave a pre-set gap between discrete parties. It would enable airlines to incentivise bookings of 2, 3 and 4 people together, as they would not require separating. Of course, it would rely on groups not living together to declare themselves separate.

[LTNman]

All very good until the passengers are forced to board a crowded bus at some foreign airport because the aircraft has parked away from the terminal.

[vikingivesterled]

In the not so old days there was a curtain between cattle class and the front of the airplane. A curtain that could be set on any seat row depending on how many was booked in each cabin class.
Wouldn't a curtain between each and every row of seats negate the need fo distance. A relatively cheap solution that already exists and just need to be bought in in numbers. Maybe even a curtain between seats in the same row could be added for your own little cocoon. Certainly something a thrifty airline exec could put together a sample of, photograph and suggest to the relevant authorities. Instead of just complaining, threatening and then leave the initiative to overcarefull politicians decicions.

When that is said there are constant pictures of jam packed flights in Norway with all seats occupied every day now due to few flights available.

Btw LTNman, you can avoid touching your face during a short busride and disinfect your hands afterwards, but during a multihour planetrip ....

[racedo]

In the not so old days there was a curtain between cattle class and the front of the airplane. A curtain that could be set on any seat row depending on how many was booked in each cabin class.
Wouldn't a curtain between each and every row of seats negate the need fo distance. A relatively cheap solution that already exists and just need to be bought in in numbers. Maybe even a curtain between seats in the same row could be added for your own little cocoon. Certainly something a thrifty airline exec could put together a sample of, photograph and suggest to the relevant authorities. Instead of just complaining, threatening and then leave the initiative to overcarefull politicians decicions....

So who disinfects these between sectors ? What material would you guarantee that Drunken bum who sneezed a lot would not live a single trace of any infection anywhere ?

Flights will resume, people will catch it and majority of people will recover. just like every single other virus that is out there and currently exists and nobody knows about.

[davidjohnson6]

So you're saying that anybody aged over about 60 shouldn't fly with Ryanair ? Then again, that's probably quite accurate - they are an airline for people who are able to look out for themselve; I felt bad when I dragged my Dad onto a 1h30 flight when he was 70 - I realised that even with me watching out for him that he was too old to put up with them

[vikingivesterled]

So who disinfects these between sectors ? What material would you guarantee that Drunken bum who sneezed a lot would not live a single trace of any infection anywhere ?

Flights will resume, people will catch it and majority of people will recover. just like every single other virus that is out there and currently exists and nobody knows about.

The guaranteed no infection left behind is not possible with the existing seat configuration either, so just a distraction.
And a "majority will recover" statement is nearly as bad as saying the majority will survive the flight. That don't fly with most.

If you want to be difficult there exists a selfdisinfecting cloth for masks, made in Israel, that uses copperpowder from a norwegian factory, that kills the virus.
But I'm sure there could be found cheaper and easier solutions. I'm thinking wipe down vinyl or quick change and boilwash. Unless one thinks the world now only consists of problems and for anything to work in the future it has to be like before.
What is better; a thorough clean between flights or max 2/3 capacity, or even less if one in addition to midle seat starts with leaving rows free also.
The ones that adapts will be the future winners, like always. Are you ahead of the game you even get to design the solution. I remember Ryanair engineering used to have a sewing unit for seat repairs, that probably could put togheter a sample.

[chuboy]

Flights will resume, people will catch it and majority of people will recover. just like every single other virus that is out there and currently exists and nobody knows about.
We know the majority of people get better big-brain, the problem is that collectively we don't have the capacity in our hospitals to care for the ones who don't. If you don't limit the spread then being "in the minority" is a death sentence, simple as that.

There's no proof people can't catch it twice. There's no proof the virus won't be latent in your body for decades after getting better and then kill you one day like the measles can. There's no way to even predict whether you're likely to be in the minority who get sick as many sick/old have made an apparent full recovery.
​​​​​
You're just plain wrong if you think COVID-19 is nothing new. Nobody alive has seen anything anything like it.

[toledoashley]

I really wouldn’t be surprised if it was mandated that you have to wear as mask onboard an aircraft - in a similar way we had no sharp objects and the liquid rule. Masks available at the airport like the plastic bags for liquids.

Not fool proof, but probably the best comprimise available at the moment.

[racedo]

The guaranteed no infection left behind is not possible with the existing seat configuration either, so just a distraction.
And a "majority will recover" statement is nearly as bad as saying the majority will survive the flight. That don't fly with most.

Most will recover and that is fact because were that not the case then the death rate would be in the hundreds of thousands in UK alone by now. The projected mortality rate is circa 1% or less of those infected.

As of yesterday it is 20k and will continue to rise but UK own statistics have shown that in winter 2014/15 there were 28,330 deaths from flu. People who tested and shown to have Covid-19 who then die are recorded as having died of it even though it has been highlighted that a significant majority have severe underlying medical conitions and dying anyway. In addition people who die and not been tested are excluded from the statistics even though they may have died from Covid-19. On that basis the stats have a great deal of unreliability as have been highlighted numerous time in the last month by the media.

WHO estimates that between 270,000 and 650,000 died each year from influenza and have caution with that figure as many people who caught it are not reported as dying from it where there were underlying conditions.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/flu-bigger-concern-wuhan-virus-grabs-headlines/5701932


If you want to be difficult there exists a selfdisinfecting cloth for masks, made in Israel, that uses copperpowder from a norwegian factory, that kills the virus.
But I'm sure there could be found cheaper and easier solutions. I'm thinking wipe down vinyl or quick change and boilwash. Unless one thinks the world now only consists of problems and for anything to work in the future it has to be like before.
What is better; a thorough clean between flights or max 2/3 capacity, or even less if one in addition to midle seat starts with leaving rows free also.
The ones that adapts will be the future winners, like always. Are you ahead of the game you even get to design the solution. I remember Ryanair engineering used to have a sewing unit for seat repairs, that probably could put togheter a sample.

Viruses by their nature change all the time and will continue to do so. Catching the virus and allowing the body deal with it has been the most effective way for thousands of years. It will continue to be the way going forward and no end of expensive solutions will change it.

[racedo]

We know the majority of people get better big-brain, the problem is that collectively we don't have the capacity in our hospitals to care for the ones who don't. If you don't limit the spread then being "in the minority" is a death sentence, simple as that.

There's no proof people can't catch it twice. There's no proof the virus won't be latent in your body for decades after getting better and then kill you one day like the measles can. There's no way to even predict whether you're likely to be in the minority who get sick as many sick/old have made an apparent full recovery.
​​​​​
You're just plain wrong if you think COVID-19 is nothing new. Nobody alive has seen anything anything like it.

Everybody has seen a Covid-19 type virus, it is called influenza and WHO estimates kills 650,000 people per year and even then that likely a significant underestimate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Estimates+of+global+seasonal+influenza-associated+respiratory+mortality%3A+a+modelling+study.+Lance t.+2017

Viruses killing thouands are not new because TB is estimated to infect 10 million plus people a year with 1.3 million dying and a mortality rate of 3%. As it is not a 1st world disease unless an outbreak close to a media station it is ignored.

US CDC estimates flu season in the US has 40 million infections per year with circa 60,000 plus deaths in a normal year but because the data is not fully recorded and someone dying on cancer who has flu can be recorded in either or both or something else.

[racedo]

I really wouldn’t be surprised if it was mandated that you have to wear as mask onboard an aircraft - in a similar way we had no sharp objects and the liquid rule. Masks available at the airport like the plastic bags for liquids.

Not fool proof, but probably the best comprimise available at the moment.

Cheapest solution and likely most effective because while it won't neceassarily stop you catching something it may stop someone else spreading it. Also likely only required at certain times of the year i.e. flu season.

[AirportPlanner1]

A couple of points to note, the 20k dead in U.K. so far is highly likely a significant underestimation (could even be double) and we’ve still got some way to go so the flu argument is redundant.

The fit and well and the under 70s carrying on with normal life is all well and good but how does that help route economics and the viability of some airlines. Sure, Stansted-Sofia may be fine but how about Stansted-Alicante? Malaga? Could such routes sustain a huge loss of market, disproportionately high in the months such routes are at their weakest

[davidjohnson6]

Ryanair will have to shrink down a bit. They seem more than capable of cutting underperforming routes/frequencies and opening other routes instead. Why should Stansted-Alicante in October (outside half term) be any different ?

[racedo]

A couple of points to note, the 20k dead in U.K. so far is highly likely a significant underestimation (could even be double) and we’ve still got some way to go so the flu argument is redundant.

The fit and well and the under 70s carrying on with normal life is all well and good but how does that help route economics and the viability of some airlines. Sure, Stansted-Sofia may be fine but how about Stansted-Alicante? Malaga? Could such routes sustain a huge loss of market, disproportionately high in the months such routes are at their weakest

It could just as equally be lower because having been diagnosed positive with Covid-19 and dying, doesn't mean you died of Covid-19 but the stats are recording it that way.

Likewise nursing homes are getting unrecorded but in flu season the undertaker is a regular caller at a nursing home in a bad flu season.

[AirportPlanner1]

It could just as equally be lower because having been diagnosed positive with Covid-19 and dying, doesn't mean you died of Covid-19 but the stats are recording it that way.

In principle yes but there has been a rise of thousands in deaths compared to what is normal. So in actual fact Covid-19 is causing significant additional mortality no matter whether officially someone died from it or some other unrelated/underlying cause. The net additional deaths on their own will most likely exceed the flu figure.

[inOban]

Everybody has seen a Covid-19 type virus, it is called influenza and WHO estimates kills 650,000 people per year and even then that likely a significant underestimate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Estimates+of+global+seasonal+influenza-associated+respiratory+mortality%3A+a+modelling+study.+Lance t.+2017

Viruses killing thouands are not new because TB is estimated to infect 10 million plus people a year with 1.3 million dying and a mortality rate of 3%. As it is not a 1st world disease unless an outbreak close to a media station it is ignored.

US CDC estimates flu season in the US has 40 million infections per year with circa 60,000 plus deaths in a normal year but because the data is not fully recorded and someone dying on cancer who has flu can be recorded in either or both or something else.
Where do I start? The only similarity between Covid19 and flu is that they are both RNA viruses. The nearest relatives to Covid19 are some of the viruses which cause the common cold.
And TB of course isn't a virus at all, it's a mycobacterium.

[racedo]

In principle yes but there has been a rise of thousands in deaths compared to what is normal. So in actual fact Covid-19 is causing significant additional mortality no matter whether officially someone died from it or some other unrelated/underlying cause. The net additional deaths on their own will most likely exceed the flu figure.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/latest

ONS looks at what is mentioned on death certificates as the last press release indicates.
Deaths are way above normal but underlying medical conditions are playing a massive part as born out by Govt statement after statement.
The who basis of looking at this will be over a year and as the year goes on the total deaths could increase but also decrease v normal as Covid-19 may have hastened the deaths of people who may have died anyway this year anyway.

[racedo]

Where do I start? The only similarity between Covid19 and flu is that they are both RNA viruses. The nearest relatives to Covid19 are some of the viruses which cause the common cold.
And TB of course isn't a virus at all, it's a mycobacterium.

TB may be so BUT 1.5 million people died of TB in 2018, likely the same last year and the same this year and it spreads through the air when people cough, spit or sneeze................ exactly the same as Covid-19.

[vikingivesterled]

TB may be so BUT 1.5 million people died of TB in 2018, likely the same last year and the same this year and it spreads through the air when people cough, spit or sneeze................ exactly the same as Covid-19.

