Thomson recruitment.

[vrb03kt]

Do any of the regional basing options include NWI? Thanks

No. Operated by Sunwing.

[zero/zero]

The people I know in TUI/Thomson all say that it’s a great crowd to work with, and arguably it has been up there with BA/VS as a career until recently.

I have been tempted in the past, but as a TR applicant I just object to paying £7k for an OCC. Have never had a problem with bonds etc for TR’s, but I refuse in principle to pay that for the minimal training required. Also, being married with kids I don’t want to risk the possibility of spending winters in the Nordic countries away from the family.

It seems obvious that management are determined to drive the airline side towards low-cost Ts&Cs. I really hope that the union guys can hold that off, but think that for new joiners there’s a real risk that you’ll wait 10yrs+ for a command in an airline that is by then a LoCo along the lines of EZ/J2.

Just my rambling thoughts.

[olster]

And another thing... as we were referring to the good operational people @ Thomson which is indeed true. I left as a trainer and in terms of the office staff that I had direct dealings with, absolutely superb. Long standing Britannia employees, very good at their jobs, polite, friendly and always helpful. Many culled due longevity and ergo, expensive. Thomson, in terms of the pilots are trading on the industry reputation which was hard won on the basis of the fabled (but real) partnership between the company and the pilot group. That was when the flight ops managers were gentlemen and had integrity. Be careful what you wish for.

[RAFAT]

Just my rambling thoughts.



But nonetheless valid, I agree with your points.

[lssp]

Does anyone know if you want a Nordic base, if it's possible to live there all year? Or be based there permanently.

Thanks

[recall_checked]

Does anyone know if you want a Nordic base, if it's possible to live there all year? Or be based there permanently.

Thanks

Perm base - no. You could take a winter base and commute in the summer. I imagine commuting in the summer will only be possible on the 787 because of the block of days off after each trip. 75/6 will be too busy in the summer to commute, although some people manage.

[bex88]

Having been TCX not TUI mind, I can say charter is a great lifestyle and job. If you are close to a LCC command, personally I think you would be bonkers to join the long queue there. Just my two pence worth but I guess it depends on what you value most, your age and career aspirations. Good luck I know people in both scenarios and both are very happy

[Boeing 7E7]

Hi.

Any threads or info regarding the assessment with TUI (UK - East Mids)?

Considering leaving my 737 LCC to join. I'm an FO about 1 year away from command currently, any advice from anyone who took the leap from a similar position?

I've heard rumours from ex-colleagues that they didn't receive the expected xmas bonus & management are trying to cut pay 20(?)%

Cheers :)

I suspect one reason that there been few if any responses forthcoming is that people aren’t sure anymore! Thomson/TUI used to be regarded as a career airline and very good one at that -arguably the only real improvement would be to move to BA, and even then not many people did.

But things have changed dramatically over the recent past. The senior management team in TUI are emulating Ryanair in their approach to flight ops and pilots and doing all they can to reduce the terms and conditions, which once made TUI the airline of choice. The management are trying as best they can to more closely align our T&Cs with LCC around Europe. While the pilots through their BALPA representatives are trying their best to resist this onslaught, it is difficult to say anymore whether leaving your airline to come here would be a good move. If management get their way and impose the massive and significant reduction to our T&Cs, then I suspect the over whelming opinion would be not to join. In effect you would be leaving an airline with a short time to command to join one with a much longer time. TUI is not a happy place at present!

[Club World]

Has anybody any recent experience of the selection process.

[nightfright]

What a fantastic group where short sightedness will do nothing but leave it in shambles

Probably scared ****less of Jet2 pushing their boundaries - hence hedging to remain ahead of competition by reducing the biggest cost -salaries/T&C,s

Caveat Emptor

[hec7or]

1-2: Off
3: Late eve DLM (land on the 4th)
4: Late eve PMI (Land on the 5th)
5: Rest
6-8: Off
8: Blank day
9: Mid morn FUE
10: Early Morn KOS
11: Off
12: Early morn PUY
13: Early morn PMI
14-15: Off

FWIW, when I was at Thomson, they gave me a duty on every single rostered blank day, at short notice, no block window protection and no Flexi.

not impressed

[Boeing 7E7]

FWIW, when I was at Thomson, they gave me a duty on every single rostered blank day, at short notice, no block window protection and no Flexi.

not impressed

To be honest, you must have been at Thomson quite a while ago as block window protection has been one of the good things about the roster for many years. But this is the sort of thing the company wish to change.

[nosmo king]

As far as I know it’s always been the case that on blank days you can be asked to work but don’t have to (the only caveat to this is that when operating operating away from your home base, when asked to you have no choice). As you say it does not attract flexi (day off payment) so nobody (I know) does it and I can’t remember the last time Crewing asked so at home base these blanks are effectively just more days off.

[DooblerChina]

As far as I know it’s always been the case that on blank days you can be asked to work but don’t have to (the only caveat to this is that when operating operating away from your home base, when asked to you have no choice). As you say it does not attract flexi (day off payment) so nobody (I know) does it and I can’t remember the last time Crewing asked so at home base these are effectively just more days off.

Totally agree, never worked a blank day.

[DooblerChina]

FWIW

May 75/6 roster

3 off
5 on
5 off
1 on
6 off
5 on
3 off
3 on

3 nights away and one extended duty in there too. I’d expect to be slightly busier july-september. So 17 days off will probably reduce by a couple.

Would I join again? depends on union/company talks, I’d expect with expansion plans next Summer, not much will change but who knows. I wouldn’t leave a LCC with a command imminent though as we are still 10 years plus for LHS.

[theflyingbus]

Morning haven’t posted for years, but for info.
Current command review board will be looking at joiners from 2013/14
Recruitment for lower experience will open in the next couple of weeks, north of 100 needed on top of the 30 or so in the current recruitment.
As a 737 trainer I have met many new joiners over the last years and very few regret their decision. I’m not going to say what anyone should or shouldn’t do, but generally there is always two sides to a story from the miserable posts. The current climate with management has definitely changed due poor communication mainly, but personally I’m not worried.
Oh and it’s not a Xmas bonus, it’s a end of company tax year bonus, which just so happens to be paid in December. Yes it was a joke that it wasn’t paid in it’s two forms-but BIG BALPA are on to it

Apply, go through selection and then make your own mind up if given the opportunity.

I look forward to meeting many of you in the future

[theflyingbus]

As I’m sure you know five minutes is a long time in aviation, so there is a chance much of the above has already changed!

[Paddingtonbear]

Does anybody know if there are any alternatives to the forced winter Scandinavian detachment? PYW for example?

This very factor is deterring me from booking an assessment at the moment.

[G1991]

Does anybody know if there are any alternatives to the forced winter Scandinavian detachment? PYW for example?

This very factor is deterring me from booking an assessment at the moment.

The company aren't currently offering summer only contracts, everyone joins full time and can bid for part time working the day they join.

The have been a number of 757 rated pilots in the last 12 months who have joined straight onto a UK only contract. If you join and are indeed sent to Scandinavia in the winter (the work/trips on the 767 are quite good if you're willing to do some long haul), you can bid for a UK only base. With the expansion I wouldn't imagine you would have to do more than one winter over there, if that...

As theflyingbus says, not many people come here and regret it. I'm not worried about what's going to happen - I hope (and dare I say confident) there won't be any cuts and maybe positives to come. It's a great place to work and whatever those who experienced the 70/80s say, it's still one of the best career airlines in the UK. If you're close to command at an LCC and the left seat is important to you, don't bother. If you're after better options of lifestyle (long haul, short haul, lots of bases, part time, RTW trips, detachments etc.) and willing to wait to move seats then apply and see what they have to offer you - can always say no! It's a long time to command because very few people leave and I can't see that changing, however this is falling drastically with expansion happening.

Good luck.

[Paddingtonbear]

G1991 many thanks for taking the time to reply and shedding some reality on how things are at the moment. Like you say, it's probably worth taking taking the 'pain' for 1 year to feel the gain long term.

I have heard that a former (before my time) colleague went to TOM 18 months ago and has grossed £104k this last year. Obviously in an FO position.

I am indeed closing in on Command in my current outfit, but I fully appreciate the fact that a command is not the be all and end all....

[Paddingtonbear]

G1991

Many thanks for the reply. Certainly some food for thought in there.

All the best.

[G1991]

G1991 many thanks for taking the time to reply and shedding some reality on how things are at the moment. Like you say, it's probably worth taking taking the 'pain' for 1 year to feel the gain long term.

I have heard that a former (before my time) colleague went to TOM 18 months ago and has grossed £104k this last year. Obviously in an FO position.

I am indeed closing in on Command in my current outfit, but I fully appreciate the fact that a command is not the be all and end all....

If you enthusiasticly partake in the Flexible Working System then you can easily break the six figure mark Y1, why you’d want to with Hammond sniffing around I’m not sure, but you can always offset it into your pension etc. We used to be able to offset a certain amount into company shares but that was a U.K. benefit and now we’re ‘Global TUI’ we take part in their post tax (albeit it not too dissimilar) scheme.

Good luck with your application.

[DooblerChina]

100k is possible on the 75 fleet but unlikely, that person would be looking at selling 50 days a year back, which would mean working most of their leave days. More realistic is to expect a couple of flexi’s (day off payments) a month putting there pay into the 90s.

[Boeing 7E7]

100k is possible on the 75 fleet but unlikely, that person would be looking at selling 50 days a year back, which would mean working most of their leave days. More realistic is to expect a couple of flexi’s (day off payments) a month putting there pay into the 90s.

I would reiterate that doing a large number of ‘Flexi’ payments is theoretically possible, but it is highly unlikely. The 6 months from May through October are busy and expecting to do a couple a month during that time would be reasonable. And that’s about 12. Which works out around £5000 extra.

Those who suggest FOs will earn significantly more than this are either being disengenous or are promoting an expectation based upon the experience of an almost nonexistent few.

[vrb03kt]

I agree - don't come expecting to earn over 100k. I would say earning that in year 1 is not impossible but rare. You'd have to do a lot of flexis, even more when you consider that everyone has 7k deducted from their gross salary in year 1 for training.. and probably not on the 737 either due seasonality.

[recall_checked]

For what it’s worth, I’ve grossed £85k as a year 2 FO and received 11 day off payments, but that doesn’t mean I worked 11 of my off days, some duties are worth up to 3 day off payments for 1 day off. I’ve turned down a lot of flexi out of shear laziness and could have grossed an extra 5k easily. So £10k+ on flexi alone is certainly possible.

I saw my buddies payslip last week, he’ll hit 95k as a year 3 FO on short haul. Long haul FOs will earn more.

[Roidelstein]

FWIW

I would agree £90-£100k possible as a F/O, but having done both SH and LH, my experience now is that pay is higher doing SH. I think it used to be the other way around but the advent of duty rig changed that. And def more Flexi available on SH.

[Ich Bin Solo]

Afternoon Gents,

I've got my assessment day this month, can anyone help me with a few questions?

-Firstly, any hints or tips for the day? anything in particular the company is looking out for would be great.

-What are the chances on getting straight onto something that isn't the 737? (I'm completely happy with Scandi basing for a few winters)

-The figures stated above for the gross salary for a new FO (circa 85k), are they after the 7k training cost reduction? and I appreciate everyone's different but how does that work out as a net salary? I know I could put it into a calculator, but every airline seems to have it's own approach to how things like sector pay end up being paid (gross/net/combination).

Any other information you think would be good to know would be great too!

Thanks in advance!

[recall_checked]

Really they're just looking for a capable, honest and personable pilot. Somebody easy to sit next to on a 13 hour duty. Plenty of info in this thread.

