Ryanair-10

[owenc]

I requested a refund of one of my flights and left the rest, I can't take the idea of two months of cancelled flights seriously.

[NorthEasterner]

How daily are they 3, 4?

[A320.b744]

BFS-LGW is x5 daily during the winter season.

[NorthEasterner]

Bad! That is a lot!
I wonder why...

[1sky]

Ryanair have really made a mess of the past few months. The recent chaos has meant they not even been able to run their summer 2018 schedule press events (they did a small few bases but stopped). It always generated a lot of free PR.

Is Robin Kiely still with them?

[NorthEasterner]

Not to say they can't put them on sale. Kate Sherry, O'Brien and Kiely usually do route announcements. Obviously bigger issues going on need focussing on.

They can't set up new routes they don't have crews for.

[1sky]

The planes are coming crew or no crew.

[inOban]

EDI to STN has also disappeared

[owenc]

Is this something to do with Brexit?

[sinbad73]

Winter 2017 seems to have disappeared altogether at the moment

[owenc]

How likely is it that my flight from Gatwick on 12th-16th October will be cancelled? I don't want to go 110 miles away and be stranded in Gatwick at night.

[1sky]

Who are Ryanair kidding with the latest cancellation update press release?

They are reporting 1st wave on time performance, which often has absolutely nothing to do with overall on time performance.

Cancellations & Punctuality ? Update | Ryanair's Corporate Website (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/cancellations-punctuality-update/)

Ryanair have always stretched the truth but in recent months, the airlines really seems to have hired the Iraqi information minister in their PR team. From stretching the truth, they are now spreading outright lies.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

[GAZMO]

Appears that all BFS to LGW flights have been cancelled for the winter schedule, not available to book on website
Is this a rostering problem or something else?

[sinbad73]

Coincidence that EZY Summer 2018 goes on sale tomorrow?

[Harry Wayfarers]

– All 315,000 customers received email notices (on Mon 18th)
– By Sun 24th, over 305,000 alternative routings or refunds (over 97% of affected customers) had been processed
– The remaining 3% of customers (less than 10,000) have yet to contact Ryanair


Yeah Right,

I have booked myself a day trip to SIN next July, arriving back in Cebu and getting to my hotel bed around 2am in time for a 1pm departure back to my home airport later that day.

My local LoCo have cancelled my 1pm departure in favour of a 10am departure (2am arrive the hotel, 8am depart the hotel) and all they can be assed to do is send me a text message and put the onus on me to contact them, i.e. I am the one responsible for sorting the problem out and I see RYR displaying a similar attitude, "3% of the passengers haven't contacted us" ... "Well try calling them you @ssholes!"

[Scottish Flyer]

Just found out that my Frankfurt to Stansted flight has been cancelled on 4th November. No message from Ryanair about this - discovered it on checking flight details on website. Why are they cancelling flights in November - this is just a new route? Outward flight is still operating but I have now cancelled whole trip and rebooked with BA from Heathrow. I have flown Ryanair many many times (100+ flights) but this is likely to cost them any future bookings from me.

[LBIA]

So along with cancelling BFS-LGW it looks like STN-EDI & STN-GLA routes are now no longer on sale for winter 17.

[peppo_8787]

Writing from Italy.
Seems like they're also closing Trapani base in the winter and a few cancellations from Bergamo, Milan Malpensa, Rome-Fiumicino, Palermo, Bologna, Pisa

[LiamNCL]

GDN-NCL / NCL-GDN No longer on sale for winter.

[Coquelet]

Just found out that my Frankfurt to Stansted flight has been cancelled on 4th November. No message from Ryanair about this - discovered it on checking flight details on website. Why are they cancelling flights in November - this is just a new route? Outward flight is still operating but I have now cancelled whole trip and rebooked with BA from Heathrow. I have flown Ryanair many many times (100+ flights) but this is likely to cost them any future bookings from me.

I have just checked on website : FR1686 Frankfurt 07.00 - Stansted 07.35 on 4th November is bookable at 23,19 €

[toledoashley]

Wasnt it 2x daily?

[01475]

it looks like STN-EDI & STN-GLA routes are now no longer on sale for winter 17.

I didn't expect easyJet to win that one! This is a serious sign of change in the market; think how many people Ryanair used to take between STN and PIK!

[DublinPole]

35 routes cancelled for winter as part of rostering issues.

Another 400k passengers getting cancellation mails.

Announcement up on corprorate.ryanair.com

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in EZY's directors offices around these times :)

[owenc]

So what is going to happen to these routes then?

And if they had rostering issues, why would they target their high demand routes?

[DublinPole]

Would say yields would be more important than demand.

[southside bobby]

01475.....Not a true grasp of situations there...& yes the second part of your post is & was a different situation & related in no way to the current story being related today.

[Harry Wayfarers]

So what is going to happen to these routes then?

And if they had rostering issues, why would they target their high demand routes?

They shall need to concentrate what human resources they have from a reduced number of bases.

Whilst each base might have one or two etc. high yield routes a crew can't, let's say, operate an Italian rotation of a morning and a German rotation of an afternoon, RYR are in a position whereas R.G.D. Willis is bowling a fast one at them and they need to react PDQ.

[Scottish Flyer]

I have just checked on website : FR1686 Frankfurt 07.00 - Stansted 07.35 on 4th November is bookable at 23,19 €
I was booked on the outward flight that is still operating - it is the return flight in the evening that has been cancelled therefore making a day trip for a conference in Frankfurt impossible. Have now had e-mail notification of the cancellation but no mention of the supposed voucher offer that is quoted in Ryanair's press release today. Poor communications by Ryanair. I chose Stansted as it is only 40 minutes from home - I now have a 3.30am start to get to Heathrow for a 7am flight.

[Harry Wayfarers]

What I learned years ago is that if you need to talk to these a'holes don't call their premium rate UK number, find out their non premium Irish number then google for telediscount, telestunt or similar to predial a number to listen to their prerecorded bull then talk for circa 1p per minute.

[Flitefone]

So what is going to happen to these routes then?

And if they had rostering issues, why would they target their high demand routes?

Surely this is just the first wave of Brexit impacts that Ryanair has been indicating. An Irish Airline operating domestic routes in the UK (outside the EU) - in the current Brexit situation, most of these flights would be unlikely to continue after March 2019, irrespective of the crew shortage. Not a surprise they are cut now.

[southside bobby]

Flitefone.....Again supposition only & not reflecting a true grasp of situations....

[LBIA]

Full list of Ryanair's 34 suspended routes for winter 2017/18 scheduled.

Bucharest – Palermo
Chania – Athens
Chania – Pafos
Chania – Thessaloniki
Cologne – Berlin (SXF)
Edinburgh – Szczecin
Glasgow – Las Palmas
Hamburg – Edinburgh
Hamburg – Katowice
Hamburg – Oslo (TRF)
Hamburg – Thessaloniki
Hamburg – Venice (TSF)
London (LGW) – Belfast (BFS)
London (STN) – Edinburgh
London (STN) – Glasgow
Newcastle – Faro
Newcastle – Gdansk
Sofia – Castellon
Sofia – Memmingen
Sofia – Pisa
Sofia – Stockholm (NYO)
Sofia – Venice (TSF)
Thessaloniki – Bratislava
Thessaloniki – Paris (BVA)
Thessaloniki – Warsaw (WMI)
Trapani – Baden Baden
Trapani – Frankfurt (HHN)
Trapani – Genoa
Trapani – Krakow
Trapani – Parma
Trapani – Rome (FIU)
Trapani – Trieste
Wroclaw – Warsaw
Gdansk – Warsaw

[DC3 Dave]

Surely this is just the first wave of Brexit impacts that Ryanair has been indicating. An Irish Airline operating domestic routes in the UK (outside the EU) - in the current Brexit situation, most of these flights would be unlikely to continue after March 2019, irrespective of the crew shortage. Not a surprise they are cut now.



How come most of the suspended routes are EU - EU?

[LGS6753]

Ryanair to cancel another 400,000 bookings (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/ryanair-cancel-another-400000-bookings/)

[fatmanmedia]

the way this is going I don't see Ryanair being around next year, the reputational damage has to be getting pretty close to being terminal, other airlines that can cover the routes that they are cancelling must be rubbing their hands in glee.

[RAT 5]

I feel very sorry for the crew. Many of these routes, and there will be more to come, are from small bases. Crews will go without work = pay or they will have to move across Europe to find dribbles & scraps of work for 6 months, all at their own cost. Not happy bunnies.

[SARF]

Ryanair could bounce back from almost any reputational crisis. They appear immune

[AirportPlanner1]

A big risk to them is that they lose the business travel they've worked hard to develop, and with it the yields from last minute bookings and premium 'upgrades'. For example, the cuts go beyond these route cancellations (many of which to be frank no one else would operate anyway). It's frequency reductions that might cost them, e.g. STN-FRA is now once daily some days, STN-CPH is sometimes twice daily.

[Sober Lark]

Ryanair could bounce back from almost any reputational crisis. They appear immune

Indeed, critics are loud, but success is louder.

[sealink]

Was BFS LGW not recently said to the busiest domestic route ? EZY will be happy bunnies having it back to themselves ! ( I know EI fly BHD LGW )

[airnoc]

London (LGW) – Belfast (BFS)
What a supraise though this route was doing very well but as per usual the pax speaks louder that words

[daz211]

Ryanair had no choice in closing down some routes and frequencies if you calculate the total amount of cancelled flights added to the suspended routes and frequencies it's a huge number and what ever they call it these all add up to cancelled flights.

But again if anyone is looking for a winter sun holiday over autumn winter spring I doubt they will risk booking Ryanair when there seems no end to this crisis but I guess taking a chance on a last minute weekend away for a tenner you got nothing to loose

But I have to agree this is hurting Ryanair more than anyone knows and is helping the likes of jet2 easyJet and the charters that Ryanair took a chunk of.

[southside bobby]

Ryanair shares up 2.5% in afternoon trading...As Sober Lark states critics are loud but success is louder.

[daz211]

It must be getting real bad

Ryanair has pulled out of bidding for rival Alitalia, saying it needed to “eliminate all management distractions”

[southside bobby]

Yup the City liked that statement...Perhaps tho RYR were looking for a convenient exit having played the part of "disruptor" & knowing full well an Italian Government & unions would never allow ceding control of the national airline to MOL..

[On the beach]

I don't think that the list of cancelled routes published today is complete because my flights to/from Copenhagen from Edinburgh in November have just been cancelled. Luckily I managed to rebook on Norwegian. Never flown with them before but they look to be a good alternative for future flights as well. Be glad to hear of any others with experience of flying with them.

[racedo]

the way this is going I don't see Ryanair being around next year, the reputational damage has to be getting pretty close to being terminal, other airlines that can cover the routes that they are cancelling must be rubbing their hands in glee.

Hardly

Pulling back on expansion to consolidate what they have.

Despite the media crap it has taken ages to respond they have acted decisevely and quickly.

[racedo]

Ryanair could bounce back from almost any reputational crisis. They appear immune
.

Thye aren't but they understand they were being distracted and have acted accordingly.

