Thomson recruitment.

[rjay259]

Hi all

Thomson are opening up their recruitment for type rated B757 and B737 pilots.

Check out tuitraveljobs.com will be on there soon, opens 18/8/2014.

Closing is on the 22/8/2014 1700L.

Cheers.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Presumably new entrants would all join as FOs, no DEC?

[More lookout]

No DECs.

Best of luck

[Harry palmer]

Any possibility of Non rated experienced people at any point?

[seven3]

Hi all

Thomson are opening up their recruitment for type rated B757 and B737 pilots.

Check out tuitraveljobs.com will be on there soon, opens 18/8/2014.

Closing is on the 22/8/2014 1700L.

Cheers.

thanks a lot !
;)

[pickers]

Hi,

For your information we will be opening our recruitment for 737 NG Type Rated Pilots and 757 Type Rated Pilots on Monday 18th August on our Careers web site. The positions will close at 1700L on Friday 22nd August.

If you have friends who want to apply they should use the following links:

737 Type rated
External link - https://tuijobs-uk.mobolt.com/show_job_page?id=79213&aid=11697


757 Type rated
External Link - https://tuijobs-uk.mobolt.com/show_job_page?id=79219&aid=11697


At the moment we will not be opening any recruitment for cadet entry pilots or for non-type rated. Should this situation change I will advise you.

[Matey]

Council Van

Historically the positions have been for permanent part year contracts working full time in the summer and part time in the winter for , off the top of my head, circa 80% of full time pay. There have also been some temporary contracts offered which, in the main, have turned into permanent positions. The exact nature of this recruitment round has not been released, but will be detailed in the above links when they become active. There are no current plans for cadet or non type rated entries.

[Pin Head]

I would only be interested in full time

Good luck then. Do it part time for a summer then wait to get the full time position.

[FLAPS RUNNING]

Where are the 75's based?

[WISH2FLY]

75's LGW and LTN I believe

Requirements for 73 last time were current and minimum 500 hours on type - guess it will be the same this time.

More details on Monday when it opens

[Matey]

John Smith,

Joining TOM as a career move at 30 would imply a 35 year career. Chances are you would achieve command in that time scale! Seriously though, there have not been many command opportunities in recent years, although a group recently achieved commands initially temporarily, which have just been made permanent. The company is regarded by many who join as a "career airline", so turnover is low, and times to command have exceeded 10 years. Who knows what the future holds, but hopes of a quick command would not be a good reason to choose Thomson.

Council Van,

I guess that depends on whether 80% of full time represents a pay cut on your present scales, with the prospect of a 20% pay rise in the future. (80% of current new join FO scale is roughly £44500). On top of that would be company loss of licence of £50000, £8.95 an hour duty rig, £164000 death in service benefit, £450 for working on a day off, medical paid for, uniform provided, private health cover etc etc. These are all subject to current negotiations between BALPA and the company as part of ongoing pay negotiations, the pilots having recently rejected the original RPI offer. Sometimes it's about more than a headline salary figure.

[beamer]

757 based at MAN/GLA/BHX/LGW/BRS. Bristol may change to 737 but the old bird will be around for some years yet elsewhere.

[WhyByFlier]

Great, so all you need to do is lose your licence or die and the company give you a pitiful, short term amount of money that gives you not a lot for anything! In easyJet for example we get a lot more than that. Private health cover is good though - nice perk!

[rotafix]

Does anybody know anything about numbers and potential start dates?

[FLAPS RUNNING]

Thanks beamer

[Matey]

WhyByFlier
Fine...stay at EZY then. All I can say is that recent new joiners from other carriers have found the experience a positive one. Each to their own.
Rotafix
I am afraid no details have been released regarding numbers. As far as start date is concerned, again no detail at present, maybe the ad will give more information, but you could expect at the latest to be up and running for the start of the summer 15 season in May.

[rjay259]

For those on a 756
• Type rated on B757?
• Have a minimum of 300 hours on B757?
• Have a minimum of 100 hours B757 in 12 months prior to application.
For those on a 737
• Type rated on B737NG (600, 700, 800, 900,)?.
• Have a minimum of 300 hours on B737NG (600, 700, 800, 900,?.
• Have a minimum of 100 hours B737 300-900 in 12 months prior to application.

ASSESSMENT DAYS WILL BE HELD AT THE END OF SEPTEMBER AND TRAINING COURSES FOR SUCCESSFUL CANDIDATES WILL COMMENCE EARLY 2015

Detailed info on the job site. Links are in a post above.

[FlyingTinCans]

Where would new 737 guys likely be based?

[rjay259]

Honestly no idea but expect it to be places like Cardiff Doncaster Newcastle and alike.
Don't expect Gatwick, as a few pilots recently moved in.

[JB007]

And 50% in the winter!

[Boeing 77W]

Salary is reduced across 12 months to account for the 50% winter working, as already stated it's circa 80% of full time pay. Full time pay on joining due to the fact you start and are training during the winter season. Maximum of five years on PPY50 (Permanent Part Year) before being made full time.

[Boeing 7E7]

....and 15 years to a command! Now that Thomson Airways has lowered its cost base in the form of new contracts for new pilots to the airline that are very similar to the competition (easy, Norwegian etc) why would anyone join?

Make no mistake, there are some very well off pilots in Thomson who have been in the company many decades and who have terms and conditions which would make you blush. But new recruits will be joining a B737 operator on similar terms and conditions to other LCCs and any perceived financial gain in the beginning will be easily eroded away by the lengthy wait to command.

[Oliver72]

@ Boeing7E7: better stay in RYR then ?

[Boeing 77W]

Boeing 7E7 I appreciate it's not what it used to be. But considering a majority of the 737 rated guys will be RYR and having done time there, I would rather be in the RHS at Thomson for 15 years than anymore time in RYR...even if I could have been LHS after 4-5 years. The T&Cs still beat what's on offer elsewhere.

[Globemiester]

Does anyone have any contact details for the recruitment peeps at Thomson? I have a couple of questions I needed to ask and all of the ones I can find online (phone numbers etc) seem to be generic and of little use or not still connected. The reason for needing to ask directly is that I'm ex military and I know in the past they have been keen supporters of hiring people like myself. Please inbox me if you do. Not a fan of openly sharing this kind of info. Thanks in advance.

[DooblerChina]

The salary is similar to other locos but the t&c's are still excellent and let's not forget our add ons for example a level 2 SSH is worth 170 quid. Plus a 15% pension package and the chance of longhaul in the future and it's still a good deal. Time to command in an issue granted.

[FlyingTinCans]

Thanks rjay259,

How long is the list for guys wanting to move to LGW? Are we talking a year or so wait or longer?

[Boeing 77W]

Last year a number of FOs moved in who had been in the company for less than a year however these were the first new guys into the company for some time. Those that are moving there for Summer 2015 will have been here for two years by the time they move.

It's very difficult to say. All depends on how many people they recruit this year, where you fall in seniority, fleet changes etc. But I would think you're looking at around 3-4 years minimum...but don't hold me to that and others maybe able to advise better :}

[DooblerChina]

Base moves are done on a seasonal basis and in seniority order not first come first served.

[Pin Head]

Disagree with 15yrs to command. I ve done 8.5yrs and still have at least another 10 to go. Lots of fun things in between though (757.767. Canada, etc)

If you want an easy life in the uk come, if you want to live life with change go elsewhere.

[pudoc]

Why is 7k knocked off first year?

[JB007]

Thanks for posting that 2d!

Who'd have thought I'd be a lot better off at Yorkshire Airlines!

"Wipe 'tha bloody feet..."

[rjay259]

Remember that the figures quoted are basic salary, they don't included flight/duty pay and if you do any flexi working payments that is on top too.
Also if you are 737 the ability to goto Canada will aslo add in.
Duty pay is about £8.95 for fo and a flexi is worth £490ish, I think someone put the correct figures on here already but I haven't had time to search as my six week old and three year olds are giving me gip.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

You're also forgetting the £3.50 (approx) per hour Flight Duty Allowance. (Based on duty hours)
The £8.97 figure is duty rig which is based on flight hours and is factored for 'unsociable' hours. (x1.8 for the worst hours)
Both of these can make a sizeable part of your income.

[Scott_T]

How strict will they be on the requirements? I more than enough 737 hours but I have not flown in the last 12 months... Is it still worth applying?

[BN2A]

If you don't ask, you don't get......

:p

[Dreamshiner]

Is it just me or are Aviation HR departments sometimes got an inflated opinion of their company?

Essentially with the restrictions, (over 300 on typed aircraft and 100 in the past year) we are looking for you to come to us (no doubt from another employer based on said restrictions) and take a reduced salary initially on a seasonal contract.

For that we offer a UK base and one of the best T&C's outwith BA/Virgin however we are doing our best to dilute that as much as possible with a company with one of the longest time to commands in the industry.

Oh yes and we want you to be current and ideally done 3 T/O's and landings in the previous 90. If you're not we'd like it if you self fund a renewal before commencement of employment however we will give you extensive SOP training and stick you in a sim before releasing you to line training, revalidating your LPC only a few weeks later. However the element of training risk is removed and you will be a couple of grand lighter in the pocket.

[twogoodstarts]

Any idea on wait time for the 787 for new starters onto the 757

Thanks

[carbheatout]

What are the skippers like in TOM? Do you generally have a laugh when you go to work? Is it myth that there are a lot of stuffy old dinosaurs well past their sell-by-date?

It's an important consideration when one is contemplating spending 15 years in the RHS there.

[More lookout]

Skippers in Thomson are just ace, but then I'm biased! It's like life, take 400 ish skippers, there will probably be one or two who you might have a personality issue with (that could be from both sides of the cockpit of course). To judge the working environment, consider how many actually resign of their own accord, that's the real test of what it's like at Thomson.

Good luck

[oceanhawk]

For those worried about the 80% contract, all I can say from meeting the new guys who joined last year on it, bar none they were all delighted about the move.( of course , it depends what was left behind). In my biased opinion it's a top job in the UK.

[McBruce]

I'm a new joiner on the PPY50 contract, my take home is currently better than my previous only because of the day off working payments topping it off each month (overall the package is superior!). I've been fortunate enough to have been offered quite a handful, without them then first year income isn't the best, so trying to forecast the coming winter months this is potentially where the pinch will be felt, less flight/duty pay and probably very little day off payments to offer. I could be wrong if there's a busy flying schedule! A handful of the new joiners are heading to Canada this winter on full time and additional payments, so opportunitys are present if you have flex.

Ideally I would've liked the OCC costs paid back after X years service if the sole reason for the payment is to mitigate risk.

As for the skippers, all great, had an old school Britianna guy for the sims, one of the best blokes I've met so far!

Sorry to say for anyone who just falls shy of the recency/hours requirements, an email went out this morning highlighting that if you don't meet the criteria then your application will be ignored.

In short I think it's one of the best jobs in the UK.

[Matey]

Scott T
That would always depend on the level of response to the ad. If past experience is anything to go by then the exact criteria would have to be met. Simply a means to filter the large number of applicants for a relatively small number of positions. (and no I don't know how many positions are being offered!). If I recall correctly there were in excess of 700 initial applications for around 19 positions last time around, so the company can apply the criteria strictly in order to arrive at a manageable interview list.

[Tarisio]

Closing date for type rated applications extended till 0900L Tue 26th Aug

" primarily as a result of announcements made by Monarch this week and the impact it may have on their pilot community"

[Run-and-break]

Does anyone have any idea on response time now that the portal has closed?

Thanks.

[Matey]

The recruitment sessions are planned for the end of September/ beginning of October, so I guess people selected will be informed fairly soon. Lots of applications, so it will take a bit of time to go through them all.

[Bobermo]

Just received an email stating that I am not invited.. So they are probably sending out invites now, good luck to all!

[mesh]

friend just received invite to interview, group exercise and tech test.

Can anyone shed any light on what the technical test is. Is it like a 757 tech interview or something random. Also a case study, any ideas?