Historically, people have been assigned the fleet they are already type rated on, but it isn't a rule by any means. It all depends where the shortfall is I guess. But with the 787 and 757 going down to less than a years seniority, you could probably bid off the 737 quickly enough assuming nothing changes. Again, it all depends on what seats they fill up in this recruitment round and where there is space. I'm not somebody who is in the know, these are just my observations.

The 85k is without deduction. The pay scales on PPJN are accurate, there is a decent pay rise at the year 5 FO mark so I reckon 100k+ is possible from year 5.

In terms of take home pay, without working any days off, 4.5-5k is my average. With day off payments your net pay can go through the roof. But I wouldn't count on flexi being available every month. There is a small combination of how duty pay is taxed but I wouldn't worry about it. When I was paying back the 7k OCC costs I usually netted 4.1-4.3k unless flexi was involved.

[Ich Bin Solo]

Great response, cheers.

[SeaBreeze1]

I recently joined the company at the beginning of the year from FR and if there's anybody out there thinking about making the jump then I can highly recommend it! From the off, the company are trying to cut costs (who isn't?) and it remains to be seen what path they try to take. My decision was largely a lifestyle choice - I was offered command shortly before I handed my notice in but there's no way i'm moving to Romania on crap pay without any idea of when I could get home.

The flying here is great - there's nothing like flying to ALC and back and being back home by midday. I could fly with the best crew on the planet at FR but the flying was soul destroying - 4 and 6 sector days, max duty with min rest in between.

The training has been excellent. It's a VERY short OCC - 4 days GS, 4 days sim, 3 days LT - and the procs are very different to FR. We only have about a third of the callouts that FR do so the hard bit's forgetting the stuff from before!

Basing is very transparent and based on seniority. I was based far away from home initially but already have a base move confirmed 2 months after joining. You can input your bid from day one and the bid is run a couple times a year or as required.

There's the opportunity to fly in Canada and to fly different fleets and we've now got the opportunity to bid for mix fleet 737 & 787 flying (remember you'll be type frozen for the first 12 months but this can be waived for operational requirements).

Even with the 7k type deduction in year 1, I've already taken a pay rise compared to my pay as a TRI with FR. The training cost isn't great, it is what it is and I now see it as a 7k pay rise in year 2. The perks are excellent in comparison (I was a contractor with FR) and I can finally sleep well at night knowing i'm not on a :mad: tax-dodging contract, i'll get paid if I call in sick, hotels and transported are booked and paid for if I get sent away and I have a pension!

Just my opinion and experience so far, just though it may help if others are thinking of making the move. Good luck with the assessments!

[Black Pudding]

I was made redundant from Thomson back in 2010 along with others. Had that never happened, I would have still been there now and never planned to leave. Great company, or it was back then. Great crew and training top notch. I can not recommend Thomson TUI anymore than it's an ideal place to aim for. Time to command is a long long time. There is a reason for that, very few leave.

[recall_checked]

To be fair command is expected to come down to the 2014/2015 joiners for the S19 bid. Bit of expansion going on now.

Worth remembering there was a big gap in recruitment for 5 odd years, so now all the guys with 10 years seniority are getting their commands the only people left for commands now sit at the 5-4 year mark.

[Jack the rabbit]

Has the recruitment window shut? No sign on the tui recruitment search.

[plikee]

Has the recruitment window shut? No sign on the tui recruitment search.

Closed 6th April.

[G1991]

Looks like TUI could be opening up for low hour pilots in the next few days. Personally, I think it will be the best opportunity available to non-ZFT pilots in the U.K. (Should they offer the contract currently on offer...)

[Ich Bin Solo]

It's not a decision maker, but can anyone give an idea on the staff travel process at TUI? e.g. What's it like on own-brand flights?, are they any agreements with other operators e.g. ZED tickets?

Cheers

[recall_checked]

Standby tickets are available with ourselves and all major airlines. Unfortunately, it's done by emailing a scanned copy of a form to our staff travel department who then issue you with a ticket (it used to be a paper ticket in the post up until a couple of months ago!). ID90/other electronic means of booking standby tickets is apparently coming. But it's been "coming soon" for 10+ years. I think it's now actively being looked into. After 1 year service we are given online access to BA staff travel (it's available from date of joining but via the form described above until you get online login). This can only be used to book standby tickets.

Confirmed seats AKA "late seats" are also available but are only confirmed 3 days in advance. Generally, you'd give staff travel a few destinations in order of preference and they work down the list. Nice for spontaneous last minute trips or taking the other half on a week trip to Costa Rica. Standby and late seats are very cheap.

Being a 'holiday airline' we are issued with concessions every year to be used towards a package holiday. The amount depends on years of service. I think year 1 is £500 or £750 and is capped at something like £1750 a year. Don't quote me on the numbers. These are confirmed seats/airport transfer/hotel rooms etc, can be booked well in advance and are great for taking the family away.

[Boeing 7E7]

Interline on BA is ID 80. Roughly speaking, when all taxes and charges are added to the final price, it works out at about a 50% discount on an equivalent firm ticket with the airline.

£1750 is the max amount of concession available and had not changed in 20(?) years. The cost of holidays in the meantime has roughly doubled. Sadly you are not able to use the maximum amount of concessions on an increasing amount of hotels in the group (platinum, small and friendly etc) so, like with a number of other things, it is a diminishing benefit.

[donogca]

Evening, are there many of you still waiting for an assessment date after being offered the temporary hold pool? Cheers

[22052014]

Evening, are there many of you still waiting for an assessment date after being offered the temporary hold pool? Cheers


hey buddy,

holding pool as well since 9th April.

anybody else been called out of the pool ?
anyone knows how long is the waiting ?

[McBruce]

Most likely movement will happen once our internal bid results are published, this will show where the recruitment is needed. I suspect this will concluded by the end of May.

[donogca]

Cheers, fingers crossed!

[recall_checked]

Applications open for military pilots, low hour CPL holders and 'no airline experience' pilots. All non type rated. Closes this Sunday.

https://tuijobsuk.co.uk/view-jobs.php?area%5B%5D=Pilots&location_alt%5B%5D=&keywords=&search_source=13027&search_page=search%2Fairline-jobs%2F&results=Search (https://tuijobsuk.co.uk/view-jobs.php?area%5B%5D=Pilots&location_alt%5B%5D=&keywords=&sea rch_source=13027&search_page=search%2Fairline-jobs%2F&results=Search)

[22052014]

Applications open for military pilots, low hour CPL holders and 'no airline experience' pilots. All non type rated. Closes this Sunday.

https://tuijobsuk.co.uk/view-jobs.php?area%5B%5D=Pilots&location_alt%5B%5D=&keywords=&search_source=13027&search_page=search%2Fairline-jobs%2F&results=Search

how this will affect people in the pool ? :confused:
does it means there will be possibility first for
the ones swimming in the holding pool and
afterwards low hours ?

anyways Best of luck to everybody applying ! :)

[recall_checked]

Answer is: No idea. But official comms say approximately 100 pilots needed so plenty of space for the best people. I assume they'll probably want a mix of all the backgrounds, but who knows? (not me).

[Jack the rabbit]

With the permanent uk basing and temporary Nordic is there a chance you could be stuck on this for a few years? one season would be hard on my partner but not insurmountable. More than a season it would be a no go. Am I right in thinking it’s pot luck surprise if that’s what you’re offered?

I understood Tui to have a long time to command of 10 plus years but there’s mention of year 5 FOs being in line. I take it that’ll be temporary with expansion and expect the command time to return to the 10 plus year point?

[Jack the rabbit]

Jack the Rabbit - RE 757/767 fleet the nordic stuff is just positioning out there to fly on long haul trips. You won't have 5 on 2 off for 6 months. 7 days away 5 days in England is a good example. Apparently if you use just over half of your leave during NOV-APR and use the chosen day off system you might only do 1 or 2 trips a month. I don't know anyone on the 787 nordic, but I don't imagine anyone will get 78 unless rated. My buddy says they are super short on 73, that's where I'd set your expectations (don't know if they have a nordic thing for 737). Good luck

Thanks Clam chowder for the info. I got the impression from the vacancy that you’ll be based in the Nordics for the period with local accommodation rather than being offered to position out for trips? It’s the having to be based out there that’s causing doubt. My main concern was whether you’d be stuck on this for a few winters.

Is the shorter time to command people mention a blip and most likely to plan on 10 plus years?

[recall_checked]

Nordic basing isn’t happening this winter, so you’ll be U.K. based regardless of if you’re given a dual base or not. It might be scrapped permanently if this winter goes well without using the dual base.

Command is rumoured to have come down to and including all 2014 joiners. Still awaiting bid results, however.

737 doesn’t do any Nordic work. All 73 UK bases were generally fairly easy to get into up until recently. LGW is overcrewed as it stands, but all subject to change pending the bid results.

[yeoman]

Rosters are crap. You will find yourself on endless bullets usually with some positioning thrown in, all planned by people who’d not be trusted with a TV remotein any sensible world.

Typical bit bit of stupidity:
Day 1 position Your Base to NCL, preferably by the most circuitous route and don’t forget to plan it during the rush hour to save 38p on allowances. Check in to cheapest hotel possible but remember to spend at least 30 mins of your already traffic reduced rest ringing the Hotac department (who will have gone home) to get them to book you in.

Day 2 operate NCL-BGI. Be prepared to tear your hair out doing all the jobs other people are paid to do as everything will have been contracted to the lowest bidder. Upside, you will have a great day out with a great crew once the doors are shut although you can expect at least one disruptive pax who is pissed up and getting arsey because they think £200 all in on the lash entitles them to an in board Presidential Suite. You can also expect some genuinely aggrieved pax who’ve booked and paid for Premium but been bumped and are now spread out all over Economy.

On arrival stand in the blazing heat in a uniform made by the lowest bidder while you wait for the transport. Amuse yourself watching VS and BA crew waltz past straight on to big buses to their decent hotel. Eventually board two cramped and smelly minibuses of unknown Chinese origin. On arrival at hotel, wait minimum 1 hour for rooms as hotel will be hot bedding despite their denials and the contract specifically stating it’s not allowed and the Hotac manager saying he’s spoken to the hotel about it.

Meet up in bar and bitch about everything. Don’t forget to slag BALPA off but then not bother emailing anyone official about it. Coordinate travel with A N Other crew who will be positioning with you tomorrow, ring Crewing to ask why the two crews are rostered 90 minutes apart even though they go on the same aircraft tomorrow and get told to go with what’s on your roster. Attempt sleep to the dulcet tones of reggae from the bar which does at least drown out the noise of the aircon that is expending so much energy making a noise it has none left to cool air.

Day 3. Ring transport to find out why it hasn’t turned up as booked by you personally just 16 hours ago. Get to airport and wait 90 minutes for the other crew who are on the same aircraft but with a different rostered departure time. Upside, you’re in the private jet terminal so rape the bar. Banter with the crew who will look a $million while you look like a sack of **** tied up with baling twine, Flight Deck Fashion, it’s for winners.

Board private aircraft raft which will hopefully be a Saab 340 and not the dreaded Wetdream Jetstream. If the latter you will be tech stopping. Upside, the local crews know us all and are top people who do the best to make the journey pleasant. Assist at least two of your crew off the aircraft at the other end as a result of the local hospitality.

Arrive in MBJ. Transport and Hotac as last night.

Day 4. Operate back to U.K., own base if lucky. Flight back is a repeat of flight out.

Day 5. Position back to base late afternoon after arriving around 0600 and getting to the hotel for a day stop.

3 days off, rinse and repeat. Other combinations are available.

LGW get better trips than MAN although IMHO MAN pax are easier going. BHX is a small base so getting in there unlikely as lots of senior guys.