[racedo]

It must be getting real bad

Ryanair has pulled out of bidding for rival Alitalia, saying it needed to “eliminate all management distractions”


When succesful companies lose focus it can be damaging.................. getting rid of distraction is best option as even if they bought it there would be significant management time required to turn it around.
Sticking to the knitting is the appropraite expression for a reason.

[RAT 5]

For example, the cuts go beyond these route cancellations (many of which to be frank no one else would operate anyway).

The advantage they have, morally, legally or rightly so, is that they can close down these routes, which are crewed by 'contractors', at no cost. They simply tell the 'contractors' to move somewhere else or do not use them at all and give them an empty roster.
Many times we hear that RYR are coming into an airport, will bring 000's of pax and so create 00's of jobs in the local economy. For this magic they demand special treatment. No-one seems to ask what effect the closure of routes has on the local economy and local jobs. Surely that is a 2-way street.

[rowly6339]

The cost of these cancellations is set to go from €22m to near €50m, if I was a shareholder I would be calling for someone to be axed and that would be somebody high up. I don't care how big they are this will seriously hurt them for a long time to come.

[01475]

Hardly

Pulling back on expansion to consolidate what they have.


It could be that...

... but lack of crew is a really bad reason for an airline expecting many new deliveries to be cancelling routes at a quiet time of year. It's the unholy trinity of problems that makes this slightly more serious than serious.

We're also getting an interesting insight into their operations, and into the market in general. Some of these routes may be where they have particularly most trouble recruiting pilots, but overall it's likely that they are their worst routes (and if you look at the recent Wizz cancellations then that figures).

They'll still be around obviously; there I completely agree. But whereas before they were just striding around announcing that they didn't mind the smell of anything anyone threw at them and that it probably wouldn't stick anyway; this time they are going to be left with a black eye and a limp.

But maybe they can negotiate for 14 free pilots with every 737 delivery?

[Trav a la]

Sky News reporting that RA are facing enforcement action by the CAA.

Ryanair faces action by regulator for 'persistently misleading passengers' (http://news.sky.com/story/ryanair-faces-action-by-regulator-for-persistently-misleading-passengers-11056439)

[Chidken Sangwich]

Must have had really poor booked forward loads if only 400,000 are claimed to be affected from the 3,402,000 seats being chopped with 18,000 cancellations = 11.75%.

Somehow I can't believe that...

Anyway, get your EU261 claims submitted and demand they re-book you on other carriers.

[inOban]

Because many of the seats on these routes are only booked near the time. Who books a flight to London months ahead?

[EGAC is Better]

Must have had really poor booked forward loads if only 400,000 are claimed to be affected from the 3,402,000 seats being chopped with 18,000 cancellations = 11.75%.

Somehow I can't believe that...

Anyway, get your EU261 claims submitted and demand they re-book you on other carriers.

The same press release stated that cancelled flights would effect on average less than one flight per day....it's up to 5 at BFS. The spin is ridiculous and I hope somebody finds a way to throw the book at them.

All the nice bits of EU261 do not apply because there is more than two weeks notice.

[owenc]

So, why have I been given £120's worth of vouchers? Does this mean that they are trying to avoid paying some sort of payout and should I be avoiding utilizing this?

[mik3bravo]

Because many of the seats on these routes are only booked near the time. Who books a flight to London months ahead?

Lucrative business class they've been gradually building since first launching it. They're cheaper compared to other business class tickets on BA or Aer Lingus, for example. A lot of corporate busines class tickets booked way ahead for planned meeting slots.

[mik3bravo]

When FR sort this latest challenge out, do not be surprised if FR go full tilt into a series of aggressively cheap pricing to win back business from others. Nothing more dangerous than a wounded beast. FR have vast cash reserves to sustain very long price wars that will cause serious financial stresses for others. I think this FR rostering cluster flup will pass, but it's what FR do on the offensive which interests me now.

[ericsson16]

So FR Fly three times a day GLA to STN,can someone else step in and use these slots ie easyjet or are these FR slots to use only?

[WHBM]

Now the CAA action against Ryanair is 1st headline on BBC News

"Ryanair threatened with legal action by UK regulator"

Ryanair threatened with legal action by UK regulator - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41422571)

Meanwhile the IAA poodle in Dublin still couldn't care less.

[EGAC is Better]

So, why have I been given £120's worth of vouchers? Does this mean that they are trying to avoid paying some sort of payout and should I be avoiding utilizing this?

Did you read the email? It's positioned as an "apology" but really is an attempt to encourage you to spend more money. I got £160 but its still not enough for us to go anywhere we'd like to go without paying more money.

[southside bobby]

Rowly6339....Don`t worry...RYR in keeping with all large corporations will always keep their shareholders the happiest first...the dividend will be maintained & probably increased.Yes questions will be asked & behind the scenes the institutions will no doubt be hoppity but ho hum life goes on..

[FQTLSteve]

Don't worry about Norwegian, used them several times very good, I'm sure you'll be flying with them again after your first trip.

[111KAB]

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/News/News_files/2017/Julisz%20Komorek%20Ryanair%20270917.pdf

[mikkie4]

the new flights from LONDON SOUTHEND TO GLASGOW which starts at the end of oct could pick up some extra pax

[Sober Lark]

"RYANAIR - Continent Cut Off" :rolleyes:

Most of the UK voted for BREXIT. Now which waves do Britania hope to rule in Europe? They want an a la carte separation, they desire EU laws for compensation, open skies etc etc. Membership has its benefits which won't apply in the not too distant future.

Theresa May and others are slow to negotiate and the divorce bill is mounting. In business if blocked you can't wait forever as on onlooker you just move on.

[LAX_LHR]

Ah BREXIT,

Of course that's what's causing this Ryanair turmoil, and explains perfectly why only 7 of the 34 routes suspended (20%) either start or end in the UK, and 31 of the routes, (91%) have a start or end in a non UK country. Funny that....

It will be why Air Berlin is going under too.......

[Skipness One Echo]

Now which waves do Britania hope to rule in Europe? They want an a la carte separation, they desire EU laws for compensation, open skies etc etc. Membership has its benefits which won't apply in the not too distant future.
Just wait til Ireland really gets the hang of being a net contributor for a few years :)

[Harry Wayfarers]

Kind of a shame, for O'Leary that is, that Air Berlin are Airbus and not Boeing.

[racedo]

Now the CAA action against Ryanair is 1st headline on BBC News

"Ryanair threatened with legal action by UK regulator"

Ryanair threatened with legal action by UK regulator - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41422571)

Meanwhile the IAA poodle in Dublin still couldn't care less.

CAA running to media and then claiming "Oh it won't go to court" so why again are the screaming it will ?
For optics only.

So were they shouting about court and BA ?

[racedo]

Rowly6339....Don`t worry...RYR in keeping with all large corporations will always keep their shareholders the happiest first...the dividend will be maintained & probably increased.Yes questions will be asked & behind the scenes the institutions will no doubt be hoppity but ho hum life goes on..

Ryanair do not pay dividends.

They may make distribution of funds but not called nor classified as a dividend as not paid or guaranteed any time.

[racedo]

Just wait til Ireland really gets the hang of being a net contributor for a few years :)

Believe it already is and people have no issues with it.

[wowzz]

"RYANAIR - Continent Cut Off" :rolleyes:

Most of the UK voted for BREXIT. Now which waves do Britania hope to rule in Europe? They want an a la carte separation, they desire EU laws for compensation, open skies etc etc. Mvembership has its benefits which won't apply in the not too distant future.

Theresa May and others are slow to negotiate and the divorce bill is mounting. In business if blocked you can't wait forever as on onlooker you just move on.

I think you'll find that most of the UK DID not vote for Brexit. 52% voted for it which is a small majority.

[BCALBOY]

BA dealt with the problems as per the rules.

So there there was no need for court action.

[Mr A Tis]

Most of the UK voted for BREXIT

Roughly 17.5M of the UK population voted for Brexit. 47M did not.
I don't think Bexit has any bearing on the current RYR issues.

[Sober Lark]

I think you'll find the total electorate is only 46501241 and you had a 72.2% turn out. You voted to leave by the narrowest of margins 51.9% and the ACI states the UK is risking 270,000 jobs and €15.4 billion a year if it damages its aviation relationship with the EU. In passing, the EU has told UK not to use Northern Ireland as a bargaining chip in Brexit divorce talks. I feel sympathy for those who voted not to leave, its an unpleasant situation but to many who have their heads in the clouds thinking Brexit isn't an influence then I rest my case. Grounding flights gives Ryanair great opportunities to restructure.

[LapsedPPL]

I see that no Ryanair flights in and out of Malta are on the lists of cancellations. Obviously they're axing their least profitable routes.

[BigFrank]

Ryanair do not pay dividends.

They may make distribution of funds but not called nor classified as a dividend as not paid or guaranteed any time.

Cf: "employees" who work for them but are not legally employed and so aren't employees after all. Despite wearing the uniform and flying the plane?

Wonderful place to work (though not as an employee) or receive distributions of funds (though not dividends) this EU, in'nit?

[BigFrank]

Believe it already is and people have no issues with it.

Just the same as the Germans had no issues with Angela's open borders policy?

Well till last Sunday they didn't.

[SWBKCB]

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/News/News_files/2017/Julisz%20Komorek%20Ryanair%20270917.pdf

So CAA are going after RYR for not offering alternative flights with other airlines. Hope this is being applied even-handedly and they are seeking similar assurances from other airlines - easyJet were adamant they wouldn't when my flight was cancelled last year.

[DublinPole]

BA were awkward with me in the past as well and a colleague told me once he tried to complain about it to the regulator (I assume the CAA) and didn't get very far since it wasn't apparently required.

[rowly6339]

Roughly 17.5M of the UK population voted for Brexit. 47M did not.
I don't think Bexit has any bearing on the current RYR issues.

Absolute nonsense but hey that's what we expect these days.

Back on topic I do think they will lose some pax long term after this fiasco,not all but some.

[WHBM]

Ryanair do not pay dividends.

They may make distribution of funds but not called nor classified as a dividend as not paid or guaranteed any time.
Purely for tax advantage.

The Ryanair chairman for the last 20 years, who never makes public pronouncements, is US billionaire citizen David Bonderman, who heads investment group TPG (the old Texas Pacific Group). Once upon a time, when there was a Continental Airlines, he was a board member of that. TPG are also major investors in Uber, where Bonderman had to resign his board position a few months ago following inappropriate behaviour. Everyone can be assured that TPG do not make any investments, including backing Ryanair's huge aircraft purchases, without a very satisfactory rate of return on their investment. Whether this is represented as dividends from profits, charges, or some other form, is entirely down to layers of tax accountants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bonderman

[aileron]

I need my driveway paving............is that on their website?

[DublinPole]

So the CAA want Ryanair to email all the customers again who they cancelled and say that they will pay for their alternative arrangements for trips with other airlines and even train fares if that is what they took as well as cover the expenses for routing to their original destination if they were offered alternatives to other airports.

Looks like this could be a time for those who have been denied these things with other airlines in the last few years to get their claims in quickly to these airlines and demand exactly the same that the CAA are forcing Ryanair into now and if the airlines don't reply send a letter to the CAA requiring them to take enforcement action.

Since the CAA are claiming these are the rules now, the other airlines do not have a leg to stand on and the CAA will have no excuse for not enforcing them to act like they are with Ryanair.