Many thanks for any help

ps. mate has approx 2500 hours on type if people wondering

[intheclouds1]

Has anybody heard anything yet since their interview? They said by mid November so should be any day now..

[beamer]

New Commands, new recruits for summer 15.

[DooblerChina]

Yes, they have recruited recently a few cadets from internal sources. One cadet worked in a Thomson shop flogging holidays... a few months later on the line!! quite a story really. They all had 200 hour fATPLs. That route hasn't been used this year, I'm not 100% why, however I suspect that the applicant base wouldn't have moved much so maybe they need a few years before that scheme can reopen.

If un live In the Luton area though, you could seriously look into jobs in HQ. Lots of our guys have come through internal recommendations.

Good luck

[PAPI-74]

Maybe because all of the TR'd experienced pilots told them to poke their 7k bond !
Welcome to the world of low houred crews, poor morale and even worse conditions than the previous season, but hey....we could maybe all join BALPA, cos that will really help!!!

[nosmo king]

PAPI-74, What are you talking about?

[DooblerChina]

PAPI, Your post wins random post of the day award. I've read it three times and no... still no idea what you're on about.

I was talking about non type rated crews employed from internal sources. By all accounts recruitment has gone very well and morale is generally very good.. although our outstanding pay deal is testing this.

[PAPI-74]

Sorry about that....another night with 2hrs sleep tends to detach some grey matter. My post was an unsuccessful reference to the many jobs going to cadets, while the experienced pilots, at first glance, are presented table scraps and being asked to pay 7k for the privilege. This clearly isn't the case everywhere, but..........to be honest, I have lost interest now anyway......TV has just got better.

[DooblerChina]

No worries, it's a bit of a guess but I'd say we have recruited 80% experienced in the last couple of years. The vast vast majority being ex Ryanair.

Although I do have sympathy with your point regarding the bond. I don't like it either.

[Toast30]

Unfortunately the 7k reduction in year one is simply an accounting tool to reduce the wage bill in year 1 and certainly not a bond. It is referred to as training costs. what these actual costs are nobody knows and no new joiners have recieved a breakdown. One of those things at interview where it's a case of like it or go home. I don't admire the union for allowing such a condition to be applied to new joiners contracts.

[Lumpawarrump]

Any chance of NTR again or is the only way through the school of Ryanair now?

[intheclouds1]

has anybody heard yet from their interview?

[blue up]

Slightly off topic, but...are the 2015 commands all going to be onto the 787 or will there be 737 command courses?

[mesh]

757/767 guys waiting to get start dates, I think they are sorting out crewing and aircraft levels before notifying the successful ones in December. I think we(Monarch) are due to loose a chunk of 757 drivers to them. Some didn't get the job, some have but are going elsewhere and some are taking it.

[DooblerChina]

Blue, it'll be a mix I think, although majority 73. There's a matrix somewhere with available positions. I'll PM it if I remember this weekend although I'm level 2'ing tomorrow so I'll probably forget by then.. remind me!

[blue up]

Top man!
I'm still on PHI but hope to back soon (... just in time to be passed over again.) :(

[intheclouds1]

any 737 guys heard anything since the interview?

[mesh]

The friend I know has been interviewed for full contract but part year working to begin with, is this correct?

[Reacher19]

As far as I know those that were successful at the assessment stage were emailed a week ago and told to expect further news in December. I assume once the base moves etc have all been completed. GLA

[mesh]

Some colleagues have received offers this week but others not. Can anyone shed any light why this has happened? I'd it just admin time to call people? Have they reduced numbers? Are they just contacting those set for March start? Any info would be great, my mate starting to stress slightly having been told they have a position. Pm me if you need to, thanks

[DooblerChina]

We are still waiting for an internal bid to be published so I suspect the need is not fully finalised.

[mesh]

Thanks for your help, fingers crossed

[DooblerChina]

Mesh, I can only imagine the complexity of finalising exactly what they want to do next Summer is causing the delays. There is a huge program called one aviation meaning we operate as a virtual European airline now so whether TOM recruits next yet will depend as much on how much flying we will do in Europe or of course vice versa. There is a subtle expansion going on as well including a 73 into Brisol but who is going to fly it is anyone's guess.

Good luck

[DooblerChina]

Bid published last Friday so hopefully news soon. Although if nothing heard by the 24th, I suspect it'll be the new year. Just my opinion of course.

Good luck to those in limbo.

[rjay259]

So who's joing the party so to speak. What new faces can we be happy to see.

[intheclouds1]

I've heard that a lot of people still haven't been called with an offer yet.. does that mean that all the places have been filled and those who haven't heard haven't made the cut?

[Lead]

Recruitment is open again.

[Matey]

Here is the link to the recruitment ad
Welcome to the careers portal of TUI Travel UK & Ireland, a leading international leisure travel group. (http://gs12.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_tui02.asp?newms=jj&id=79213&aid)

[Harry palmer]

Any chance of Non Rated recruitment?

[Matey]

I'm afraid not. Still specifically 737 type rated only.

[FlyingTinCans]

Any ideas what bases will be offered?

[Iver]

Are 757/767 slots going to internals? Were many Monarch 757 guys/gals picked up?

[Matey]

There is no mention of bases at the moment.The major bases such as MAN and LGW are not usually on the list. Having said that, some previous applicants who joined at the smaller outstations have subsequently been able to successfully bid for a move to a more desirable base from their point of view at a later date. There have been some bids from 737 to 757/767 internally with around 24 pilots transferring . There seems to be some fairly major re-planning of the summer programme at the moment, hence this new recruitment round.

[CaptYanknBank]

Hi Matey.

Do you know what the major replanning involves?

Cheers.

[Matey]

I don't, but this re-opening of 737 recruitment coupled with a re-run of the internal pilot bidding process indicates something is afoot.

[rjay259]

You mean they got the numbers wrong again? Surely not!!

[DooblerChina]

Direct entry 757 was an unpopular move in our company as so many 73 guys wanted that fleet but were type froze. as a result the freeze was lifted and recent 73 joiners are moving fleets this Winter.

Meaning more recruitment on the 73 and less 75.

Well that's just my opinion but I don't think it's far off

[Iver]

How could the consolidation of all TUI brands impact pilot hiring? See below:

TUI Group to push ahead with airline consolidation plans - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/35064-tui-group-to-push-ahead-with-airline-consolidation-plans)

[Lead]

Also a few guys are leaving for BA. Full time contract is a pay rise compared to guys at TOM hired onto part time one.

[Maxbrake]

Has anyone been invited to assessment yet? Also, how many people are Thomson looking to take on this time round? If there are 20+ guys from B737 converting to the B75/76, would this mean possibly of 100% contract for the current employees on PPY50?

[Weakness]

Maxbrake, I believe it will be a cold day in hell before the guys hired last year receive the offer of full time contracts, before the 5 year mandatory point unless they challenge it.

As for those considering joining Thomson, I would suggest that as xollob said above, factoring in the employer pension contribution rate of 15% should not be assumed to be what they will get for for the current employee 3.5% rate. If the financial remuneration is marginal between current employer and Thomson then one may come up short and need to reconsider.

I have also heard the word on the street is they plan to offer a much reduced rate to pilots joining this year, but the company have not shared that information with pilots about to join, that's bad news if the rumour is true and you've already given your notice to your old employer ......

I'd recommend anyone offered a job should get in writing what the contribution rates for their pension will be as part of the offer, I note the recent advert didn't detail it.

Also note those employed for just the last summer season did not get kept on, so if anyone suggests taking a summer only contract and paying the £7k out of salary for the training despite being rated already could lead to a permeant contract, take it with a pinch of salt.

Seldom smoke without fire, just rumours on a rumour forum.

[Matey]

I stand to be corrected, but as far as I am aware only one of the pilots recruited on a summer contract was not retained, and that was for performance related reasons.

[Boeing 77W]

Compare the list from August 14 to Feb 15, it appears as though all four of the pilots on a Fixed Term Contract were 'let go' :bored:

[Maxbrake]

Thanks for the info, is moral generally good at Thomson? Any real gripes or changes that could be implemented to improve working conditions?

[ConcordeLegacy]

Has anyone herd back with regarding an interview? I know some friends who have had the no thank you email but nothing for myself yet. Words are that they lost a few guys to BA recruitment and they are still not sure how many people they need.

[Superpilot]

Seems like a rather large seasonal surplus of pilots at Thomson. For comparison, around 30 new FOs have been hired at TCX since October and up till now (most are replacements for those off to BA). All were hired over winter and offered full time permanent positions from day one. World of aviation, never ceases to amaze.

[Harry palmer]

Out of interest were the 30 all type rated Bus and ex Monarch? Didnt see any recruitment advertised.

[Brenoch]

@ Maxbrake

Moral and morale are two entire different entities.

[Brenoch]

Generally I think most employees carry a certain degree of moral, and generally, I think the beatings will continue until morale improves, if that helps.

[Superpilot]

All bus rated and mostly not ex Monarch. Positions not advertised.

[Harry palmer]

Thanks Super pilot. Any chance of non rated comming up?

[Superpilot]

Highly unlikely I would say

[DooblerChina]

superpilot,

I'm not really sure what your point is regarding seasonality at TOM. All airlines have this issue To a certain extent, however, it has been managed down considerably at TOM over the past few years, in fact the 75/6 is manic year round, the 78 is actually reverse seasonal as most long haul is through the Winter..... only the 73 has the issues you allude to but with 9 aircraft going to Canada every Winter, the days of 3 flights this month are pretty much gone.

One only needs to look at the apron in Man on a Winters night, there can be 10s of aeroplanes mostly jet 2 and TCX... there are very few TOM jets sitting around idly.

[Superpilot]

You're being overly defensive. My comments were in response to someone highlighting that forced seasonal employment is still going on at TOM. I was simply comparing the situation to TCX which had the same "problems" in the past but clearly not right now as 30+ FOs have just started on a perm basis. I didn't intend for it to become all about TCX! :O

[Pilotyperson]

Thomson intends to impose a reduction in the employer DC pension contribution rate for new joiners from 15% to 7%. The first group of newstarters to be affected will be joining the airline on 26 February 2015.

[McBruce]

I would probably advise all new joiners not to sign the pension document and speak with TOM company council via BALPA to find out what's potentially In the pipeline. I believe the workforce won't stand for this change as it goes against agreements in place.

Your given the pension documents to fill out at a later date so seek that advice first so no rush to sign and potentially lock yourself in.

[McBruce]

I'm hoping the jack brigade stands up on this one, it's a necessity imo! If the company can just totally disregard agreements in place as well as the process and promises recently given, then everyone should be completely angered by this as we've basically been duped by their letters....it certainly ruffled my feathers and I support strong action against this.

Wrt to the pension, during my joining process, I was given the documents and had to fill out at home as it requires birth certificates etc so I would use this time wisely to seek council. Incase signing the agreement locks one in or makes it more complicated for the CC to reverse.

[WhyByFlier]

For the MON pilots joining TCX - out of the chip pan, into the fire:

Thomas Cook holds secret talks to offload airline arm | The Sunday Times (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/Retail_and_leisure/article1522146.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_02_21)

If you want to fly TCX pax join easy or Thomson.

[schooner]

Easy declined to renew the 2012 deal so not entirely true.

[CW247]

Ultimately all leisure airlines have their days numbered. Might as well join forces and team up now.

[yeoman]

Utter crap.

[CW247]

yoeman, have you not noticed how many EZY and RYR flights now fly into and out of the usual bucket and spade destinations? EZY might be able to champion the low cost long haul flight if they can get a headstart by buying the TCX airline (think Europe not just the UK). RYR could buy the TUI group airline :E

[Bravo Zulu]

Yeah, MOL with his award winning customer service! Getting a loco flight is one thing but a loco RYR holiday, No thanks!

