DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 6 [Archive]

HeathrowDictator

19th May 2014, 13:35

Over the years, agents were given just as much (if not more at one time) commission to sell MME rather than NCL. Unfortunately for MME, it has never been as high profile as NCL...there has always been more choice IMHO from NCL therefore that was the first port of call for agents searching for holidays as it usually meant the flight supplements were cheaper.

MME will never be able to compete with the "bigger boys", however they shouldn't need to if they offer a good enough product catering to the niche market. One thing I always liked about the airport was the short distance from the car park to check in, to departures, to the aircraft.

By chasing the 1 million passenger dream, the airport over-stretched themselves and didn't claw back the expendeture quick enough following the demise of GSM, BMI, etc.

I saw in the previous thread comments hoping for a BEE service to LCY. One reason I personally can't see it happening is that to my knowledge the DH8D is a Cat 6 movement - the same as a B738...and the airport didn't want TOM this summer as it cost too much. Obviously there is more to it than just fire cat, however surely core personnel in the terminal have to be provided regardless of whether there is a KLM, an EZE or a TOM? I don't get how a one day a week Cat 6 movement cannot be feasible yet that is what BEE are offering to Jersey.

I really hope to see the airport survive and start to grow again as if nothing else, the loyal staff who have served the airport for many years deserve it, but one thing is for sure - any hope of seeing holiday flights and London services are virtually nil under the current business plan.

Phileas Fogg

19th May 2014, 13:42

sam dilly

19th May 2014, 17:08

2 charters to Lourdes this Friday morning
Air Europa 737 800 + Titan 737 300
Both full so 300+ passengers through the terminal
And they come next Friday 30th, on Albastar 737 400, and again Titan's 733:O

adfly

19th May 2014, 18:26

Has a exception been made for these flights or do they also fall foul of the 'no large aircraft' policy that pushed TOM and Balkan out? I'm interested to know what this new scheduled route will be though.

DaveReidUK

19th May 2014, 18:41

Would calling it "Darlington Airport" be too much to ask to explain to Joe Public where the airport is actually located?Middleton St George has a certain ring to it. :O

highwideandugly

19th May 2014, 18:48

It will be a miracle if they operate with no problems!:ok:

cumbrianboy

19th May 2014, 19:54

@adfly …

Re Thomson:

The problem when you have 1 or 2 weekly flights every week, you then have to staff up permanently for them and carry these costs such as security and terminal services. But crucially, as these 2 flights a week push the fire category up by 1 or 2 bands, then you need additional firemen and that starts to cost big money (plus additional fire kit for the larger aircraft has to be maintained etc)

All of this costs significant money for 1 or 2 flights a week (which are probably paying very little in landing fees and so there is little hope of the airport making their money back)

There's no doubt that the airport loses money. If there was a realistic possibility of a new based 737 operator then you would (business sense) suffer the losses but the radically changed aviation industry over the past few years, and unfortunate demise of the bmi group which was the lifeblood of MME, it is unlikely that MME will make inroads into the LBA / NCL stronghold.

So, on balance, I personally see why they did what they did with charters, and although it's a shame and the public don't understand the reasons, it makes good business sense.

Now, for a one off charter such as the Lourdes, you can charge a higher fee to the operator and also cover the costs with a bit of overtime so it can be done and at least the airport break even. You can't use overtime when it's a regular thing as people end up with no time off ….

P330

19th May 2014, 19:59

I agree; I would love to know why Santa charters, Lourdes charters and one off holiday flights are allowed and yet a weekly TOM flight isn't. Does anyone know what possible financial reason there would be for this?

E.g. Does the airport charge more for the one-offs that make it viable?

As much as it pains me to say it, I can see some logic to the master plan but this inconsistency has me lost.

Intrigued too on the new route though I am struggling to see what business route would work. The only logic for me would be a flybe bucket and spade route. I am not sure there is enough business travellers wanting to go somewhere new that they can't easily get to.....