Why are you comparing CoVid19 to a disease most of us are vaccinated against and have been for a long time. I got my BCG in 75. A whatever most of the population are already immune to is hardly comparable to a virus no vaccine exists against, we are only learning how to treat appropriately and which immunity against or for how long still cannot be confirmed even if you have had it. Such a lax atitude is not going to bring customers back to Ryanair or any other airline in any numbers anytime soon.
In addition its Trump talk and most european politicians will likely take a different and mouch more careful line in precautions including how cross border including airline traffic is handled. At least to avoid 14 days in quarantine for every passenger. Unless you are planning a Sweden-Hungary-Brasil-USA (Tegnell(politicians keeping a low profile),Orban,Bolsonaro,Trump) combination route. But then Ryanair at least would need some Norwgian 787's.

[chuboy]

TB may be so BUT 1.5 million people died of TB in 2018, likely the same last year and the same this year and it spreads through the air when people cough, spit or sneeze................ exactly the same as Covid-19.
Setting aside whether TB can be managed with medication or can be vaccinated against - which it can.

TB DOESN'T SEND YOU TO HOSPITAL WITHIN WEEKS OF YOU BEING EXPOSED TO IT

Without a vaccine it is inevitable that we will all catch COVID-19 one day as we have no immunity, that fact has not eluded our world's epidemiologists. The question is do you let everybody get sick at once, ensuring that most or all of the people who suffer complications will die? Or do you slow the spread as long as possible to give the health system time to manage the cases without running out of basic supplies like surgical masks? To buy our medical researchers time to test potential treatments or vaccines?

PPE is one thing, more can be made within a few weeks. It takes decades to retrain a specialist doctor if one succumbs to the illness after catching it from a patient.

[alm1]

Without a vaccine it is inevitable that we will all catch COVID-19 one day as we have no immunity, that fact has not eluded our world's epidemiologists.

I do not excpect to catch it. But it may happen if we open travel to countries which completely failed like UK. Here in Lithuania we have only 0,05% population infected and it is on decline now. Poland has even less cases per population, about half of that. The goal should have been not to slow it but to completely erradicate and that was quite possible if acted on time.

And to put in the perspective what Poland has done to have that rate - when they closed boarders they even refused to let Lithuanian passenger cars cross from Germany to return, we had thousands stranded. Only buses were allowed to cross after a few days of negotiations and those drove with police escort. Cars were not accepted even with police escort offered as an option, they had to use ferry or stay.

The idea of having free travel so soon will be looked at quite sceptical here.

[SWBKCB]

I suppose with two seperate Ryanair threads on the go, there's no need to talk about Ryanair on the Ryanair thread.

Maybe somebody should open a more generalist thread on the impact of the virus on air travel? Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

[Alteagod]

Any idea what the FR68 today wss doing DUB-ROB?

[Noxegon]

Any idea what the FR68 today wss doing DUB-ROB?

That's got to be close to the limit of what a 738 can do.

[MDS]

That's got to be close to the limit of what a 738 can do.

Depends on the load factor. They routinely fly BFI-DUB on delivery flights from Seattle.

[globetrotter79]

Any idea what the FR68 today wss doing DUB-ROB?

Aren’t there Irish military personnel stationed in west Africa for peacekeeping duties? I’d assume this would be a charter for troop movement reasons?

i thought, back in the day, excel airways used to fly some of these charters on the B738...so it should be doable non-stop subject to loads..?

[Alsacienne]

Originally Posted by Noxegon
That's got to be close to the limit of what a 738 can do.
Depends on the load factor. They routinely fly BFI-DUB on delivery flights from Seattle.

I think they refuel at KEF en route.

[Gurnard]

Don't think so. I believe most were direct BFI-DUB.

[LGWAlan]

Private charter repat flight: https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-boeing-737-liberia/

[kfsimpson]

That's got to be close to the limit of what a 738 can do.
Outbound flight was non-stop, return flight refuelled in Seville.

[jon01]

Ryanair boss speaking on BBC, 3000 jobs to go and some UK bases to close

[SWBKCB]

Ryanair has said it is set to cut 3,000 jobs - 15% of its workforce - as it restructures to cope with the coronavirus pandemic.It said the 3,000 posts under threat were mainly pilot and cabin crew jobs. There were likely to be pay cuts of up to 20% for remaining staff, the airline added. Boss Michael O'Leary told the BBC that the planned cuts were "the minimum that we need just to survive the next 12 months".

In a sideswipe at rivals, it said its return to scheduled services would be rendered more difficult by competing with flag carrier airlines, "who will be financing below cost selling with the benefit of over €30bn in unlawful state aid, in breach of both EU state aid and competition rules".

Ryanair said it had entered the coronavirus crisis with reserves of almost €4bn in cash and continued to "actively manage" those resources in order to survive the pandemic.


BBC - Ryanair set to cut up to 3,000 jobs to survive virus (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52498691)

[ericlday]

Also from BBC......Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has said it will take up to six months to refund passengers for flights cancelled because of the coronavirus pandemic.

He told the BBC the airline was struggling to process a backlog of 25 million refunds with reduced staff.

However, he pledged: "If you want a cash refund, you will receive a cash refund."

[WHBM]

Refunding back to the original card is just an IT matter. They have all the data and technical resources to do it. One looks (probably in vain) for the Dept of Transport to lift one of their many available fingers to do the slightest thing about this for UK passengers (I see the UK Competition & Markets Authority feel they have had to get going with the media on this, given the DfT's complete inaction).

I must look up my Bankruptcy Law, but if a company does not have the cash to refund people their advance payments for services then not provided, they look like they may be trading when insolvent. It's all very nice to have advance payments in the bank, but they shouldn't then be used for prior operational expenditure. That's a Ponzi Scheme.

[racedo]

Refunding back to the original card is just an IT matter. They have all the data and technical resources to do it. One looks (probably in vain) for the Dept of Transport to lift one of their many available fingers to do the slightest thing about this for UK passengers (I see the UK Competition & Markets Authority feel they have had to get going with the media on this, given the DfT's complete inaction).

I must look up my Bankruptcy Law, but if a company does not have the cash to refund people their advance payments for services then not provided, they look like they may be trading when insolvent. It's all very nice to have advance payments in the bank, but they shouldn't then be used for prior operational expenditure. That's a Ponzi Scheme.

You should represent yourself in court as well.

[LTNman]

In the interview O’Leary mentioned the closing of some UK bases. Anyone like to speculate?

[rog747]

In the interview O’Leary mentioned the closing of some UK bases. Anyone like to speculate?

MOL said 3000 or so RYR Crews (FD and CC) could be made redundant plus he was looking to close smaller UK and European bases hinting these would be summer only/seasonable bases. As the summer season was not going operate in any number then the winter season will be upon us hence the need to close them.

BOH, for instance is a one plane base but I gather it is year-round so they may not take a hit. (BOH is my local)

He also said ''and IF we survive this...''

[The Hypnoboon]

I would think that there may be consolidation of the Glasgow and Prestwick operations into one. But which way I wouldn't like to guess, GLA is more convenient for passengers, but PIK has the large maintenance base and makes rotating aircraft in and out easier.

[hec7or]

advance payments for services then not provided

you have identified the issue....”advance payments” are a future, “services then not provided” are a default.

Airlines and tour operators use liquidity provided by cash from future bookings to finance the day to day operation.

Banks and insurance companies do the same with deposits and premiums.

[racedo]

MOL said 3000 or so RYR Crews (FD and CC) could be made redundant plus he was looking to close smaller UK and European bases hinting these would be summer only/seasonable bases. As the summer season was not going operate in any number then the winter season will be upon us hence the need to close them.

BOH, for instance is a one plane base but I gather it is year-round so they may not take a hit. (BOH is my local)

He also said ''and IF we survive this...''

He is being correct. Q1 has ended for most companies and majority are not forecasting to the end of the year.

When John Lewis indicates many stores will not reopen, Debenhams is pretty much gone, numerous others will go as well and retail shopping is dead aside from food. To Quote next boss "Nobody wants to spend £100 on an outfit to sit at home.".

Nightingale hospital was built with much fanfare but they could have taken 3 months as it is planned for next winter.

In the event of a second wave which is expected then this and others are prepped. The impact on the economy will be to pretty much destroy it completely and if winter has a second wave then people will talk themselves into a 3rd wave in 2021, even if it doesn't arrive.

[panpanpanpan]

Just a query Racedo - I've read many of your posts. You never ever ever seem to look for a positive outcome or positive thinking on anything! You've either been reading the Daily Mail for way too long or else you are a naturally pessimistic person that takes delight in wallowing in self pity and worst case scenarios. I'm all for being realistic and facing facts but having an outlook like yours on a permanent basis can't be good for your mental health! Theres no doubt the current place we all find ourselves isn't good but it will get better. Just as previous disasters and financial problems passed through - this will as well. It isn't the end of civilisation just yet.:cool:

[racedo]

Just a query Racedo - I've read many of your posts. You never ever ever seem to look for a positive outcome or positive thinking on anything! You've either been reading the Daily Mail for way too long or else you are a naturally pessimistic person that takes delight in wallowing in self pity and worst case scenarios. I'm all for being realistic and facing facts but having an outlook like yours on a permanent basis can't be good for your mental health! Theres no doubt the current place we all find ourselves isn't good but it will get better. Just as previous disasters and financial problems passed through - this will as well. It isn't the end of civilisation just yet.:cool:

Oooh missus I got a fan or a stalker. I must admit not having read many of yours, sorry, so cannot do an online analysis of your thinking by reading some words on a screen.

Stating the facts that retail has collapsed and will stay there is pretty much in most business pages of any media these days. UK is a consumer led economy where retail is a major part. Losing that means losing a substantial amount of jobs and a substantial amount of people who fly for leisure.

You also have a change with people getting used to not shopping, even ending lockdown, the hospitality sector will not open until end of summer. The girl spending £100 at Next for a saturday night out, is also the girl who will discuss with her mates at the pub / club the weekend away in October in some part of Europe. Remove one part of it and you impact every subsequent event......... you may not see it but those who do the insight marketing do.

Many of my leisure trips have started because someone made a suggestion in the pub, restaurant, club. Others may be different but number of people I know who came back in Monday over the years who started looking at a trip from a suggesion over the weekend is substantial because someone said something.

The additional hospitals were a good PR exercise when it was needed but were PR. They were never for this part of the crisis at this time. They just proved the ability to do it.

The Airline industry be in Ryanair / IAG / U2 and others are at a point where they may be gone next year. Many people have gone into self isolation and exclusion of all, removing lockdown will not remove the fear, a second winter wave will have people expecting a 3rd one and nobody will be booking anything, "just in case", as insurers will not be covering.

Everybody will have different opinion how this ends up but like always it is good to see others opinions rather than kicking someone because they put theirs down.

MOL is out there for being one of those people who will call the industry view before others. Airline bosses do speak to each other and internal lawyers will always know what was discussed. but what he said is not any different from what every other airline boss is saying.

[SWBKCB]

The girl spending £100 at Next for a saturday night out, is also the girl who will discuss with her mates at the pub / club the weekend away in October in some part of Europe

Just because the pubs are shut, that hasn't stopped converstations. Zoom isn't only being used to do away with the need for business travel :ok:

There is the "we need a holiday after all this" factor as well. Also, being reported that last month saw the largest reduction in credit card debt for years - if your not spending £100 in Next for a Saturday night...

[davidjohnson6]

The night is darkest before the dawn.
During the flu pandemic of 1918-19 which was far more severe than Covid, life carried on. Presidents and prime ministers around the world are talking now about how to exit lockdown, and after the initial shock, people under about 60 are beginning to decide they can maybe take a few more risks.