[CW247]

So people fly with EZY/RYR to the likes of TFS, FUE, Kos, Iraklion to visit their relatives do they? They use cheap flights and sort out their own holidays/accommodation, and the trend is increasing dramatically as the air traveller becomes more savvy.

[Bravo Zulu]

You are correct, of course people book flights with RYR and book their own accom.
You said that RYR could buy TUI and I was amused by the potential of a "RYR package holiday".
RYR are only interested in point to point flying with no strings. Works most of the time, but not for example when you get left down in CFU for a week with all extra expense on the PAX like last summer!!

I agree with YEOMANS reply to your post 117...

Sorry for the thread drift!

[rjay259]

So had a notice today to state that Thomson will be recruiting again with the indication of group/personal assessments at the end of September begining of october.

So if your interested give em a look.

[Harry palmer]

What's the chance of them inviting Non Type Rated candidates this time?

[Lead]

Slim at best unfortunately.

[PAPI-74]

TR'd
Summer ONLY and you pay 7K for 'training' ???

[rjay259]

Can't hurt to apply tho,

[PAPI-74]

Naaah not on those terms......

[DooblerChina]

For info to prospective joiners, after a spirited campaign from BALPA and the pilot group, our new joiners this year maintained their pensions in line with the rest of the pilot group. It was a great result and showed that even though less than 1% of the pilots were affected, the 99% wouldn't accept it.

Unfortunately this isn't the end of the problem as the company has intentions of reducing new joiner pension provisions over the next few years. How this will pan out is anyone's guess.

The company makes no secret of its problem with seasonality and a new joiner should expect a PPY contract to potentially last for several years, added to this the £7000 one is expected to pay for training (this I find particularly unsavoury) makes TOM not quite the option it once was.

If however, one gets over the £7k and manages to get full time fairly soon then it can still be a good career airline.

Just my opinion, good luck to those who choose to apply later in the year.

[PAPI-74]

Career....good one!
12-15yrs to Command isn't a career. Neither is paying to join an airline fully experienced and type rated. They are a joke, along with the others racing to the bottom with their T's & C's, as they financially pat the bloke on the back who comes up with this s:oh:

[Easy Glider]

Don't think B.A is much less in terms of time to command. Are they not a career either ? Do agree with the rest though----part time contracts, paying for the job etc.

[PAPI-74]

Pilots are leaving BA because of the lifestyle. It isn't the end goal it was years ago....

[Easy Glider]

Pilots are leaving B.A ???? Know several who have joined......don't know any who have left. It's by far the best gig in the U.K.....Followed fairly closely by Virgin. From what I can tell the rest seem to be little more than garbage now. Shame really.

[olster]

Not the once mighty Britannia of yore unfortunately. Despite Balpa's best efforts the Ryanairesque intentions of the 'management' beggar belief. Another formerly great airline going down the tubes industrially for the enrichment of the greedy few at the top.

[Groundloop]

12-15yrs to Command isn't a career.

Before the massive (and continuing) expansion of the LCCs this was probably the norm in the industry. It seems some people today have been spoilt and expect too much!

[PAPI-74]

Fine if you are an FNG but if you have already ploughed years into the industry, you kinda expect a bit more than BA, J2 or TUI are offering, especially now EASA are in charge of the f:mad: FTLs.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Fine if you are an FNG but if you have already ploughed years into the industry, you kinda expect a bit more than BA, J2 or TUI are offering, especially now EASA are in charge of the f FTLs.

PAPI - Come on then tell me what's changed now that EASA FTL's are coming :\

[PAPI-74]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/20140218CAP371AndEASAGapAnalysisWorkingDocument.pdf

[rjay259]

Ok PAPI our messages crossed, if you are not a fan of Thomson then please feel free NOT to comment, you don't have to add very negative comments about the industry, we get it it's not what it was.
By the way well done for adding a link to a differences document that we couldn't all find on the CAA website.:ok:

Yes it's not great that the new guys are paying £7k for an OCC and they will be on a PPY50 contract but you speak to any of those that joined from RYR and they have all stated that it's 100x better.

The CC and the rest of the workforce will always fight to get better terms and we will always fight to keep the best terms possible. You don't see the turnover of pilots that easy, J2 or RYR have, as those that do work here do actually enjoy it.
:cool:

[PAPI-74]

Actually the 7k was the offer only a few months ago for type rated experienced pilots. It was kept very quiet until the interview and referred to as a 'training cost'. It sounds as though it is your first job and you are loyal, I understand, but you have been drip-fed the wrong info.

[Twiglet1]

Thomson one of the best and will remain as so

[rjay259]

I love the assumptions made by someone who was obviously told no.
The £7k figure has been around for a couple of years, first employer no it's not but I have been there now for ten years and thankfully don't beleive everything that is said.
Anunaki not sure what the requirements will be it will be great though if they do run the cadet scheme again, the four from last time are doing really well and from what I understand are enjoying the job they are now in.

It might not be for everyone and it might not be what the individual thought, there are also those who did get in and are scorned due to the fact that they had a summer only contract (which hopefully will never rear its ugly head again) and wasn't asked back due to some personality issues.
Good luck if you do.

[Stay or Go]

rj259
I shall agree with you, Thomson is a fantastic place to work there's no doubt, I would also encourage any LCC pilots who can, apply. The grass is definitely greener.

There are of course gripes from a new joiner and this isn't me having a go rj, but I assume that your on a full time contract and missed the cull a few years ago?!

There's lots to think about for any new joiner, your probably going to be on a reduced pension than everyone else, including PPY 50 for the full five years, year one you have the £7k OCC course to pay back (this is quite hard to swallow) meaning that year one summer, pay wise, is good, however the winter is a struggle, don't expect to fly more than two days a month......
This new One aviation is exciting, but being at the bottom of a seniority list is never a nice feeling....

After you get through year one the pay is fairly reasonable, couple with the perks you get mean that Thomson is a pleasant place to work. The long servers in the company might disagree with that statement, but trust me, from what you have come from, it really is day and night! You just have to get through year one first.

As I said before, expect PPY50 for the full 5 years, although a few are leaving to pastures new, there's no indication from the company what so ever and this is purely my own opinion, that this small number of those leaving may well bring an end to the PPY50 contract sooner than the 5 year period.

Good luck to all those that apply, you will love it if you get in!

PS rj, I didn't appreciate your comment about the summer contract guys, I know a few personally and a nicer bunch you couldn't have met, a few had personal recommendations from captains asking the company to keep them on and so I don't believe your comment about personality problems is very valid.

[rjay259]

S&G,
Please don't take offence at my comment, I also know that a very large percentage of the summer guys are and will be very very good. I also know they were very frustrated at the fact that the management fed the bull about being kept on. I also know that speaking with some TC's that there were a couple who they really didn't think would or should stay on. Remember it is a big company and there are those you will never hear about.

For the others of whom you know I apologise for my comment.

I did miss the cull a few years ago but not by much, my pension has also been kicked to the floor but yes it is better than what is being offered now and that is really what the CC and the rest of the pilot workforce will be fighting to improve.

I am not completely convinced by the one aviation thing, it may be the best route ever but until then I will remain a little bit sceptical. I hope we can remove the PPY50 for those who join and make it a purely lifestyle choice, maybe even allow trainers to take it to free up space lower down the list for those who really need and want the flying.
Laters.

[silverknapper]

It's a strange site this.

Jet2 offer a 70% contract for the first year, type rating paid for etc etc and are pilloried for it on here.

Thomson offer a far far more mediocre deal, ripping off type rated people and other than a few raised eyebrows no one cares.

[nosmo king]

No one cares......far from it.

[Weakness]

silverknapper, yes that is a good observation.


Those who join package is:
PPY50 - so that means full time May 1st - October 31st
Winter 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off
Pay is 81.3% spread over 12 months of standard salary for 5 years or unless made full time before that (not likely).


Full Time figures
FO £55,435 (1500 hours and 500 jet)
SO £44,348


81.3% for PPY50 (part paid year 50%)

new joiner SO - £36,054
New joiner FO - £45,068


Training Fees
£7k deducted (for training, even if rated)
so becomes
FO £38,068
SO £29,311
for first year of employment.


Monthly Take Home - Year one
A pilot with a standard 15/16 tax code of


FO MONTHLY £2,414
SO monthly £1,918


Over the summer there will be Duty Rig (hourly rate of £8.97 for FO or £7.17 for SO per flying hour) about £700 and basically also add about £3.80ish per hour for duty hours, works out combined total about £700-£1000 per month-ish (before tax).

(These figures are taxable, paid a month in arrears (so pay packet for June - Nov will be higher than Dec-May payments)

Duty Rig and Allowances are not pensionable and productivity based so no fly, no earn.

As mentioned above on 737 fleet assume next to nothng on duty rig and allowances over winter.

Pension - employee pays 3.5% employer USED TO BE 15% but that's a really bad news story the company tried to reduce new joiners employers contribution from 15% to 7% for this years new joiners (after they had given notice elswehere and didnt tell them). That decision has since been reveresed following intervention but only for pilots who have already joined - they have stated they WILL be doing this for new joiners from here on in - 7% pension, that is awful, whether that remains depends on the willingness of the union and company to fight ! But plan on that and there are no nasty surprises.

salary scales for 5 years are below, figures in brackets are the PPY50-81.3% (new joiner figures) of the figures below, there are further reductions for type rating if they go down the non rated route.


SO - 44,348 (36,054)
FO basic 55,435 (45,078)
FO after 5 years in rank - 60,765
FO after 5 years in rank and command suitable 66,095


To Jump From SO to FO need 1500 hours & 500 Jet Hours



*note the "in rank" element of the scales, so if you took 2 years to get from SO to FO and reach 1500 hours you then only just qualify the "in rank" as an FO, so in that example it would take 7 years before triggering the "FO after 5 years in rank" by the wording, no one has reached that point on new scales yet so it remains to be seen how they apply it.


After 5 years length of service the 81.3% is removed and you must be offered full time (you don't have to take it)


If that seems ok to you, then at least you know what the package is. They didn't have enough applicants or a high enough calibre in the last round, perhaps this is grounds to negotiate on the year one training fee if the same happens this year and they cant get enough because of the poor pension.


oh and just to add, if they go down the fixed term contract route like they have a few times (employ you from May - October and suggest there is a chance of a permanent job after) , it is the same terms just for the summer, BUT seek clarification of whether they will deduct the entire £7k for line training for the 6 month contract....I believe they do, OUCH). They didn't keep on the last lot of fixed term pilots, just binned them off after summer.

[Lead]

Weakness' post is pretty accurate, but add on a bit to all the numbers, full time fo now 58k after the inflation pay rise, so ppy50 about 48k.

I would also say you could realistically expect a bit more than 1000 a month in duty rig (flight pay) and fda in the summer.maybe 1300 or so. Not all of the fda is taxable, I think about 20% is tax free. But yes it's not pensionable.

Working day off payment is about 470.

[Boeing 7E7]

Two years ago Thomson received in excess of 900 applicants when it advertised for pilots, I imagine because it was seen as an excellent career airline.

Last year that number fell to just 40. Yes you read that right. Read into that what you will!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

PAPI
PAPI - Come on then tell me what's changed now that EASA FTL's are coming

Yep that's the regs but tell me what the major changes are at Thomson e.g. EASA has no limits on nights but how many will you be operating under EASA - Or is there no change???

:\

[Burpbot]

What happened??? Thomson used to be a decent company! RIP the industry as a career I fear!

[Harry palmer]

Only 40!!!!!! Maybe if they consider non rated experienced people they may get a stronger response. At least half of my outfit would move up to TOM if the opportunity was offered and it was a reasonable contract.

[Stay or Go]

I think the reason for the low number may have been due to two reasons,
1- it was very short notice indeed, not very well advertised and the company relied heavily on personal recommendations (which they never seemed to use?)
2- if you were unsuccessful the last time you were unable to reapply for 12 months..... This meant a lot of the past applicants couldn't then reapply!