Trips are rostered through Carmen with a small seniority loading. Top Tip, bid for what you DON’T want as that’s the last thing you’ll get. It’s crap.

Bring sense of humour, you’ll need it.

TUI is pretty much 100% Boeing NPs etc.

If it wasn’t for some great people to work with once you’re free of The Landside Idiots I’d have shot myself long ago. They make life good but if you’re expecting any kind of support or respect from beyond the crew level, you’ve made a mistake. Upside, my Pilot Manager has been brilliant with a number of pastoral care needs I’ve had which is probably why they’ve not been promoted.

[double-oscar]

I think Yeoman must have got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. Although things like that do happen its not always the way. With rostering anything can happen. Some people claim to use Carmen with some success, I personally believe it seems to work against you. In the summer at LGW and MAN you can expect a mixture of long and short haul. Almost all of the long haul trips are bullets or involve some positioning. LGW tends to get the majority of the longer trips available. BHX does not have any short-haul at the moment but the long haul trips are almost all bullets. BHX is full for Captains but seems a little short of FOs. In the winter there is no short haul. No one is entirely sure how the Nordic program will operate this winter but it will probably be covered from all bases.
Hopefully all the industrial relations issues will be sorted by the time you join. I hope you enjoy your time here and have no regrets in joining.

[hec7or]

Rosters are crap.

That's why I left, spent too much time in taxis going nowhere on the M1, M6, M25 etc.

[EPRman]

yeoman,

Long haul was like that on the 767. You must have known once the novelty of the 787 had worn off it would be the same old. Should've done the sensible thing and stayed on the queen of the skies!

Pretty strong stuff too from someone in your position. Hope the rest of them feel the same. We might get somewhere then.

Regards.

[DooblerChina]

It’s not quite that bad. After 13 years I can count on one hand the number of times a hotel hasn’t been booked.

Rosters are crap? well yeah they are but what does anyone expect when flying a full long haul roster? week orlando’s twice a month?

Crap hotels? well a few but most are OK. I personally hated the holiday hotels in Dominican and Jamaica but some are excellent, LIR/MRU springs to mind, I quite like the CUN hotel as well.

i have to to say I don’t see the appeal of long haul anymore, back on short haul and life’s great again... I’m currently sitting in the beer garden in the middle of 5 days off looking for ward to my weekend in the back garden, that’s the life for me!!

[Jack the rabbit]

Hi Yeoman

I read this thread from the start and noticed a couple of years back you posted different sentiments. Has working there changed in the last couple of years (Thom to Tui) or have you just got wracked off with it? Genuine question in case it reads as sarky (it’s not meant if it does). What you describe does sound quite full on for one trip.

Thanks.

[Cuillin Hills]

You can also expect some genuinely aggrieved pax who’ve booked and paid for Premium but been bumped and are now spread out all over Economy.




I had to smile at this comment by Yeoman - this is exactly what Thomson did to us a few years ago when travelling to Cancun.

Due to a configuration change they tried to tell us we were now in Economy and not sitting next to each other for 11 hours. Prolonged “discussion” at check-in eventually gave us a row of four economy seats for the two of us despite paying for the Premium legroom seats at the front.

Not a good start to the holiday - haven’t been back to Thomson/Tui.

[yeoman]

Hi Yeoman

I read this thread from the start and noticed a couple of years back you posted different sentiments. Has working there changed in the last couple of years (Thom to Tui) or have you just got wracked off with it? Genuine question in case it reads as sarky (it’s not meant if it does). What you describe does sound quite full on for one trip.

Thanks.

No problem.

It’s a lot of the former and a fair bit of the latter. I don’t know what duties the Happy Squad are flying but my earlier post stems from my increasing frustration at having to sort loads of stuff that needs sorting because others have failed to do it. As a pilot I expect to manage wrinkles down route, it’s part of my job but I’m now managing routine stuff that should be being done and it’s starting to distract me from my real role, keeping it safe.

As for the eternal SH / LH debate, I’m happy enough on the Plastic Fantastic as it’s a nice aircraft to fly and suits a lazy git like me. It’s all the other crap that irks me, crap that could be got rid of if we invested some time, effort and cash in doing it properly rather than relentlessly looking for cost savings in one area that inevitably end up costing somewhere else. In short, I’m tired of picking up the bits. I also think SH is even worse, I’ve had a few health issues and been clearly told that the SH roster was not doing me any favours; apart from anything else, the sheer ergonomic stupidity of the 737 was ruining me!

i also like summer leave and for me, the 787 offers the opportunity for me to get away with my school age kids. I’ll put up with a lot to get that but it also begs the question why as a “family friendly” employer I had to make such a decision in the first place.

As for the oblique reference to “my position”, I’m giving that up too. I’m tired of people sniping who don’t have the pods to stick their heads above the parapet. The nomination process starts in a few days and I look forward to reading a load of manifestos from people who can clearly do a better job of it. I learnt to deal with disappointment a long time ago.....

As for the original question, yep, there would be someone in my seat before it was even cold if I left and yep, there are some good parts to the job, it’s just we seem to expend so much effort on making life difficult for no real gain when actually a little bit of effort would have so much positive effect.

Back in my box I go.

[yeoman]

But before I go, Doobler, as a MAN bod with a load of other stuff on my roster I’ve never been to LIR or MRU. I’ve got more nights in the Divi than any man alive:p

[EPRman]

yeoman,

My ‘oblique reference’ to your position was a courtesy to you. I could have been less discreet.

You do sometimes come across as a little touchy at times.

Regards.

[yeoman]

yeoman,

My ‘oblique reference’ to your position was a courtesy to you. I could have been less discreet.

You do sometimes come across as a little touchy at times.

Regards.

A courtesy I sincerely appreciate. We are at cross purposes, I was attempting to continue to be as veiled / discrete as you were kind enough to be.

And I’m not touchy at times, I’m touchy all the bloody time!

[olster]

I completely agree with Yeoman. I spent countless times chasing up hotel rooms / flights / taxis that were not booked in my tenure with Thomson / Tui or whatever they’re called this week. In 2 years with my Northern orientated airline, never had a problem. Go figure and be careful what you wish for.

[qwassaf]

Is anyone here invited for the assessment on the 19th of june at East midlands? no airline experience job in specific.

[22052014]

Is anyone here invited for the assessment on the 19th of june at East midlands? no airline experience job in specific.

hey mate,

are you rated ? Were you in the holding pool ?

[qwassaf]

Not rated ... finished flight school a month ago. managed to get the invite for the less than 500hr job opening.

[cloudbash]

Does anyone know what the tech exam consists of?

Thanks

[BoeingBoy]

Yeoman and all the other TUI posters........

Thank you so much for making me realise that retirement is even more wonderful than I thought!

:}:ok:

[beamer]

BB......I concur. Golf on thursday, day at the cricket yesterday and in the garden all day today when not walking the hound......

[beamer]

BB.....I concur. Golf on thursday, day at the cricket yesterday and in the garden all day today when not walking the hound....lovely !

[2078OWHC]

Afternoon folks,

Just after a bit of advice really! Long story short I'll be going onto the 787 based out of BHX starting in August. I'm currently flying the Q400, doing 900 hours a year on a very busy 5 days on, two days off roster on an aircraft which tries to kill you at least three times a day the moment you take your eyes off it! Essentially jumping from an aircraft that weighs just under thirty tonnes up to an aircraft which weighs just under 300 tonnes, is slightly daunting but I'm looking forward to the challenge. I was wondering how others found the transition onto the 787. Was it a huge tech jump? How is it to fly? Etc...I don't think my usual routine of waking up and praying to the Bombardier Gods is going to work for the 787 as it does for the Dash!

In terms of rosters I'm very used to being worked to the ragged edge, doing 900 hours on full five day weeks with just two days and sometimes even less days off inbetween! Nonetheless I fully expect the LH rosters to be very busy aswell, but even so I'm hoping it'll make a nice change from the drumming I'm currently getting!

Cheers

[Flocks]

If you work for the airline I think ... And if you really fly 900hr a year ... You decided yourself to remove the 750hr max a year of your schedule agreement.

Saying that, I have not doubt the 787 will be much more easy than the Q400.
Good luck.

[pudoc]

787 is a lovely machine. It's not without it's gotchas but I trust your experience of thinking "how will it kill me now?" with the Q400 should serve you well on the 78. I imagine turbo prop to heavy jet will probably be quite the learning curve but I've never flown a turboprop so wouldn't know.

LH rosters can be busy, especially winter time, but in the summer 14-15 days off per month and some short haul flights can be expected. I don't believe there are any short haul flights from BHX though...maybe they'll send you to MAN/LGW for a few over the summer but I have no idea.

[Black Pudding]

I find it hard to believe that Thomson would hire direct onto the 787 ?

[EPRman]

Dual flying 737 and 787. F/O’s only. Make of that what you will.

[pudoc]

Not all the non-type rated are being assigned dual fleet. Some of them 787 all year.

[SEBBES]

Not all the non-type rated are being assigned dual fleet. Some of them 787 all year.
787 all year but dual basing is it not? Winters in Scandi and Summers in the UK.

For anyone about to make the transition to TUI, especially those part of the mass exodus from the regional Q400 operator, you are making the right decision. Good luck!

[pudoc]

787 all year but dual basing is it not? Winters in Scandi and Summers in the UK.

For anyone about to make the transition to TUI, especially those part of the mass exodus from the regional Q400 operator, you are making the right decision. Good luck!

Yes indeed, but I’m talking about dual FLEET not dual base.

[DooblerChina]

Dual fleet is a trial, and one that’s been tried before several times. 78 winter, 73 Summer. At the minute, the training department can’t keep people
in check on one type never mind two. It’s a bright idea to keep costs down and reduce the Winter/Summer imbalance especially on the 73 fleet. The thought of employing staff to actually administer it or promoting trainers to deliver it it won’t of crossed anyone’s mind. Ill be amazed if it actually happens.

[G1991]

I'm also going onto the 787, as of August. Does anyone have an indication of what an FO would take in variable pay? and how that works out after taxes (I'm lead to believe a part of a part is tax-free). I'm completely lost by the breakdown of hour multiplications etc. and without a roster, have no info to base it off.

Thanks in advance

FDA is just over £4/hr inc. 75p/hr tax free (at the moment) which like most companies is any time you're away from base. Duty Rig is a bit of a mine field however mastered by some of the more savvy boys and girls on the line - they would be able to explain it much better than I! You collect credits which are each converted into cash. Just over £10/hr for each credit for an FO.It varies based on the duty but flying hours it's generally one credit per hour. Cat C airports generate two per hour (won't affect your fleet) while unsociable hours (inbound from Caribbean, outbound going east) generate 1.8 per flight hour.

For example:

01/01 - MAN-BGI 08:30 gate to gate = 8.5 credits
02/01 - BGI-LGW 08:00 gate to gate = 4 duty credits in sociable hours, 4 duty credits earned in unsocial hours = 4 + 7.2 = 11.2 credits

So on that trip you would earn 19.7 credits. As an FO that's roughly £200 from a bullet (plus £4/hr FDA). You also receive credits for standbys, sims, home study etc. There's other formulas also to protect you on a long trip. It's all far too complicated in my opinion but it can be very profitable when compared to many other UK airline systems.

As a new FO on the 78 you could do four bullets a month (at the VERY most), but most people do around three trips with beach/positioning days down route. Dependent on your UK base in the summer there maybe short haul also. The credit system/FDA work exactly the same as it does with long haul.

Hope this helps!