To those working as cabin crew in Ryanair and facing redundancy - look at this as a time to learn something new and fulfilling and finding a better job; there's more to life than flogging overpriced cappuccinos to enrich somebody else.

Chin up, and commercial aviation will get through this and bounce back

[racedo]

Just because the pubs are shut, that hasn't stopped converstations. Zoom isn't only being used to do away with the need for business travel :ok:

There is the "we need a holiday after all this" factor as well. Also, being reported that last month saw the largest reduction in credit card debt for years - if your not spending £100 in Next for a Saturday night...

Oh I get you BUT many people have influencers on their lives, they may want to go but the influencers start saying "No", "Too risky" etc etc. Talking on zoom (other services are available) is ok but sitting in a group at a bar and coversation goes everywhere and someone suggests something, bar person chips in saying X was great, etc etc and a plan starts. Just a wee bit harder on zoom etc.

The stopping spending if this lasts to June will potentially continue as people will finally get a chance to get out of debt or in many cases will look to change jobs. There will be a gret reset in how people do things and travel will be one of the casualties along with retail.

[racedo]

To those working as cabin crew in Ryanair and facing redundancy - look at this as a time to learn something new and fulfilling and finding a better job; there's more to life than flogging overpriced cappuccinos to enrich somebody else.


DJ. Think this is a bit condescending to people who do enjoy working in airlines. In many cases gives them opportunities to learn, travel, meet new friends, no different from people working in McDonalds for 4-5 years when they are young.

[davidjohnson6]

Condescending, yes. However, cabin crew at Ryanair is never going to be something more than a thing to do for a few years. Seeing the outside of an airport terminal while turning a plane round doesn't count much in my opinion as an opportunity for travel when you can't easily visit the place.

Yes, cabin crew has a serious side, but the T&Cs of employment are mediocre at best. Anyone working as FR cabin crew should be thinking of the next thing to do so as to ensure they get the most out of their life

[racedo]

Condescending, yes. However, cabin crew at Ryanair is never going to be something more than a thing to do for a few years. Seeing the outside of an airport terminal while turning a plane round doesn't count much in my opinion as an opportunity for travel when you can't easily visit the place.


Strange that cabin crew across LCs I have chatted to have lots and lots of experiences in many countrys that they have availed of cheap fares to get to.
Sleep on fellow colleagues rooms / floors / counches in a sleeping bag and visiting a new city may not be what you like. But spending the weekend in Barcelona or Madrid or Dublin or London or Amsterdam and it costing you nothing more than a discounted flight is great for them. OTOH my nieces and nephews do exactly that with friends across EU and they don't work in airline industry.


Yes, cabin crew has a serious side, but the T&Cs of employment are mediocre at best. Anyone working as FR cabin crew should be thinking of the next thing to do so as to ensure they get the most out of their life

So what ? Who are you to judge what someone does in their working life.

The graduates I worked with in 2016 referenced an article where someone got dismissed when he highlighted that graduates were more interested in quality of life than ascending the career ladder. They saw parents / family marraiges collapse as people got sucked into corporate world who could never be around for them. I have asked grads the same question since and found having a life and friends was more important than the next career step. Think you find at the end of this that that view will predominate.

[airsound]

The Hypnoboon - in your discussion of whether it'll be PIK or GLA to get the chop, you suggest that GLA is more convenient for passengers I have to say that I'm not aware that passenger convenience has ever entered into the working considerations of Mr O'Leary

airsound

[SWBKCB]

It does if it is more convenient for pax to fly Jet2 from GLA rather than RYR from PIK...

[GrahamK]

It does if it is more convenient for pax to fly Jet2 from GLA rather than RYR from PIK...
Price will win out

[racedo]

It does if it is more convenient for pax to fly Jet2 from GLA rather than RYR from PIK...

I think all bets are off on everything as everybody will look to start from a clean base because everybody else will be starting from the same place.

I think it is difficult to assume anything because spare cash both from customers and banks to fund airlines may not be around.

I can see some regional airports existing on a few flights in morning and evening.

When I started the Coronavirus airline thread 3 months ago I suggested it could be worst case scenario a 10 yr recovery if it went bad, it still is a long stretch to get to that time frame but somewhere between 5 and 10 is not now unrealistic.

[rog747]

I agree Racedo - We, plus the aviation industry, the Economy, the Banks, will all have to press a very large Reset Button that will see the face of everything change beyond recognition to the way we lived and operated just 3 months ago.

Who would have thought that today we would discuss here comments made from Ryanair's CEO M O'L, who said a few days ago when also sadly announcing (along with BA) that many thousands's of staff job cuts were looming, and he added the caveat "IF we survive this''

RYR, BA, VS and EZY who all the UK's major airlines are all struggling to survive, and 1 or 2 of those may not, or they may just survive but in a very different size & form.
RYR has not as yet, said that they are seriously running out of cash but the others have.

It is awful to comment on the looming scale of job losses - My aviation career from 1972 saw almost every airline that I worked for go bust in one form or another, often without telling me or without prior knowledge to make a plan.
My commiserations to all colleagues still working in our industry and humbly acknowledge this pain.

[racedo]

I agree Racedo - We, plus the aviation industry, the Economy, the Banks, will all have to press a very large Reset Button that will see the face of everything change beyond recognition to the way we lived and operated just 3 months ago.

I keep calling the restart of the economy "The Great Reboot", it will be and there will be the mother and father (other parental parings are available) of all sales from a retail perspective. All stores will have huge stocks, more stocks coming in and no sales for 2-3 months. Cash is king so getting any cash will be what is needed. Added in the significant number who are gone permanently with liquidators holding their stock and happy to get anything. Full price for anything will not happen this year.

Mate wants a new car, he fully intends to get one with a stupid price offer to dealers, if they say no he goes to the next one but as likely half the plate period will be over he sees an opportunity.

Kenny Jacobs as he was leaving Ryanair last week suggested that there would mega sales in Ryanair when thy allowed fly again. Yup I can see that happening and will use.

In tandem with "The Great Reboot" will be "The Great Reset". Many people furloughed are having best time of the lives, getting a paid holiday to sit at home and do nothing, no travelling to work, nowhere to spend money, mortgages and debts parked. A chance to sit and think where am I going in life. Many people will exit the rat race completely deciding that time to thing about what I really want to do.

There are also the many who get to work from home for the first time, realising they can be just as productive over the day and yup 9-5 may not suit but 8-8 where family time is built in and everything works around this may be a better option. The £20 a day travelling to work, 2 hours a day gone, lunches and coffee etc not bought is a bloody big saving.

It will be an interesting time for eveybody.


Who would have thought that today we would discuss here comments made from Ryanair's CEO M O'L, who said a few days ago when also sadly announcing (along with BA) that many thousands's of staff job cuts were looming, and he added the caveat "IF we survive this''

RYR, BA, VS and EZY who all the UK's major airlines are all struggling to survive, and 1 or 2 of those may not, or they may just survive but in a very different size & form.
RYR has not as yet, said that they are seriously running out of cash but the others have.

MOL is often the canary in the mine, he is also used by others to be so because they cannot say what he says. Every body plays a part and he pushes the envelope. All airline bosses speak and they meet at trade events. In ensuring a cartel doesn't emerge you can bet all meetings are written up afterwards. It doesn't mean all agree with each other but one issue for one will likely affect all.


It is awful to comment on the looming scale of job losses - My aviation career from 1972 saw almost every airline that I worked for go bust in one form or another, often without telling me or without prior knowledge to make a plan.
My commiserations to all colleagues still working in our industry and humbly acknowledge this pain.

Bloody Jonah.................... only joking.

Post 9/11 the industry looked dead but in Europe it was Ryanair who bet the farm. They are less risk takers now but will go all in.

[SWBKCB]

Oh I get you BUT many people have influencers on their lives, they may want to go but the influencers start saying "No", "Too risky" etc etc. Talking on zoom (other services are available) is ok but sitting in a group at a bar and coversation goes everywhere and someone suggests something, bar person chips in saying X was great, etc etc and a plan starts. Just a wee bit harder on zoom etc.

Of course the same thing happens in the work enviroment - some of the best work is done outside formal meetings, sitting round with a cup of coffee and going "what if we did..."

[racedo]

Of course the same thing happens in the work enviroment - some of the best work is done outside formal meetings, sitting round with a cup of coffee and going "what if we did..."

:ok:

Once got a software guy to save £130k a year by telling him this can't be done, cost £120 in overtime and he knew his boss claimed it was impossible at a meeting 2 hrs before. A week later his boss took the credit for it being done as said he had a chance to review it. We both knew the truth but he needed the win more than I did, happy to trade for the cooperation door that it opened as well.

[Sober Lark]

Having given it thought I'm OK taking accepting vouchers for cancelled flights rather than refunds. I'm using the vouchers to purchase future flights today knowing I'm probably buying at inflated prices before any anticipated seat sale but what bugs me here in Ireland is our health Minister stated the public won't be travelling this year! He said something along the lines its not looking good for any foreign travel this year. He stated why take a two week holiday in the sun and then face 2 weeks of quarantine when you get back? Now he's really trying my patience.

[commit aviation]

Grant Shapps did something similar here in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52519340

This week we are due to get some clarity on the way forward with the various papers which the government are preparing to publish. If a 2 week quarantine period is introduced that would pretty much squash any chance of overseas holidays for most this summer but at least holiday companies and the travelling public will have some thing to build their future plans around.

[OzzyOzBorn]

That proposed 14-day mandatory quarantine period will kill virtually all passenger air travel stone dead. What business executive can travel on those terms? What employee can return home from their annual holiday only to phone into work to say they're in great health but they're entering two weeks of quarantine? This proposal would be quite catastrophic for economic recovery, let alone for the commercial aviation industry.

Practical measures with quantifiable payback make sense. Blunt instrument proposals do not. Arriving passengers should be administered a quick C-19 test, should install an NHS 'track and trace' app on their phone, and should wear a face mask in public spaces. Most passengers would accept these measures as enduring the inconvenience makes sense for the greater good. Compulsory quarantine for all will simply destroy the airline industry and hugely damage the wider economy. And I'm very sceptical whether it would prevent any significant C-19 risk over and above the sensible measures just outlined.

The airline industry must lobby with urgency for common sense solutions only.

[racedo]

That proposed 14-day mandatory quarantine period will kill virtually all passenger air travel stone dead. What business executive can travel on those terms? What employee can return home from their annual holiday only to phone into work to say they're in great health but they're entering two weeks of quarantine? This proposal would be quite catastrophic for economic recovery, let alone for the commercial aviation industry.

Practical measures with quantifiable payback make sense. Blunt instrument proposals do not. Arriving passengers should be administered a quick C-19 test, should install an NHS 'track and trace' app on their phone, and should wear a face mask in public spaces. Most passengers would accept these measures as enduring the inconvenience makes sense for the greater good. Compulsory quarantine for all will simply destroy the airline industry and hugely damage the wider economy. And I'm very sceptical whether it would prevent any significant C-19 risk over and above the sensible measures just outlined.

The airline industry must lobby with urgency for common sense solutions only.

Govts want to be seen to do something.................... horse has long streaked out of the stable, through the meadow and way into the mountains so now is time to paint the stable and think about a lock.

[vikingivesterled]

That proposed 14-day mandatory quarantine period will kill virtually all passenger air travel stone dead. What business executive can travel on those terms? What employee can return home from their annual holiday only to phone into work to say they're in great health but they're entering two weeks of quarantine? This proposal would be quite catastrophic for economic recovery, let alone for the commercial aviation industry.