[youthinkso]

or

3.people have worked out that 81,3% of pay scales for 5 years plus the £7k and 8% pension it would not be financially viable to move from where they are.

4. in the previous recruitment round to the last would many of the new PPY50 pilots were made full time within a year through a deal struck by the union so expectation by applicants in the last rounds would be too, this didn't happen and likely won't again. So perhaps all the RYR pilots who joined are maybe not so keen to recommend as the previous bunch had been.

or any combination of the above.

As for recruiting non rated pilots, if they do that then the cost is £7k per annum for the first 3 years or £2400 per month for the first 8 months.

then there is the cadet scheme which is the above pay figures reduced to 81.3% oh and they deduct £2400 per month for the duration of the contract, pretty much one of the worse paid cadet schemes there is our there at the moment, there has been no external cadet recruitment for a few years.

but, until there is a shortage of applicants don't expect the terms to improve, supply and demand etc ....... so I guess the path through aviation will be something like RYR>TOM>BA/VS/elsewhere as confirmed by the number of recent joiners who have just left us having not been here long for the likes of full time BA (and that was leaving a 15% pension, never mind a 7% one).

*yes above figures increased by a couple percent in last pay round, I have never made £1300 a month on DR and FDA though !? Perhaps it depends where you are based (756/787 definitely takes home more FDA and DR due to trips).

[oceanhawk]

Lead and you think so.

For the avoidance of doubt, I think the figure of 1300.00 per month
FDA and rig ,
is easily achievable ,on a busy summer month without leave and is a gross figure and accurate when netted back after tax.

[DooblerChina]

For info.

757 Shorthaul only last Summer, average FDA and DR 1300.
767 Winter Longhaul, average FDA & DR 2000.

Many recent 73 joiners worked full time in Winter as they went to Canada and several others (18 months service) have already bid onto 757/767.

[youthinkso]

So if those who went to Canada worked all winter will they now be made full time ? And those pilots senior to them who are ppy50 but didn't go to Canada ?

[Lead]

No. Canada was voluntary, but you can of course bid to go back next winter to get the full time pay.

[Harry palmer]

When if any is this rumoured recruitment to be commenced?

[rjay259]

Assessment days are planned for 27 September to the 2nd October. So who knows when the applications need to be in.

[Boeing 77W]

Going on previous years, I would hazard a guess the application will open in August and close before the end of the month.

[busybee123]

Recruitment opening up this August for circa 60 new FO's including non type-rated.

[Flying Wild]

How does the detachment to Sunwing in the winter work? Does the company provide accommodation? Do you get to come back to the UK during the detachment? Is there much interest/uptake?

[Matey]

Just to confirm busybee's post, this is a quote from an email from Stuart Gruber our DFO...

" We are planning for up to 60 pilots to join Thomson Airways this winter to be ready and on line for summer 2016. This will include external type rated and non-type rated pilots and six internal cadets. Our external recruitment campaigns will be launched in the coming weeks."

Good news that non-type rated pilots are included this time. Note the cadets will, as on previous occasions, be recruited from licence holders within Thomson.
With regard to the Canada detachment, yes accommodation is provided, (and a car I think). It is crewed from volunteers who bid for the detachment. Opportunities to return home are limited I believe, but some take family with them.

[Lead]

Uptake among LHS'ers is low on the canada detachment, presumably due to generally having more family commitments in the UK. There are also some grumbles from them that the package is not attractive enough to make them go. Uptake among the RHS'ers is quite healthy, especially among the PPY part time guys. Going to Canada makes them full time and thus tops up the P60 quite nicely. Not to mention all the lay overs in the caribbean with some of the fantastic CC at Sunwing ;)

[worldoffe]

Sounds great! What experience do they usually require as NTR?

[LoCo Commotion]

I am considering applying back to TOM next month having been surplus back in 2010. Since TOM I've gained 738 command experience which I'm hesitant to give up completely. If Thomson are short of Captain volunteers for Canada would anyone know whether they might consider offering an FO with experience in the left seat a temporary winter command to fill the Canada requirement? I'm guessing the answer is no, but if you don't ask......

[Matey]

Hi Worldoffe. As it is a new departure for recruitment to include NTR I'm afraid there is nothing to pass on with regard to requirements. All will be revealed on the TUI job advert. www.tuijobsuk.co.uk

LOCO...you are right, temporary winter Canada commands are not going to happen. On a more general note, in excess of 20 permanent full time commands have just been announced for next summer, and the retirement profile accelerates over the next few years, ( including me!), leading to a reduction in time to command in TOM.

[DooblerChina]

Direct entry Winter only Canada commands? LOCO you have been away too long, there would be a riot at the mere suggestion!! Lots of command suitable FOs have been waiting a long time for an upgrade and finally we are seeing some decent movement.

Anyway, good luck to those who are applying, this is quite a big intake for us, around an 8% increase in numbers so it can only be a positive sign for our future.

Having said that, I don't think the package on offer is very good anymore so read the figures carefully before making any big decisions.

Good luck

[rjay259]

From the tui jobs site

"Applications will be opening towards the end of August 2015. If you are interested in this role, please set up an email job alert so that you are notified when we are accepting applications."

259😎

[yeoman]

There's been a fair bit of vitriol in some posts here. I guess their authors won't be applying which is good because it means the rest of us won't need to listen to it on some of those very long days out.

For the rest, TOM Ts and Cs have taken a shoeing, no doubt about it. I still however believe that the package is attractive and the long term career prospects equally do. We have pilots 18 months in on the 757/767 and the 787 has gone a lot further down the seniority list than was first expected. Most pilots are now in the base of their choice. I'd guess that next bid round we will have guys on the 787 who've been in the company less than 4 years.

The pension issue is not yet resolved but as is usual with those who get a kick from sitting outside and chucking rocks, the truth is rather more straightforward than the fiction. For sure, the pension for new joiners is on the company's list but there is more than one way to skin a cat. The negotiation team is closing in on a deal that by definition will need to be ready for day one of the selection days because that will be the first question. I'd guess that the overall value of the package won't be vastly different. For those struggling to read between the lines, that's an educated guess.

My long held ambition of widening our net to include non type rated guys is looking very good now. Cadets have been of the highest standard (with one or two exceptions but they are no longer here) and the TOM system of recruiting them from within has widened that particular pool out to negate some of the effects of ability to pay rather than to fly.

In short, not the airline I joined but I don't live in the world that existed back then either. To those who'd like to take it on, you'll fly with a great bunch who'll moan continuously about management in a pretty low key kind of way, then give up and just have a pleasant day out talking waffle mainly, you'll get a pretty good pay package in the overall scheme of things and pretty much everything else is paid for. If it all goes wrong there's a not bad package of loss of Licence and medical etc as well as death in service. Don't forget to tell your mortgage provider about that, it can relieve you of a fair bit of insurance requirements. Crew food is not great and the uniform was made by the lowest bidder but hey ho, someone else is paying there too. The aircraft are all pretty new, sure the 737 is hard going in summer bit has a quieter winter, bad news if your 6'4" like me, the 756s on the Historic Flight are getting a bit elderly but the cabin refresh I'm told makes them pleasant and the 78 if it's your thing is something else.

To those that want to snipe, I'll leave you with two thoughts. A mate of mine had a few wets with me last night. We trained together. He works BA Short Haul and awaits a command. He has just done 5 nights away and Max sectors and is constantly nibbling at 900 hours. Which brings me to my second point. I've had a command 9 years, 3 nights is about max and that's long haul, fairly close to max duty time on individual sectors but lots of time off in between and about 600 hours.

Good luck to all. Those who apply because I think you'll like it, those who knock it, because you'll need it with some if the attitudes shown.

[clvf88]

Yeoman, thank you for the detailed information.

As someone clearly in the know, are you able to confirm if it will still be initially a PPY50 contract as mentioned from previous rounds of recruitment? From reading the posts on here from the naysayers, it sounds slightly less than desirable - are there some mitigating factors, or is it indeed as painted on this thread? Similarly, will the £7k training fee still be required from TR applicants?

[yeoman]

Civ

I've no indication that it will be any different. The pension is still being discussed. Last time the PPY50 situation changed it did so more if less overnight. I think the chances of being in it for 5 years are slim but I'm really am nit in a position to comment on that. Part if the problem is the expectation created after the first batch were made full time inside a year. You need to sign the contract preparing for the worst and doing the full 5 years IMHO, and hope for the best.

If I'm absolutely honest, if I was 17 years back in my career and looking at the options now, TOM and VS would be my aspiration. BA Long Haul at a pinch.

Good luck and ignore the naysayers, in my experience there's usually a story behind it.

[clvf88]

Many thanks again Yeoman, your time is much appreciated. Refreshing to hear some positivity on here for once, especially form a well informed source :ok:

I guess there is no point getting too caught up in this now - the first major hurdle will be to get the nod, at which point all questions will be answered and one can make an informed decision.

[McC]

Despite our occasional differences, I would generally agree with yeoman. I like my job, I fly the B757/767. Historic Aircraft Flight (ahem!). When we bitch about management, it is generally because,
a We have little else to complain about.
b It's what pilots do.
c Not all management ideas are good.
d We don't really like change.
e Many of us very much disagree with enforced PPY50 and charging new pilots for part of their training.
f We want to aggressively defend pension rights.

Been here for 27 years in its various guises. Would I do it again? Yes.

I love flying the 757 and am still a big kid at heart.

My immediate aspiration is that the Co has fewer potential recruits who now have a choice of employer and that it has to improve its offer to attract the right candidates.

To those considering applying, Yeoman is right and good luck.

:ok:

[yeoman]

Awww, Pete. You do love he after all!:p

[yeoman]

MON

Different philosophies and different stages in the ever changing life cycle of an airline for the two operators?

No airline since Icarus has managed to effectively predict the market or the correct establishment of both aircraft and crew to effectively service that market. Both operators have offloaded staff, TOM immediately post merger which was arguably the logical time to "realise synergies" (barf) by removing duplication, TCX when the wheels so very nearly came off altogether. Both are now realising that they overdid it (but the bonuses are safely banked so no harm done) and that markets are recovering so there is a need to re recruit.

I don't know what arrangements exist between TCX BALPA and management but in TOM the original PPY 50 was designed to maintain a summer establishment number to preserve both existing jobs and promotion prospects, such as they were. This put a stop to the company's clear intention to establish to winter numbers and buy in the required additional summer capacity. TOM currently has external capacity in terms of airframes at SND and quasi external capacity at BFS and DUB. Total 3 but I standby to be corrected.

I don't know how much external capacity TCX has with EZY but I did hear some quite big numbers? That's for someone better informed to answer.

Meanwhile, we are increasing the 787 fleet by 4. This is very crew hungry running at up to 12 crews / airframe. That said, it is phenomenally efficient, the pax love it and it is tearing holes out of other operators. I've been on it for 3 months now and gave flown 1 sector that wasn't a full load (1 empty seat). Premium cabin has been full on every one. As TOM charges a fee for standard never mind Premium, it appears people are prepared to pay. We also get c17 hours per airframe out of in a day against the global fleet average of c10/day.

This exaggerates PPY thing in the short term because the additional need for 787 pilots is being wholly sourced from within which has cleared out a lot of 737 seats. These will be recruit filled and the 737 works it's little socks off over the summer and goes very quiet in winter. There is some work in Canada that is the other side of the quasi external source in Ireland mentioned above. Thus is a reciprocal arrangement with TUI group airline Sunwing who have their peak demand in winter, as do our Swedish colleagues TUIFly Nordic. Some of this us bitched by the Germans who are struggling with the concept of cooperation and send pilots to Canada but won't accept any by return.

What that all means is that a reasonable number, 30 odd, PPY guys are technically PPY but because they go to Canada, they earn full time. They are put up in fully furnished apartments, have a car and funded flights out and back for themselves and their families should they so wish. For sure, not ideal if you don't fancy the frozen north or have kids in school or a wife who works and if course you have to go to be paid.