[busybee123]

Put simply for an FO work on about an extra 16-18k per year on top of salary for all the extra flight allowances. Probably a bit more for the long-haul fleet. Perhaps 18-20k. Even more if you do overtime throughout the year.

[patelv6]

Has anyone been called for an assessment in September? Any tips or info would be appreciated.PM

[Globally Challenged]

I booked myself onto the 17th - also interested in any recent tips or info not reflected earlier in this thread.

[donogca]

Afternoon,

Have any of you been offered a start date from the latest NTR recruitment?

Cheers

[22052014]

Booked myself too for the assessment, any info on what to expect from the interview, or any package to prepare for it ? Latest pilot jobs maybe ?


for TUI pilots, what roster is like on the 737 ?
what about the 787 roster instead ?


thanks to all !

[iburnthings]

Been invited to an assessment in a few weeks, anybody done it recently and have any information on what to expect?

Thanks!

[FlyingH1gh]

Evening all,

Is there assessments going on this week, any info from the latest round?

[ar1989]

Hi guys, anyone else been invited for an assessment on 06/11? Any info from people who did the last selection round? Thanks!

[Serenity]

Wondering g if any updates on assessments.

What do current employees make of TUI, would you join again??

[banterbus]

Anyone who got through to interview this week heard anything yet, good or bad?

[ar1989]

No nothing yet!! How about anyone else??

[busybee123]

Quite a number of people joining straight onto the 78 by the look of the latest seniority list.

75/76’s being phased out over next three years making way for 73Max and more 787 -9’s

[MikeAlpha320]

Has anyone got an example 787 roster I could see?

Cheers

[whereeverimayroam]

I'm in the hold pool, did the sim in Nov but not heard anything yet!

[whitepark109]

Did the sim in Nov! Starting 757 course in Feb, anyone else?

[ndue345]

I'm in the hold pool, did the sim in Nov but not heard anything yet!

Same case as you.

[NG Aviator89]

Hey guys/gals anyone been for the TR assessment recently PM me any tips of hits would greatly be appreciated

[cmav18]

Is there any NTR people from the Nov assessment still waiting on a start date? I’ve been in the pool since Nov.

[FlyingH1gh]

Is there any NTR people from the Nov assessment still waiting on a start date? I’ve been in the pool since Nov.
Also in the hold pool but no news yet. I did hear some rumours of a management restructure so not sure if that has helped!

[ndue345]

Is there any NTR people from the Nov assessment still waiting on a start date? I’ve been in the pool since Nov.
Apparently, nothing has been planned until Autumn..

[FlyingH1gh]

Hi all,

Is anyone able to help with some questions for a potential new joiner?

- How does the rostering system work in basic terms?
- Is anyone able to share some 787 rosters for new FO's? And is this location specific i.e. does Manchester differ to Gatwick?
- expected time to LHS? I appreciate this can vary significantly.

Thank you in advance for any replies. FH

[HardLanding1]

Hi all,

Is anyone able to help with some questions for a potential new joiner?

- How does the rostering system work in basic terms?
- Is anyone able to share some 787 rosters for new FO's? And is this location specific i.e. does Manchester differ to Gatwick?
- expected time to LHS? I appreciate this can vary significantly.

Thank you in advance for any replies. FH

1- The rostering system is massively outdated compared to other airlines, but once your roster is published it's set and they can't do any significant changes without your permission. There is a bidding system, but I'm not sure it's ever given anyone what they want. It certainly hasn't for me, and I've not met anyone singing it's praises.

2 - In winter imagine a mix of trips from bullets (1 night) to week long trips, with a lot of positioning to Scandi land. Some trips are great e.g. 1 week downroute in LIR or CMB, others are grim (I have no idea how 21hrs down-route in Thailand is even legal). There's lots of positioning around the Caribbean too in a Jetstream or CRJ, which can be fun on short hops, tedious on longer ones. In summer it's more bullets on the 787, but if you're a new starter you won't see summer on a 787 for a few years as they're dual-fleeting people onto 737 for summers (They want to eventually make this dual-fleeting standard). 737 summers are brutal, expect 6 on 2 off with deep nights and transitions, the 737s saving grace is exceptionally quiet winters, however you'll be going back onto the 787 for winter to ensure you're busy!

3- Massively varies, I hear of people getting it at around 6 years on 737, 12+ on 787. Keep in mind that if you take LHS 737 after 6 years, you'll have to wait until your turn to get LHS 787 (It's not a fast track), although they may offer dual fleet again, so you get long haul in the winters if you're willing to sacrifice your life for some LH. Captain's payscales are calculated by time in rank, not time in company, so an earlier command is probably more profitable than holding out for 787 LHS. All fleets are on the same payscale.

Any other questions fire them my way, if you don't want to ask something publicly feel free to PM.

[FlyingH1gh]

1- The rostering system is massively outdated compared to other airlines, but once your roster is published it's set and they can't do any significant changes without your permission. There is a bidding system, but I'm not sure it's ever given anyone what they want. It certainly hasn't for me, and I've not met anyone singing it's praises.

2 - In winter imagine a mix of trips from bullets (1 night) to week long trips, with a lot of positioning to Scandi land. Some trips are great e.g. 1 week downroute in LIR or CMB, others are grim (I have no idea how 21hrs down-route in Thailand is even legal). There's lots of positioning around the Caribbean too in a Jetstream or CRJ, which can be fun on short hops, tedious on longer ones. In summer it's more bullets on the 787, but if you're a new starter you won't see summer on a 787 for a few years as they're dual-fleeting people onto 737 for summers (They want to eventually make this dual-fleeting standard). 737 summers are brutal, expect 6 on 2 off with deep nights and transitions, the 737s saving grace is exceptionally quiet winters, however you'll be going back onto the 787 for winter to ensure you're busy!

3- Massively varies, I hear of people getting it at around 6 years on 737, 12+ on 787. Keep in mind that if you take LHS 737 after 6 years, you'll have to wait until your turn to get LHS 787 (It's not a fast track), although they may offer dual fleet again, so you get long haul in the winters if you're willing to sacrifice your life for some LH. Captain's payscales are calculated by time in rank, not time in company, so an earlier command is probably more profitable than holding out for 787 LHS. All fleets are on the same payscale.

Any other questions fire them my way, if you don't want to ask something publicly feel free to PM.
Thanks for the reply - very helpful!
It sounds like the rostering is changing to get the most out of everybody, can I assume that means 900 hours a year is to be expected?

[HardLanding1]

I can’t say for sure as I don’t know if many people have done a full 12months dual fleeting without taking 1 or 2 months off the line for a type rating (or 2!). However I think 900hrs is a target they will aim for and hit!

I won’t say too much for reasons of anonymity but I worked a lot less at my previous LoCo. However the crews are great, and the company has a very personal feel about it which is a nice change compared to some of the larger airlines.

[kindupnorth]

Guys and Girls, Does anybody knows if a 3 year payment of 7k is required if you apply for a type rated position on the 737/787 and are already
rated on the 73 but get given the 787 to start with essentially putting you in a NTR position or is it just bond if you leave of 7k for 3 years

[The Foss]

I don’t think it’s a 7k upfront payment but rather a 7k deduction in your first year. Bizarrely that was the case even if joining onto the same fleet you were currently rated on, which is probably the most expensive OCC around!?
I stand to be corrected but I believe all the contracts now have a detail written that you could be based in the Nordics for up to 6 months per year as well?

[FlyingH1gh]

I can’t say for sure as I don’t know if many people have done a full 12months dual fleeting without taking 1 or 2 months off the line for a type rating (or 2!). However I think 900hrs is a target they will aim for and hit!

I won’t say too much for reasons of anonymity but I worked a lot less at my previous LoCo. However the crews are great, and the company has a very personal feel about it which is a nice change compared to some of the larger airlines.
Thank you for the PM - very helpful! I tried to respond but don't think its sent, might have to clear your inbox/sent items.

[whereeverimayroam]

I've been offered the 787 in LGW for June. Do any of the current employees know if pilots mainly commute to LGW (obviously one that don't live in the south east)? I live in the southwest so I would be looking to get on the 737 short haul somewhere in this area in the future!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

1- The rostering system is massively outdated compared to other airlines, but once your roster is published it's set and they can't do any significant changes without your permission. There is a bidding system, but I'm not sure it's ever given anyone what they want. It certainly hasn't for me, and I've not met anyone singing it's praises.


I understand Tui use Jeppesen - same system as BA / VS to my knowledge and certainly not outdated to what other UK AOC's use. Can't comment about bidding - speak to the Company / Union?
It might be me but there is a lot on whinging from Pilots on the BA thread , and now TUI which i'd have thought tbh anywhere else is going to be worse apart from say VS/Easy.
Just a sign of the times I guess....

[theboeingpilot]

Hi all,

Thinking of applying for the current recruitment phase, I’m 787 rated and previous 73.

what can you expect take home pay flying summer 73 and winter 78 on full time contract?

Thanks

[G1991]

Hi all,

Thinking of applying for the current recruitment phase, I’m 787 rated and previous 73.

what can you expect take home pay flying summer 73 and winter 78 on full time contract?

Thanks

After the first year with a £7000 reduction roughly £4500-£5000/m net for an average working FO. Usually slightly more on the 78 than 73 because of the trips and how duty rig is weighted. If you throw in flexi (overtime) however much you want! Many guys go into the six figures if you work the system...

[theboeingpilot]

Great, thanks for the info and reply G1991

[MikeAlpha320]

Hi guys, are people actually being dual rated 73/78?

[DooblerChina]

Any current Tui pilots know which regional bases are the least popular? It seems there is some upcoming recruitment into regional bases only and wondering what the options might be. Thanks.

Newcastle & Cardiff

[vrb03kt]

Hi guys, are people actually being dual rated 73/78?

Only if based at LGW/MAN/BHX, summer 737 winter 787.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

What is the current typical time to command with TUI?

[MikeAlpha320]

So there is no 787 all year round positions?

[The Foss]

So there is no 787 all year round positions?
you have to apply internally, know people who got full time 787 in 6-12 months

[SEBBES]

you have to apply internally, know people who got full time 787 in 6-12 months

It is possible, although those would have had to have joined with a 737 type rating and therefore only be type frozen for 12 months, as opposed to a 3 year type freeze for NTR joiners going onto the 737. Otherwise only bidding for dual 737/787 could perhaps get you onto the 78 that quickly, although not all year round.

[flyboy146]

Hi. What are the chances of getting BRS as a base as a new joiner?

[FlyingH1gh]

Hi. What are the chances of getting BRS as a base as a new joiner?
It's a small base but it was offered in the most recent round of new starters. If you don't get it straight away you can bid for it as soon as you join.

[flyboy146]

Thank you!

[G-IZMO]

Hi all,

if anyone has an indicative NCL FO roster for summer they’d be prepared to give me (not all details, just destinations and duty times) by PM i’d Be very grateful.

Cheers
G

[hec7or]

What is the current typical time to command with TUI?

deafening silence......

[nosmo king]

Currently about 6 years.

[Beakor]

Some pilots with joining dates of early 2013 are pencilled in for command courses this winter. Don’t think you can infer from that, that pilots joining now can expect the same in 2025. Although it’s unlikely to be earlier than that, it could be considerably later.

[SeaBreeze1]

50 ex TCX skippers to be employed in time for S20

[pudoc]

50 ex TCX skippers to be employed in time for S20

I imagine there are some very unhappy FOs waiting for their command. BALPA strikes again.

[plikee]

I imagine there are some very unhappy FOs waiting for their command. BALPA strikes again.

Does it matter? I thought the process is still based on seniority.

[Akrapovic]

Does it matter? I thought the process is still based on seniority.

It does matter if 50 people walk in above you . . .