Since most other contries are also following the 2 week quarantine rule your holliday would most likely be spent in quarantine there as well. So by going on a 2 week foreign holliday you are comitting to 4 weeks of quarantine. I thought most would have had to much of quarantining already by now to go for that. Who will be flying are excempts and they who go for work purpose for much more than 2 weeks..
We will have to wait and see what the tourist ministers of Europe come to in their get together. Some countries completely depending on the tourist industry for most of their income are pressing for some arrangement, possibly that some complete resorts are seen as quarantine zones. Probably starting with reciprocal arrangements between neighbours. But the risks are that rules suddenly change while you are away, or when you are waiting for your booked holliday to begin and you are denied a quick refund. Ref the company who's name this thread bears. That 6 month refund delay could certainly come back and bite Ryanair, and other airlines, in the proverbials when it comes to future bookings in uncertain times.

[ericlday]

The 14 day quarantine will not be a problem with those who own property and stay for months at a time, this certainly is the case where I stay in Tenerife.

[SWBKCB]

The 14 day quarantine will not be a problem with those who own property and stay for months at a time, this certainly is the case where I stay in Tenerife.

But how big a market is that?

[ericlday]

Difficult to quantify but once they are here for the winter only the occasional trip back to uk to visit family is made, probably not a great number to support the pre covid flight schedules.

[Sober Lark]

Good evening Leo Hairy Camel. For those of us who see the advantages of supporting the future of cheap air travel, we need vouchers with a greater validity than just 12 months.

[racedo]

Good evening Leo Hairy Camel. For those of us who see the advantages of supporting the future of cheap air travel, we need vouchers with a greater validity than just 12 months.

Vocuhers are valid for 12 months, which means you have up to April 2021 to book a flight likely going as far as March 2022.

In the event that vouchers have not been used at the end of the expiry period you will get what ever is left over, back as cash.

[SWBKCB]

Ryanair is to reinstate flights across some 90% of its network from the beginning of July, with an ambitious bid to restore an air transport operation demolished by the coronavirus crisis.

While much of the network will be available, with most bases active, the overall schedule – around 1,000 daily flights – will only amount to 40% of the airline’s normal flying timetable.

“There will be fewer daily [and] weekly frequencies on trunk routes, as Ryanair works to restore some services on the widest number of routes, rather than operating high frequency services on a small number,” the carrier states.

“While temperature checks and face masks [or] coverings are the cornerstone of this healthy return to service, social distancing at airports and on board aircraft will be encouraged where it is possible,” it adds. This means avoiding queues and crowding, particularly during boarding.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/ryanair-aims-to-re-open-most-of-its-network-from-1-july/138328.article

[vinnym]

Just heard Michael O’Leary interviewed on BBC, was amazed he said that it would be important that families sit together, says the man who split families up if they didn’t cough up to pre book seats.
The report also stated that there would be no queuing for the toilet, then O’Leary says he will sell all seats on planes, what a contradiction. So it’s all right to be crammed together but not to queue for the loo.

[lfc84]

Just heard Michael O’Leary interviewed on BBC, was amazed he said that it would be important that families sit together, says the man who split families up if they didn’t cough up to pre book seats.
The report also stated that there would be no queuing for the toilet, then O’Leary says he will sell all seats on planes, what a contradiction. So it’s all right to be crammed together but not to queue for the loo.
imagine telling a 6 year old he can't go to the toilet

[Sharklet_321]

Ryanair were planning to start up flying in May. It got pushed to June.
Ryanair were planning to start up flying in June. It got pushed to July.

Suddenly the media go crazy and say things are getting back to normal in July.

We will likely see the same spin from Ryanair next month as they delay again, then push things back. In the meantime won't offer refunds for 6 months.

[LTNman]

Reading some of the posts here you would think that Ryanair was an airline that just operated routes out of the UK. It is a European airline that will make decisions based on all of its markets.

[ATNotts]

Reading some of the posts here you would think that Ryanair was an airline that just operated routes out of the UK. It is a European airline that will make decisions based on all of its markets.

Exactly that. The fact the UK is making some slightly questionable decisions is somewhat irrelevant, with the very likely relaxation of cross border leisure travel rules within much of Europe Ryanair should easily be able to restore 40% of it's services without increasing flights out of the UK at all.

O'Leary was very bullish regarding the enforcability of the UK quarantine rules, if they come in, and claims they will run from the UK to the usual sunshine destinations. If however the UK government persists with it's travel advisories, then any passengers traveling against that advice will find themselves without insurance, which for many will be a deal breaker. Would I book a flight with anyone before the routes start operating? Frankly, no!

[Sharklet_321]

Perhaps O'Leary is also having to concede that his counterpart at Wizz is appeaing more bullish and now has to play catch up

[LTNman]

Any passengers traveling against that advice will find themselves without insurance.

Anyone booking a holiday or a flight post mid March won't have any cover for Covid 19 regardless of any government advice. That would include having to go into self isolation regardless of symptoms due to being in close contact with a carrier in the 2 weeks up to the start of the flight.

[toledoashley]

Would add to that, there are many travel insurance policies which will cover you for FCO advise saying ‘all but essential travel’. I have a client who has travelled to Iraq under ‘all but essential’ and was covered.

[jdcg]

People were given the choice and they took it. If they wished to sit together then they could.
Well. Not really. It was more if you don't pay extra then we'll put you at opposite ends of the plane to your spouse or anyone else who's company you might expressly have chosen to travel with. The algorithms were specifically changed to "socially distance" us from someone we loved and place us next to a stranger. O'Leary is a gob****e. Don't defend the indefensible

[vinnym]

Well. Not really. It was more if you don't pay extra then we'll put you at opposite ends of the plane to your spouse or anyone else who's company you might expressly have chosen to travel with. The algorithms were specifically changed to "socially distance" us from someone we loved and place us next to a stranger. O'Leary is a gob****e. Don't defend the indefensible

👍👍👍 Couldnt agree more

[mwm991]

Does someone have the up to date list of the number of based aircraft at each airport in the UK? I can't seem to find it on here, but I'm not sure the list I'm thinking of was up to date anyway.

[Plane mad 134]

Does someone have the up to date list of the number of based aircraft at each airport in the UK? I can't seem to find it on here, but I'm not sure the list I'm thinking of was up to date anyway.

EDI is 9x based usually, with 6 based this July due to the virus. PIK I believe is 2x aircraft in the summer and BOH is 1x based. Not so sure about the rest.

[Teaboy24]

LTN x 6 based

[EIFFS]

Let's just remind ourselves that the right to a refund for a cancelled flight is the law !!

He should be removed from the board of FR he is not a fit person to run an airline, either that or get the EU to remove FR's AoC unless it complies with its legal obligations

[BACsuperVC10]

Does someone have the up to date list of the number of based aircraft at each airport in the UK? I can't seem to find it on here, but I'm not sure the list I'm thinking of was up to date anyway.

Liverpool is 3

[Mr A Tis]

Not very encouraging for those who may chance a booking in July : https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/ryanair-tell-customer-we-not-18260532?fbclid=IwAR042PYBMPBTT43oaJkDOfpaZpyY25VupQuaGLzunA BDGQLpX2IRqth3dbQ

[davidjohnson6]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/ryanair-to-run-just-enough-flights-to-fk-you-over-20200513196383

Note - this is a satire site, so don't take it too seriously if you're a lawyer...

[Dannyboy39]

Not very encouraging for those who may chance a booking in July : https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/ryanair-tell-customer-we-not-18260532?fbclid=IwAR042PYBMPBTT43oaJkDOfpaZpyY25VupQuaGLzunA BDGQLpX2IRqth3dbQ
Because airlines are realising that it’s cheaper to operate a flight empty and move the problem onto insurance companies, rather than refund everyone.

[BasilFawlty]

Does someone have the up to date list of the number of based aircraft at each airport in the UK? I can't seem to find it on here, but I'm not sure the list I'm thinking of was up to date anyway.
Last summer it was the following (not including spares):
BHX 4
BOH 1
BRS 4
EDI 8
EMA 9
LPL 4
MAN 12
PIK 3
SEN 3
STN 40

[LTNman]

You can add 6 to that list for Luton. Ryanair have said they will be closing some UK bases so it will all change at some point. So which UK bases are loss making?

[BHX5DME]

You can add 6 to that list for Luton. Ryanair have said they will be closing some UK bases so it will all change at some point. So which UK bases are loss making? Well worth a watch
https://investor.ryanair.com/results/fy-20-results/

[LTNman]

Seems that Ryanair or is it their staff are threatening passengers with being blacklisted for going to their credit and debit card companies and trying to get a charge back, as they claim this is fraudulent activity. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/05/ryanair-staff-wrongly-tell-customers--chargeback-is-fraud--and-c/

[racedo]

Seems that Ryanair or is it their staff are threatening passengers with being blacklisted for going to their credit and debit card companies and trying to get a charge back, as they claim this is fraudulent activity.

A member of staff telling somebody something wrong is sadly a normal event.

It would only become a fraudulent activity if a passenger gets a voucher, claims back from their CC company and then decides to use the voucher anyway.

Customer service people making it up is the stuff of nightmares from every employer who has ever dealth with people online.

[LTNman]

The issue is that this is not a one off. Seems that a staff briefing has possibly taken place on how to play hardball as this has happened during phone calls and live chat. Ryanair has form when it comes to pushing their own agenda and ignoring the law.

[racedo]

The issue is that this is not a one off. Seems that a staff briefing has possibly taken place on how to play hardball as this has happened during phone calls and live chat. Ryanair has form when it comes to pushing their own agenda and ignoring the law.

A couple of people off their own bat deciding to make something up and go with it is not the airline doing it.

Call centres don't record calls to assist callers, the do it to ensure people follow the script they given and limit what employees claim..

[occasional]

Anyone know what Ryanair are up to with existing bookings ? I received an email changing my flight times on a June booking about a week ago, but the original flight times appear to be still on sale.
Edit. Now told that the flight was changed and then reinstated, but for some reason, no second email.

[LTNman]

Travelling against government advice will void any travel insurance. The best bit is that the insurance Ryanair are selling with their tickets are also void.

[hec7or]

Travelling against government advice will void any travel insurance. The best bit is that the insurance Ryanair are selling with their tickets are also void.

which a lot of Ryanair passengers don’t buy anyway

[lfc84]

which a lot of Ryanair passengers don’t buy anyway
have you got any data on that ?

[hec7or]

have you got any data on that ?

Ryanair flies all over Europe, not just holiday flights. The Sun article was referring mainly to UK holidaymakers who are around 40% of Ryanair's revenue and a great many of them have their own policies and don't need to purchase the Ryanair product
Many of the Europeans flying domestically or within Europe rely on their EHIC.
quod est manifesto

[Severn]

The following routes start from UK airports over the next week (some even from tomorrow - Sunday 21 June):

BHX - AGP, ALC & BCN
BOH - AGP
BRS - AGP & ALC
EDI - AGP, ALC, BCN, BUD & SXF
EMA - AGP, ALC & PMI
GLA - AGP & ALC
LBA - AGP
LPL - AGP & ALC
LTN - AGP & ALC
NCL - ALC
MAN - ACE, AGP, ALC, BCN, BGY, BUD, CIA, CRL, FAO, FUE, IBZ, LIS, MAD, MXP, PMI, PRG, SXF & TFS
PIK - AGP
(Didn't count STN, but I'm sure it's the same picture)

Most other routes then return from the beginning of July

[ATNotts]

Ryanair flies all over Europe, not just holiday flights. The Sun article was referring mainly to UK holidaymakers who are around 40% of Ryanair's revenue and a great many of them have their own policies and don't need to purchase the Ryanair product
Many of the Europeans flying domestically or within Europe rely on their EHIC.
quod est manifesto

When we travel within mainland Europe we rely on EHIC (for the next 6 months anyway) don't buy the rip off that is insurance, since insurance companies policy is to avoid paying claims at all costs. The only insurance worth having is the mandatory stuff (car insurance) the the really important stuff like your house and contents.