In short, PPY reduced redundancies and avoided demotions totally. It avoids contract or seasonal pilots and promotions. It keeps work in house and can be switched off with a phone call rather than having to run recruitment should the need arise. Once switched off for an individual, it's off. Much maligned, I see it as a shaky start to a relatively great future for anyone joining TOM. Sure, Ts and Cs will slide across the board but at TOM at least you'll be starting further up. You'll also join an airline with full permanent contract rights of access to healthcare, LoL etc. But then I would say that, I'm in the left hand seat of an aircraft that's an airborne orgasm and I've got 10 years to push because I've set my life up to poke off at 60.

I've also spent a considerable amount of said life trying to negotiate a better deal and continue to support that process by being on The CC. So please, spare me the lectures.

[yeoman]

Dear all

Could you please stop PMing me. I appreciate a lot of you are desperate to get a heads up and for a job but a couple of points if I may.

1. I applaud your initiative in trying to get ahead of "the competition" but I believe in a level playing field. It also means the best candidate is the best candidate rather than the one who had all the answers beforehand!

2. It probably won't help anyway as the people who are going to look at you are good at spotting bull****ters. They are pilots and are therefore the Kings (and Queens) of Bull**** Detection.

3. Usual advice applies. Be yourself. If you're an experienced guy, don't tell the people that you're not really that bothered as you've got a job anyway or where you think TOM is a crap airline (and ergo the pilot interviewing you is a numpty for putting up with it). I've seen both. Hmmmm, interesting technique. Hiws it going in Air Kazakhstan anyway?

4. Usual advice for the exciting candidates IMHO, guys going for that first job. You'll find TOM pilots genuinely switched on by this. Keen, bright, eager; all the things this job should be about. Don't sweat it when you're drinking coffee with the astronaut at the start of the day. They'll be looking for the thing in you that fits what they want, not the thing the astronaut thinks they want. Be you. "I don't know but I'm willing to learn" will cut it a lot better than "well in my experience the best way to do it is this, (contrary to the TOM SOPs)"

5. This is not rocket science. Can you work well under pressure, follow simple instructions and assimilate information? Are you the person I want sat next to me on a **** night in Corfu (there are no other types of night in Corfu, other destinations are available) when ATC have lost the plot, CBs are all over the place and the aircraft ahead has just lost all its hydraulics on the runway, blocking it?

6. Past selections have included:

A. A flight planning exercise which will require some thought.

B. A group discussion on a fairly random topic that establishes who makes a lot of noise without saying anything and who says nothing at all. Clue, neither are good options. Can you influence people?

C. A technical test that for those operating a TOM type will probably be type specific to some degree. I've no idea how this would pan out for non TR but use your brain, at a guess, applicable ATPL stuff and Perf A?

D. An event based interview. This is pretty much the only time managers or HR get actively involved but again, a pilot's in there too. Think about the obvious questions, what is the core business - customers. HR will watch all the events, they're experts in body language and Billy Big Time Detection. Do not try and scam these people, you WILL lose. What's the key roll of pilots- working together and problem solving. An event based interview is where you are asked to use your own life examples. 2+2=4. New guys, it doesn't have to be aviation based so don't fret if you've no airline experience. I used to like the non aviation ones because they weren't predictable and were interesting. You want to be noticed by being interesting for the right reasons. BE YOU.

So, that's it. No more PMs please and good luck

[FlatBroke]

Thanks to all those who have taken considerable time to share information about Thomson.


Just a couple of quick questions;


What are the chances of getting based in GLA/EDI if 737 rated?
Do GLA based crews do any Longhaul?
Do the 737 guys do many night stops?


I appreciate that Thomson may not be the place to go for a quick command, but having 25-30 years left it looks like not a bad place to spend them.

[yeoman]

Impossible to say as the base bid throws up oddities every year. Both have been traditionally closed bases IE difficult to get into, EDI only opened last year though. There's been some movement out of late so never say never. NCL is traditionally a less popular base so may be an option if you're tgat side of the country?

No, they don't do long haul but do some mid haul night stops, SSH, SID, BVC, HRG etc. Not sure what the exact status is right now though

Much touted after the bid for Summer 16 is the balancing of bases is now pretty close to what they want IE the number of UK out if base operations should be down. Again, there will be others better able to comment but GLA and EDI are probably towards the lower end for nights away. One or two a month in high summer? Honestly, don't really know.

[Tarisio]

Yeoman

If you describe the 787 as an airborne orgasm you have to expect to be inundated. Sex sells you know. But now I understand why some of the age 60+ part timers are going full time to fly it.

[McC]

The aircraft is very popular but not everyone wants to do long haul. At the moment, it's MAN or LGW basing only for the 787.

I'm GLA based. No long haul except the odd cruise flt in the winter and rostering out of base to cover a very limited line of LH also in the winter. The safe assumption at GLA is 757 flying and SH only as the 787 will do most, if not all the LH flying with the odd single nightstop in Sharm in the summer and two or three nights in the winter.

Very occasionally rostered 767 short haul out of another base.

Poss GLA basing as some FOs taking commands elsewhere. If you want GLA, ask but it's 757 only. EDI.? 737 base, but again, ask if you want it.

McC

[yeoman]

To build in what McC says, it works as follows.

The company will advise you of bases available should you be successful. IIRC you are asked to state your preferences on the recruitment day.

You will then be offered a contract at a base.

On day one on your induction, two things happen. Firstly you get a seniority number. Seniority is allocated by date of joining and the individual course is separated out using numbers from a hat.

The second thing that happens is you are asked to complete a Standing Bid form. Whatever you do, think about this and bid for what you want and what you are prepared to accept. The reason for this is simple; although we run a full formal bid around July for next summer, people retire, resign, die, lose medicals etc and casual vacancies are filled by going down the seniority list until we hit the first bod that has bid for that base / fleet / rank combination. We've had new joiners into their base of choice within months of joining, including very popular bases. We've got people going on the 756 for Summer 16 with very few years behind them.

I've lost count of the number of people who've rung me, fed up because someone junior to them has just got what they wanted. 9/10 it's because "I didn't think it would be available". Slightly fewer are the guys who bid for something and then changed their mind but forgot to change their bid. We've been able to accommodate it usually because someone else lower down wanted it but if they hadn't, you're stuck with it!

Anyway, short of running a full induction course, I reckon that's about it from me. Thank Christ I hear from the naysayers.

To the pub!

[Twiglet1]

Despite our occasional differences, I would generally agree with yeoman. I like my job, I fly the B757/767. Historic Aircraft Flight (ahem!). When we bitch about management, it is generally because,
a We have little else to complain about.
b It's what pilots do.
c Not all management ideas are good.
d We don't really like change.
e Many of us very much disagree with enforced PPY50 and charging new pilots for part of their training.
f We want to aggressively defend pension rights.

:ok:

Maybe add g Not all Crew Council ideas are great also to add a bit of balance
Apart from that a great post.

[McC]

You could add that, or you could lobby, inform, request, suggest, answer CC surveys to ensure that your voice is heard.

My experience suggests that the CC generally listen. Management much less so. Additionally and vitally important is the fact that the CC have far more insight than I do. They have to make a judgement and cannot possibly please everybody.

I also acknowledge that they are all volunteers and it can be a thankless task.

So, for me, item "g" is not required.

[FlatBroke]

Many thanks for the info. Sounds like there is a bit more variety than the LCC offer so will give it a good think.


Cheers

[McC]

There is no perfect job, so don't waste your time looking for it. Every opportunity will involve a compromise. Only you can decide what suits you.

Best of luck.

[busybee123]

Im a recent newbie to Thomson from a 737 operator based in porta-cabins in the UK and have to say am so glad I made the move. Thomson is in a different league to my previous job. Yeah the PPY50 for max 5 yrs (which just to clarify is 83% of full time pay) is a bit crap along with the 7k training cost deducted in the first 12 months as instalments, but to be honest I'm taking home about the same as I did working previously full time, so will be getting alot more once the 7k is paid off and movement onto full time kicks in. I hear FO's on the 78 are taking home just shy of 5k a month. Not surprising really when your away for a few days at a time on £4 ish per hour and£10 per hour sector pay. Also in such little time lots of us have been able to move onto the 75767 this year.

If you love being away on a beach 3 to 4 times a month then bid for the 78. It might take you about 3ish years to get it on seniority but with lots of retirements coming up and more 78's turning up things are starting to move quickly. If you would rather be home nearly every night and have the pick of lots of bases up and down the country then stay on the 73. Theres lots of overtime every month and it's yours if you want it. Recently got paid 2 day off payments £946 for a flight because it went over midnight. Lots of guys getting an extra 1500 to 2000k extra a month gross in summer doing a bit of overtime. On the 7576 you'll fly about 600-700 hours a year. A bit more on the 73. Not sure about the 78. You get private medical insurance for you and your family, (family with a slight taxation) LOL, death in service, cheap flights and holidays for employee and family. Pension still up in the air but hopefully if a bit doubtful 15% from the company and 3.5% own contribution as per previous years. Rosters have extra BALPA rules built in over and above legal CAA minimum.

Very friendly guys to fly with even the oldies due to retire on £2million pension pots from the Britannia days. 2 sector days with an hour's turnaround. Crew food is fairly average. In a nut shell if you've got +30 years left and favour an airline with more variety rather than the rush for an overnight command then I would say an absolute no brainer, especially if you don't want burn-out doing max hours per year, 4 sectors a day, 5 earlies in a row.

Negatives:
-PPY50 initially & 7k training cost
-Pension most likely to be reduced
-737NG, not the nicest of places to spend a long day out
-Having to wear a hat

[Dreamshiner]

The £7k touted .... is that to cover the SOP sim's and the LPC/OPC plus x sectors of line training?

Or is it associated with a change of type?

Are there any plans to have the 787's based anywhere other than LGW and MAN?

[nosmo king]

The 7k is to pay for an OCC essentially, so you would need to be type rated and recent on the 73. If your not TR'd then the training cost is more like 21K.

No plans at the moment to base the 78 elsewhere......this week anyway:eek:

[drag king]

If your not TR'd then the training cost is more like 21K.

Does it mean that NTR/no-jet-timer will be bonded or 21k will be deducted from PPY50 salary?

Sounds frightening already!

DK :eek:

[Dreamshiner]

Well I'm 7576 rated and based already somewhere that TOM already have them.

Regardless of recency, that does seem a tad prohibitive.

[Harry palmer]

Out of interest when should the application system be open to apply?

[Penworth]

Someone mentioned the 5 year pay, and the 5 year pay command suitable, but are there any more increases after that until gaining a command (other than the negotiated cost of living rises)? Does it go up again after 10 years service? Also is the command pay incremental when finally getting a command or is that fixed as well?

As someone who was released by Thomson in the 2010 cull, I'm just trying to calculate exactly how much of a pay hit I would take to go back!

[Boeing 77W]

Someone mentioned the 5 year pay, and the 5 year pay command suitable, but are there any more increases after that until gaining a command (other than the negotiated cost of living rises)? Does it go up again after 10 years service? Also is the command pay incremental when finally getting a command or is that fixed as well?


After the 5 years & command ready there are no further rises until command. Command pay is incremental for the first 10 years in rank and then fixed.

[nosmo king]

Hi DK,

No you are not bonded and yes you do have to pay £21K from your salary (even if you are PPY) however I believe the cost is taken before tax and NI and over a 3 year period. Or you can elect to pay £2400 per month for the first 8 months of service, which comes to £19200.

Once you are in the Company you can bid on to other types and there is no cost or bond associated with a successful bid, although in some circumstances pilots have been frozen on type on joining the Company for 3 years.

The cost of the TR and OCC are not ideal and I believe on the wish list for the union to get rid of.

Regards,

NK

[Boeing 77W]

I believe the cost is taken before tax and NI and over a 3 year period
That's correct, taken before tax. One year for the £7k OCC or three years for the £21k rating.