[owenc]

I have claimed my refund! Can I still get Ryanair to book my two return flights with Easyjet?

Does any member have the appropriate legislation to hand so that I can provide proof when I liaise with Ryanair?

[racedo]

Cf: "employees" who work for them but are not legally employed and so aren't employees after all. Despite wearing the uniform and flying the plane?

Wonderful place to work (though not as an employee) or receive distributions of funds (though not dividends) this EU, in'nit?

Can you tell me of a single company where employees receive dividends because they are employees ?
There isn't one.

[racedo]

Just the same as the Germans had no issues with Angela's open borders policy?

Well till last Sunday they didn't.

Still largest part and both ruling partys lost seats.

[racedo]

Purely for tax advantage.

, where Bonderman had to resign his board position a few months ago following inappropriate behaviour.


Why let the facts get in the way.

He made a comment that was deemed inappropriate.
There was never a comment on his behaviour towards anybody.


Everyone can be assured that TPG do not make any investments, including backing Ryanair's huge aircraft purchases, without a very satisfactory rate of return on their investment. Whether this is represented as dividends from profits, charges, or some other form, is entirely down to layers of tax accountants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bonderman

It would be good if you bothered to read the Ryanair Annual Report.

Great thing about it that it has to disclose what directors are paid, what shareholding they have, it is also required to disclose fees and payments to related parties or business where directors are involved in.

Everytime a director buys or sells shares has to be fully disclosed.

If you wish to make a claim that TPG or any other business connected to David Bonderman is benifitiing from his position as a member of the board of Ryanair and it is somehow hidden or not been disclosed I would seriously suggest looking at how much you can afford in legal fees.

As for TPG somehow backing Ryanair's aircraft purchases..................... get real.

People who are backing Ryanair's aircraft purchases are EXIM and have been for years. Additionally Ryanair has enough cash to be able to borrow easily to fund its own aircraft purchases.

As for TPG they are investors who seek Capital Growth and make their money from that but even now their shareholding if they have one in Ryanair is tiny.

[RAT 5]

If you have access to company documents can you tell us how many a/c has RYR airline actually purchased and how many do they now actually own?

[AirportPlanner1]

Can you tell me of a single company where employees receive dividends because they are employees ?
There isn't one.

The Co-Op is an obvious one. Also John Lewis/Waitrose, not a dividend in name but effectively the same thing.

[DublinPole]

If you have access to company documents can you tell us how many a/c has RYR airline actually purchased and how many do they now actually own?

The vast majority of them are owned these days, only a few leased.

I would say they own at the very least 350

[southside bobby]

Not doubting the veracity of RYR finances & ownerships but just a quick question as we are on topic...who are Aviation Finance & Leasing S.a.r.l.?

[compton3bravo]

It is a Swiss company but registered in Luxembourg (tax?) and issued by the Irish Stock Exchange. Would not be at all surprised it has a connection with a certain Irish airline which has been in the news recently.

[southside bobby]

It does appear thus as quite a few of the year`s deliveries have or had named as lessor that above..

[KelvinD]

Rat5: Re the Ryanair report, here it is:
https://investorryanair.azureedge.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Ryanair-FY2017-Annual-Report.pdf
Everybody is invited to remember MOL on TV in the last week, saying payment for arranging flights with alternative carriers will not happen because that is not covered by EU Reg 261. Now take a look at page 63 of the annual report and the paragraph headed "EU Regulation on Passenger Compensation Could Significantly Increase Related Costs".
This is an interesting paragraph as it begins with the following:
EU Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 requires airlines to compensate passengers (holding a valid ticket) who have been denied boarding or whose flight has been cancelled or delayed more than 3 hours on arrival.
The regulation calls for compensation of €250, €400 or €600 per passenger, depending on the length of the flight and the cause for the cancellation or delay, i.e. whether it is caused by extraordinary circumstance."
So, they knew that when the report was created so how does MOL not know it today?
The whole report is worth a read as it delves into pilot relations, taxes, proposed scheduled alterations etc.
The report mentions Ryanair actually own, outright, 44 of their aircraft, while the remainder are effectively mortgaged to Ex-Im bank and others. 33 aircraft are leased on 7 year leases etc etc. 195 pages that can be bloody tedious in places but interesting in others.

[DublinPole]

I just had a look around a few other airlines in relation to how they deal with cancellations and it seems that the CAA have their work cut out, Aer Lingus and Easyjet had very good detail

However some on their cancellation pages don't even mention compensation/expenses/EU261 at all
https://wizzair.com/en-gb/information-and-services/travel-information/cancellation-information#/

Important information for passengers affected by flight disruption

If your flight is affected by a disruption (see below), please log in to your profile, retrieve your booking and you will be able to re-book online free of charge, or obtain a refund.

Surely that cannot be compliant with what the CAA are asking for? Why are Ryanair being targeted here and nobody else? (is how it seems?)

[daz211]

I just had a look around a few other airlines in relation to how they deal with cancellations and it seems that the CAA have their work cut out, Aer Lingus and Easyjet had very good detail

However some on their cancellation pages don't even mention compensation/expenses/EU261 at all
https://wizzair.com/en-gb/information-and-services/travel-information/cancellation-information#/



Surely that cannot be compliant with what the CAA are asking for? Why are Ryanair being targeted here and nobody else? (is how it seems?)

I think it's more to do with EU law not been offered even when passengers in the know ask for alternative airlines they have been told NO
I don't think any airline is obligated to list what the law is but when things go this bad and people are being denied their rights the CAA are looking for a company announcement saying they will follow EU law and letting people who aren't in the know what their rights are I don't think this would have happened if Ryanair hadn't told people lies and then when they got caught out tried to interpret the law saying (via internal memo) that they could offer alternative airlines and airports as long as it didn't cost 3x the original ticket price.

[DublinPole]

I've also been told by Easyjet and BA and others in the past NO as well and I know many people who have had the same problem but as I said before, nobody was interested in getting involved with that or standing up for consumers then which could open up a whole can of worms for other airlines and the CAA since surely it means that anyone in the last few years who was denied and still has the paperwork can claim against the other airlines and the CAA will be forced to act and force the other airlines to compensate or the person could then sue them?

I can see there being a lot of money in this, in that this will set a prescedent for everyone who has been refused these things in the past and are going to be able to use this action to force other airlines who refused in the last few years to pay up or be sued, because believe me this problem is much more wider than Ryanair.

I'm unsure why the CAA are talking about compensation in addition for refunds and re-routing under EU261 etc for flights in November and December because some of the clauses only apply if the flight was cancelled within 14 days.

[daz211]

I agree I just think it's the scale of this situation and the amount of customer anger.

[mart901]

I've also been told by Easyjet and BA and others in the past NO as well and I know many people who have had the same problem but as I said before, nobody was interested in getting involved with that or standing up for consumers then which could open up a whole can of worms for other airlines and the CAA since surely it means that anyone in the last few years who was denied and still has the paperwork can claim against the other airlines and the CAA will be forced to act and force the other airlines to compensate or the person could then sue them?

I can see there being a lot of money in this, in that this will set a prescedent for everyone who has been refused these things in the past and are going to be able to use this action to force other airlines who refused in the last few years to pay up or be sued, because believe me this problem is much more wider than Ryanair.

I'm unsure why the CAA are talking about compensation in addition for refunds and re-routing under EU261 etc for flights in November and December because some of the clauses only apply if the flight was cancelled within 14 days.

Sorry to say I feel no sorrow whatsoever for Ryanair. Over the years they've pissed on everyone, from people winning life long free travel to disabled people being ejected from flights, airports, every grade of staff, passengers, suppliers. The tide has turned against them and their arrogance.

[lfc84]

Agree with the last few posts.

Furthermore, the CAA should also be held to account for their failure to strong arm all other airlines in the manner in which they are doing so now with Ryanair

[daz211]

Agree with the last few posts.

Furthermore, the CAA should also be held to account for their failure to strong arm all other airlines in the manner in which they are doing so now with Ryanair

The point is I can't think of any airlines that have had such a catastrophic failure on this level affecting so many people so to say CAA should be held accountable for their failure to strong arm others in the same way is involved because this situation is unprecedented.

I know this is an aviation forum and some of us have loyalty to some airlines and airports but why people feel that the CAA are in someway out of order in coming down on Ryanair like a ton of bricks we should be thinking of the poor passengers affected and how they can be helped it's not their fault so in my opinion the CAA should be congratulated on how they are handling this situation on behalf of the passengers.

[DublinPole]

The point is I can't think of any airlines that have had such a catastrophic failure on this level affecting so many people so to say CAA should be held accountable for their failure to strong arm others in the same way is involved because this situation is unprecedented.

I know this is an aviation forum and some of us have loyalty to some airlines and airports but why people feel that the CAA are in someway out of order in coming down on Ryanair like a ton of bricks we should be thinking of the poor passengers affected and how they can be helped it's not their fault so in my opinion the CAA should be congratulated on how they are handling this situation on behalf of the passengers.

They're not out of order for coming down on Ryanair at all.

My problem is more the fact that many people over the years have also suffered the same issues as Ryanair passengers are and have got absloutely nowhere and that is not acceptable. If Ryanair and another airline are going head to head on a route, why should Ryanair be forced to compensate passengers to EU261 guidelines if the other airlines are not doing the same thing, it's not an even playing field and the CAA have made their own bed here to lie in it.

If they properly enforced the guidelines of EU261 on flights in their back yard for the last number of years no airline would try and get away with it like Ryanair because of the fact they knew they wouldn't be able to, the simple facts is airlines have been chancing their arms for this for years and that all stems from the fact they knew that the regulator wasn't going to intervene.

If I travel on Ryanair, Wizz, Easyjet, British Airways, Aer Lingus, Lufthansa etc it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference, the simple fact is the rules are the rules and they should be applied consistancy across the board.

What the CAA should do now is come out with a statement saying they will open an investigation of EU261 practices in all airlines operating in the UK and set-up an advice line where passengers of all airlines can call up and get advice over flights which they have took over the last number of years and claim compensation from their airline and the CAA will back them up.

Compliance with EU261 directives is an industry wide problem and needs to be treated as such rather than dealing with Ryanair's issues and then avoiding the actual wider issue which needs to be tackled.

[RHINO]

Ryanair have been for many months selling seats knowing full well they would not be flying many hundreds of thousands of these seats. It is like you are selling tickets for a big football game in 6 months time knowing that there will never actually be a match.

Deliberately misleading.

Therefore it is right and proper that this is exposed for what it is. It is has been done on an industrial scale, not my quote but the BBC transport correspondent.

To be honest I think the UK CAA response is weak. They should stop them selling what they know they cannot be delivered.

[daz211]

Sky news reporting

CAA: Ryanair has not replied to meeting request ahead of 5pm deadline for airline to meet obligations to customers affected by cancellations

[racedo]

The Co-Op is an obvious one. Also John Lewis/Waitrose, not a dividend in name but effectively the same thing.

John Lewis Partnership is most definitely not a dividend, it is a bonus and not the same thing.

Co-Op is a mebership scheme and called a dividend but it is a loyalty scheme.

[111KAB]

Ryanair accused by Civil Aviation Authority of 'failing to respond' to meeting request | Anglia - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-09-29/ryanair-accused-by-civil-aviation-authority-of-failing-to-respond-to-meeting-request/)

[racedo]

If you have access to company documents can you tell us how many a/c has RYR airline actually purchased and how many do they now actually own?