[plikee]

It does matter if 50 people walk in above you . . .

How can anyone walk in above you if they are less senior than you? Doesn't that defeats the seniority system? Unless the process it's not based on seniority, I don't see how it can affect you. I'm not a TUI employee so I honestly don't know how it works, just making and observation.

[deltahotel]

Not clear from Seabreeze1 post whether 50 ex tcx skippers are being employed as DEC or FO

[763 jock]

They are after 50 ex Thomas Cook DEC.

[VJW]

They are after 50 ex Thomas Cook DEC.

From the Liverpool Echo
TUI Airways will create jobs for over 100 pilots and over 200 cabin crew, with 50 Thomas Cook pilots guaranteed to fill the vacancies.

Dawn Wilson, managing director for TUI Airways said: "We are delighted that our additional flying allows us to grow our team of ‘moment makers’ at TUI Airways"Every year we welcome new cabin crew and pilots and this year is set to be our biggest and best yet.

"I’m particularly proud to be able to commit to offering over 50 Thomas Cook (https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/thomas-cook-refund-website-crashes-17046279) Captains the opportunity to join TUI Airways and continue to fly customers on their holidays.”

So of the 100 pilot jobs they’re all DEC with 50 going to ex TCX? 🤔

[pudoc]

Its 100 pilots, 50 of which are TCX DEC. Who will join the bottom of the seniority list as captains. Round of applause to whoever came up with that.

[VJW]

Its 100 pilots, 50 of which are TCX DEC. Who will join the bottom of the seniority list as captains. Round of applause to whoever came up with that.

Yeah I didn’t make my sarcasm obvious enough. I wonder what the FO’s in TUI think? I’m all for airlines bending over backwards to help our unfortunate colleagues at TCX, but at the expense of progression of employees already there is out of order really.

[macdo]

I think if you read the communication released by TUI and by their CC it is clear that they are taking the 50 TCX skippers on because they don't have the training capacity to promote enough FO's into the left seats created by the sudden rapid and unexpected expansion of their s20 operation. Now, in a balanced world the TUI FO's in the command pool may feel aggrieved, but had TCX not gone bust it is likely that the same number of them will have got upgraded as will now. Handled badly, this could really sour industrial relations, but it really shouldn't if sufficient effort is made to explain to the TUI FO's that they have not been disadvantaged. Sadly, history tends to not show that hese things are handled well, so fingers crossed eh?

[763 jock]

Airline managers will do what they want to make a profit. Make no mistake, your career aspirations mean nothing to them.

This will be sold to the TUI pilots as being far better than 3rd party ACMI being used to fill the void. Either way, the result is the same.

[nightfright]

Airline managers will do what they want to make a profit. Make no mistake, your career aspirations mean nothing to them.

This will be sold to the TUI pilots as being far better than 3rd party ACMI being used to fill the void. Either way, the result is the same.


Totally correct. The fleet preference has always been Boeing and this is obviously a short term plug - Good move from TUI to secure airframes and crew at a lower price and to grow ...... This will no doubt leave significant backlash from existing crew but surely the DEC or Crews will be joining bottom of the rank - nevertheless this will significantly increase the time to command for experienced FOs

[Lazydogg]

I think if you read the communication released by TUI and by their CC it is clear that they are taking the 50 TCX skippers on because they don't have the training capacity to promote enough FO's into the left seats created by the sudden rapid and unexpected expansion of their s20 operation. Now, in a balanced world the TUI FO's in the command pool may feel aggrieved, but had TCX not gone bust it is likely that the same number of them will have got upgraded as will now. Handled badly, this could really sour industrial relations, but it really shouldn't if sufficient effort is made to explain to the TUI FO's that they have not been disadvantaged. Sadly, history tends to not show that hese things are handled well, so fingers crossed eh?

I am 100 percent certain I know what the TUI FOs I have spoken with today would say to that. Those same TUI FOs who have waited patiently for command opportunities that are scarce enough as it is. Apparently some of them (up until 1330ish today) have heard nothing yet from the CC. If that’s true, it’s a disgrace in my opinion. If TCX pilots want to join TUI then they should be joining at the bottom of the list as FOs like the existing guys and girls did. Some of the FOs don’t even know if the CRB has sat yet, and what it all means in terms of their potential career progression going forward.
I have always shrugged my shoulders and said “decent career move can’t knock it” when many an FO I’ve flown with over the last number of years has said they are joining TUI. For what’s it’s worth I won’t be anymore if this shambles goes ahead. I wish no bad on the TCX guys, but I genuinely feel for the guys in the RHS at TUI.

Its absolutely wrong and you know it MACDO. Would this have happened in TCX if the roles were reversed?

[Twiglet1]

If TUI are getting extra aircraft at short notice then yes it makes sense i'm afraid - if you promote 50 TUI FO you also need to recruit 50 FO to replace them and 50 for the extra aircraft.
TUI are taking advantage of TC demise and why shouldn't they. The thing TUI must do however is keep promoting FO's for the current establishment such that the current (loyal) FO's are not discriminated against. I'm sure BALPA have put this message over strongly. They should also say that should any of the 50 DEC leave then they are replaced by TUI FO rather than more DEC such that the (loyal) FO's benefit again.
This is NNUTS - Nothing New Under The Sun - many other airlines have done this before

[iggle piggle]

Did Tui do a similar thing back in 2004( roughly) with the creation of Thomsonfly? What happened then? I can’t remember, I’m not with Tui.

[lederhosen]

This happened at BA when British Midland disappeared and there were restrictions on what the direct entry captains could do. Subsequently not all were happy with their lot. It would be interesting to know how that has developed. Given the airbus versus boeing split with TC and Thomson I wonder what they are going to be flying?

[Pin Head]

Seen why they have done it but totally disagree with it. Always saw it coming this though TBH.
what if another credit crunch happens or the Brexit things explodes? Another 5yrs waiting! With guys junior to you making a lot more cash and holding Lhs.

[763 jock]

There are no Boeing pilots from TCX. It has been all Airbus for a while. A handful might be able to do a quick LPC to get the 757 renewed. But only a few.

[Too Few Stripes]

Have the ex-TCX pilots who overwhelmingly voted to stop any DECs at TCX now changed their minds on DEC? Amazing how quickly an opinion changes when the mortgage needs paying. Would TCX Pilots have been happy if the roles were reversed? Tough times for all but perhaps it’s time to have a rethink on strict seniority in certain airlines and also the use of DEC where appropriate.

[twogoodstarts]

In the knowledge of how much this has already ruffled the FO’s feathers at TUI, I’d be very surprised if any TCX DEC would even want to set foot into the left hand seat of a TUI aircraft. They’re not going to be the most popular of people that’s for sure, as many senior FO’s have waited patiently for their turn in what has always been traditionally a legacy seniority based airline.

[double-oscar]

Business is business. If the airline can come up with a plan to manage this expansion then it will be good for everyone. Some might think they have been disadvantaged in the short term but in the long term it should mean more job security. If the airline cannot manage it the alternative is to give the work to a third party operator and in that case no one in the company will benefit. If it is well handled I don't think anyone ex-Thomas Cook should have any fears about joining TUI.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

In the knowledge of how much this has already ruffled the FO’s feathers at TUI, I’d be very surprised if any TCX DEC would even want to set foot into the left hand seat of a TUI aircraft. They’re not going to be the most popular of people that’s for sure, as many senior FO’s have waited patiently for their turn in what has always been traditionally a legacy seniority based airline.

Not true.

Thomas Cook pilots will be welcomed into TUI with open arms.

At TUI, been through loads of mergers and changes and the pilots from the ‘other’ company are never blamed.

I and others look forwards to meeting any new pilots from Thomas Cook and hope it works out for them.

This is an unusual situation and the rapid and huge planned TUI expansion wouldn’t be happening if Thomas Cook hadn’t gone bust.

[corporaljones]

Also true, it’s undoubtedly ruffled a few feathers but I think we can all say as TUI FOs we would extend the same courtesy and professionalism towards whoever occupies the LHS. Whilst I won’t fly with any of them on the 787 (that would cause a riot!) I look forward to meeting our new ex-TCX colleagues and hope you are very happy here. You’ll have to give up the Airbus for a right shed though 🤪

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Have the ex-TCX pilots who overwhelmingly voted to stop any DECs at TCX now changed their minds on DEC? Amazing how quickly an opinion changes when the mortgage needs paying. Would TCX Pilots have been happy if the roles were reversed? Tough times for all but perhaps it’s time to have a rethink on strict seniority in certain airlines and also the use of DEC where appropriate.
If TUI went bust sure they would. The key is BALPA imhv. They say no and it gives Tui the right to go cheapo loco wet lease. That means no promotions for Tui FO.
As long as DEC doesn't impact any upgrades planned then FO's can't complain - for sure there might be a squeeze but upgrades should continue

[macdo]

I am 100 percent certain I know what the TUI FOs I have spoken with today would say to that. Those same TUI FOs who have waited patiently for command opportunities that are scarce enough as it is. Apparently some of them (up until 1330ish today) have heard nothing yet from the CC. If that’s true, it’s a disgrace in my opinion. If TCX pilots want to join TUI then they should be joining at the bottom of the list as FOs like the existing guys and girls did. Some of the FOs don’t even know if the CRB has sat yet, and what it all means in terms of their potential career progression going forward.
I have always shrugged my shoulders and said “decent career move can’t knock it” when many an FO I’ve flown with over the last number of years has said they are joining TUI. For what’s it’s worth I won’t be anymore if this shambles goes ahead. I wish no bad on the TCX guys, but I genuinely feel for the guys in the RHS at TUI.

Its absolutely wrong and you know it MACDO. Would this have happened in TCX if the roles were reversed?

I don't really want to get into a spat over this and if you read the next half dozen posts below your own, it covers pretty much all the views applicable to the circumstances. To answer your question directly, in my (long) service this has happened on two occasions which affected me directly. And to be honest, my feathers were ruffled for a short while, but at the time, the rapid expansion of the airline dragged everyone in its wake and the feathers were soon unruffled. If TUI was in a period of stagnation I would be in total agreement with you, but TUI is growing and with the demise of TCG it has the potential to grow very fast indeed. Or else J2 will suck up the business and everyone else will be up a creek. If you get new aircraft that require 50 Captains but can't train them yourself, this is a nil sum game for the existing FO's at worst, and a faster promotion at best. I can tell you one thing for sure, I would far rather go this route than suffer the indignity of creeping ACMI. Just ask the displaced TC crews, all recent, who's work was being done by ACMI. That is the thin end of a very dangerous wedge. All the best.

[Cuillin Hills]

Air UK Leisure did this years ago (1991) when Air Europe went bust - took on a load of ex Air Europe B737 DEC and put them at the bottom of the seniority list.

Suitably qualified, and senior enough, individuals couldn’t upgrade or transfer.

Every suitable FO above first DEC at bottom of list should get passover pay - but that won’t happen.

i learned my lesson about the limitations of seniority lists at an early stage of my career.

Company can do what it wants - at least you know where you stand now.

[ShotOne]

I don’t recall any vote about DEC within TCX. In fact a significant number were taken on the DC10 fleet in MyTravel. More pertinently, a large and increasing proportion of TCX passengers were being flown by de-facto DEC and DE FOs belonging to ACMI contractors SmartLynx and Avion -to the extent that three bases (EMA/STN/BFS) had already closed for pilots. If abandoning this scheme meant scores of TUI internal promotions I’d agree with the critics. But it wouldn’t; the alternative is a career-smothering influx of ACMI, unlikely to be reversed.

[763 jock]

TUI need to be quick about this. A large number of TCX pilots are already on their way to new positions. A significant number will be getting start dates in the next couple of weeks.