[Dreamshiner]

Unfortunately based on that I think I'll stay where I am, it's not very attractive prospect to have that hang over you, especially when look at the salary differences.

[twogoodstarts]

The new FO salary scales start nearly halfway up the old ones and end about 10k short of the old ones. Switch over to left seat is now 10 year scales instead of 20. Think it was to prevent more career FO's being on 90k basics

[drag king]

No you are not bonded and yes you do have to pay £21K from your salary (even if you are PPY) however I believe the cost is taken before tax and NI and over a 3 year period. Or you can elect to pay £2400 per month for the first 8 months of service, which comes to £19200.


So for a no-jet-time with over 1500TT, year 1 (and perhaps 2...) is spent on less than 2K/month net, possibly based in LGW? Oh dear...

looking at the "bright" side, it still beats P2F I guess.

DK :rolleyes:

[Harry palmer]

What does the average year one FO take home per month after deductions and the type rating costs? Obviously gets a bit easier at year two and three climbing the scale? Would a new joiner non rated be accepted as an SFO?

[Dreamshiner]

There's enough info already on this page when you combine it with stuff you can find on PPJN

[McBruce]

Year one take home for me was around 3.5-4k in summer, this figure has some overtime, without overtime it will be around 3k. Winters a different beast as no flying so reduce take home by upto a 1k.

Although that being said I got Canada in my first year, uplifted onto full time with back pay with the subsequent bonuses for the detachment, this boosted my take home in year one quite considerably. Year 2 once the OCC costs are off Its more comfortable especially with a bit of overtime. I'm hoping our union makes some inroads with PPY, more in the terms that numbers are limited. A maximum amount of PPYs at anyone time would be nice so it gives movement onto 100% while times are good with recruitment.

Having not done a winter yet on the PPY I probably portrait a more optimistic outlook financially. That being said its a great place to work, all longish sectors so maximum time in the seat gives good days off, it can get quite fatiguing with the variety of times we operate. If you have time on your hands with a long term plan then initially the OCC/PPY are short term pain factors, its a good move with basing up and down the UK.

[McC]

Dreamshiner,

You could apply and see what they offer you. When you are in possession of all the facts about terms, conditions, costs etc, you can make an informed choice to join or not. Circumstances change.

[Dreamshiner]

Ha yes, I'm also big enough to accept I may not be an attractive prospect to TOM so any decision may not be mine to make.

As I covered in the PM I sent you, I have been looked after very well by my current employer and sincerely feel I owe that trust and loyalty to be repaid. It could be argued that if things hit the skids, HR would have no quibbles about jettisoning me to ensure targets/savings are made. However I've been brought up with treat other how you'd like to be treated yourself mantra.

If I did pursue something else it would be more more altruistic reasons than what I clear every month.

[Supersonic2000]

Hello everyone,

Does anybody have an idea if a fighter jet pilot (not British), with a Frozen ATPL (CPL+ATPL Theory+ME/IR+MCC) and close to 2,600 hours, stands even a slim chance of getting hired by Thomson? I am a little bit disappointed (from my applications so far), due to the fact that airlines do not seem to show any respect these days to fighter jet military background, although, according to my humble opinion, we are very trainable and cooperative people. Not to mention that without any "internal" or "underground" connections, an application seems to be a complete waste of time.

I would really appreciate your responses or any recommendations you may have.

[DooblerChina]

Supersonic, we have lots of ex military folk in the company, I don't think your background makes any difference to your application. The recruitment team will be looking for the best candidates whether they were red leader or a Cherokee instructor at the local flying club.

Both candidates would be treated the same when they enter Wigmore towers

[Harry palmer]

Any ideas when the application opens? Ppjn is saying August for September assessments and January starters! Pretty short and rushed window to get guys through and be able to serve notice to current employers etc. With BA looking for a further rumoured 300 plus for 2016 and Jet2 100 plus people required its going to be an interesting winter.

[ShotOne]

Plenty of ex-fighter pilots in Thomson and other UK charter co's, s.sonic but don't expect to have your pathway swept with silk dusters just by that fact. There are many high calibre candidates from various backgrounds who want the same thing you do.

[Supersonic2000]

I think you misinterpreted my words. For sure what I DO NOT expect is a road paved of gold. On the other hand, I am almost confident that I will get a big "Thank you, but No", due to the fact that all companies are looking for 500-1000 hours multi-crew airline experience. If you are not Type Rated with 500 hours on Type or "connected" very well within the company you are applying for, your application becomes automatically invisible. I am just disappointed and i do not expect a special treatment due to my fighter jet backroad. But what I know is this..a pilot who is good at flying a C-172, will be good at flying an F-15 and also good at handling a B777..and without wanting to offend anyone, this modern minimum requirement of 500 hours multi-crew, is completely wrong and insane.

[Cliff Secord]

"But what I know is this..a pilot who is good at flying a C-172, will be good at flying an F-15 and also good at handling a B777..and without wanting to offend anyone, this modern minimum requirement of 500 hours multi-crew, is completely wrong and insane."

Well insane is a bit leftfield. Its not exactly insane if you look at it. They want 500 hours of experience within a multi crew environment.

I think that maybe where you're miss identifying what is valued in the bubble of goods (apart from being cheap and willing. That tops it in today's world). Handling, yes. But modern commercial aviation requires good old CRM amongst a bunch of other stuff that if you study it carefully, single seat fighter ops dont actually give you relevant exposure to.

I don't doubt you're a very competent "handler" of controls being a fighter Pilot. I'm also not not saying you don't have good CRM. You may have fantastic CRM waiting to be used, I don't know you. I've flown with ex fighter guys who equally have good CRM and dire CRM. The same as non fighter guys. It's just your post seems to suggest an assumption that aircraft handling skills are the sole relevance of that particular requirement.

[Juzir]

"But what I know is this..a pilot who is good at flying a C-172, will be good at flying an F-15 and also good at handling a B777..and without wanting to offend anyone, this modern minimum requirement of 500 hours multi-crew, is completely wrong and insane."

Supersonic you seem like a smart fella. But the one thing to understand is that it is a much cheaper and faster from training point of view to take guys with that 500h multi-pilot hours minimum. It's nothing about who is capable and who is not, it's just about supply/demand and saving time and money :hmm:

-J

[Harry palmer]

Any ideas when the application opens?

[Harry palmer]

I love that pub recruitment policy! Any chance it could be introduced, its a winner. ; )

[Mr Angry from Purley]

xollob
Even better and shorter solution is to ask the Reception ladies their thoughts on perspective candidates - any Nigel type reactions will come out when one asks for car keys in exchange for a visitors I.D.
:\

[Alan Fresco]

Hi all,

Having just turned the age of a mid-life crisis, I'm now wanting to be picky about what machine I fly as to avoid thoughts of getting old I keep thinking of my childhood and what flying machines I used to travel on as a kid. One of these is the 757. For those in the know, what are the chances of a non type-rated non-jet skipper getting into Thomson on a 757 at LGW? Is it possible. I'm sorry but the generic soul-less likes of the A-320 doesn't quite do it for me. - or maybe beggars can be choosers etc?

Ta much!

[DooblerChina]

Pretty good actually. You should definitely apply.

[Boeing 77W]

Applications open on Monday.

[Aerofoil]

Considering the numbers involved in terms of the planned recruitment (60+) i would say its both possible and very unlikely at the same time. On day one you pick a number out of a hat for your seniority number. Depending on when you start and what number you pick you may be at the top end or the bottom end of that scale. Either way it will still end you up on a part time contract for 5 years at the moment with the training costs being paid for by yourself (both type rated and non rated in their own respect). Also it has happened in recent times that a clause is used to type freeze new joiners for 3 years so if you join on the 737 it could well be that you are frozen to that type for 3 years before you are eligible for another type through the pilot bid. The only fleet at present where part time does not exist is the 787 which, at the moment, would trigger your full time contract but that would be years down the line for new joiners who join within the next year.

[Pin Head]

Good luck to everyone.

The length of service of some of our guys is testament to the quality of the job especially if you want a good UK based job.

Yes time to command has been an issue but I believe it is all changing as the catch up of the fly to 65 rule, SARS, 2008 credit crisis and most importantly merger is behind us.

I have had a wicked time and flown the 757, 767, 737 and destined for the 787 in a couple of years after career break return where currently enjoying the tastes :) of South East Asia. Done Canada SSV/swg three times and taken two winters off to fly elsewhere. I ve actually had more time out of the TOM than in it but still drawn some sort of salary and pension arrangements all the time. That's the beauty of the job for me, seasonality and the schemes that it brings. Complete your apprentiship and all these will become available to you.

I often keep in touch with mates at Ek and BA who sadly just fly a radar vectored ILS everyday.

Life is about fun and vareity!

[Northern Highflyer]

Is this round of recruitment likely to be open to low hour folks other than internal candidates / Oxford / CTC cadets, or is it for experienced guys only ? With only around 60 jobs versus the mountain of applications they'll receive it's a long shot but I'd like to at least throw my hat into the ring.

[BN2A]

If you're type rated, go for it.

Don't ask, don't get....

:)

[Pin Head]

Xollobb

£60k of debt in the year 2000 so guestimate now with inflation.
£12 k a year as a flying instructor, only getting paid when you could see the south bank at Livepool Airport
First commercial job £21k a year as a turboprop driver
Then moved up the ladder.
Couldnt afford pension contributions at the time.

Yes Disagree with the company training bond but having now been round the houses and seen the world and looked at various different flying avenues, some sort of commitment to a company is required. The market is too good at the minute hence want people to stay.

[pickers]

Hi,

As you are aware we are doing a considerable amount of recruitment this year, in preparation for S16 – we are currently looking for around 60 new pilots as a result of planned retirements, attrition, commands etc.; it’s probably worth noting here that the rumour that we have lost 40+ pilots to BA is not true! This year 9 First Officers have resigned to pursue careers in BA, a lot fewer than the rumour!

Cadet Positions
We have already closed the Internal Cadet Positions and invited all 14 applicants to an Assessment Centre in EMA on the 2nd September. We hope to then select 8 candidates to progress through to the next stage which is a SIM session on the 14th September. Those who pass this will then start with us on November 19th to commence their 737 Type Rating – once they have completed their Ground School they will be based at MAN or LGW; the plan is that we will recruit 6 positions.

737 NG / Classic Type Rated Pilots
This position opens at 0001 on Monday 17th August and closes at 0000 on Sunday 23rd August. These positions are open to 737 300 – 900 Type rated pilots with a minimum of 300 hours on the aircraft, of which 100 must have been in the last 12 months. This 737 TR recruitment is different to previous years as we have included “Classic” pilots for the first time.

757/67 Type Rated Pilots
This position opens at 0001 on Monday 17th August and closes at 0000 on Sunday 23rd August. These positions are open to 757 / 67 Type rated pilots with a minimum of 300 hours on the aircraft, of which 100 must have been in the last 12 months.

Non Type Rated Pilots
This position opens at 0001 on Monday 17th August and closes at 0000 on Sunday 23rd August. These positions are opened to pilots with a minimum of 1500 hours of which 500 must be on a twin turbo propeller aircraft, a military aircraft or a multi-engine jet. This is the first time that we have opened recruitment to non 737 / 757 pilots and so please pass the word around!

The positions will be advertised on the careers site (details below) and also on Twitter and Face Book

Candidates who pass the initial screening will be invited to an AC w/c 27th September when they will go through a morning of exercises that are based on the Pilot Skills List; if they pass the morning they will then be interviewed and then either offered a position or not!

The Assessors include a mix of Pilot Managers, Fleet & Training Managers and 10 Line pilots. This year we will be inviting successful Non Type Rated applicants to do a SIM session if they pass the AC. All positions will then start from early January right through to March time next year.

I appreciate that many of you know pilots who want to apply but can you please not give them my details … nor ask them to send me their CV!