[MANFAN]

How do I change my flight without incurring a flight change fee charge?
I am due to travel on 10th July and want to move the flight to 10th August, but both the app and website insist on charging me £35/€35...do I have to call them?

[LTNman]

When we travel within mainland Europe we rely on EHIC (for the next 6 months anyway) don't buy the rip off that is insurance, since insurance companies policy is to avoid paying claims at all costs. The only insurance worth having is the mandatory stuff (car insurance) the the really important stuff like your house and contents.

This is very bad advice. I had an EHIC card in Spain, which was invalid, as unbeknown to me a private doctor was called by the hotel receptionist. The doctor called a private ambulance who took me to a flashy private hospital. This resulted in a fat bill that the insurance company had to pay, as I didn't touch the NHS equivalent in Spain. If I had needed to be brought home on a medical flight EHIC would not cover that either.

Whether anyone has Covid 19 cover is another story so is a valid point.

[ATNotts]

This is very bad advice. I had an EHIC card in Spain, which was invalid, as unbeknown to me a private doctor was called by the hotel receptionist. The doctor called a private ambulance who took me to a flashy private hospital. This resulted in a fat bill that the insurance company had to pay, as I didn't touch the NHS equivalent in Spain. If I had needed to be brought home on a medical flight EHIC would not cover that either.

Whether anyone has Covid 19 cover is another story so is a valid point.

I would add that we drive rather than fly. We had cause to use the German system on one occasions and cannot speak too highly of it; I have however heard second hand that the Spanish public system isn't much to be written home about. i guess it's about where you're going, and what your perception of risk is. Touch wood, we've been travelling to northern Eurore sans insurance for knocking on 15 years now, but when we've travelled further afield, and especially offshore, we do invest in travel insurance.

[SealinkBF]

When we travel within mainland Europe we rely on EHIC (for the next 6 months anyway) don't buy the rip off that is insurance, since insurance companies policy is to avoid paying claims at all costs. The only insurance worth having is the mandatory stuff (car insurance) the the really important stuff like your house and contents.

Terrible advice. EHIC doesn’t get you home if the worst happens.

[ATNotts]

Terrible advice. EHIC doesn’t get you home if the worst happens.

Being flipant.....not entirely certain I'd want to come back.

[SealinkBF]

Being flipant.....not entirely certain I'd want to come back.

I understand! 🤩

[LBIA]

260 at risk jobs saved after Ryanair pilots agree to 20% pay cut.
A further 70 jobs still at risk with possible 4+ base closures at Leeds Bradford, Prestwick, Southend & Bournemouth.

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Ryanair-pilots-vote-to-accept-temporary-pay-cuts-t

[ericlday]

Out of 29 arrivals into TFS today 15 are Ryanair.......welcome back

[racedo]

Out of 29 arrivals into TFS today 15 are Ryanair.......welcome back

Tempted for late August....... regular place I do each winter.

[ericlday]

Tempted for late August....... regular place I do each winter.
No new cases for umpteen days and 22 days without Covid death in Tenerife......slowly getting there.

The Canary Islands has registered 22 days without any death and only one person is being cared for in ICU in Gran Canaria.

[TOM100]

FR just seem to be getting on with it trying to get people moving again (I know it is a commercial decision) good on them. I suspect they may be picking up not the usual FR users which must be helpful....

[AirportPlanner1]

I suspect they may be picking up not the usual FR users which must be helpful....

Mr Johnson Snr’s infamous journey was apparently with Wizz...

[MARKEYD]

Any more news about the potential closure of the 4 UK bases recently talked about
I understand cabin crew have also now come to an agreement but nothing more about closing bases

[Dropoffcharge]

Any more news about the potential closure of the 4 UK bases recently talked about
I understand cabin crew have also now come to an agreement but nothing more about closing bases

This was all back in May, but news of it only released a few weeks back, was all "if's and Could's" at the time, think the agreement to take the 20% reduction by FD and CC has probably taken the heat of the possible base closures for the time being, especially as the aircraft are now back in the skies.

[LTNman]

Make a public announcement about potentially closing UK bases, stand back, and wait for the even more generous discounts to role in from worried airports. Cleaver people at Ryanair.

[Link Kilo]

Cleaver people at Ryanair.

A strangely apt typo! From Wikipedia "A cleaver is a large knife that varies in its shape but usually resembles a rectangular-bladed hatchet. It is largely used as a kitchen or butcher knife intended for hacking through bone." Have they hacked through the bones of the affected airports?

[toledoashley]

Make a public announcement about potentially closing UK bases, stand back, and wait for the even more generous discounts to role in from worried airports. Cleaver people at Ryanair.

Divide and conquer

[MANFAN]

I today flew on EI-DAS one of the older aircraft in the fleet, and out of curiosity I was wondering why the word Ryanair was not painted on the winglet. Was the winglet retrofitted onto this aircraft or just not painted during original installation?
I flew on a newer aircraft last week and that seemed to be in a worse state both inside and outside than the older aircraft I flew on today, maybe DAS had a paint job recently?

[LGS6753]

EI-DAS was not delivered with winglets.

[davidjohnson6]

Beeb reports FR to close their Hahn base because staff based there wouldn't accept paycut. Any merit to FR's claim or was it the proposed paycut was deliberately severe in the hope that pilots/cabin crew would say no, and FR would have an excuse to close a base that has shrunk significantly over the last 10 years while Frankfurt's main airport, FRA, has grown ?

[southside bobby]

Lauda Europe.

The Group has announced that Laudamotion will be no more from the end of the year and will instead be subsumed into a new entity to be known and operate as Lauda Europe with a Maltese AOC resulting in the A320 fleet being re-registered from OE- to 9H.

So a second 9H- division for the Group and a blow for Austrian regulators and Austrian taxation income.

[LTNman]

Ryanair reregistering aircraft to other countries reminds me of ship owners registering ships to Liberia that have never been to the country.

[racedo]

Ryanair reregistering aircraft to other countries reminds me of ship owners registering ships to Liberia that have never been to the country.

Hardly as while ship ownership and crewing is very much unregulated the aviation setctor is highly regulated across EU specifically as registration is still EU.

Bearing in mind there will be little flying this year then the "Brand value" of a legacy name may have little going forward.

[SWBKCB]

Bearing in mind there will be little flying this year then the "Brand value" of a legacy name may have little going forward.

Do you think the "brand" will erode that quickly?

[racedo]

Do you think the "brand" will erode that quickly?

The Lauda one, the answer is yes.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I have always been one of the first to acknowledge Ryanair for their business acumen if not always their ethics. However, their decision to penalise early-bookers in the current climate leaves me scratching my head. Surely early booking customers are valuable to an airline business: their monies paid are in the cash pool for longer which has to be a good thing for an airline. And early bookings help to underpin certainty of operation.

But Ryanair management has chosen to throw early bookers under the proverbial bus. Those who booked after June 10th are to be treated completely differently. Now - I'm not just moaning here. As a very frequent traveller with Ryanair, I hold bookings under both sets of rules. Though I can't see why it makes sense for a business to stitch-up its early-booking customers and make additional allowances only for those who booked late. Sure, the late-bookers will be well disposed to deliver repeat business, but the early-bookers will be wholly unimpressed, and their future business risks being lost entirely.

One of my (many) Ryanair bookings made for this year has just fallen foul of this two-tier policy. I had a MAN-KIR-MAN booking due to fly later this week: it was booked early. But passengers arriving in Eire are currently required by law to self-isolate for 14 days which makes this short break trip impossible to do in practice. I did not want a refund: I wanted to re-date my flights to future replacement dates when (hopefully) the Irish government will have lifted the quarantine rule.

I priced up alternative flights for 18-21 March 2021. If booking these flights afresh as a completely new booking, the price quote is £117.68 for the 'standard' rate which includes priority and two bags. So how much to CHANGE my existing August booking made on the same fare basis to these same March 2021 dates? Answer: £104 supplement over fare originally paid, which is made up of £90 change fee plus £7 and £7 for fare difference on each sector. That £90 change fee alone is actually more than the cost of the entire original booking. Now, if the supplement for the date change was limited to the £14 fare difference, I'd rebook without a second thought. But a NINETY POUNDS change fee? Come on ...

I enquired about the situation via the Ryanair Chatbox at around 14:40 yesterday and was referred to the customer service agent queue. By end of hours at 21:00 there had been no response at all.

So today I phoned Ryanair to ask them about this, as the website homepage suggests free date changes if your travel is impacted by COVID-19. I think Eire's 14-day compulsory isolation rule should fall squarely into that category. But I was told that the fee-free date change only applies to BOOKINGS MADE AFTER JUNE 10th. Why this cut-off? It makes no sense. And I do hold other bookings which will benefit from the post June 10th guarantee, by the way.

Obviously, my decision based on this is no new booking to Kerry. Why would I take the risk, when I can't forecast when the Irish Government will lift their quarantine rule anyway? And I certainly don't trust Ryanair not to stitch me up again in similar circumstances.

So here's the score. Ryanair get to keep my fare for this week's Kerry flights. Well done revenue management team: what a win!

But here's the other side of that deal. I do around 40 Ryanair sectors in a typical year. I currently hold around £400 in vouchers from flights cancelled by Ryanair themselves earlier this year. I was planning to use those to make new bookings. But not now. Not after this stitch-up. Why would I trust them with early bookings again when people who booked after June 10th have not been subjected to this stitch-up? No ... I'll now sit back and let my original money paid out to me flow back as these vouchers hit their one year anniversary dates. Beyond this, I'll continue to book Ryanair where they're the only operator on a route but choose the alternative whenever available (unless it is Air Europa who make Ryanair look like saints!). Bookings made by me (including for friends and family) generally amount to around £3000-worth of business in a typical year. I'd reckon they can forget around two-thirds of this going forward, in favour of airlines which have treated me well through this crisis. Roll of honour includes: SAS, Aer Lingus, British Airways, EasyJet, Iberia Express, Air Baltic, Austrian Airlines, Lufthansa, TAP, TAP Express, Norwegian, WizzAir (yes, they got it right too!). Still waiting on Belavia, though time is still on their side.

So the customer has plenty of more trustworthy alternatives to consider if Ryanair wishes to pursue their rip-off change-fee policy ... Why do this???

[davidjohnson6]

If FR don't allow some sort of changeability in tickets, there would be far fewer new bookings being made at the moment. Bookings made before 10 June are already paid - if they relax the terms now, then lots of people will defer their flights for summer 2020 to something in 2021 instead, leaving seats in S20 no longer generating revenue. Once an airline has your money, they will only relax the terms if they can't deliver their side of the contract. If they haven't got your money yet, then it is in the airline's interest to find the way to squeeze maximum revenue out of you - if that means relaxing the terms, then so be it

May not be nice, but I imagine right now FR are managing, to some extent around cashflow

[1sky]

So the customer has plenty of more trustworthy alternatives to consider if Ryanair wishes to pursue their rip-off change-fee policy ... Why do this???

You make some very fair points.

The real issue I see is that we have regulators who let airlines get away with this kind of crap. Large corporations are allowed to manage the business risk associated to COVID-19 (for example by re-scheduling or cancelling flights with far fewer consequences than normal), while consumers have no such leeway when they are individually impacted by the situation.