Company information is and had always been freely available.

[racedo]

The report mentions Ryanair actually own, outright, 44 of their aircraft, while the remainder are effectively mortgaged to Ex-Im bank and others. 33 aircraft are leased on 7 year leases etc etc. 195 pages that can be bloody tedious in places but interesting in others.

Exim provide very low cost loans to anybody buying from US, no different from what UK Govt or others provide in way of Export Finance.

As for leasing................ not unsurprisingly Sale and Leaseback is a very efficient way to look after your own cash. Means someone else funds it at a low interest rate while you use the cash.

Few UK retailers own their own stores................ they buy the land and build it they sales and lease back the stores.

[inOban]

A particular problem is that if you want to sue them for more than they feel like offering, you have to do so in the Irish small claims court.

And on another matter, quite a few companies issue shares to their employees; it's encouraged by the taxman. Save as you earn, I think it's called.

[racedo]

What the CAA should do now is come out with a statement saying they will open an investigation of EU261 practices in all airlines operating in the UK and set-up an advice line where passengers of all airlines can call up and get advice over flights which they have took over the last number of years and claim compensation from their airline and the CAA will back them up.

Compliance with EU261 directives is an industry wide problem and needs to be treated as such rather than dealing with Ryanair's issues and then avoiding the actual wider issue which needs to be tackled.

Its amusing watching politicians and CAA support EU261 but strange they refuse to implement it on US Airlines. Watching the media say how great the law is while on the other hand damming EU laws as unacceptable. Hypocrisy much,

If the CAA are interpreting EU261 in a way that is incorrect then Ryanair can follow their interpretation and then challenge it in court. A Judge finding that interpretation and demands by CAA were unreasonable and not backed by any case law would end up CAA paying ALL the costs involved in it.

Someone at CAA is attempting to make a name for themselves.

[racedo]

Sky news reporting

CAA: Ryanair has not replied to meeting request ahead of 5pm deadline for airline to meet obligations to customers affected by cancellations

Ryanair governed by IAA not CAA..

CAA will try and do this in the Court of Media Opinion but when it gets to Legal Court they may find the Judge interprets it differently.

[daz211]

True but in the eye of disgruntled customers yet again Ryanair look like they still have no respect for customers or the law they may as well just still two fingers up at everyone yet again PR disaster.

[DublinPole]

If the CAA are interpreting EU261 in a way that is incorrect then Ryanair can follow their interpretation and then challenge it in court. A Judge finding that interpretation and demands by CAA were unreasonable and not backed by any case law would end up CAA paying ALL the costs involved in it.

Someone at CAA is attempting to make a name for themselves.

I'm getting a letter sent off of complaint off to a couple of airlines tommorow and cc'ing the CAA demanding full compensation be enforced for when airlines refused to do what they are now trying to force Ryanair to do because clearly I am owed money.

The Ryanair letter being in the public domain is very handy for me since it can be used against both the airlines and the CAA if the former doesn't want to pay up or the later doesn't force them to, needless to say I've quoted their words in my complaints.

I will let people know how I get on but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

[DublinPole]

True but in the eye of disgruntled customers yet again Ryanair look like they still have no respect for customers or the law they may as well just still two fingers up at everyone yet again PR disaster.

Thing is though if it goes to court and the courts don't agree with the CAA and Ryanair's revenue are hit because of these demands from the CAA then I'd assume that the CAA would have to compensate Ryanair for that.

I'm not saying it will happen but if the CAA grandstand on this and are found to be wrong then it could be an expensive bill for them.

[daz211]

From sky news

Ryanair says it will respond to regulator's call for it to sort compensation for customers affected by cancellations before 5pm deadline

[SWBKCB]

I think what irritates me is that the regulator are only taking action when it hits the headlines, when it appears to have been standard practice amongst some airlines for years. Certainly I was one of hundreds of EZY pax who were refused alternative travel in BCN last year.

Even now the EZY website says alternative carriers are only offered if they can't you to your destination in 48 hours - is this right?

In the unfortunate event that your flight is cancelled you can transfer to another easyJet flight for free or if you’d prefer you can get a full refund....

If we’re unable to get you to your destination within 48 hours you can switch to another airline, take a train or bus or hire a car. The alternative transport should be within the price range you paid for your original return flight or as close to it as possible.

[BigFrank]

Still largest part (sic) and both ruling partys (sic) lost seats.

So why exactly did mutti not achieve the colossal victory which all and sundry predicted for her?

And what exactly is the long term future of Ireland in the EU27 as a net contributor?

[BigFrank]

Can you tell me of a single company where employees receive dividends because they are employees ?
There isn't one.

Please re-read my post.

¿ Or just read it ?

[BigFrank]

Even now the EZY website says alternative carriers are only offered if they can't you to your destination in 48 hours - is this right?

No, it is not.

[DublinPole]

This is an industry wide problem and the CAA need to treat it as such rather than picking and choosing who they are going to enforce it on.

EASYJET
If we’re unable to get you to your destination within 48 hours you can switch to another airline, take a train or bus or hire a car. The alternative transport should be within the price range you paid for your original return flight or as close to it as possible.

That doesn't sound like it complies on many grounds, especially with the restrictions on price and the timeframe limits that they are putting on it

WIZZ
Cancellation information

If your flight is affected by a disruption (see below), please log in to your profile, retrieve your booking and you will be able to re-book online free of charge, or obtain a refund.

Again this is clearly not adhering to the kind of guidelines that the CAA are trying to implement.

[DublinPole]

I think what irritates me is that the regulator are only taking action when it hits the headlines, when it appears to have been standard practice amongst some airlines for years. Certainly I was one of hundreds of EZY pax who were refused alternative travel in BCN last year.

My sentiments exactly, it's not a good sign of a regulator when they are only regulating and standing up for passenger rights re-actively rather than proactively dealing with all of those who are not complying with EU regulations.

You should put a claim into Easyjet right now and use the CAA's letter and their interpretation of the rules as basis for that so they have to pay out, if they don't write to the CAA and push them to force Easyjet to do it.

If they still don't do it write to the EC and complain that Easyjet is not adhering to European regulations and the CAA are refusing to enforce EU regulations as is their duty as the regulator in the UK.

I'm not defending Ryanair here, simply saying that this is far from just a Ryanair issue, the fact that airlines have been able to get away with it for so long is the reason that so many airlines are at it since they knew the regulator has been toothless in the past.

[DublinPole]

Ryanair expected to come out fighting now over what they believe is cherry picking of airlines by the CAA in relation to enforcement action.

I would be interested to see if they now made a complaint to the European Commission.

[Mr A Tis]

When I was disrupted (not by RYR but a UK lo co) I was given the runaround. Did not bother faffing with the CAA or the ADR schemes, all toothless. Instead small claims court was straight forward and of course in the end the lo co coughed up. It's a game to them and it's time the CAA sorted it out for all carriers.

[vikingivesterled]

Ryanair has buckled:
Ryanair Explains How And When It Will Re-Route Customers Affected By Flight Cancellations | Ryanair's Corporate Website (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-explains-how-and-when-it-will-re-route-customers-affected-by-flight-cancellations/?market=ie)

They could have ignored the CAA, but it would have been worse ignoring Varadkar with a bit of their own regulator the IAA thrown in:
Varadkar calls on Ryanair to ensure passengers' rights are protected | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/varadkar-calls-on-ryanair-to-ensure-passengers-rights-are-protected-807862.html?utm)

[DublinPole]

Ryanair now are questioning why the CAA are not doing anything about BA

Ryanair has called upon the UK CAA to now require UK airlines to comply with these EU261 obligations which the CAA did not apply to British Airways in May this year, when a computer meltdown stranded hundreds of thousands of British citizens/visitors at London Heathrow and many other airports, with no apparent action taken by the CAA in respect of re-accommodation or enforcement against British Airways.

[DublinPole]

When I was disrupted (not by RYR but a UK lo co) I was given the runaround. Did not bother faffing with the CAA or the ADR schemes, all toothless. Instead small claims court was straight forward and of course in the end the lo co coughed up. It's a game to them and it's time the CAA sorted it out for all carriers.

To date the CAA however has shown a blatant disregard in dealing with issues with their airlines registered in their own country so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[vikingivesterled]

Wonder if there have been some high level talks beween Belfast, Downing Street and Dublin. Why don't FR just reinstate the Scotland and Belfast routes, saving face and Christmas. The rest of Europe is pretty quiet about the whole thing.

[owenc]

So, if I contact Ryanair now, I will get my refunded flight, rescheduled?

http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-explains-how-and-when-it-will-re-route-customers-affected-by-flight-cancellations/?market=ie

I need to know because I'm going to pick up the phone and call them now.

[DublinPole]

Looks like Ryanair are now trying to expose the EU261 con for what it really is now, endemic throughout the industry rather than the solely Ryanair issue the CAA are painting it out as.

[BigFrank]

I would suggest it is very very patchy at best and non-existent at worst; with the latter being the median enforcement position.

I seem to recall when I followed another website (since disappeared) concentrating on a pan European overview of this issue, that there were some slight indications of serious enforcement attempts in some Nordic country/ies. Denmark, perhaps. But broadly little if any serious interest.

Certainly I can recall an attempt personally here in the Kingdom of Spain about 7 years ago to get some leverage from the Spanish CAA over a short notice cancellation by a Spanish registered carrier. To describe to reply received as unhelpful would be to err on the side of generosity. Wildly so, indeed.

To the present:

If this attempt at enforcement by the CAA on Ryanair, certainly the biggest single-brand carrier in Europe is to be taken seriously, and I would suggest that the jury most certainly is still out on the issue, then wonderful.

And of course sauce for the Irish goose is sauce for the Spanish gander. And all winged species in between, irrespective of domicile.

(I note an inference in an earlier post to the effect that US airlines are de facto exempted from enforcement action under these provisions. Can anyone confirm?)

[El Bunto]

who are Aviation Finance & Leasing S.a.r.l.? A Luxembourg company which had Neil Sorahan and Howard Millar on its board. Amazingly enough both at the time were associated with Ryanair. Such a small World don't you think...

[DublinPole]

[quote=BigFrank;9908010]I would suggest it is very very patchy at best and non-existent at worst; with the latter being the median enforcement position.

I seem to recall when I followed another website (since disappeared) concentrating on a pan European overview of this issue, that there were some slight indications of serious enforcement attempts

I think it's great if the CAA are going to take this hard line across the board and apply it to all airlines, all of the time.

I remain to be convinced that they will though.

[BigFrank]

I recall clearly posting on another website some several years back to the effect that the EU had then recently introduced a simplified procedure for relatively small monetary compensation claims against organisations domiciled in a country other than that of the claimant.

The essence of this was/ is that there was no obligation to use (exceedingly expensive) legal representatives but that any lay person could reasonably pursue his/ her claim personally, even in a country such has Spain where there is no tradition of personal representation in court proceedings.

The principle was that you went to your local court and that they handled the claim and subsequently they forwarded it to the company in the other EU country.

Can anyone remind me of this mechanism; so that I don't have to go trawling through Mr Google again !