The only way they can apply is via the web site: tuijobsuk.co.uk once the positions have gone live. They will then be screened by the 11 September & then if successful invited to AC; all dates are included in the job details on line.

I hope this is helpful,

Rgds, Kathryn

[papazulu]

Candidates who pass the initial screening will be invited to an AC w/c 27th September when they will go through a morning of exercises that are based on the Pilot Skills List; if they pass the morning they will then be interviewed and then either offered a position or not!

What's an AC? Not one of those cut-e jokes, I hope. For once it would be nice to attend an old-fashioned face-to-face interview.

PZ :bored:

[rjay259]

AC= assessment centre.

[seven3heaven]

Will they still be offering 70% contracts for experienced rated guys?

[rjay259]

I think anyone new to the company will be on a PPY50 contract. For at least five years. But I am open to being corrected.

[tonker]

".This position is a permanent Part Paid Year Contract which means full time working between May and October (peak period) and 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off from October through until May. Salary is spread equally across 12 months and in the first year a payment of £7,000 is deducted across the year for training costs. This working pattern will be in place for a maximum of 5 years after which the option is open to transfer to Full Time Working."

Don't accept this ****. Pilots have always had a mad summer, and then a light winter. They are using this as an excuse or method to yet again dum down out t&cs. And they wonder why even BA find it hard to find experienced crews.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I'm amazed they're offering these daft terms again, especially with the £7000...SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS....deduction from wages to cover "training". I know of several TR people that would apply in a heart beat if the PPY and £7000 costs weren't attached.

Did they learn nothing from the number of experienced TR people that turned down an interview and indeed job offers on such a ludicrous contract last time round. What a pity for what used an aspirational airline.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[papazulu]

I think anyone new to the company will be on a PPY50 contract. For at least five years.

I am sure TOM's hiring board knows best what the real deal is but, according to PPJN, if you sign up as NTR FO (still called a SO?) you get:

SO Base 46411 but all new SO & FO are forced part time for 5 years at 81.3% of pay meaning actual is 37732 not 46411 All new Pilots have to pay 7000 out of salary for first year (3 years for non rated) towards training fees - even if they have the rating already. So above 37732 becomes 30732 after 7000 deduction & salary reduced to 81.3% for forced part time.

Now, that's for a 81.3%! What if it's a PPY50?

50% of 46411 is...ouch...23200-ish/year GROSS and that's before the 7k/year deduction for 3 years. Have I got this right or not? How much on top of that can one expect in terms of sector-pay?

The airline per se seems a great environment but based in LGW with that price-tag...

PZ :ouch:

[oceanhawk]

PPY 50 ( permanent part year ) is the forced part time and reduces the salary down to 81%, no further ,except for the initial 7 K training costs.

[hobnobanyone]

So here comes my question then, obviously the salary is annualised and working over Summer will bring in a heck of a lot more duty and sector pay...

Can anybody give a rough run down on what Sector/Duty pay come out at please?

Basically, if my salary were to be reduced to just over £30000k, how much would be a reasonable amount to budget in for?

Also - as I would be applying for a NTR FO (therefore SO) position, how long would it take to become an FO? Is there an hours requirement or is it depending on how long you've been in the company?

Any help appreciated!

[oceanhawk]

The extras are Duty rig, FDA and flexible working ( over time) if you want to do some and it's available.
Assuming a full months work in the summer ,without leave I recon on about 100 credits of duty rig. This is about £5.60 per credit after tax ( a credit is almost the same as a flying hour [ first officer ]) and about £2.60 after tax per duty hour. ( first officer).
A flexi payment for working on days off is £472.00 per day , gross ( First Officer ). If the duty goes over midnight or starts before 6 am local it will attract two payments provided you are off both days. Over time of course is not guaranteed if you want it and you do not have to do any, it's optional . You can't second guess it either.

From memory a second officer is upgraded to a first officer when you achieve 1500 hours total with so many hours jet, not sure how many.

The above extra s are a significant add on to the basic. One flexi a month would pass the £1000.00 nett mark.
Is it worth it? Well that depends on many things especially where you are coming from. If it's a turbo prop with no previous jet experience , I would say yes. Put up with a lower salary for a year and look at it as your apprentiship. There are other add on s to consider as well.
As for PPy 50, not ideal when you are a young pilot in the industry trying to build hours and pay. However, this type of flying is very tiring and you become nackered quickly. Many at Tom would love to have PPY 50 or another form of part time , but finances won't allow it. So , regard the quiet winter as rehabilitation for the following summer. It may even give you time to look at a second income stream!

[Lead]

Just a thought, doesn't the 7k reduction apply each year for the first three years if they have to give you a type rating? So 21k in total?

That's quite a paycut....

Edit to add that I now see this is confirmed above.... Disgraceful

[vrb03kt]

That's more than once I've read this 'apprenticeship' notion as a reason for accepting this offer - some of us feel we have served this 'apprenticeship' already with thousands of hours on Dash 8s etc and this kind of deal is actually just derisory.

I certainly can't afford to keep taking 3 steps back to try and take 1 step forward. Just my opinion; I won't be applying. Good luck to those who do.

[B737900er]

EXS can't even find rated crew and are trying to recruit from the sandpit. I think the 'pilot shortage*' is upon us due to greedy bean counters.

Good luck all.

*experienced

[youthinkso]

It may even allow you time to look at a second income stream !

Brilliant - so the offer is so crap that pilots have to find a second job to make a sensible income....... Which part of that if any sounds like the offering is acceptable ? :ugh::ugh:

Flexible working (overtime) is very sporadic, for an SO it is £430 a day and FO as oceanhawk said above. In the winter there is next to no overtime so don't work any calculations on that, in the summer it is rife for captains because they don't have enough, but very bit n bobby for FO/SO's.

The rosters are so packed now and days off are not in consecutive blocks anymore (used to be but rostering in their wisdoms now penalise the rostering system for this) that means if you have a day off with a flight either side or a blank on one side, even if the duty they offer you on your days off spans 6am or midnight you still only get 1 flexi for what would/should be a double flexi because the day the other side is not a BDO (base day off), many pilots say thanks but no thanks - why they think penalising blocks of days off together is a good idea is anyone's guess, no pilot thinks its logical and it means the flexible working system can't operate without incurring further roster disruption and excessive cost...go figure, some joined up thinking required somewhere.

I'm full time and looked at going part time because as oceanhawk said the work rate is harsh and rostering is not really fatigue mitigating. Unfortunately in order to merit 75% part time I would need to clear 3 flexi a month as an FO and this is just not achievable on a guaranteed basis, some months there are none.

If you're looking to get a mortgage, certain lenders take the average duty rig & FDA over the 12 months and will allow half of your annual flexi/overtime amount, some don't allow the flexible working/overtime calculation at all.

Regarding how much you make in duty rig and FDA, in the 3 months of the summer so far my payslips show a combined total ranging from £800-£950 per month which roughly breaks down to 25-30% as FDA and 70-75% as Duty Rig per month.

Remember that is an FO rates, SO rates are 25% less (on the duty rig side) !

If you work on zero FDA/Duty rig/overtime in the winter you won't be far off (see much earlier discussion on this by a ppy50 pilot who joined).

Apparently we are recruiting 60 SO/FO - I have no idea why, that is about 15% increase in the current number of FO/SO's and we've been told we haven't lost many to BA (allegedly). Why the big recruitment drive I don't know, I have not seen any comms on fleet increase, so perhaps they are planning on having more of us on standby next summer (which would mean less overtime/flexi opportunities for pilots).

Regarding the £7000 deduction for type rated pilots, rest assured the pilots in the company think this is disgusting also, but the company obviously know best.

The company like recruiting the part paid year pilots (ppy50), full time summer and 50% part time winter as it suits their summer peak requirement, but it also means they know ppy50 pilots need extra money to live in the winter, as a result they will bid for the crappy terms of the winter detachments that are available to try and boost their income, rather than have to negotiate better detachment terms with BALPA, not many of the full time pilots do them as the detachment terms have got worse over time, so rather than improve the detachment terms they offer them to the PPY FO's/SO's - note this doesn't make you full time period, only for that season (according to the company :mad::mad:). The company get handsomely rewarded too by the Canadians for each pilot they send.

This year only about 7 (at latest check) will be offered winter work overseas in Canada - it's all a bit up in the air because of Canadian industrial issues. We currently have just under 60 PPY50 first officers on the seniority list who joined over the last 3 years.

Hope this is useful.

[oceanhawk]

I was referring to it as an 'apprentiship ' over a 12 month period with a 7 K reduction. I think that's worth it! If non type rated is that for 3 years then that's another thing altogether . However, you have to appreciate that you have chosen a career that for the last 20 years , terms and conditions have been subject to constant salmi slicing and is still going on by the bean counters. Things have changed and you are just not going to get what a 65 year old retiring from Tom is going to end up with today.
It's much harder today to get a Boeing or Airbus on your licence coming off a heavy turbo prop. I think you have proved that to yourself with your ' thousands of hours on a Dash 8 etc'
When I joined I had a 10k reduction ( non type rated) ,so it's not a new concept. I also accepted my first turbo prop offer on anything anywhere and my first jet offer too. You can always say no. The proof of the pudding will be with the number of applicants. The ex Ryan guys who joined in the last two years on PPy 50 that I have spoken too have all been very pleased by the move. That's not to say that some (9) have chosen to go to BA .
Tha market is changing in our favour, that's why they have opened up the non type rated route, but it is cyclical and could go easily the other way, it's a gamble.

[Penworth]

I thought if there was winter work available on a Thomson aircraft, then that meant you were entitled to go full time? I guess not from what's been said here, which makes bidding for Canada less appealing.

Regarding flexis, is it still the case that crewing are meant to call FWS volunteers before using someone off standby, or has that little incentive fallen by the wayside?

[rjay259]

Not sure I saw it but the £7k is a one off initial payment.

Not £7k for three years.

[hobnobanyone]

Thanks for your responses guys.

If I look at it for the Long term, then yep, it makes perfect sense and is a no brainer.

However, the short term is a tiny little niggle... If the salary really does come down to £30100ish, then my take home would be basically around £2k over winter. And utilising an assumption from a previous post, then realistically, it would be around £3k over summer. Averaging, say £2.5k over the course of a year?

However... Having long passed 1500 hours (like many in my company - I've got over X000 hours and X years on turboprops), the upgrade to FO would be reliant on the 500 hours jet surely? Which, looking at the figures, I'd guess there's a chance it would come maybe towards the end of the autumn?

This would help financially a lot, and make it a bit more achievable for me. However, the £7k deduction for 3 years isn't going to help much - especially if I'm recruited on a SO contract for a while. I'm on the wrong side of 30 and the missus is dropping the biological time bomb warnings on me!!

Basically, as it stands at the moment, I can see a massive attraction for the long term, and that sways it significantly (And we're talking really long game here - Max salary for a standard line capt at Purpleplace on the jet is around £78k, something I would be unlikely to achieve given the career limiting quality of the Crew Food here) - but for the short term, even with the deductions, if I knew I could achieve a roughly similar pay to where I am now within a reasonable amount of time, it would nullify my niggle.

The FO base I've read is £47165 - 7000 for "NTR training" and it's actually better than where I am now.

Maybe this is where the companies have us by the short and curlies?

I am wondering though, given that the airline are specifically asking for 1500 hours total time, of which 500 has to be jet/prop/military why they are asking for those requirements when the requirements for an FO upgrade are 1500 hours of which 500 is on a jet.

Either way, the first thing is to be successful in getting the nod for a trip to the assessment, of which realistically the chances are slim. Up until that point, all this post is me thinking aloud to myself about "what if" - and hopefully, if anyone has answers to this random ramble, it'll help me and my colleagues in a similar position a lot!!

Back to the beer!

[youthinkso]

hi hobnobanyone.

I will try to answer as many as I can.

£7000 deduction - if you don't need the B737/B756 type rating it is for one year only, if you do need the rating as you would hobnob it is for 3 years.