In today's environment and uncertainty, there is absolutely no reason to advance money to airlines for flights operating a few months down the line.

[OzzyOzBorn]

If FR don't allow some sort of changeability in tickets, there would be far fewer new bookings being made at the moment. Bookings made before 10 June are already paid - if they relax the terms now, then lots of people will defer their flights for summer 2020 to something in 2021 instead, leaving seats in S20 no longer generating revenue. Once an airline has your money, they will only relax the terms if they can't deliver their side of the contract. If they haven't got your money yet, then it is in the airline's interest to find the way to squeeze maximum revenue out of you - if that means relaxing the terms, then so be it

May not be nice, but I imagine right now FR are managing, to some extent around cashflow

Yes, I fully appreciate the need for travel providers to protect themselves from straightforward "disinclination to travel". The penalty for that reasonably falls to the customer. But we need to differentiate between that group and those who are forced to stay away by order of the government in the jurisdiction they're booked to visit.

Right now, if you arrive at an airport in Eire with the intention of staying overnight, you will be ordered to shut yourself away in a hotel room for 14 days of self-isolation whilst arranging to have food and supplies delivered to yourself all at your own expense. Now that isn't my idea of a holiday, and I don't believe that even Mr and Mrs O' Leary would be tempted to travel on those terms. It is quite different from someone who decides they just don't fancy a trip away right now when their booked destination is fully-open for business.

Note that I'm not even talking about cancellation and refund. I'm calling for a waiver of the rip-off change-fee which prevents the customer from saving their trip by switching to replacement dates after the quarantine rule is lifted. The airline still keeps both the original fare paid and the difference between that and the new fare under these circumstances. So the pain is shared around, and customer goodwill is preserved. That seems a reasonable compromise to me. How can a £90 change fee on top of this be justified?

In the absence of that compromise, I for one cannot trust Ryanair with any new advanced bookings. And that will be my advice to family and friends too. This also has implications for the company's bottom line.

[Sober Lark]

Out of necessity I travel DUB-FRA and paid only €9.99 each way. Fill out a 'COVID-19 Passenger Locator Form' accurately on arrival and hand it in to passport control. I've never been followed up on and no one shuts you up in a hotel room. Why would I need to pay a change fee when I can purchase a new ticket cheaper?

[ericlday]

I needed to change my flight to Tenerife on 26th August to late September, at £19.99 for new flight there was no way I would entertain their change fee.....

[OzzyOzBorn]

Fill out a 'COVID-19 Passenger Locator Form' accurately on arrival and hand it in to passport control. I've never been followed up on and no one shuts you up in a hotel room.

The situation is very different for visitors such as myself. You list your location as 'Dublin', so presumably you are based at your own accommodation which you call "home". A tourist flouting lockdown in a rural town such as Killarney would surely risk attracting the attention of the local Gardai. Apart from which, just what is actually open in Killarney? Are the 'Ring of Kerry' excursions actually running? Maybe they are - for Irish residents - but I'm sure a "self-isolating" tourist would be noticed.

No, for visiting tourists, Eire is not a viable option at present. If you want to enjoy a holiday, you must break the law. This is why it is so disappointing that Ryanair will not waive change fees for customers blindsided by this - not refunds, just a waiver of the arbitrary £90 change-fee. For a change which you organise yourself online and print on your own paper with your own ink using your own equipment. No interaction by Ryanair staff. Why a £90 charge for this?

Well, I remind Mr O' Leary and co of the decals he once applied to EI-EXF. "U Nevr Beat D Irish!" Now it just so happens that there's quite a bit of Irish blood in me ... like 100% of it actually. And I don't intend to be beaten by Ryanair on this one. Don't get angry, get even! I have devised a strategy to to do exactly that.

The fare on which I feel "done" by Ryanair was £51.95. Not a large sum financially, but I hate being ripped off. It's the principle of it. So I've decided to divert 20x this sum away from Ryanair in retaliation. In coming months, this means diverting £1039.00 which would have been spent with Ryanair to bookings with alternative carriers. Sending them to the proverbial 'sin-bin' for a while.

Now, of course, I recognise that this is only a gesture to a company the size of Ryanair. But I remind them that many other customers who booked flights on 'self-isolation' routes pre June 10th will also feel aggrieved by Ryanair's no-compromise indifference. If a good proportion of these also adopt an "anyone but Ryanair" attitude for a while, those £90 change fees will prove to have been an expensive misjudgment.

[1sky]

In Ireland, is it a law or a recommendation?

[LTNman]

There has got to be questions asked about Ryanair and other airlines continuing to operate services to travel ban destinations just to avoid giving passengers their money back. I know of a couple where money is tight who have lost £700 as they could not travel without insurance. The bonus for Ryanair is that they get to keep government passenger taxes, don’t pay out any passenger handling charges or passenger airport fees for no show passengers.

[Dannyboy39]

There has got to be questions asked about Ryanair and other airlines continuing to operate services to travel ban destinations just to avoid giving passengers their money back. I know of a couple where money is tight who have lost £700 as they could not travel without insurance. The bonus for Ryanair is that they get to keep government passenger taxes, don’t pay out any passenger handling charges or passenger airport fees for no show passengers.
Wizz have been doing this since 1st May - it’s cheaper to fly the aircraft empty than return 180 passengers their money back. I’m surprised other airlines hadn’t thought of this.

[davidjohnson6]

It's business... nothing personal, just business

[OzzyOzBorn]

It's business... nothing personal, just business

Maybe so. But every business transaction requires a counterparty. A well-run business will keep the customer wanting to come back for more.

[southside bobby]

Well truthfully that`s just about best answer I have seen in many a long day...

[JSCL]

I don’t see any problem in them still flying, these places aren’t ‘banned’, there’s just a new quarantine requirement. A flight to Alicante from Manchester with FR post-quarantine imposed still had 160pax on board.

People want to and will still travel now as this has gone on for too long, people are fed up of being stuck in their respective countries.

[Mr A Tis]

these places aren’t ‘banned’, there’s just a new quarantine requirement

Except that is not true.
Here is the FCO latest travel advice...


From 27 July, the FCO advise against all non-essential travel to Spain, including the Balearic and Canary Islands, based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks in the country.

So yes, not banned but against the UK FCO advice & will impact most travel insurances. A holiday is NOT essential travel.

[paully]

Except that is not true.
Here is the FCO latest travel advice...




So yes, not banned but against the UK FCO advice & will impact most travel insurances. A holiday is NOT essential travel.

Can`t help but wonder how many people jumping on a plane and off to the sun have twigged that their travel insurance (often annual policies) will be null and void if they travel against FCO advice...A bet a lot haven`t.

[davidjohnson6]

I bet a lot have twigged that their insurance is not valid, but have decided to chance it anyway, with the corollary they will say 'nobody told me' if they need to claim and the insuree declines to pay

[DC3 Dave]

I bet a lot have twigged that their insurance is not valid, but have decided to chance it anyway, with the corollary they will say 'nobody told me' if they need to claim and the insuree declines to pay

It seems the majority are going to forgo insurance as they can’t find insurers willing to cover Covid 19.


https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2042905

[Dannyboy39]

It seems the majority are going to forgo insurance as they can’t find insurers willing to cover Covid 19.


https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2042905
To be fair, in places like Spain there is a reciprocal health agreement in place as part of being in the EU - the insurers don’t cover it because there is no charge. So what is the value of insurance?

Oh.....

[inOban]

Our EHIC cards are valid until the end of the year. But they don't cover everything, including I assume repatriation.

[JSCL]

Interesting observations on insurance, but not strictly true. I had an email from my bank about my insurance only the other day, they will cover ALL travel including to FCO exempt countries for COVID related medical but will only cover trip cancellation IF


are refused boarding of your flight due to having symptoms of COVID-19
or a close family member contract COVID-19 or where you or a travelling companion are advised to self-isolate when you're due to travel.



The landscape is changing with insurers. The perceived financial risk of contracting COVID during travel is actually less now than financial risk of you wanting to claim for cost of travel. I understand why they do this and it’s the same reason that Governments globally wont bail out the airlines a second time ( or first in some cases ) in that this first hit was unexpected, nobody saw it coming. But if you book travel now, you do so knowing it’s a risk so they aren’t going to cover you if you decide actually you want to cancel the trip off your own steam.

[LTNman]

To be fair, in places like Spain there is a reciprocal health agreement in place as part of being in the EU - the insurers don’t cover it because there is no charge. So what is the value of insurance?

Oh.....

I have pointed this out on another thread that while sitting around a swimming pool in Spain I was taken ill. The hotel receptionist called out a private doctor no doubt for a backhander. He called out a private ambulance for I guess another backhander which took me to a plush 5 star hospital.

I was lying there thinking how marvellous their equivalent of the NHS was. If never occurred to me that I was raking up a 4 figure bill and was being treated privately. It was only later on my return to the UK that I found out when the bill arrived. As for my EU medical card, it was worthless. As for my insurance, it was priceless.

[AirportPlanner1]

Insurers will start covering Covid 19, for simple reason that they themselves will need the cash. If people don’t travel, they have no business

[richardwpprn]

....The hotel receptionist called out a private doctor no doubt for a backhander. He called out a private ambulance for I guess another backhander....

It’s generally well known that this goes on. Your EHIC card is useful if you know how to use it.

[racedo]

I don’t see any problem in them still flying, these places aren’t ‘banned’, there’s just a new quarantine requirement. A flight to Alicante from Manchester with FR post-quarantine imposed still had 160pax on board.

People want to and will still travel now as this has gone on for too long, people are fed up of being stuck in their respective countries.

It is the ultimate "Project Fear", Govt say something and everybody rushes to conform.

Local Teresco (other crappy stores also available) had a lady berating security day of compulsory mask being introduced, crying that said person is infecting everybody by not wearing a mask. Security being more mature and experienced just asked, "At midnight did said gent become more infectious that yesterday because no masks were compulsory ?". Lady responded " Well government made it compulsory so you as security must do it and throw people out of the store". The security response of "Well I have not received the memo yet but we are apparently getting guns to shoot people as well" got a "oh good" and the lady walked away seemingly happy, with security wondering is this Walmart.

An inept Govt who has no clue has done more damage than coronavirus.

[racedo]

I have pointed this out on another thread that while sitting around a swimming pool in Spain I was taken ill. The hotel receptionist called out a private doctor no doubt for a backhander. He called out a private ambulance for I guess another backhander which took me to a plush 5 star hospital.

I was lying there thinking how marvellous their equivalent of the NHS was. If never occurred to me that I was raking up a 4 figure bill and was being treated privately. It was only later on my return to the UK that I found out when the bill arrived. As for my EU medical card, it was worthless. As for my insurance, it was priceless.

More like wanting to get guest best and quickest treatment possible.

If it was NHS would you rather wait hours for an ambulance and hours on a trolley ?

[LTNman]

I was more than happy with the service I received. The point to the tale was that insurance saved the day as I was in no position to question what was happening to me. Relying on the EU medical card carries its own risks and it is something people need to consider. If folk are happy at the cost of repatriation flights and medical bills why indeed should they bother with insurance if they think nothing will happen to them.

[fireflybob]

I had an email from my bank about my insurance only the other day, they will cover ALL travel including to FCO exempt countries for COVID related medical

JCSL, which bank is that?

[fireflybob]

Also the Canaries have recently taken out a block insurance for all visitors to their islands to cover if taken ill with Covid19 whilst there. You have to be staying in a hotel or equivalent (not sure whether AirBnB counts?) and obviously it doesn't cover if you've travelled there after a positive test. This covers any visitors whether Spanish or not and they have initially taken this out for a year.