[clamchowder]

DEC is not fair. TUI seniority is like clown seniority these days. First they lock everyone on the 756 fleet and open the gates to less senior 737 pilots to move to 787 now they take DEC. All in the same breath as pension being cut, not a great pay deal and top dog CC member gets a management position. House of cards.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

Have the ex-TCX pilots who overwhelmingly voted to stop any DECs at TCX now changed their minds on DEC? Amazing how quickly an opinion changes when the mortgage needs paying. Would TCX Pilots have been happy if the roles were reversed? Tough times for all but perhaps it’s time to have a rethink on strict seniority in certain airlines and also the use of DEC where appropriate.

Not sure where you got that from but it’s utter tosh. There has never been a vote on DECs at TCX!

To answer your question re role reversal, would TC guys have been happy if it happened during normal times, of course not. But these are unprecedented times, and I can categorically say that if the boot was on the other foot, and TCX guys had a choice of DECs and expanding the business, or digging the heels in and the business stagnating while cut throat competitors jumped in with 2 feet, I know which would have been the preferred option for the vast majority!

[beamer]

No axe to grind myself having bailed out three years ago and landed safely !

On the plus side, a chance for Tui to expand and absorb a good proportion of TCX business. On the down side the old spectre of DEC pissing off existing TUI right hand seaters. However it should be remembered that there has been significant progress down the seniority list for new commands over the last 2-3 years and as such there should not be many long serving FO's, ready for command, who are affected in the short term.

Never much liked the seniority system myself and as far I know, Tui still operate the 'one list' version rather than two lists, one for each seat.

Overall, I think the 'glass half full' approach will serve most pilots well. Hopefully, many TCX pilots are already finding jobs elsewhere in the industry.

[763 jock]

It will be interesting to see what TUI are offering. They were charging £7000 a year (3 years, pre tax) for type ratings/OCC not so long ago. Combine that with the part year option on offer and I don't think a huge number of ex TCX pilots will be breaking the door down to get in.

There are lots of other things available.

[midnight cruiser]

TUI DEC NTR (https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/290.html) only ex TCX can apply! :rolleyes:

[Sempre Volando]

Has all external recruitment other than ex-TCX stopped at Tui now? Is anyone other than ex-TCX starting anytime soon?

[EdnaClouds]

I think if you read the communication released by TUI and by their CC it is clear that they are taking the 50 TCX skippers on because they don't have the training capacity to promote enough FO's into the left seats created by the sudden rapid and unexpected expansion of their s20 operation.

Herein is what the majority of the workforce are struggling with.

How long is it from an interview, to a job offer, to a full 737 TR, to line training over the winter where training is already at maximum capacity and there is fewer sectors available compared to an already 737 TR’ed command ready FO?

Expansion is good news, don’t get me wrong but I’m not sure the company are going down the right path with regard to the timeframe available for Summer 20.

[midnight cruiser]

Indeed, if limited training capacity is the justification, why is it restricted to TCX who are almost all needing a full type rating ... while there are many very experienced type rated captains, some of whom are under threat of redundancy or significant upheaval, who would leap at the opportunity, and burden the training capacity far less, or TUI copilots who could upgrade, and be replaced by external type rated FOs.

[Too Few Stripes]

Is it even legal to discriminate in such an overt way? Tesco are recruiting for shelf stackers but only ex-Asda employees can apply - it’s the same thing in my eyes. In fact, thinking about it, it’s even worse because TUi are limiting their DEC recruitment to pilots from only one employer who are not even rated on the TUi types. I think if I was in the market for a DEC position and not ex-Tcx I’d have a very strong legal case, I’m even more amazed that BALPA seem happy with this arrangement.

[763 jock]

Is it even legal to discriminate in such an overt way? Tesco are recruiting for shelf stackers but only ex-Asda employees can apply - it’s the same thing in my eyes. In fact, thinking about it, it’s even worse because TUi are limiting their DEC recruitment to pilots from only one employer who are not even rated on the TUi types. I think if I was in the market for a DEC position and not ex-Tcx I’d have a very strong legal case, I’m even more amazed that BALPA seem happy with this arrangement.

They get around it one way or the other. Must be available immediately. Must have previous IT charter experience. Must have CAT C airfield experience. Must have flown an Boeing 321 NG within the last month.

It's a dirty game. Been in it for 30 years.

[Smooth Airperator]

Indeed, if limited training capacity is the justification, why is it restricted to TCX who are almost all needing a full type rating ... while there are many very experienced type rated captains, some of whom are under threat of redundancy or significant upheaval, who would leap at the opportunity, and burden the training capacity far less, or TUI copilots who could upgrade, and be replaced by external type rated FOs.


This is gonna get really messy. Not doubting anyone's professionalism or skill but older people with a new TR especially if they've never flown a Boeing before is generally speaking, a bad recipe and one that breeds resentment amongst high time on type FOs. CRM issues will creep in if not handled carefully. Not a problem at some carriers but in a seniority driven, age-old UK company this will be complex. Also, in case of a downturn and job losses (unlikely I agree) I would imagine a former TCX Captain would have to be made redundant (instead of being demoted) before a high ranking TUI FO?

[ETOPS]

never flown a Boeing

Don't think you have the right argument here. As I understand it they are recruiting TCX flight crew along with their Airbus aircraft as there are no spare B738 easily available to capture the unsatisfied demand next year. TUI training couldn't cope with 50 conversion courses this winter anyway....

[Too Few Stripes]

I’ve just checked the advert for ex-TCX DEC, it very specifically states “All positions will be on the B737”. You’ll be struggling to find any 737 experience with ex-Tcx pilots so there is most definitely a training burden associated with this.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

I’ve just checked the advert for ex-TCX DEC, it very specifically states “All positions will be on the B737”. You’ll be struggling to find any 737 experience with ex-Tcx pilots so there is most definitely a training burden associated with this.

Of course there will be a training burden. And no most TCX guys won’t have 737 time, but what they will have is 1000s of Boeing hours, massive experience flying the same routes from the same places. For an airline that NEEDS to expand that is manner from heaven.

You’ve made it quite obvious that it’s a huge problem to you, so for that reason I genuinely hope it is managed well and your aren’t as disadvantaged as you obviously fear. If it is well managed then it’s an opportunity for all.

That said, the deal is so unappealing in many respects you may well get your wish anyway!

[artgur2438]

Hi guys

I have an assessment day next month. If anybody is reading this who went to this type of selection during the last round of recruitment with Thomson then I'd really appreciate some feedbacks on what to expect to aid my preparation. Has anybody been to their current assessments already or do you have one soon? Available via PM if needed

I'm particularly interested in what the technical test entails. ATPL theory or aptitude/maths verbal reasoning or a combination of both? Maybe type specific questions on type?:ugh:

Thank you in advance for your help,

Good flights to all !

[Raph737]

Good evening! Does anyone know what is the sitaution with the talent pool at the moment? How many swimmers are out there or what is the time to being offered a position, for type rated FO's?

Many thanks!

[Jonty]

Of course there will be a training burden. And no most TCX guys won’t have 737 time, but what they will have is 1000s of Boeing hours, massive experience flying the same routes from the same places. For an airline that NEEDS to expand that is manner from heaven.

You’ve made it quite obvious that it’s a huge problem to you, so for that reason I genuinely hope it is managed well and your aren’t as disadvantaged as you obviously fear. If it is well managed then it’s an opportunity for all.

That said, the deal is so unappealing in many respects you may well get your wish anyway!

I know some are turning TUI down for other options because the deal is so bad.

[ATIS]

Are you able to post the deal on offer for the DECs?

[The Mixmaster]

Allegedly the TUI BALPA forum is being moderated to remove all discussion surrounding alleged conflict of interest surrounding BALPA CC and recruitment of TCX DEC. Seems more like a tinpot dictatorship than a democratic organisation at the moment.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

They are working on many forums...

[LeoNugent]

Allegedly the TUI BALPA forum is being moderated to remove all discussion surrounding alleged conflict of interest surrounding BALPA CC and recruitment of TCX DEC. Seems more like a tinpot dictatorship than a democratic organisation at the moment.

Hi Mixmaster

What a load of tripe. No good deed goes unpunished on social media. The truth is that BALPA actively sought to provide help, instruction and opportunities for Thomas Cook Pilots post the collapse of that fantastic airline. The TUI CC has acted to support the speculative acquisition of market share and talent. Time to Command was already down to 4.5 years, that's aside from the obvious practical issues in getting many new aircraft in the sky by May 2020. Taking the "fight" to Jet2 and easyJet

So let's stick to the up sides. The ex Thomas Cook Pilots are being added to the very bottom of the Date of Joining Seniority List and that was post an all TUI Pilot Bid. Current TUI Pilots are going to get more opportunities not less: 40+ command courses this winter alone. A weeks is a long time in UK Aviation, it was ever thus, so let's see how this ambitious expansion goes.

For my money I wish the new joiner Pilots a long a fruitful career within the travel giant TUI Group

Best regards - Captain Leo Nugent TUI CC / NEC

[double-oscar]

Although expansion is good news, I think there are questions being asked about the actions taken that both the company and the union seem reluctant to answer.

[LeoNugent]

Fire away - any questions that don't involve slander, libel, etc. I'll answer

[GKOC41]

Good post LeoN. If there is no impact to TUI FO's Command opportunity its a win-win or just Nigels just doing what they do best....

[Sempre Volando]

Good news in terms of expansion and the reported 2 million extra seats. Market share is key. Are there extra aircraft planned to be arriving as part of the expansion though?

[LeoNugent]

Yes - the business is apparently trying to source new hulls, new routes and new airport contracts / slots

[horsebox]

Bear in mind that many TC guys may now be sitting on multiple job offers. Tui have moved fairly quickly, but the terms are the weakest. Jet2 seem to have started getting offers out this week. For an FO there is almost £20k difference between the 2 companies..

Having committed to expansion, they may not get everyone they want/need to join at this point.

I don't know what contingency they have, clearly non TC people, currently in a job are unlikely to be able to join TUI inside of 3 months, nor would be willing to accept chopped down part year part time stuff.

[Boeing 7E7]

Bear in mind that many TC guys may now be sitting on multiple job offers. Tui have moved fairly quickly, but the terms are the weakest. Jet2 seem to have started getting offers out this week. For an FO there is almost £20k difference between the 2 companies..

Having committed to expansion, they may not get everyone they want/need to join at this point.

I don't know what contingency they have, clearly non TC people, currently in a job are unlikely to be able to join TUI inside of 3 months, nor would be willing to accept chopped down part year part time stuff.

I suspect what will happen is that TUI will have offered jobs to the 50 best TC DECs. These pilots will be the ones who represent the very best in their profession. No doubt they will have attended several interviews and will be fortunate enough to be able choose the airline they want. Inevitably, if TUI’s offer is below market conditions and the best go to Jet2 etc, it will be TUI’s loss. But all TUI will do is go down the ‘list’ of pilots that applied until they get 50 DEC to fly the planes and it will be the people in TUI that miss out and not the business.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

Your suspicions are correct.....

[The Mixmaster]

Hi Mixmaster

What a load of tripe. No good deed goes unpunished on social media. The truth is that BALPA actively sought to provide help, instruction and opportunities for Thomas Cook Pilots post the collapse of that fantastic airline. The TUI CC has acted to support the speculative acquisition of market share and talent. Time to Command was already down to 4.5 years, that's aside from the obvious practical issues in getting many new aircraft in the sky by May 2020. Taking the "fight" to Jet2 and easyJet

So let's stick to the up sides. The ex Thomas Cook Pilots are being added to the very bottom of the Date of Joining Seniority List and that was post an all TUI Pilot Bid. Current TUI Pilots are going to get more opportunities not less: 40+ command courses this winter alone. A weeks is a long time in UK Aviation, it was ever thus, so let's see how this ambitious expansion goes.