[BigFrank]

I think it's great if the CAA are going to take this hard line across the board and apply it to all airlines, all of the time.

I remain to be convinced that they will though.

As indeed am I; see previous post.

Though it is only 3 minutes to the initial "deadline" as I post.

[DublinPole]

Ryanair has openly called out BA in their latest press release so it's going to be interesting what the CAA does in relation to that because if they don't take any real action or are not seen to be taking action against British Airways then they may start asking questions as to why that might be and that may not be a comfortable place for the CAA.

Although generally post March 2019 it'll probably not matter what the CAA do.

[BigFrank]

I knew it was there !

https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-en.do

Maximum claim 5 000 € [4 408.00 GBP at this very moment.]

The above link admits that new regulations dated July 2017 are not incorporated.

They may be in the following; though I don't have time to check at the moment.

European small claims procedure – make a claim without going to court - Your Europe - Business (http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/resolving-disputes/small-claims/index_en.htm)

[BigFrank]

Although generally post March 2019 it'll probably not matter what the CAA do.

As March 2019-March 2021 are currently pencilled in for "no change," it might be much safer to date this comment for March 2021?

And in terms of content, the concept of enforcement post Brexit is surely more rather than less important. Though obviously EU261 will be a dead letter then.

¿ Obviously ?

[BigFrank]

BBC 5 live currently covering new Ryanair posture

Not all that clear, I would say.

Attempting to oblige customers to only claim re-routing on a list of Ryanair-preferred-airlines.

Not at all impressive.

Also promising to meet reasonable out of pocket expenses for cancellations beyond 2 weeks i.e. outside the scope of EU261. "Write in and tell us your claim" says the BBC.

Who says that Ryanair doesn't have a sense of humour?

[DublinPole]

CAA have claimed they have wrote to 30 airlines asking them to confirm they are complying with EU261 regulations.

Back to light touch regulation it seems, why regulate when you can take someones word for it.

[ryeandair]

Ryanair governed by IAA not CAA..

CAA will try and do this in the Court of Media Opinion but when it gets to Legal Court they may find the Judge interprets it differently.

Looks like someone hasn't read the Enterprise Act (2002) recently.

[owenc]

I am filling out the EU261 form, but it only allows for one flight (not a return flight) and I cannot find a place to put my bank details (account number, sort code) etc.

[ayroplain]

The CAA can, justifiably, be deemed to be the equivalent of a hometown referee, the kind who only awards penalties against the away team.

[a_q]

This all has nothing to do with on-time performance and very little to do with staff annual leave.

The big problem here is crew shortage. Rumour from within says RYR are losing approx 150-200 pilots and cabin crew every couple of months. Hundreds of pilots, cc and engineers went to J2 since opening STN and BHX bases alone. Approx 400 are currently work their 3months notice as we speak.

Their policy of "everybody is replaceable, you want to leave? Get out" is unsustainable and big changes need to happen...fast.

Is this really the case - in which case what happens to their aircraft - do they just sit there idle? I can't see how the company can sustain that as a business model.

My parents had a delay coming back from eastern europe a few weeks ago and successfully claimed almost £400 each from Ryanair... far in excess of the original cost of the fares.

They have framed a copy of the cheque.... ;^)

[vikingivesterled]

Now that that sour grape has been squeezed out, let a couple of pilots drive to Belfast every day to do a rotation to LGW, reinstate at least 1 plane in STN to do 4 daily rotations to Scotland, and the political pressure will disapate. A couple of concessions to pilots, reduce profit expectations with 0.5% (the market will expect something after new camels swallowed), pause seat sales for a week or two, and this will all die off by the end of October. Ready for desperate Christmas travellers to bag a bargain.

[racedo]

So why exactly did mutti not achieve the colossal victory which all and sundry predicted for her?




Nobody was predicting a colossal victory for her.
Opion polls were in the range of 34-36% with a 3% MOE.
Not a single poll predicted the same share of vote as 2013.
Therefore achieving 32.9% was within that range.



And what exactly is the long term future of Ireland in the EU27 as a net contributor?

I believe the Irish people are quite happy to remain part of EU.
I travel there frequently and seldom have heard anybody seeking EU exit.

[racedo]

Please re-read my post.

¿ Or just read it ?

Again please provide me details where employees receive dividends because they are employees.

[racedo]

The CAA can, justifiably, be deemed to be the equivalent of a hometown referee, the kind who only awards penalties against the away team.

And that will surprise nobody.

They will claim "it is different, it is in the past, it is not applicable and they will conduct a ful investigation" and find nothing.

If CAA hasn't case law behind them then it is going to get very expensive because they will be paying out.

[A4]

Well EZY employees have received 2 weeks salary value (to a max of £3k) in free shares for the past few years (not last year) which then also attract dividends each year.......so that’s free shares and dividends for being an employee.

The shares must be held for 3 years before they can be sold free of tax. All approved by HMRC.

[racedo]

You get the shares after a qualifying period of 5 years but you do not get dividends by being an employee.

[DublinPole]

European Cockpit Association have now attacked the Irish Aviation authority saying that they were guilty of: "deliberate wrong interpretation of European safety rules" in relation to Ryanair.

The IAA has since rejected what it says are false, misleading and irresponsible statements and no Irish airline can operate without adhering to all safety regulations.

[A4]

@racedo

If you want to split hairs that’s fine - I’m an employee, they give me FREE shares which subsequently ATTRACT DIVIDENDS.....which, if you’re smart, you reinvest into more shares and so it goes on....... A lot of EZY employees have made a significant amount of money over the last 10 years or so doing this. So, I think it’s fair to say that EZY employees do get shares and dividends purely by dint of being and employee. QED.

You are correct that it’s 5 years for Performance Shares but DIVIDEND SHARES which are issued based on your holding can be sold after 3 years tax free.

The fact is EZY employees have recieved shares and dividends FOR FREE because they work for the airline.

[The Flying Cokeman]

I agree with A4. EZY employees get free shares and dividend and like A4 I reinvest my dividend in new shares.

[ayroplain]

European Cockpit Association have now attacked the Irish Aviation authority saying that they were guilty of: "deliberate wrong interpretation of European safety rules" in relation to Ryanair.
Really? That sounds pretty much like slander to me - especially the use of the word "deliberate". If the IAA are to have any credibility they should see the ECA in court or demand a public apology in lieu.

[DublinPole]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0929/908384-ryanair/

Towards the end of that article.

[LTNman]

I see Emirates are holding 7 UK wide events for their pilot selection programme according to their banner advert on PPrune.

3 are at Stansted, 3 are at Luton and 1 is being held at Gatwick. Wonder if they see Ryanair as a potential source of trained pilots together with Easyjet and Monarch:E

[SWBKCB]

Now that that sour grape has been squeezed out, let a couple of pilots drive to Belfast every day to do a rotation to LGW, reinstate at least 1 plane in STN to do 4 daily rotations to Scotland, and the political pressure will disapate. A couple of concessions to pilots, reduce profit expectations with 0.5% (the market will expect something after new camels swallowed), pause seat sales for a week or two, and this will all die off by the end of October. Ready for desperate Christmas travellers to bag a bargain.

a Ryanair "MEGA sale now on. We've got over 1 million seats on sale from only £9.99!" email popped into my inbox overnight.... :eek:

[eu01]

As the result of MEGA uncertainty among Ryanair customers? With so many cancelled flights and routes, it feels safer to book with others, n'est-ce pas? Moreover, I'd expect further schedule changes still to come, to eliminate gaps resulting from all these reductions.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Reading BBC RYR have bottled out and say they will offer punters flights on alternative carriers etc. ... So book their silly fares and you could find yourselves flying with a proper airline ... if RYR are still in business by then that is!

[WHBM]

If CAA hasn't case law behind them then it is going to get very expensive because they will be paying out.
I think some of us here may be getting a bit fed up with all the Ryanair lovey-doveys threatening legal consequences to all and sundry who dare to criticise their beloved carrier and it's executives (including such a comment directed at me personally upthread).

[DublinPole]

If you just want the authorities to sweep under the carpet the fact there as problems with EU261 and passengers getting their rights across quite a few airlines who are not fully complying then that is your choice at the end of the day.

However as a consumer I want to see EU261 regulations RIGIDLY enforced across the entire industry, if you take a look at quite a few airlines websites you will see that there are quite a few who don't seem to see it the way the CAA have said Ryanair should see it.

Personally I don't stand with any organisation or airline this, I stand with the consumer and as a consumer I want to see the antics of denying passengers their rights clamped down on across the whole industry rather than the aissez-faire approach to regulation of this regulation we have seen until now.

And for avoidance of doubt I don't think this is a problem that is a CAA one, I think it's a wider industry one and there have been reports and complaints going back a very long time in many states about how carriers are handling EU261 legislation and it needs to be dealt with.

Ryanair are by no means angels, but you're exceptionally naive if you think that all other airlines are telling everyone all of their rights and offering them everything they have to in the way that CAA has said Ryanair have to.

[racedo]

@racedo

If you want to split hairs that’s fine - I’m an employee, they give me FREE shares which subsequently ATTRACT DIVIDENDS.....which, if you’re smart, you reinvest into more shares and so it goes on....... A lot of EZY employees have made a significant amount of money over the last 10 years or so doing this. So, I think it’s fair to say that EZY employees do get shares and dividends purely by dint of being and employee. QED.

You are correct that it’s 5 years for Performance Shares but DIVIDEND SHARES which are issued based on your holding can be sold after 3 years tax free.

The fact is EZY employees have recieved shares and dividends FOR FREE because they work for the airline.

I am fully aware of how it works.

You get dividends if you have shares only not because you are an employee.

[racedo]

I think some of us here may be getting a bit fed up with all the Ryanair lovey-doveys threatening legal consequences to all and sundry who dare to criticise their beloved carrier and it's executives (including such a comment directed at me personally upthread).

You made a claim that doesn't stand up in any way shape of form against an individual.

Adding to that you made a claim that somehow Ryanair was making underhand deals with same individual and TPG to Boeing for aircraft.

As I pointed out the shareholdings of Ryanair is publicly available information. Dealings that take place between related company has to be publicly declared in its annual report.

All of a sudden, amazingly, some people start to realise that the information is actually out there and has been for years.

You are long enough on this forum to be aware where false and misleading claims were made for years, in particular against Ryanair.
I believe none (possible only one) of the posters are still on here because their claims were called on and they given 2 options.
None of the bravado of "we will see you in court" occurred after they spoke with their lawyers.
They got off lightly with a public apology, a donation to charity and their posts removed v as one has stated on here personal bankrutcy.

There is no Anonymity for what we post.................. that is in a sticky at the top of the board. Free Speech does not exist.

[A4]

@ Racedo ........ whatever :ugh:

[scotneil]

Head of the CAA says they cannot withdraw routes from Ryanair, as they are registered in ROI, not UK. Surely, however, some punitive action is possible - suspend overflight or take-off/landing rights: 6 weeks of "restricting" their activities would go a long way to solving Ryanair's piloting situation - and UK customers would KNOW that their flight was cancelled.
BTW, Ryanair have the cheek to advertise on TV- I saw an advert on Thursday evening - although I could hardly believe it !

[racedo]

So exactly what did you advocate BA should be hit with as a punitive steps for what they did in summer ?