[JSCL]

JCSL, which bank is that?
Its a managed account with an offshore bank. Not a UK one, but it also a recognised name in UK highstreet banking, even if they're technically different businesses.

[TOM100]

There are now some insurance providers, providing cover to those destinations in Europe eg France & Spain that are on the quarantine list - I just got quote for Spain £25 - including medical and repatriation. Companies are adapting to the new ‘normal’.

[wowzz]

Also the Canaries have recently taken out a block insurance for all visitors to their islands to cover if taken ill with Covid19 whilst there. You have to be staying in a hotel or equivalent (not sure whether AirBnB counts?) and obviously it doesn't cover if you've travelled there after a positive test. This covers any visitors whether Spanish or not and they have initially taken this out for a year.
The issue of course is that unless you have taken out a specific new insurance policy, standard insurance policies will not cover you for any othe medical issues you may have whilst on holiday, as you have travelled against FCO advice.

[GAZMO]

From BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53787437

[LGS6753]

From Travel Mole:

Ryanair is to add more flights to Portugal after the UK government removed the destination from the list of countries from where travellers must quarantine for 14 days on returning to the UK.
It will operate an additional 14 flights a week to Faro in the Algarve from 12 UK airports between 11 September and 24 October, capitalising on demand for late summer breaks.

Increased flights to Faro
Bournemouth 4 (+1)
Bristol 6 (+1)
Cardiff 3 (+1)
Edinburgh 4 (+1)
East Midlands Airport 8 (+1)
Glasgow Prestwick 4 (+1)
Liverpool 6 (+1)
London Southend 3 (+1)
Luton 5 (+1)
Manchester 13 (+2)
Newcastle 4 (+2)
Stansted 15 (+1)

Portugal was added to the list of 'safe' destinations for UK travellers last Thursday as Croatia, Austria and Trinidad and Tobago were removed.

[LTNman]

Ryanair’s most profitable airports

https://www.anna.aero/2020/09/03/ryanairs-most-profitable-airports-identified-using-rdcs-apex-platform-which-are-in-its-top-10/

[southside bobby]

Never having been proven slow in growing out of the industry`s problems & setbacks & having considered how Ryanair would begin to take any advantage of the Pandemic catastrophe the first signs appear to have emerged today.
Ryanair is to undertake a share placing to raise Euro400m in a book building exercise to be better placed to take advantage of future opportunities including to grow the network expand it`s fleet take advantage of lower airport & a/c cost opportunities that are likely to arise.
Watching the WZZ expansion/announcement frenzy too in recent times must have been particularly galling though RYR have obviously been held back by non deliveries of the "Max" even before Covid19.

[BACsuperVC10]

New route starting 25 Oct Liverpool to Kosice in Slovakia, twice weekly.

[racedo]

Watching the WZZ expansion/announcement frenzy too in recent times must have been particularly galling though RYR have obviously been held back by non deliveries of the "Max" even before Covid19.

Doubtful because in all likelihood the Wizzair expansion plans out of LGW and others places will not occur.

It is also doubtful aside from a few big airports that slot availability will be an issue for 3 years so why go nuts when not needed.

Ryanair will be able to use existing fleet for next 2 yrs without likely needing new aircraft, there are also a lot of 738s that can be leased in very cheaply if required. The aviation market will be at 2019 levels if lucky in 2024.

[southside bobby]

Pointing out that RYR have a proven & successful track record for expanding into a downturn & that the current "catastrophe" for the industry will present many opportunities with the statement issued yesterday kinda giving those first indications.

As for new a/c & the existing fleet the MAX will be added at some stage.

Pre COVID RYR had already stated that non MAX deliveries had held back expansion plans with STN saying much the same thing for their own traffic levels.

Yes lots of availability too in the lease/purchase market which RYR indicate as well.

Perhaps not just the B738 having now A320`s & building experience with a subsidiary fleet.

Unfortunately market levels may present as pointed out but if so RYR appear to be saying they will go after a bigger share of that or any sized market then.

[racedo]

Pointing out that RYR have a proven & successful track record for expanding into a downturn & that the current "catastrophe" for the industry will present many opportunities with the statement issued yesterday kinda giving those first indications.
As for new a/c & the existing fleet the MAX will be added at some stage.
Pre COVID RYR had already stated that non MAX deliveries had held back expansion plans with STN saying much the same thing for their own traffic levels.
Yes lots of availability too in the lease/purchase market which RYR indicate as well.
Perhaps not just the B738 having now A320`s & building experience with a subsidiary fleet.
Unfortunately market levels may present as pointed out but if so RYR appear to be saying they will go after a bigger share of that or any sized market then.

Yeah some of this I can concur with. In truth the Max issue has helped Ryanair massively, the expansion planned has not occurred BUT had this expansion occurred the contaction this year would have been even bigger and more costly.

As it stands for FY2020 to March it required FR to cut back on marginal routes and maximise profitability (cash) v expansion which would have eaten cash in the shoprt term.

It is doubtful that there will be any great uptake in flights until April 2021, likely by then the Max will be flying plus Ryanair will have sucked up seasonsal leases for expansion though it is doubtful passenger numbers will be the same until 2022 but fares will be higher.

At this point in time, the longer the Max is not flying the more beneficial it is for Ryanair. The likely benefit will be in region of couple of hundred $M. It will be restructred in such a way no doubt that doesn't devalue purchase price of the Max and potentially Boeing doing something with older aircraft or writing off debt on some of the newer 738's delivered.

[southside bobby]

The "compensation" factor with the MAX clearly a priority for RYR & without doubt as the industry`s 2nd largest customer for the 737 model Boeing no matter how it is structured will be of course "looking after" RYR.

[southside bobby]

The re-registration of the OE- A320s of Laudamotion to 9H- of Lauda Europe has commenced with a 9H- example visiting STN this morning on the PMI service.

[CCFAIRPORT]

ryanair will open a new base at Paris-Beauvais with 2 based A/C and one new route to paphos

[CCFAIRPORT]

Closure from the end of october of Cork and Shannon bases ?(winter season only)

https://flyinginireland.com/2020/10/ryanair-to-close-shannon-and-cork-bases-in-october/?fbclid=IwAR1Ctmc5K1bmObG6A7D8uR6lPFrcVuyK5rwMe_fBh2fdqjDOts lGIyvG-PY

[southside bobby]

Evidently moving toward ordering up to 200 MAX a/c.

[LTNman]

Evidently moving toward ordering up to 200 MAX a/c.

Master plan involves calling the aircraft something else to hide the fact from its panicking boarding passengers.

[southside bobby]

Correct...Evidently moving toward ordering up to 200 of them there planes.

[pabely]

Sure Boeing would rather get people to take the cancelled frames from other airlines/leasors. With RYR having a bespoke model that is not going to happen. More of a flag waving exercise I think unless Boeing give them away in leau of compensation.

[southside bobby]

Possible order valued at more than Fifteen Billion Euro so quite a large flag one might think then.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The B737-800s were bought at a steal post 9-11 as Ryanair were in a good place to take advantage of them. If the MAX is a game changer for the group, Boeing will likely give them an amazing deal. History can repeat itself.

[LTNman]

Just the latest example of Ryanair putting its own interests ahead of the health of the public as it loses an Irish court case to get restrictions lifted.

Ryanair maintained that what had been published by the Government went 'well beyond mere travel advice' and represented the 'imposition of restrictions on international travel.'


https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8797791/Ryanair-loses-High-Court-action-against-Irish-State-s-travel-restrictions.html

[racedo]

Just the latest example of Ryanair putting its own interests ahead of the health of the public as it loses an Irish court case to get restrictions lifted.



Ryanair management 1st duty is to the owners of the airline. All the Govt controls have not stopped the virus from spreading so questioning if they are any use at all. They would be failing to do their job is they did not question the restrictions.

Willie Walsh did the same in 2010 when he had BA fly jets transatlantic when UK Giovt was claiming ash from Icelandic volcano would force all aircraft engines to fail and aircraft fall out of the sky. BA had jets in the air that was made clear they would not be returning to the US. UK Govt threat was they would not be allowed to land, Govt minister folded on it when asked does a number of BA aircraft with passengers on board refused persmission to land and crashing look good on TV.

[Sober Lark]

In Ireland we never invested in our health system and that's why we were not prepared and as a consequence we don't have any clear plan and we don't even have a transparent decision making process. Most of our Covid-19 deaths have been in nursing homes which is an absolute disgrace. Still more than six months later we have ineffective testing and very haphazard follow up. With the help of our Government our economy is in self destruct mode. but it will be someone else's mess to clean up. We are shut for business. Nothing wrong with someone like Ryanair questioning it. Its a free country and we need connectivity. Our border has been effectively shut for six months yet our incidence rate is three times higher than that of Germany.

[brian_dromey]

I suppose there is a failure of logic with the borders. It is true to say that the virus was imported from abroad and that then spread like wildfire. It seems that the acts of travel, gathering and socialising that effects the incidence and prevalence. Essentially humans living a normal life, working, communicating and seeking social interaction with other humans is the vector for this virus to spread.

the time to close the borders was in March, once it was it it was too late. Now the Irish government seems to be trying to eradicate the virus, which isn't going so well either.

[MANFAN]

There are any indications yet from Ryanair on the number of based A/C and routes/frequencies from their MAN & LPL bases for the Winter?
I was particularly thinking of December/January...

[racedo]

There are any indications yet from Ryanair on the number of based A/C and routes/frequencies from their MAN & LPL bases for the Winter?
I was particularly thinking of December/January...

Bearing in mind the potential for a winter lockdown, as unpalatable as that is, I think pretty much nobody has any idea. There are probably 3 scenario's normality / limited lockdown with green countrys allowed / full lockdown.

Hopefully it is somewhere between 1 and 2 but 3 is a 30% probability as well.

Any plans I am making are now relying on day or two before going booking.

[CCFAIRPORT]

Toulouse will be closed for winter ! Confirmed for Cork as well

[God_of_Fire]

Ryanair will get the Max at an absolute steal just like they did with the post 911 order.

He is a smart cookie.

[LGS6753]

From Travel Mole:

https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?c=setreg&region=2&m_id=s~T_mdT_Y!&w_id=38128&news_id=2044690

Further winter reductions.

[EI-BUD]

From Travel Mole:

https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?c=setreg&region=2&m_id=s~T_mdT_Y!&w_id=38128&news_id=2044690

Further winter reductions.

Be assured that wherever competition or more specifically Aer Lingus operate, so too will Ryanair. The London route to Stansted will still operate I'd imagine...

[LTNman]

Bases at Cork, Shannon and Toulouse will be closed for the winter period, while the number of aircraft based in Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Vienna will be cut.


Wonder why UK airports are not the above list?

[pabely]

Wonder why UK airports are not the above list?
Keep sweat with UK in case some cheap loans come on offer again?

[LTNman]

On the other hand the UK is leaving the EU soon. Lots of threats from MOL in the past with no action taken despite the bluster or is he just waiting to make a point? I seem to remember him saying he would pull aircraft out of the UK and move them to Europe if we dared to vote to leave yet the fleet cuts have come from Europe.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I seem to remember him saying he would pull aircraft out of the UK and move them to Europe if we voted to leave.