For my money I wish the new joiner Pilots a long a fruitful career within the travel giant TUI Group

Best regards - Captain Leo Nugent TUI CC / NEC

So posts were not deleted on TUI BALPA forum relating to alleged conflict of interest?

[Raph737]

Just saw the TUI social media update, the ex TCX pilots welcome day. So they hired 100?? Shall we assume the 2020 slots are all gone? How many pilots were they planning to take? As I have the feeling I’ve missed this train again...

[macdo]

Just saw the TUI social media update, the ex TCX pilots welcome day. So they hired 100?? Shall we assume the 2020 slots are all gone? How many pilots were they planning to take? As I have the feeling I’ve missed this train again...
I'm pretty sure you are wrong. More take up in the early part of next year planned.

[Heathrow09L]

Just saw the TUI social media update, the ex TCX pilots welcome day. So they hired 100?? Shall we assume the 2020 slots are all gone? How many pilots were they planning to take? As I have the feeling I’ve missed this train again...


I think it’s safe to say that what TUI is offering is not attractive, a lot of the TCX guys/girls have taken it until something better comes along, a lot are in process with other airlines for interview and should they get the offer I am sure they will be more spaces in TUI to fill.

[Raph737]

Well the photo shows 100 pilots holding their wings up! They never take more than that, hence my question. They were adamant in the assessment day that we could be in the talent pool for 12 months. There are already guys waiting for several months in the pool, and there were people who applied earlier in the year, prior to TCX demise. Struggle to see how fair it is to wait so long for the assessments and then being by passed in this manner.
That leaves a lot of people in limbo, the same way many ex TCX guys could jump ship, other guys who are rated and ready could go elsewhere if left in the dark for too long. I think I have the right to be disappointed but such is life, accept and move on.

[Boeing 7E7]

I think I have the right to be disappointed but such is life, accept and move on.

Good idea.

[Raph737]

Good idea.

You should take the advice too...things won’t get any better for us at the Irish giant, reasons I applied to TUI. But I don’t think that diminishing people’s opinions on this matter online will help your cause, or mine.
Food for thought buddy!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I can sympathise with both sides of the debate on this. TUI is a great company so I understand where some people are coming from.

That said, I think it’s time for some perspective. Frankly, unless you’re unemployed with Xmas round the corner I struggle to feel too much emotion for those already gainfully employed and still able to pay the bills, albeit perhaps not while working for the company you may choose or sat in the seat you may wish to be in. Given time you’re move will still happen and from what I’ve seen those newly employed will joint the bottom of the seniority list anyway.

I don’t wish to belittle the concerns of people adversely affected but please spare a thought for those guys and girls that have lost their jobs. Some of whom are good mates of mine. In any case, frankly I’d rather see the TCX folks still able to pay their mortgages than worry about what this means for me me me.

[Raph737]

I can sympathise with both sides of the debate on this. TUI is a great company so I understand where some people are coming from.

That said, I think it’s time for some perspective. Frankly, unless you’re unemployed with Xmas around the corner I struggle to feel too much emotion for those already gainfully employed and still able to pay the bills, albeit perhaps not while working for the company you may choose or sat in the seat you may wish to be in. Given time you’re move will still happen and from what I’ve seen those newly employed will joint the bottom of the seniority list anyway.

I don’t wish to belittle the concerns of people adversely affected but please spare a thought for those guys and girls that have lost their jobs. Some of whom are good mates of mine. In any case, frankly, I’d rather see the TCX folks still able to pay their mortgages than worry about what this means for me me me.

You're absolutely right!! I have friends that are ex TCX and a couple actually have started with TUI. That said, RYR made a lot of us go, some were told to take 12 months unpaid leave or join Warsaw Aviation contracts/Malta air, others remain in limbo, not knowing what is going to happen(my case). If you are unlucky to be in one of the bases that were closed, then this situation of not being able to pay your mortgage is not exclusive to TCX pilots. I wish them all the best of luck, but I have to look after my own and yes, Xmas around the corner and I am not flying, I know the feeling all too well. I guess you can understand how frustrating it can be to other pilots whose airlines also went bust, or downsizing(Norwegian), or doing cuts(RYR) etc...

[LeoNugent]

So posts were not deleted on TUI BALPA forum relating to alleged conflict of interest?


The more strident posts that were bordering on libellous were edited or deleted by the member. Obviously to a greater extent than PPRUNE the forum has to be correctly managed. The trouble with forums or organisations is "the few" potentially making the situation wholly unpleasant.

BALPA work is not easy for a reason, that reason is often because difficult and challenging situations need to be addressed. The more pleasant problems of rapid growth in this case.. TUI Airways remains one of / the best job in Aviation

[iburnthings]

Any non-TC guys have an assessment last week and heard back yet?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

this situation of not being able to pay your mortgage is not exclusive to TCX pilots.

Absolutely. My sentiment applies to anyone already currently employed and able to pay the bills, even though it may not be at the airline or base of ones choosing. Those who've lost their job have my sincerest sympathy and above all else I'd like to see them re-employed as soon as humanly possible. If that comes at the cost of someone else waiting for a move to another airline a bit longer or another 12 months in the RHS, so be it. Theres bigger things in life and more at stake than moving from one shade of brown to another or doing the same job while sitting 2ft to the left.

[artgur2438]

Had an assessment last week too (Non TC). Not a single reply yet.

[The Mixmaster]

The more strident posts that were bordering on libellous were edited or deleted by the member. Obviously to a greater extent than PPRUNE the forum has to be correctly managed. The trouble with forums or organisations is "the few" potentially making the situation wholly unpleasant.

BALPA work is not easy for a reason, that reason is often because difficult and challenging situations need to be addressed. The more pleasant problems of rapid growth in this case.. TUI Airways remains one of / the best job in Aviation

Seems like the majority of your members disagree with your assessment Leo.

[LeoNugent]

Seems like the majority of your members disagree with your assessment Leo.




I’ve invested a lot of time over the last 8 years.. many a success and good insights in improving TUI & BALPA. This expansion has the same potential. That’s said, it could be death by the sword of democracy should I stand for the TUI CC again.

Short term emotional responses don’t often work in the Airline business

[ShotOne]

You’ve asked them all then, have you, mixmaster? TUI’s every possible course of action, including doing nothing carried a risk. The greatest of which arguably would have been slowly expanding into market share already taken by a faster- moving competitor.

[The Mixmaster]

You’ve asked them all then, have you, mixmaster? TUI’s every possible course of action, including doing nothing carried a risk. The greatest of which arguably would have been slowly expanding into market share already taken by a faster- moving competitor.

There is a poll taken on the BALPA TUI forum which shows a majority view ShotOne. I suggest you take a look at it.

Leo fair play you must have thought you were doing the right thing by your members. I’d say the non TR FO’s recently hired would feel aggrieved given they are paying 7k a year for 3 years for their ratings and given many will have also missed out on command due to the DEC’s who are in turn not paying for their ratings. Many other seniority based airlines can expand at short notice in an unemotional manner which respects seniority. Expansion appears to be a false flag in this instance. In an airline which is based on probably the least worst promotional system - Seniority has to stand for something.

[Jonty]

The exTCX guys are paying for their rating. £7k a year for 3 years, they are also forced into 50% part time in the winter season. That includes the DECs.

[Sempre Volando]

I believe the FO's are paying for their type ratings, not sure about the DEC's but happy to be corrected. I have friends that have waited patiently in the talent pool for a very long time, given course dates back in the summer for the new year (well over the normal 3 month notice period) and now find themselves potentially 60+ seniority places behind fast-tracked pilots. They are happy BALPA have looked after unemployed members from TCX, no one wishes anyone to be in a situation of unemployment, however as seniority seems to be king in terms of bases, redundancy and promotion, its a tough one to accept for them given they applied well over a year ago, have patiently waited in the talent pool for a call and have now seen hopes of a main base dual fleet go up in smoke, regional bases were only on offer when the calls were made yet now main bases are being offered to new joiners. The hope is this expansion goes very well but where are these extra aircraft coming from?

[Jonty]

DECs are paying (bonded) for their type rating as well. As for aircraft, your guess is as good as mine, I do wonder if they are hoping the Max will be back in service by summer 2020.
It’s a ****ty deal for your friends. All I can say is that no one wanted this. I imagine the vast majority of those pilots would have been much happier if TCX had carried on.

[Vwon]

The chances of a DEC leaving TUI for another airline are much lower than a DEP. Seems unfair on the face of it but makes sense.

[pudoc]

There's a difference between being bonded (TCX DEC??) and paying for your rating out of your salary every month for 3 years (every other non-rated joiner).

[Whitemonk Returns]

Look up the page at the BA thread and you will realise Balpa had no real part in this decision. Let's be real, I'm sure the CC etc were TOLD what was happening, but they don't have any power.

TUI had no choice, fail to act and J2 would have snapped up those 100 pilots and be breathing even deeper down their collars than they already are, particularly at MAN. J2 will have their own challenges at merging the TCX guys trust me. The good news is these TCX guys have got jobs where they want to be based, the 'bad' news is that seniority has again been exposed for what it is, a sham, at least in the UK anyway.

[LeoNugent]

Look up the page at the BA thread and you will realise Balpa had no real part in this decision. Let's be real, I'm sure the CC etc were TOLD what was happening, but they don't have any power.

TUI had no choice, fail to act and J2 would have snapped up those 100 pilots and be breathing even deeper down their collars than they already are, particularly at MAN. J2 will have their own challenges at merging the TCX guys trust me. The good news is these TCX guys have got jobs where they want to be based, the 'bad' news is that seniority has again been exposed for what it is, a sham, at least in the UK anyway.

The new DEC Pilots are joining the Seniority List as per their DOJ - We've seen this before and it all comes out in the wash. This is way easier than a regular merger UK or USA

[Mushyp1]

Any off the Non TCX folks who went for assessment heard anything back from a couple of weeks ago?

Have job and knew the TCX folks would be taken rapidly but still waiting to hear about the assessment? Would like to know either way?

cheers all 👍

[iburnthings]

Anybody know what the current situation with the 'Talent Pool' is? How long can you expect to wait for an offer?

[flyboy146]

Any off the Non TCX folks who went for assessment heard anything back from a couple of weeks ago?

Have job and knew the TCX folks would be taken rapidly but still waiting to hear about the assessment? Would like to know either way?

cheers all 👍


yup, got the email saying into the Talent Pool. I’m scratching my head slightly as they said they would certainly phone by the end of the month rather than email.

[SurfingClouds]

Any of you guys know how long can wait on the talent pool? Got the email and like the fellas scratching my head as well, don’t know how long can take and the big Irish kicking us out 🤔 thanks

[iburnthings]

Can anyone share what a typical roster is like on the 737, in particular Manchester base? Are there many planned overnights? Do many people actually do the dual rated with 787 or stay on the 73?

Thanks!

[MrKipling]

You’ve asked them all then, have you, mixmaster? TUI’s every possible course of action, including doing nothing carried a risk. The greatest of which arguably would have been slowly expanding into market share already taken by a faster- moving competitor.
I'm a bit late to the party on this but:
Wouldn't the company have been much better of taking rated pilots from its competitors therefore passing the training costs onto them and slowing down their competitors?

I'm not a business woman but the head of the airline is I believe, surely I'm missing something here?

[Black Pudding]

Depends on the company. Some companies hire type ratings others hire people.

best post I’ve read on here for ages

[MrKipling]

Depends on the company. Some companies hire type ratings others hire people.
very true, which is why companies interview and hold selection processes, so I dont understand your point.