As for wanting to take unilateral action........................ are your really that stupid that you advocate country aviation authorities do things when they feel like it ?

So BA loses all overflight rights across Russian Controlled Air Space for flights to the Far East ? or Ireland does the same for BA flights to the US ?

France banning BA overflights or vice versa.

Knee jerk reactions make good reading for stupid Daily Mail readers.

[vikingivesterled]

The CAA is just rubbing it in now. Replacement buses are certainly a good economical idea for multi-frequency overland routes like Scotland-London, and well doable within fares already paid. The list of other airlines, shown in the press that CAA had berated in the past, contained only non-UK based airlines. Giving the impression they have become a bit protectionistic, helping their own national airlines milking the issue with the nit-picking about the 3x limit. If alternative flight costs goes well above original paid Ryanair should be in its full right to look at alternative forms of transport. But the media is of course all full of people that think they will be bussed from the UK to Mallorca or Greece.
Ironically in this case then Uber drivers might replace pilots after all.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Head of the CAA says they cannot withdraw routes from Ryanair, as they are registered in ROI, not UK. Surely, however, some punitive action is possible - suspend overflight or take-off/landing rights: 6 weeks of "restricting" their activities would go a long way to solving Ryanair's piloting situation - and UK customers would KNOW that their flight was cancelled.
BTW, Ryanair have the cheek to advertise on TV- I saw an advert on Thursday evening - although I could hardly believe it !

But that managed to kick Van Air's butt!

[j636]

September traffic up 10% to 11.8 million while LF up 2% to 97%.

Quiet impressive growth with everything happening.

Sept Traffic Grows 10% To 11.8m Customers ? Load Factor Rises To 97% On Lower Fares | Ryanair's Corporate Website (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/sept-traffic-grows-10-to-11-8m-customers-load-factor-rises-to-97-on-lower-fares/)

[j636]

Letter:
Michael O'Leary pens impassioned plea to Ryanair pilots to get them to remain at the airline - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/michael-oleary-pens-impassioned-plea-to-ryanair-pilots-to-get-them-to-remain-at-the-airline-36201239.html)

[mikkie4]

2 faced wotsit

[01475]

Ha ha! So there's going to be two years of an "always getting better as an employer" plan, following which they'll start charging pilots for taking their case on board?

I like how, even when they're trying to suck up (a bit, while gently reminding that they hopefully won't go bankrupt), they treat people as a computer algorithm and miss the point. The base by base pay thing could end up being a horrible mess that misses the point.

Do they really know if the formula is as simple as that? Instinct tells me that a lot of their offbeat bases in the middle of nowhere will have an interesting mixture of staff. There'll some people who want to be somewhere random and who would work for less because nobody else employs flight crew in [insert name of random place], and there'll be people desperate to escape from the sticks and get back to civilisation who'd take a pay cut to do it...

Also, if I was a competitor I'd start making wacky offers to Ryanair pilots in strange places, just to see if I could increase their costs :p

[Harry Wayfarers]

I run my own business, earlier this year I clearly wasn't offering sufficient salary so I increased it, not next month or next year, not based upon productivity, I increased it immediately, I got the staff and despite competitor business trying to poach them my staff are sticking with me.

Talk is cheap, if he actually put his hand in his pocket NOW it might help the situation!

[RAT 5]

Also, if I was a competitor I'd start making wacky offers to Ryanair pilots in strange places, just to see if I could increase their costs

Tranferring all contractors to proper employee contracts would do that. If you were a competitor why would you not ask the question to those who could insist upon it?

[True Blue]

Ryanair must be under some pressure to send out a letter like that. Could you ever have imagined them sending a letter like this?

[Harry Wayfarers]

But read between the lines ...

According to Wiki RYR makes a profit of circa 1.5 billion Euros annually yet MOL has the audacity to offer the pilots, and only the pilots, more money but based on productivity ... isn't 1.5 billion a year enough for the :mad:? :)

But Flight Operations, the pilots, are the highest paid department of any airline, what about the engineers, cabin crew, office staff etc. who are underpaid and treated like poo also, if I were one of them then should he knuckle under to the pilots then I would be one of the next group of employees to vote with their feet also.

Yes ... Don't go to Norweigan, they are in financial :mad: street because they treat their staff too well, stick with us because whilst you work your butts off our shareholders are laughing all the way to the bank!

[compton3bravo]

I would have thought the letter would have been better presented with Dear Colleagues instead of just Ladies and Gentlemen (no ampersand) but that is MOL for you.

[DC3 Dave]

London Underground staff have been instructed NOT to use Ladies and Gentlemen in either written or verbal form as it is no longer considered fully inclusive. So as a modern chap (sorry - person), I'm with you on this one, Compton!

[inOban]

He is struggling to find appropriate terminology. Colleagues would give them a status as partners in the enterprise that he doesn't consider they have. They're not employees or staff since Ryanair doesn't employ them directly but contracts for their services with nominally independent companies. I'm sure ppruners can suggest some accurate but unprintable alternatives.

[sky9]

This is what the Guardian reported
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/21/ryanair-boss-holiday-plans-michael-oleary-flight-cancellations

Judge lets fly at apologetic O'Leary over 'pathetic' lie - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/judge-lets-fly-at-apologetic-oleary-over-pathetic-lie-26644711.html)

Interestingly they also reported this which would have a major effect on employment practices.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/03/ryanair-pilots-hmrc-investigation-airlines-uk

[Sober Lark]

Dear Colleagues instead of just Ladies and Gentlemen (no ampersand) but that is MOL for you

I don't think you are not colleagues of your boss.

Ryanair is a successful airline that have been doing their work well. Like most organisations it has a few school yard bullies that act as if they were forced to join the airline and have been held there against their wishes. If things are so bad and they can't make ends meet and the glass is always half full etc etc, why don't they just leave? I for one would prefer not to have a disgruntled pilot in charge of any aircraft I fly on. Remove them.

[compton3bravo]

Not colleagues of the boss but colleagues of the COMPANY. A few school yard bullies you're having a laugh!

[Harry Wayfarers]

There are times when O'Leary needs to keep his mouth shut, take an extended holiday or whatever, and leave it to his senior management to sort out the mess that he has created ... But he simply can't do it!

[Falcon666]

First head rolls at Ryanair after pilot scheduling fiasco - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41533625)

One gone , but will it be the last?

[inOban]

But they're not colleagues of the company either; for that they would have to be members of staff.

[Harry Wayfarers]

First head rolls at Ryanair after pilot scheduling fiasco - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41533625)

One gone , but will it be the last?

Tell him to apply to Norwegian, everybody else is apparently :)

[Sober Lark]

But they're not colleagues of the company either; for that they would have to be members of staff.

PC gone mad or PC making us nicer?

Resignation to be expected. It's company law here.

How do you handle a disgruntled pilot? They really should be identified, removed from their position and offered appropriate help.

[Harry Wayfarers]

How do you handle a disgruntled pilot? They really should be identified, removed from their position and offered appropriate help.

You'd need to catch them first as they make their way to Norway :)

[RAT 5]

A friend of main, ex-RYR, told me of an earlier F/O colleague who gained their command. They are now a B7878 captain in China on U$25,000pm and loving it. All paid up expenses and a commuting roster. 10 years on, roll up your mat , find a part-time flying job and enjoy the sunset somewhere nice & warm before you are 50.

[fatmanmedia]

Ryanair 'run like a communist regime', says pilot - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41384789)

[eu01]

Well, the European communism had been largely ineffective. The "early capitalistic" term would be more appropriate here.

[Sober Lark]

Harry, do you think Norway really wants persons who are addicted to unhappiness?

When it comes to aviation matters I'm afraid the UK media are very parochial and biased. Monarch, loses so much money it is forced to close down disrupting many hundreds of thousands of passengers yet they get the stiff upper lip treatment with absurd headlines comparing the fiasco to the nobility of the Dunkirk rescue. Oh, come on!

[racedo]

There are times when O'Leary needs to keep his mouth shut, take an extended holiday or whatever, and leave it to his senior management to sort out the mess that he has created ... But he simply can't do it!

Er what mass he created ?

He not in charge of rosters which is where it has started............

[racedo]

Harry, do you think Norway really wants persons who are addicted to unhappiness?
!

Norwegian have got to start generating lots of cash.................... they know it as well.

[DublinPole]

Something odd.

The last day or two I've noticed sponsored paid for ad placements on Social Media linking directly to articles claiming that there is to be a strike or a mass walk out by cabin crew and a few other things.

Some of these advertisers would include established media outlets who are essentially linking to their own articles detailing the same, I cannot imagine why a media outlet would want to pay money to promote a negative article about Ryanair in this way.

Is it possible that there are other parties behind this or do any media outlets have any shareholding or other interests in the airline industry in the UK and Ireland?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Er what mass he created ?

He not in charge of rosters which is where it has started............

From my past experience, and from what I have been reading he has p1ssed so many staff off demanding that they pay for uniforms, training etc. etc. etc., I mean Mr Ryan sent him to Air Southwest to see how they do it and he returned to pretty much change the way the industry did things.

I've read that RYR, O'Leary, were given two years notice to change their accumalative hours dates and they left it, and left it, and left it, until it was too late to do it over a reasonable transitional period ... Did MOL not know about that and kick ass before now or, as an accountant, was he too pre-occupied counting the billions going in to the company bank account?

And why are so many pilots leaving ... Is the bloke in charge of Operations responsible for that also, was he the one that reduced their terms and conditions to diddly squat whilst utilising them on illegal self-employed contracts?

And as a P.S. I worked for the guy who invented the low cost airline!

[RAT 5]

My Dad had in his office a big sign that read:

"Remember. things always go wrong from the top not the bottom."

Who's at the top? Question answered. That's where the buck stops. Glory & rewards come with responsibility.

[vikingivesterled]

How can you plan a whole years worth of hollidays and flying limits if your long term schedules are 6 months out and your short terms like rostering are only a few weeks.
When one grows up as an airline one have to give up a litle of flexibility for stability and predictability. Have at least a scenario schedule for a full year out to work from. Something that shouldn't be to difficult since for the first one knows how many airccraft will be at one's disposal, secondly one can predict approximately how many crew based on current levels, average recruiting and training combined with how many is historically leaving. Now if one has a computerised system, and is using its portential, one can create full year worst and best case roster scenarios, see where there is slack and offer leave booking opportunities accordingly. This results in a minimum flyable schedule. Then later add flights to that if recruiting goes better than hoped or less crew leave.
If one is a low fares airline it is after all easy to seat sale additional capacity. And cheaper than to re-accommodate, and compensate to the letter of the law, passengers on cancelled flights. And to a positive reception in the markets rather than negative headlines.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I read somewhere that RYR have 404 aircraft and 4,100 pilots, i.e. 2050 flight crews, that's only 5.07 crews per aircraft which doesn't sound very many, in my day an industry standard was around 6 or 7 crews per aircraft.

If each crew is entitled to one month's annual leave then there should invariably be 170 crews on leave at any one time and should they not be taking their leave then leave be allocated to them, so, on the line, 2,050 crews has been reduced to 1,880 crews so we're down to 4.65 line crews per aircraft ... It gets worse!