If you live in France / Benelux / Germany etc and fear risk of exposure to C-19 whilst flying aboard an airliner, you have an easy alternative. Drive to a Southern European resort in your own car maintaining your own family bubble and avoiding any possibility of ending up in a tiresome paperchase for future travel vouchers or refunds. But the UK market is a quite different proposition: this is an island nation. For most, you either fly to the Med resorts or don't bother travelling. Taking a car via Eurotunnel or a ferry is an option, but an expensive and physically demanding one. Simply put, the market for short-haul flying is much more resilient in the UK. MO'L is well aware of the allure of a captive market. Never underestimate the effect of a relatively expensive sea-crossing on alternative consumer choices.

[MANFAN]

Why have Ryanair stopped the option of requesting a voucher when a flight is cancelled?
I had 2 e mails off them this morning to confirm my flights from CCF>MAN have been cancelled on 02/11 & 15/01/21 but the options on the e mail were only a flight change (not a viable option as flights don't re-start again until April 2021) or a refund. So I opted for a refund but would happily take a flight voucher as I fly with Ryanair to France, Germany & Spain various times per year.

[LTNman]

Why would anyone want a voucher when a refund gives people the option to still rebook or not.

[blind pew]

Applied for one thrice but still no joy and the flight was canx in march..

[MANFAN]

Why would anyone want a voucher when a refund gives people the option to still rebook or not.

Because I do not want to re-book on this particular route from April onwards. Flights to and from CCF to MAN are not operating now until April 2021.
The voucher gives me more flexibility to book up when I want, whilst also changing the origin and as in the past, I may even manage to get 2 return flights out of the total value of the voucher.

[TOM100]

Why is this difficult :ugh:

[davidjohnson6]

If you want a refund out of FR for a previously cancelled flight and an existing request has not been actioned, you should consider the chargeback route on your payment card. I have found that phoning FR and asking politely if you, the passenger, need to do a chargeback to secure the refund, somehow leads to the refund being actioned promptly

[ericlday]

Yes, it does work, I can endorse that suggestion.

[racedo]

Ryanair will get the Max at an absolute steal just like they did with the post 911 order.

He is a smart cookie.


It is a gamble because if this lasts 5 years then few airlines will be in existence.

On the other hand Boeing will be quite happy as they will set off some of the $$$ they owe Ryanair against the purchase price and US Govt as always will be funding the export sale.

A 200 plane order is basically one of their plants just servicing that order for close to 2 years, it won't be like that in practice as over a longer term but Boeing happy to take that order to the bank.

[davidjohnson6]

FR appear to have closed ticket sales on all routes from Armenia

[albertocsx]

FR appear to have closed ticket sales on all routes from Armenia
Not only Armenia but also all flights to Georgia and Lebanon seem to be cancelled.

[caiman27]

FR appear to have closed ticket sales on all routes from Armenia


The very real risk of being shot down would do that.

[Tom!]

Got my refund request confirmed and actioned within a week :ok:. Flight departure time changed by over 3 hours, but since my destination is a red zone now opted for the refund. Second time I cancelled the same trip now after March .

[pabely]

Ryanair aquire 777 for Cargo flights from Pakistan to China, well I suppose it's a revenue stream!

[Scottie Dog]

Ryanair aquire 777 for Cargo flights from Pakistan to China, well I suppose it's a revenue stream!
Try Rayyan Air of Pakistan. Last operated 2015 and it was a freight operator.

[pabely]

Raised an eyebrow with me https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2020/10/24/ryanair-acquires-pias-boeing-777-for-cargo-flights/

[davidjohnson6]

Wondering if Ostrava in the Czech Rep has been dropped completely from Ryanair's network...

[BHX5DME]

Ryanair departure from UK Airports
28th October

Stansted = 46

Manchester = 9

Bristol = 5

Birmingham = 4

Liverpool = 3

Luton = 3

Gatwick = 3

East Midlands = 3

Edinburgh = 3

Bournemouth = 2

Prestwick = 2

Belfast = 1

Newcastle = 1

Southend = 1

Glasgow = 1

[LGS6753]

Possibly reported earlier, but this news is due to the Irish government's latest Covid crackdown:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/294618/ryanair-to-suspend-service-from-irish-regional-airports/

[FRatSTN]

Ryanair booking system is being updated with Ryanair UK flight numbers with effect from 1st Jan 2021.

This only applies to a fairly small number of routes from the UK that would otherwise be impacted by Brexit, including UK domestic, Montenegro, Morocco and Ukraine.

From 1st Jan, all flights from the UK to those destinations will operate with "RK" flight numbers and presumably therefore under the ATC callsign "Blue Max".

[southside bobby]

Will one a/c G-RUKA be enough to cover the programme ?

[commit aviation]

Hardly a complicated job to re-register a few more if necessary. They have moved plenty to Maltese and Polish registrations over the last couple of years.

[southside bobby]

It was a genuine question...

G-RUKA was originally registered on 20.12.18 & then sat idle for some months & remains so far the only G dash in service around the network almost certainly to keep the UK AOC valid even though MOL said at one time he would not fly UK domestics at least after the event.

Will automatic cross validation of crews between Europe & UK still exist from Jan 1.

[mugam45]

Current January timetable sees three Saturday evening RK rotations (TGD, AGA, RBA) so, from the timetable at least, they will need two more moved to the UK reg

[southside bobby]

Interesting then...Thanks for the information.

[LTNman]

This from an airline that made Brexit threats.

[D9009]

This from an airline that made Brexit threats.
MOL has been consistently wrong footed by the virus despite liking to think he has all the answers
When that happens the likes of Ryanair just hang on to the money and refuse refunds making any booking risky so deceasing the numbers of bookings.
Meanwhile good old Ryanair, which is as predictable as Trump
Ryanair are actually encouraging the public to ignore the English lockdown, which they have never believed in.
Ryanair are suspending services not pulling out. They make threats like they did over Brexit and then they change their mind when no one takes any notice.
Do I detect a little anti Ryanair sentiment?




​​​​​​​

[davidjohnson6]

Norwegian are experiencing significant issues, as evident in their requesting examinership (i.e. bankruptcy) in Ireland. It seems that even if they get through their issues, they will likely be a MUCH smaller airline than they were in 2019 - most likely falling back to their core market of Oslo where they had significant market share in 2019
Besides Norway, one of their main country markets was Sweden, with an emphasis on Stockholm Arlanda airport. Following the collapse of NextJet, the minimal existence of BRA and the likelihood that Norwegian will be doing a lot less flying in Sweden in the next couple of years, that leaves a bit of a gap in the Swedish market

Ryanair fly to Skavsta instead of Arlanda (as well as Vasteras until it closes completely in 2022 due to local subsidies ceasing). I know Ryanair cut Skavsta as a base but that was when Norwegian were doing a lot of Swedish flying - post Covid the market dynamics are changed long term. I'm wondering if Arlanda might decide to encourage Ryanair with a deal to move some of their city flying to Arlanda from October 2021 while leaving the beach routes at Skavsta, similiar to what happened with Glasgow/Prestwick, Brussels/Charleroi or Frankfurt/Hahn. If Ryanair decide not to capitalise on Norwegian's misfortunes, I imagine Wizz might be interested. No, I don't see Greta/flygskam killing off Swedish flying long term

Any thoughts on Ryanair turning up at Arlanda some time in 2021 ?

[racedo]

I love your optimism but I see 2021 as a write off with passenger traffic at circa 25% of 2019, a possible recovery in last 2021 is possible.

Ryanair will not be worried about anybody jumping on routes, they have a proven ability to deliver pax numbers and will do so when a sense of normality returns.

Bottom line I believe at the moment is to generate enough cash to keep operation going without digging too much into cash pile.

[davidjohnson6]

I'm thinking of Ryanair starting ops at Stockholm Arlanda at the end of October 2021 - not before. It's most likely too late by now to persuade Ryanair to turn up at Stockholm Arlanda for the peak of the S21 season

[racedo]

I'm thinking of Ryanair starting ops at Stockholm Arlanda at the end of October 2021 - not before. It's most likely too late by now to persuade Ryanair to turn up at Stockholm Arlanda for the peak of the S21 season

I do love your optimism but maybe in that time frame.

I think peak S21 maybe be 5% better than peak S20.

[DomyDom]

This from an airline that made Brexit threats.
We still don't know where we are aviation/ travel wise post 2020 with Brexit despite BoJo's 'oven ready' deal. So far the UK has caved in to the EU last minute at every milestone in the negotiations. I think it's odds on the same will happen again over the next few weeks so there is a good chance that FR will not have to deliver on any Brexit threats.

[eye2eye5]

That’s an interesting statement. Which milestones has the UK “caved in to the EU at the last minute”?

[chaps1954]

Racedo I really cannot agree with your thoughts re 5% growth next year

[FRatSTN]

For Summer 21, unless we're bound by similar to current restrictions and quarantine measures, recovery in volumes by the low-cost operators (Ryanair and Wizz predominantly) would likely be pretty swift, in excess of 70% of 2019 levels I don't think would be unrealistic if travel restictions ease. But any growth will be unbalanced and fragmented. The majority of carriers who are more yield rather than volumes driven, especially the full service and business traffic, will take longer as for pricing we're talking more years as opposed to months for a recovery.

Airports are desperate for volumes to return since the bulk of their revenue comes from passenger related, non-aeronautical streams. Gatwick charging £5 for drop-off next year and big increases by MAG in drop-off charges, all this is to allow more competetive pricing to airlines in a bid to win back traffic volumes. Airports in Scandinavia and Germany as examples who generally have expensive handling and operating costs will lose out to those who can offer effecient and cost effective solutions to the likes of Ryanair and Wizz who will drive the volumes recovery. Even those traditionally more expensive, full-service, business travel airports will be unlikely to resist the need to turn to the low-cost carriers to secure and safeguard their business for the future. It truely will be the biggest race to the bottom as far as airports are concerned we've probably ever seen.

[eye2eye5]

A well reasoned hypothesis FRatSTN which would tend to explain some current manoeuvrings. Thank you.

[racedo]

Racedo I really cannot agree with your thoughts re 5% growth next year

Thats fine.

I am working on assumption that vaccine will be rolled out and despite the hype will not do as expected. However this takes 2-3 months before people know and then panic and lockdown recurs so killing the S21 summer market.

It is a forecast as have no better information than anybidy else.

Happy to be wrong because so many jobs depend on aviation restarting but expectation is everything gets back to normak with a vaccine, it is not a thread of thought that I share.

[eye2eye5]

Racedo, the vaccines have been well tested and their effectiveness is established. The emerging challenge appears to be the reluctance of the general public to be vaccinated. That said, if the high risk groups do indeed step forward to be vaccinated and both hospitalisations and deaths plummet, then I can also see some return to normality in Summer.
Having already had Covid and despite showing high antibody levels at three tests, I will have my hand up to be vaccinated as soon as possible. It’s not a pleasant virus to experience.

[commit aviation]

FRatSTN

Noted that MAG are keen to do a deal with Ryanair and I am sure there will be others. However, the aircraft need to operate to somewhere and that somewhere needs to be where the public want to go in reasonable numbers (for instance Spanish holiday resorts.) The interesting bit will be whether the airports that are prepared to offer deals will align and who bends first. I think most Spanish airports are operated by AENA still? If they don't choose to play ball, will Ryanair operate anyway because that is where the British public want to go and be grateful they have a deal at the UK end? Perhaps AENA will do a deal and so Ryanair operate to all UK airports making MAG wish they hadn't been so quick. (assuming the deal is done.)
I think there are a lot of variables at play and first mover might be an advantage but could equally bite some on the backside.
Ultimately lets hope that "aviation wins" and that the process sees passengers back in the sky as soon as the vaccine begins to roll out in reasonable quantities (whenever that might be.)