Maybe you are saying only ex TCX pilots are any good? What about all the ex TCX folk who were turned down before even being interviewed? Who says they weren't suitable?

[richardthethird]

very true, which is why companies interview and hold selection processes, so I dont understand your point.

Maybe you are saying only ex TCX pilots are any good? What about all the ex TCX folk who were turned down before even being interviewed? Who says they weren't suitable?


I don’t think he was saying that TCX pilots were the only good pilots out there. I think he was saying nobody would touch a RYR pilot if they didn’t have to?!

[Boeing 7E7]

I don’t think he was saying that TCX pilots were the only good pilots out there. I think he was saying nobody would touch a RYR pilot if they didn’t have to?!

What ignorant cr@p. Some of the best pilots I’ve had the pleasure of flying with are ex Ryanair. The airline may treat its employees and public with disdain, but my experience of pilots trained by Ryanair is overwhelming positive.

[richardthethird]

That’s good to know. Very reassuring.

[VJW]

[That’s good to know. Very reassuring.

You being reassured by a comment from someone you don’t know on a forum instead of already having the knowledge that part of Ryanair’s excellent safety record is down to the professionalism of the flight crew, says more about you really.

Having had a look at some of your previous comments only proves you have a warped opinion about Ryanair. Let me reassure you (again) Ryanair doesn’t give out commands to anyone who puts their hand up asking for one. Did you do a command there? If not, what are you basing your comments on? Nothing, just garbage you’ve read online.

Everyone is different, but if two people take the same exam and one finds it easy, that’s not because the exam was easy it’s because that person prepared well for it.

[nightfright]

Sounds like Richard you are disgruntled about RYR for a possible rejection deviously maybe. - making baseless comments gets you no where. RYR has an impeccable safety record this is a testament of their training and their crew output. The shear volume of their operation bringing together many who have unequal level command of language and operating shear volumes of varied cultures - still thriving in what they are doing - leaves you thinking airlines wouldn’t touch their pilots? Is laughable comment. It has been told several times - RYR crew were most favoured by Emirates and many Middle East airlines as well as many UK airlines. such at TUI....... TUI largely for cost and reduced risk as typed but still.....

RYR may not be the best - but they offer and so what they say...Ultimately all airlines are commercial organisations and will take all routes to enhance their bottom line. They give you a salary and perks - you choose if its for you - if not - be professional and look else where... One many’s poison is another mans sweet!

[MrKipling]

"Ultimately all airlines are commercial organisations and will take all routes to enhance their bottom line.'

That's what you would think, so why take none rated DEC when there were pilots from other airlines who were rated and more than capable of doing the job. This would have saved TUI a fortune in training costs. I would have liked the chance!

As this is the rumour network: I've heard BALPA may have had a vested interest in this, both at CC level as certain pilots got taken on and also there were more BALPA members still paying subs than if they had taken on from other airlines. Just a rumour.

Anyhow it's done, I've cancelled BALPA subs.

[ItsonlyMeagain]

TUI took on pilots in trouble as did several other airlines. A pilot in a job can get another one. An unemployed one soon loses currency, but they still have bills to pay as the task to get employed gets harder. Unless you have been in the position you cannot appreciate the strife this causes. Good on these airlines.

And as this is a rumour network.... the truth is 2 of the old CC have been employed by TUI. Should they have been excluded from applying?

And, more fool you for leaving BALPA; you will never know when you will need help.

Me

[MrKipling]

What about when Thomson made over 100 pilots redundant some years back and then didnt offer them their jobs back when they were recruiting again? I didnt see BALPA helping the unemployed ones back through the door.

It's their train set though and none of my business so I'll wind my neck in😁

[nosmo king]

What about when Thomson made over 100 pilots redundant some years back and then didnt offer them their jobs back when they were recruiting again? I didnt see BALPA helping the unemployed ones back through the door.

It's their train set though and none of my business so I'll wind my neck in😁

your right it is their train set and it’s was Thomson’s HR department that denied giving those made redundant the automatic right to return. The managements fig leaf to those booted out was the request to keep their contact details up to date in the event they might recruit.

When recruitment did start 3 years later it was BALPA that repeatedly and pointedly asked the management to honour those comments.

Many of those that where made redundant were re-employed and many of those are now Captains.

Balpa was instrumental in protecting those pilots interests.

[MrKipling]

"Many of those that where made redundant were re-employed and many of those are now Captains."

I am reliably informed that it was less than 10 of the over 100 made redundant that got their jobs back and then only after having go through a full selection process. Obviously there would be some who didn't want yo go back but .....

So I suggest you check your facts.

Over and out.

[pudoc]

"Many of those that where made redundant were re-employed and many of those are now Captains."

I am reliably informed that it was less than 10 of the over 100 made redundant that got their jobs back and then only after having go through a full selection process. Obviously there would be some who didn't want yo go back but .....

So I suggest you check your facts.

Over and out.

Correct. And those pilots who re-joined did so with a lower seniority and on a new, lower pay scale.

I find it hard to agree that “BALPA was instrumental in protecting these pilots interests”.

[High Viz Vest]

The company did email the guys they laid off as they promised to say recruitment was open again. They then emailed them to say they weren't taking their applications further because they were no longer current on the 737 (although they would have been still rated). The union did apparently complain about this and 6 of the 130 (ish) who were made redundant got back in after a full selection process. The next intake after these 6 were the cadets they had employed after they made the 130 redundant.

So I guess you could say that BALPA might of helped 6 guys back into the firm. Not very impressive though is it? So Nosmo King: "Many of those that where made redundant were re-employed and many of those are now Captains." I think you are over stating the facts.

[midnight cruiser]

So, Thomson ...

​​​​​​- Furlough, with no priority return
- non-vocationally preferential hiring for favoured groups.
- DEC to same favoured folk without opening it to other type rated and equally, or more experienced pilots, even though the former have no rating. And over command ready internal FOs.
- pay deductions for training costs, even if you are type rated
- seasonal peak season only employment, only going full time if and when vacancies appear.

On the face of it, Thomson's ambition appears to be the bottom marker in the market? Or is the grubby hand of balpa more to blame?

[High Viz Vest]

The ones who were set on after being made redundant had to pay £7000 for line training (something like 4 sectors of training). So I guess similar amount as the redundancy money.

[Lazydogg]

richardthethird: That’s why TUI, BA , Emirates, Qatar , Jet2, Norwegian, have taken 100s of ex Ryanair pilots. Sciolist comes to mind. The airlines that have taken most of the Irish and UK pilots that I know are BA and TUI and Jet2.

Of course those three will let anyone fly their aircraft........

[Byrne11]

Does anyone have any Knowledge on the part time Winter contracts they’re currently offering. Would that be for a sustained period of time, or simply one/two years when they have balanced the books with the influx of TCX folks.

[Twinstar2007]

I see TUI now have a new DFO from TCX, hopefully he doesn’t bring in his best friend the Group Managing Director of Thomas Cook, would be such a tragic if TUI is led the same path TCX was by Flight Ops that have been in the press regarding their handling of pilot strike and pilot fatigue.

[macdo]

I see TUI now have a new DFO from TCX, hopefully he doesn’t bring in his best friend the Group Managing Director of Thomas Cook, would be such a tragic if TUI is led the same path TCX was by Flight Ops that have been in the press regarding their handling of pilot strike and pilot fatigue.
Seems that will not happen, rumour was running about a few weeks back, but got squashed pretty aggressively. MS will be an asset to all IMHO.

[artgur2438]

Hey all,
Just got the amail saying I’m in the talent pool:O
Does anyone know how many pilots are also in ? Do we know roughly how much time to be called ?

[jonesy05]

Any insight into the selection process?

[Well Used]

Flown with several FO's in the last few weeks that are fleeing Ryanair for Tui, several ready for command.

Didn't know Tui were so short. How many are you looking for?

[Raph737]

The healthiest thing one can do is to leave Ryanair and never look back.

[TommiW]

Have any DEP FO's from the recent Jan/Feb recruitment managed to get confirmed start dates this year or is it a case of filing the hold pool for 2021?

[The Mixmaster]

Hi Mixmaster

What a load of tripe. No good deed goes unpunished on social media. The truth is that BALPA actively sought to provide help, instruction and opportunities for Thomas Cook Pilots post the collapse of that fantastic airline. The TUI CC has acted to support the speculative acquisition of market share and talent. Time to Command was already down to 4.5 years, that's aside from the obvious practical issues in getting many new aircraft in the sky by May 2020. Taking the "fight" to Jet2 and easyJet

So let's stick to the up sides. The ex Thomas Cook Pilots are being added to the very bottom of the Date of Joining Seniority List and that was post an all TUI Pilot Bid. Current TUI Pilots are going to get more opportunities not less: 40+ command courses this winter alone. A weeks is a long time in UK Aviation, it was ever thus, so let's see how this ambitious expansion goes.

For my money I wish the new joiner Pilots a long a fruitful career within the travel giant TUI Group

Best regards - Captain Leo Nugent TUI CC / NEC

See the Chair of TUI CC has resigned. Interesting......

[Twiglet1]

See the Chair of TUI CC has resigned. Interesting......
Ready for a Maangement job you mean?

[vrb03kt]

https://careers.tuigroup.com/airline/pilot/

Open again for TR/NTR and military

[santacruz]

What would time to command be for someone joining now?

Does it vary much by base?

which bases do they have now in UK?

[twogoodstarts]

What would time to command be for someone joining now?

Does it vary much by base?

which bases do they have now in UK?


Time to command in TUI is more likely to be measured in decades as opposed to years for any new joiner starting now.
Morale is fairly low amongst FO’s at the moment with career progression set to continue at a snails pace.
IMO you’d be better off at any other UK airline in terms of time to command, including BA and Virgin.

[BentleyTheDog]

Has anyone done the digital interview yet?

[Whispering Giant]

I’ve been invited for a digital interview also. This must be a new part of the selection procedure as no one seems to have any information on it. So not sure what to expect.

[Jetpak]

Has anyone been brave enough to do the digital interview yet? Would be interested to hear what it entails?

[Taviator]

Time to command in TUI is more likely to be measured in decades as opposed to years for any new joiner starting now.
Morale is fairly low amongst FO’s at the moment with career progression set to continue at a snails pace.
IMO you’d be better off at any other UK airline in terms of time to command, including BA and Virgin.

You got any info on salary?
Whats the FO base, what’s your yearly total gross?

[doz111]

Has anyone been brave enough to do the digital interview yet? Would be interested to hear what it entails?


Question comes up with 3 mins on timer to think about it. When the timer runs out it starts recording (video) and you have 2 mins to say your answer. I had only 3 questions in total. You get one “practice” question to record before the first real one, where you can play back the recording to see how awful you look and sound!

Best of luck.

[roll_over]

What do they mean by part time in winter? Is that included in the salary advertised on PPJN?

[SEBBES]

You got any info on salary?
Whats the FO base, what’s your yearly total gross?

FO basic from 1st Jan 2023 £72k
FO 5 years in rank £79k
command suitable FO after 5 years in rank £86k

Expect on average 12-15k in duty pay.

Pilots that wanted to, earned a healthy sum in overtime this year ("Flexi") due to the crazy post covid restart of airline operations. I know many sub 5 year FOs in the company this year that will clear 100k.

Take all this with a pinch of salt though, I doubt the new jobs on offer will be full time and therefore the salaries deducted accordingly.

[550rvr]

Can anyone add more information about realistic time to command when considering the existing age demographic in the company? (I see the comment above about it is likely to be measured in decades)