Then, as each season's schedule is published they can realise how many duties there are per week per aircraft, i.e. if it takes 3 crews per day to operate an aircraft then that is 21 duties per week, divide it by 5 (duty days per week) and it shall take 4.2 line crews to operate that aircraft and this doesn't take in to account other duty days for crew training or similar.

As a double check they can realise how many block hours are scheduled per season, even if the there is no thereafter season yet published they know their business model and can ballpark a figure of block hours, and then divide that figure by the 900 hours per crew per year, perhaps add a 5% for luck and now they have realised, double checked, how many crews they need.

Then, should crews be directly employed, then they be contracted to a three months notice period, an industry standard, so in the event that they quit Human Resources and Flight Operations have three months to recruit and train required replacement crews.

But ... in my past experience CEO's, Commercial Departments etc. strongest suit isn't listening when it comes to spending money, whatever number of crews they may be told they need to employ they have a habit of reducing it whilst expecting more and more blood out of the same old stone.

But RYR's business model seems flawed, from the figures I've read it seems they didn't have enough crews in the first place, that many of their crews are self-employed contractors so they can walk out without even tendering any resignation whilst RYR seem more interested in putting billions away in a bank than reinvesting, particularly in staff moral.

[Andy_S]

But RYR's business model seems flawed, from the figures I've read it seems they didn't have enough crews in the first place, that many of their crews are self-employed contractors so they can walk out without even tendering any resignation whilst RYR seem more interested in putting billions away in a bank than reinvesting, particularly in staff moral.

Careful Harry. You're setting yourself up for some serious incoming........:E

[vikingivesterled]

The ballpark numbers of set of crews per aircraft just becomes more difficult to operate when you run fewer aircraft in winter season than in summer, then increase the summer season. In addition you increase the fleet in batches, but at different numbers from year to year. Besides even 5.2 sets of crews per aircraft sounds massive for an airline that started out with 4. And unnervingly close to the then short-haul industry standard of 6.

There is no need for such ballpark figures when you have an automated system that can give you "real" cover, and targets for recruiting, far into the future. No exec will ignore a forecast of weekly numbers put in front of him/her, telling that at such and such time the schedule won't work. Many of them are after all accountants and used to exact numbers and balances or at least weigthed guideances, rather than statistical approximates and rules of thumb.

[canberra97]

From my past experience, and from what I have been reading he has p1ssed so many staff off demanding that they pay for uniforms, training etc. etc. etc., I mean Mr Ryan sent him to Air Southwest to see how they do it and he returned to pretty much change the way the industry did things.

I've read that RYR, O'Leary, were given two years notice to change their accumalative hours dates and they left it, and left it, and left it, until it was too late to do it over a reasonable transitional period ... Did MOL not know about that and kick ass before now or, as an accountant, was he too pre-occupied counting the billions going in to the company bank account?

And why are so many pilots leaving ... Is the bloke in charge of Operations responsible for that also, was he the one that reduced their terms and conditions to diddly squat whilst utilising them on illegal self-employed contracts?

And as a P.S. I worked for the guy who invented the low cost airline!

It was the Dallas, Texas based Southwest Airlines not Air Southwest which as you know was a UK regional airline based in Plymouth until it was taken over by Eastern Airways.

Ryanair don't 'demand' that staff pay for their training or uniform it clearly states in their contracts that they have to, saying they 'demand' is a bit over the top.

But regardless of those two comments I generally agree with most of what you have posted.

But you can't really compare Laker to Ryanair!

[Harry Wayfarers]

The ballpark numbers of set of crews per aircraft just becomes more difficult to operate when you run fewer aircraft in winter season than in summer, then increase the summer season. In addition you increase the fleet in batches, but at different numbers from year to year. Besides even 5.2 sets of crews per aircraft sounds massive for an airline that started out with 4. And unnervingly close to the then short-haul industry standard of 6.

There is no need for such ballpark figures when you have an automated system that can give you "real" cover, and targets for recruiting, far into the future. No exec will ignore a forecast of weekly numbers put in front of him/her, telling that at such and such time the schedule won't work. Many of them are after all accountants and used to exact numbers and balances or at least weigthed guideances, rather than statistical approximates and rules of thumb.

But if, as an average, they can only operate some 17.5 block hours weekly then that is only perhaps three days flying duties so fly them four days per week in the summer and only two days per week in the winter whilst scheduling any ground training classroom duties for the winter, RYR will still be getting their 900 hours per 12 months out of the poor souls.

RYR's accumalative year was April till March but were given two years notice to change it to January till December, now to move three months in one move would have been a significant headache to continuously check and cross-check that crews weren't busting 900 hours.

What I would have done would be ask the authority if during year one we can move to March until February, then the next year move to February to January and by the time year three came along we could move just one month again to the required January until December and I'm confident that any reasonable authority would have agreed to that.

It appears RYR management sat with their fingers up their butts when they would have had every opportunity to use any initiative they may have!

[RAT 5]

If each crew is entitled to one month's annual leave then there should invariably be 170 crews on leave at any one time and should they not be taking their leave then leave be allocated to them, so, on the line, 2,050 crews has been reduced to 1,880 crews so we're down to 4.65 line crews per aircraft ... It gets worse!

Ah, but if you do not allow any summer leave and then park up 25% of the fleet for the winter and allocate 1 months leave (i.e. a whole years worth in one pop, almost) during the winter when there is no work any way, you might just get by. In this current situation that 6 month plan had to be squeezed, at the last minute, into 3 months, Ooops.

[Harry Wayfarers]

But when I did Recruitment, that was after I did Crew Scheduling :) , RYR were so squeezed for crews during their apparent 'parked up' winters that we would be placing Excel's contract pilots with RYR to bail RYR out of the poo!

It sounds like that someone got carried away trying to save so much money whilst maximising profits they lost sight of reality!

[DublinPole]

Actually the problem was they were more interested in providing short term good customer service by large use of standby crews to maintain the punctuality record and recover service during disruption, strikes and bad weather at the expense of sustainable management of pilot hours.

Ryanair subs in extra crews to recover service and to keep flights on time when other airlines simply allow delays to build and build to the point where crews run out of hours and then flights are cancelled. If they took the same approach as other airlines they'd be able to run the pilot schedules more efficiently at the expense of later running flights and more short notice cancellations.

[Harry Wayfarers]

The expression "a prevention is better than a cure" springs to mind"!

[vikingivesterled]

If you operate a long backroom schedule and roster it accordingly, you can see how many flights you can crew and avoid selling flights you can't. You can also see that 12 into 9 won't work before you start selling it. If you sell 6 months out but operate with a rolling 6 week roster, one day you will have to tell your boss that you 5 weeks out can't make the following week work since you don't have enough crew to cover the already sold flights. And at that stage it will be to late to recruit and train people to make up the shortfall.

I remember when the published roster was only 1 week out. This worked when they where a small airline and the following cancellations didn't affect hundreds of thousands of people that got huge press and gained political interest. You could disappoint only a small percentage of your total customers with a simple refund. They've just discovered that being the big-boy also have some disadvantages.

Problem is you are never going to roster far enough out using just more manpower. It will be a case of too many cooks and too litle oversight. And what about running scenarios. We are talking making up maybe 3 or more alternative full year rosters with different parameters. Luckily others have already had the problem, solved it, and FR just have to utilize more of the resulting tools with some adjustments/localization.

[oldart]

Is it the norm for airlines to expect their crews to take annual holidays in autumn or winter? Obviously a company would expect to have maximum crewing during the summer but do they have spare crews to take holidays when they want to?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Not in my experience, take 50% in the summer and 50% in the winter ... or thereabouts ... Else how the hell are we going to lay off our summer only contract crews whilst all these fruitcakes want to take their skiing holidays? :)

[compton3bravo]

A grand total of 102 flights have been cancelled from/to Spain from this evening until Wednesday due to a French air traffic strike. I make no comment and leave you to make your own minds!

[GAZMO]

Wow that's some list of cancelled flights on their website

Other airlines do not appear to be cancelling. ATC strikes not covered by EU261so only refund or rebook

[vikingivesterled]

easyJet has a notice up on their latest-travel-information, but do not provide a list of flights, instead chosing to (partial quote) communicate only with affected customers via email and sms. Guess Ryanair is trying to avoid worrying those not affected, as per previous problem.

[Vokes55]

This is a tactic Ryanair have been using for at least two years. French ATC strikes are a godsend to them, as it allows them to cancel almost any flight that goes anywhere near France, and they have an 'external influence' to avoid compensation claims, whilst saving pilot hours to crew future flights.

What they don't tell you is that they don't train all crews to fly Oceanic routes, so whilst every other airline can fly around French airspace on the Tango routes, they can't. Why would they, it's more cost effective for them to cancel the flight than increase fuel burn and pilot time during times of strike.

All just my opinion, of course.

[Alsacienne]

And the T9 corridor? Also going up the Belgian border ...

[vikingivesterled]

So who is running operations now, and have the power to make snap decisions about major multi-reroutes increasing costs but saving what is left of reputation.

[BFS BHD]

When is Ryanair expected to receive their first 737 MAX 200?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

22% pay rise for STN pilots if they continue to negotiate with ERC and accept by 20 October. Also includes more direct employment. MAD also made an offer.

Ryanair offers 22% pay rise to Stansted-based pilots (http://www.rte.ie/amp/911645/)

[davidjohnson6]

New routes for summer 2018
Athens - Billund
Athens - Gdansk
Athens - Karlsruhe
Athens - Lappeenranta
Athens - Lodz
Athens - Memmingen
Athens - Rzeszow
Athens - Vilnius
Ahtnes - Wroclaw

[vikingivesterled]

If you know there is going to be a 1 day disruption due to atc strikes, with spare aircrafts why not reschedule some of the flights you can't reroute, for the following day. You know there will be a lot of passengers you now have to feed and overnight. And if your loads are consistently around 90% you are not going to reaccommodate them all on other own flights in the near future. You could use the crew that would be at the end of the working part of their 5/4 rosters and move 1 of their working days 1 day out, plus some standbys. If slot restricted just move the times slightly.

Being in the eye of a better educated public, on the watchlist of regulators, and having to stick to the rules at times of cancellations means one have to think in new ways you before didn't want to. Sample, now need to have prearranged rates and agreeements with low price hotels and bus companies at least near your bases, so you can just call and block book at reduced rates. Plus the need for trained on-call extra ticketdesk staff and floorwalkers.

Also need new insights into how much a disruption really cost you since with a get your own food/transport/accommodation and claim back attitude, actual numbers will only be available months down the line and more difficult to pair to a specific event.

[racedo]

If you know there is going to be a 1 day disruption due to atc strikes, with spare aircrafts why not reschedule some of the flights you can't reroute, for the following day. You know there will be a lot of passengers you now have to feed and overnight.

EU261 dioesn't apply to strikes.

[Trav a la]

I think that statement is open to interpretation.

[vikingivesterled]

EU261 dioesn't apply to strikes.

EU261 monetary compensation don't but duty of care do. That interpretation is now done. So food, accommodation and rescheduling will be needed even though the set amount won't be due. Maybe even rescheduling with competitors or other modes of transport. If you are not prepared there will be uncontrollable amounts of claims later, after people have bought their own accommodation, local transport and flights at highly inflated prices.
The 5 quid vouchers FR is handing out is probably more than the army spends per soldier per day in food. And fold-out beds in emergency shelter are also accommodation, and much cheaper than a hotel the passenger finds themselves resulting in a bill in the post or via small-claims down the line. If its offered and they refuse it it becomes their problem.