Salary, if joining as an SO (less than 1500 hours total and less than 500 hours jet time) then salary is £46,411, this is then reduced to 81.3% for the PPY50 contract = £37,732 per annum, then apply deduction above for type rating for 1 or 3 years as required, giving £30,732.

This link is pretty good to see what that is in your hand Income Tax Calculator (http://www.incometaxcalculator.org.uk/) £1957.27 a month (with tax code 1060L) playing around with the calculator to add another £1000 per months in the summer increases the take home to £2680ish per month.

One thing you would need to seek clarity on is how the company upgrade from SO to FO pay scales, if it happens like a light switch or if they apply other criteria like does it have to be after you have done your annual sim check with 500 hours on type, the pay agreements say;

"first officer rate paid once 1500 hours and 500jet hours achieved (on a similar aircraft)"

Which would suggest its as soon as you hit the mark, but the agreements for new pilots also say;
"New pilots will have the opportunity to transfer to full-time employment on completion of 5 years service or availability of winter work, if sooner"

That would suggest that those pilots who did winter work e.g. Canada would have been made full time, but the company's unique interpretation of that clause was that it didn't count because they guys went and worked for sunwing (of which TUI owns 49%) in Canada via Thomson, so it didn't count and they remain PPY50, not full time, so by that argument they could send you to any group airline over winter and it wouldn't qualify to become full time !! So you see my point, it is worth getting in writing exactly what triggers the FO pay scale rather than find out of the company apply some novel interpretation.

If it is purely a jet hours trigger then with the max legal of 100 hours in 28 days (max we may be rostered at present under scheduling agreement is 93 hours in any rolling 28 days) you might just manage to get the 5-600 hours in the summer depending on when they get you online, much of the training seems to overrun into summer season, once online though I'm sure many would be willing to swap a Palma for Sharm el sheik to help you build your hours if there is legally room on your roster :)


It would be frustrating if you just missed the 500 mark before the winter or you could just miss it and then have to go through the winter on your SO pay, though that said when the roster is not up against the legal limits in winter in your 2 weeks on and you're getting 1-3 flight a fortnight I'm sure the full time guys would happily let you have their flights - I know FO's who did this many moons ago to hit the 1500 hours mark to jump to the FO payscales.


The Jump would be from £30,732 to FO pay (£55,435 *.813 minus £7000) = £38069, an extra £7336.66 Gross a year, taking the wage from £1957 to £2415 a month in the winter if you managed to get the FO scale (500 jet hours) before the quieter winter (trigger to be confirmed).

I am wondering though, given that the airline are specifically asking for 1500 hours total time, of which 500 has to be jet/prop/military why they are asking for those requirements when the requirements for an FO upgrade are 1500 hours of which 500 is on a jet.There is a slight variation for each job advert:

non rated : A minimum of 1500 hours of which 500 must be on a twin turbo propeller aircraft, a military aircraft or a multiengine jet

rated:Have a minimum of 300 hours on B737 (300 – 900)• Have a minimum of 100 hours B737 300-900 in 12 months prior to application

I don't know the reason they have dropped to 300 from 500, but perhaps it is a good thing, I know a number of pilots who don't have 500 hours but maybe have 300 from having done a seasons flying on jets (pesky pay to fly schemes or someone who has done a fixed term contract one summer and not made the magic 500 number) so maybe it is opening the doors to them, if it said 500 hours jet then if you are in that situation you have many more options on the market as most add stipulate 500 hours jet, they are also then undercutting jet2 entry requirements

for example Jet 2 Career Search (http://www.jet2careers.com/career-search?id=816475) who by all accounts are struggling to find suitable pilots and have now started doing recruitment out in the middle east to try and lure pilots back.

You mentioned being the wrong side of 30 and the long term game, it is worth bearing in mind that at present time to command with Thomson (talking really long game now) is somewhere in the region of 15 years, so you would be on the FO pay point after 5 years in FO rank and command ready at the salary figure of £69,167, no further increments other than annual pay negotiations until you get your command, circa another 10 years minimum. That of course assumes we stay static, don't expand, there is something going on at the moment called "one aviation" which is all about trying to create one airline amongst all the TUI airlines - BLX in Scandinavia, TOM in UK, arkefly in the Netherlands, Jetair in Belgium - so this could vary time scales.


Then of course there is the pension too, this is advertised as 10% company contribution for you guys, this used to be 15%, the pilots have not agreed to drop this to 10% the company are trying it on and did last year too threatening 7% for new joiners. The workforce went apoplectic and still are seething about this, we don't know what the union is doing about this, but if one portion of employees is on less than the others it is only a matter of time before they try and reduce the other pilots (this is the same strategy they used to reduce final salary pension, initially closed it to new joiners, then continued watering it down).

I don't know what the agreements say if you require a type rating and then leave within the 3 years, I don't think anyone has done it yet as the only non type rated people the company have recruited is the internal cadets in the last year or so.

As you say there are not many routes on to a jet from other aircraft at the moment so it is a bit of a short and curlies situation.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I say again, what a pity for what used to be an employer of choice and a company to aspire towards. Now they're paying £10k less than a Tube Driver salary with a deteriorating pension, 15 years to command and an uncertain future with this 'one aviation thing'....wonderful!

I don't have a dog in this race but it's sad to see this still going on. Where's BALPA in all this, anywhere????

[FR_A]

Could someone tell me in what bases the 787 is based at the moment and where it will be based in the future?

[Beakor]

787s MAN and LGW only. I wouldn't plan on them being based anywhere else in the UK for the foreseeable future.

[vrb03kt]

Youthinkso etc, thank you for taking the time to show the figures so comprehensively. It is very useful to have those guidelines and much appreciated.

I would counter that 2 years ago we were had by the short and curlies. Now, not so much. It's much more of a buyers market. There are several options available to us 'Purpleplace' folk alone for progression from turboprop to jet. BA/Jet2/BACF/Norwegian have all taken a lot of people recently, even Emirates have lowered their application requirements to include turboprops.

As oceanhawk rightly said, we sadly can't expect to retire on the terms of someone retiring from TOM now - my concern is that if we accept these kinds of deals for the 'longer term' carrot being dangled, we then set a precedent for further and further erosion. Especially at a time when the ball seems to be much more in our collective court than it has been for some time. The prevalent thinking in (most) companies unfortunately seems to be to offer the minimum deal they feel they can get away with. If we accept, it endorses it and the slide continues.

I don't mean to steer this entire thread towards the NTR turboprop side of things, but thought it was a discussion worth having.

[hobnobanyone]

Agree, thank you very much for the detailed response. I really appreciate it and it does help to clarify many things - as I strongly suspect, the devil will be in the details as normal. But, I genuinely think information like this provided is really helpful to those of us in the same position.

I've done some sums this morning - and actually, it would take me 6 years to catch up on where I will be here.

This is all based on assumptions:

But in that time, I'll have taken nearly a £20k pay cut for year 1 (haha yeah... right, good start!), and by the time I get to year 6 (when it works out that the salaries catch up), assuming a bit of blag magic maths, in actual fact, purpleplace will have paid me effectively 2 extra years at Thomson FO paypoint 1 - (the difference is £77k in favour of the current place).

And given that in that period of time, I'll be hopefully settled down with a family - I have a sneaky feeling that on these terms and conditions, it might be a no-go for me. Unless of course things change - as I said earlier, the devil is very much in the details - and this might not be anywhere near the final offer, but as it stands, that's what I've worked out.

Really sorry to hijack this thread with Turboprop comments too - I think vbr03 has got it right. Whereas even 2 years ago, it was a case of getting a jet job in whatever way possible - in fact, the market is changing and airlines are starting to look at us again. And not before time thankfully.

:ok:

[drag king]

You mentioned being the wrong side of 30 and the long term game,

Though I should give all a bit of a laugh...what if someone is on the "middle" side of his...ehm...FORTIES*? :\

Needless to say one needs the nod for the AC and a job offer first, of course.


DK :{

* Still no attachments, kinda giving up on having a (human) life or living at "home"...

[youthinkso]

I agree, even something as simple as the 7k becoming a training bond over 3 years instead of an actual monetary deduction would make a significant difference, you know...like the old days :-)


I wish you well, I smell the pilot shortage coming and the end of driving pilots terms lower but instead the other way around....about time.

[oceanhawk]

If I were a turbo prop FO today looking for a career advancement on to big jets, then I would certainly apply to Thomson and go and see what they have to say. I think you have to look at it in the medium term, not the sort term and look at the deal with a broad brush. You can always say no to an offer if you feel you are being short changed. Moreover, if after 3 years say with 1000 hrs + on the Boeing you can always leave. The 738 is very useful time to have.
The 787 is only based at Manchester and Gatwick and that does nt look like it's going to change.

That's all folks!'

[youthinkso]

but if someone applied thinking they couldn't take the current offer and then it improved due to lack of interest then they are precluded from re-applying in 12 months.

Getting on a jet is good, but not if it means you cant pay your bills and push yourself into financial hardship.

As the chaps/chapesses have said, it would seem the industry is slowly waking up and having to change its' ways - a refreshing change, just that Thomson is a bit behind in the process.

At the current rate of desperation and airlines trying to get pilots it wont be long before the old days of a golden handshake cash payment to join a company re-emerge - maybe 5-10 years ? (I certainly hope so).

After all how are the directors of TUI to make their millions in bonuses if there is no one to fly their customers on holiday !

I full welcome the changes in the right direction for a change.

[hobnobanyone]

A training bond would massively help - suddenly this would become a massively attractive offer.

I'm still going to apply - things change, and I can't see myself doing split duties, minimum rest, lates to earlies in the course of 1 week and 4 sectors on a 5/2 pattern, all year round forever.

Thanks for your help and pointers guys, I'll leave this thread alone now in favour of another 4 sector late!

[seven3heaven]

They certainly won't get experienced rated guys with these terms. Every airline I know at the moment is struggling to get suitable guys in the seat. I wonder how long it will take for the penny to drop. The airlines have to seriously up their games. The ball is now firmly in the court of the pilot

[Chesty Morgan]

Where's BALPA in all this, anywhere????

Heathrow..

[Jwscud]

I would take any numbers off to BA with a big pinch of salt. Maybe 9 are working their notice, but how many are in the hold pool waiting for a start date to give their notice? How many still working through the selection? I know that's the case at my outfit (not Thomson.)

I would be interested in this if BA doesn't work out for me, except for the awful contracts on offer which means it makes better financial sense to stay where I am.

[hawker_hunter]

Am I right thinking that if I have over 1500hrs on a Q400 but no jet time I would be recruited as a SO?

[Aerofoil]

Hawker-Hunter

Thats correct according to the MOA. Until you have 1500hrs total with 500 on a jet of a similar size you will be a second officer and therefore on second officer pay. Also assuming you are not type rated you would have your salary reduced by £7,000 a year for 3 years to pay for the rating, so £21,000 for a 737 rating. As far as i can work out the salary would be around £30,500 when you deduct the £7,000 and consider the PPY50 contract. Someone please correct me if i have got this wrong though!

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

I've done some sums this morning - and actually, it would take me 6 years to catch up on where I will be here.

This is all based on assumptions:

But in that time, I'll have taken nearly a £20k pay cut for year 1 (haha yeah... right, good start!), and by the time I get to year 6 (when it works out that the salaries catch up),

:ok:

What about after year 7? Year 10? Year 20? My guess you're total career earnings would be a lot more at TOM.
Plus you could be earning c£10k a year in allowances (FDA and duty rig). With day off payments on top of that. (Flexis)
Sometimes you've got to take one step back to take two steps forwards.

[tunalic2]

Thanks for all the info folks.
I hit all the criteria regards 757, I even find the 2 weeks off over winter appealing, but it's a long .......migration to the left and having been there on previous type I miss it, especially the money.
As for the £7000 training thing, that's just taking the p***.

Good luck.