Being the largest carrier is a different ballgame where everything you do affects many, plus gets massive press so is monitored by politicians and therefore regulators. One can't get away with as much. Other regulators than the UK's are preparing their cases so some preperatory action is needed. FR let the genie out of the box and it ain't going back in unless it becomes a UK no deal airline or IRL leaves the EU and it falls apart.

[owenc]

Can someone help me? I rebooked a Ryanair flight at a cost of £100 with Easyjet and then claimed EU261.

This morning, Ryanair contacted me to inform me that I would not be entitled to the EU261 and would not be getting my £100 back.

This £100, I need it back, it came out of my monthly allowance for university, I wouldn't have taken it out if I wasn't guaranteed to get this money back.

I am a British citizen and the CAA threatened Ryanair into giving this EU261 thing back.

Anyway, they've declined my money. I see no reason why they would do so, since a: not my fault, b: told that they have to give it back by the CAA, c: They don't offer another flight option from London back to Belfast, so they couldn't have rebooked my flight on their airline and so I had no choice but to rebook on Easyjet!

[owenc]

This is the piece on the BBC News website that spurred me to rebook, expecting money back:
You can apply for a refund. Even if it is only the outbound portion of the flight that is cancelled, you can still get a refund for the return leg, assuming you do not want to use it.
Or you can chose an alternative flight - perhaps on an earlier or later date. In most cases Ryanair will offer you another flight with them.
However, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) says that if Ryanair fails to offer a place on an alternative Ryanair flight within a reasonable timeframe then you have the right to be booked onto a different airline at no extra cost.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41305537

Surely, this applies to me, since Ryanair has cancelled both the Stansted Flight to Derry and the Gatwick flight to Belfast?

[owenc]

Our original notification sent in respect of this cancellation offered you the appropriate EU 261/2004 entitlements, which included either a refund or a free date change.

As you were notified of this cancellation 14 days (or more) in advance of the scheduled departure date of this disrupted flight, we regret to advise that you are not entitled to monetary compensation under Regulation EU 261/2004.

Then, they say this at the end though:Furthermore, please note that we are ready to reimburse your receipted expenses; therefore in order for us to complete the payment, we kindly request you to upload your bank details (as the bank details provided are incorrect) by using the below link:

Does this just infer the refund for the flight or the 100 pounds? I am confused?

[Trav a la]

That interpretation is now done.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it would be misleading to say that prior to a precedent setting court case which defines it precisely.

For instance, BA flights getting caught up in the French ATC strikes are probably EC's, as the cause of the strike is outside the control of BA.

BA flights getting caught up in a BA staff strike is within the control of BA, so not an EC.

What about a RA flight being cancelled due to French ATC strike but the flight does not fly into or even near French ATC controlled air space? It cannot be directly caused by the strike, so not an EC.

Just because strikes are quoted in the regs as a possible EC does not mean that all are. The devil is in the details and every case must be examined on it's merits, which is what the regs also say.

[vikingivesterled]

Trav a la - What I tried to get through was that duty of care will be due whether cause is EC or not, so preparatory action will be paramount to reduce those costs. And instead of thinking hotel on the beach and overpriced airport food, the low fares basic service part of the industry needs to be thinking emergency hurricane shelter and soup kitchens. Which is what the state would provide in similar circumstances.

[LGS6753]

owenc -

Try moneysavingexpert.com, a UK based consumer rights website that explains a lot, but has a forum where such questions can be put.

Best of luck.

[racedo]

Trav a la - What I tried to get through was that duty of care will be due whether cause is EC or not, so preparatory action will be paramount to reduce those costs. And instead of thinking hotel on the beach and overpriced airport food, the low fares basic service part of the industry needs to be thinking emergency hurricane shelter and soup kitchens. Which is what the state would provide in similar circumstances.


Duty of care will also sit with the French ATC who called the strike.

[Buttie Box]

Anyone else out there get an unsolicited recruitment email from Ryanair saying how great it would be to work for them? I've never applied. Bit creepy.

[NorthEasterner]

Ryanair have started to make changes to their boarding passes to make the implementing of 1 bag policy easier from 1st Nov.

Mobile boarding passes with priority will be in a different colour and state 2 bags permitted. Non-priority will clearly display only 1 small bag is permitted whilst their main cabin bag will be tagged for free of charge at the gate.

Similar features will be in place on paper passes and airport boarding passes.

It will also mention refusal to follow policy will result in travel denied and no refund given.

[vikingivesterled]

Duty of care will also sit with the French ATC who called the strike.

I fully agree and I wish everybody the best of luck with getting their outlays back from French ATC, or even the unions. But I think we all know that when it comes to ATC, money is a one way street as long as an airline wishes to continue flying to and through their airspace. Best one can hope for is that they will sort out the current problems and reduce the amount of future closures/reductions. But there will always be new/different ones which require steps taken now.

[Trav a la]

Sorry to be pedantic again but there seems to be some misunderstanding about what a 'duty of care' is and who is liable to pay it. It's not the French ATC for a start.

In all instances of EC the airline owes the passenger a duty of care, this includes drinks, meals, limited phone calls, hotel accommodation plus transport to and from hotel. It is also onerous upon the airline to make the appropriate arrangements, however, they often don't, and thats where many problems and confusion arise. In some cases, such as BA computer failure, it would be impossible, due to the sheer scale of the problem.

This also stands for long delays and cancellations etc. with some qualifications.

Sorry for the thread drift but feel accuracy is important.

[racedo]

Sorry to be pedantic again but there seems to be some misunderstanding about what a 'duty of care' is and who is liable to pay it. It's not the French ATC for a start.

Sorry for the thread drift but feel accuracy is important.

Like with everything that hasn't been tested fully in a court ................. one day it will and Govts will not want to give Unions carte blanche a right to be able to strike with zero consequences.

Example would be a Union decides not to allow an Airline to be refuelled at an airport where they have total control of everything, Airline being refused ability to move planes because Union efefctively blockades them and Govt claims airline must continue to pay compensation would be the extreme end of it.

[waffler]

Racedo,
You obviously work for Ryanair in some sort of financial/management position judging by your posts.
Perhaps you could give us your view on your companies treatment of its staff, on which you appear to be silent.

[racedo]

Yawn........................ this old one

Nope I don't.

[Trav a la]

Like with everything that hasn't been tested fully in a court ................. one day it will and Govts will not want to give Unions carte blanche a right to be able to strike with zero consequences.

Example would be a Union decides not to allow an Airline to be refuelled at an airport where they have total control of everything, Airline being refused ability to move planes because Union efefctively blockades them and Govt claims airline must continue to pay compensation would be the extreme end of it.

Sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with the EC261 regulations that we were debating.

[racedo]

EC261 will get tested when case is right, Govt cannot claim to hit airlines with EC261 while allowing their business to be damaged and Govts doing nothing.

If a Govt allows a strike and then claims Airlines must pay the cost while refusing to deal with strikers then Airlines will ultimately sue Govt.

[vikingivesterled]

Article 13 do open for the carrier to seek redress from a third party for any outlay it has had to compensation or care.

If we are into pedanticism; EC261 also says "right to care" for the passengers, not "duty of care" for the airline.
And although it first says accommodation is to be a hotel , in the next line it defines accommodation as "hotel or other". And no definition of a "hotel" is included. The only judgement I can see on the definition of accommodation is that it must be more organized than a bench in a public area of an airport, or an extra compensation of a 100 quid could be due.
Which brings me back to that even BA could have housed all its disrupted passengers needing overnighting, on sample; fold-out beds in a sportshall, if they had contingency plans for that sort of major event laid down beforehand.

[Trav a la]

EC261 will get tested when case is right, Govt cannot claim to hit airlines with EC261 while allowing their business to be damaged and Govts doing nothing.

If a Govt allows a strike and then claims Airlines must pay the cost while refusing to deal with strikers then Airlines will ultimately sue Govt.

EC261 is a piece of European legislation, it is UK law. Passengers, Jo public and businesses all live with the law.

It is not against the law to strike.

Sue the government, yeh good luck with that.

Welcome to the real world!

I won't bother discussing your confused, unrealistic scenarios any further, life is too short!

[Trav a la]

Article 13 do open for the carrier to seek redress from a third party for any outlay it has had to compensation or care.

If we are into pedanticism; EC261 also says "right to care" for the passengers, not "duty of care" for the airline.
And although it first says accommodation is to be a hotel , in the next line it defines accommodation as "hotel or other". And no definition of a "hotel" is included. The only judgement I can see on the definition of accommodation is that it must be more organized than a bench in a public area of an airport, or an extra compensation of a 100 quid could be due.
Which brings me back to that even BA could have housed all its disrupted passengers needing overnighting, on sample; fold-out beds in a sportshall, if they had contingency plans for that sort of major event laid down beforehand.

You're not MOL in disguise are you?

Your ideas are right out of the RA good ideas book. Like paying for the loo, standing passengers etc etc.

[alm1]

Still I think airport accommodation could be improved. Last time airline gave me a nice 4* star hotel I thought I would have been better off if I didn't bother and slept on a couch in departures. Getting directions, leaving terminal, passport control, finding hotel shuttle, waiting for it, going to hotel, waiting to checkin, going back, going through security etc - out of 8 hours or so I had only 4 hours for sleep left. Any airside shelter with quick access to bed, food and shower would have been many times better.

[racedo]

EC261 is a piece of European legislation, it is UK law. Passengers, Jo public and businesses all live with the law.

It is not against the law to strike.

Sue the government, yeh good luck with that.

Welcome to the real world!

I won't bother discussing your confused, unrealistic scenarios any further, life is too short!

Really so you don't believe people can sue the Govt and win ?

Who is being unrealistic now ?

EC261 is European law hence ECJ will be final arbitrator on it, course when Brexit happens then UK can just get rid of all those EU laws that it hates being imposed on it.
Strange those publications who push Brexit it love an EU law so much.

[airbourne]

Racedo: Winding up Anti-Ryanair fans since 2008! :D

[mik3bravo]

OMG are people STILL moaning and whinning about this blip. Honestly people, it's a first world problem, people need to get a serious sense of life perspective in a world gone mad.

Jesus wept.

As regards comments about allegedly how an employer threats employees. Are employees that bloody weak they are either incapable or unwilling to take responsibility for their career choice decisions. You enter an employers operations eyes wide open and you take responsibility and accept the T&C of contracts. If you're unhappy with the T&C either put up or shut up or find employment at a shop where you're happier. Take control of your personal circumstances and take responsibility for your personal life choices but honestly, quit the weak moaning and whinning its not an employers problem
. I'm sick of hearing the moaning, if you ain't happy, move employer it's really that :mad: logical. Are people that dumb they can't take basic life decision's on career choice and employers of personal choice. If you can't find what you want well then maybe it's time to rethink your choice of profession and reskill into another profession. Honestly, I don't know how some people survive from the moment they step outside their home into the wider world.

[racedo]

Racedo: Winding up Anti-Ryanair fans since 2008! :D

ROFL............... can't top that

Do miss so many people who left when they got caught.