P330

19th May 2014, 20:01

Our posts crossed....your logic makes sense; thanks for sharing.

onyxcrowle

19th May 2014, 22:33

Thank you mods (PPrune pop for the new thread).
Now it would be nice to discuss how we move forward for the airport without abusive comments like is this a joke.
A suggestion that for example Ema could be a UK hub airport is no more out there than The Thames estuary or Sites in Oxford or Even Birmingham -.
Anyway back to DTV.
I think we need to start with the likes of links air.
Perhaps The IOM based carrier .
Maybe even Login air.
Flybe coukd operate a E170 to Sen. And arrange a code share with the train operators into London.
Or link LCY.
With Klm and Eastern with Aberdeen perhaps Eastern coukd increase its offerings.
Now that they have the Sumburgh contract , I imagine a Direct Flight from DTV to Sumburgh woukd probably be popular with local industry.
Question though Does Stornoway have similar traffic?.
How about a Manchester shuttle. (Links air).
This was already mooted for Newcastle a while back.
And finally Norwich. Again capitalise on the oil workers flights. But offer seats for regular passengers.
Seeing how Shetland has a lot to offer a tourist.
A niche route like that might spotlight DTV in a good way.
And perhaps increase AMS frequency.
Would JET 2 take a punt?
Paris perhaps? .
Any thoughts on such routes or routes you guys think coukd work? .

Skipness One Echo

19th May 2014, 23:35

Not sure why fire category is an issue as they either have the appliance or not. It then comes to staffing which they can force to go part time as required, and fire fighters do multi task as baggage handlers at other airfields.

It seems to me a failure to "right size" if anything. It's a mad signal to send to a potential customer that you can handle the odd one off but not on a regular basis. Not having go per se, just baffled as to why they don't do what others like PIK had to do to get through the lean years.

Shed-on-a-Pole

19th May 2014, 23:47

Onyx - I know that I have explained this point to you before but you appear to have forgotten again. Airlines exist to make PROFIT for their owners. In order to have a fighting chance of achieving this, each individual aircraft must be deployed such that it can maximise PROFIT. A 'maybe this might work, maybe that might work' strategy is assured financial suicide. Aircraft are hugely expensive assets and that is before operating costs are considered. Small third-level carriers do not have limitless pits of cash to back high-risk punts.

Now look dispassionately at your wishlist and ask yourself two simple questions. Be totally honest. Firstly, would this service make a profit at all? Secondly, if so, does it constitute a superior profit opportunity than deploying the aircraft on any alternative route (between any city-pair)? I suspect that most readers here are capable of discerning the appropriate conclusions despite them not being what they might like them to be.

You may recall that we had a similar discussion on the subject of airline economics some months ago when you were suggesting that Ryanair / Jet2 and the like should establish large-scale operations at DSA and/or HUY. The principles I explained to you back then haven't changed. The assets (aircraft) will gravitate to the most profitable route opportunities. Wherever that takes them. Sentiment and civic pride don't come into the decision. Just profit opportunity. Always profit. Think cash flows, not passenger numbers. Follow the money. That is what any good business will do.

fa2fi

20th May 2014, 09:34

The Manchester shuttle will never work. The train is frequent and 2.5 hours cheap deals can be made.

The Scottish Islands will not work. As someone of that heritage I know very few people who have visited there from the NE. A lot of people bring their cars and explore the area as a whole as let's face it you need a car when you're there and SYY town can be done in a day for a tourist.

Anyway, a flight from MME will not work. Eastern sell connection the SYY via ABZ anyway, I very much doubt there is enough demand to support a dedicated air service. Yes people do visit, but not in great numbers. SYY does not have any links to England, I very much MME will be first on the list! Same with LSI (save for the odd seasonal and irregular Atlantic Airlines to STN).

Some suggestions are rather fanciful I see here. MME has it's niche. It seems to be working for them as it is. They're never going to be a major player. They have a domestic to ABZ which serves the demand and KL allows connections throughout the world. It has all it can feasibly support minus perhaps the non airline to IOM or weekly JER flights.

If there was oil traffic to be capitalised on then T3 would be on the case.

The London links have been discussed to death. They didn't work for BD with their feed via LHR and will never return and LCY won't work

Hipennine

20th May 2014, 12:34

Beafer, the data you have linked to shows only current assets and current liabilities.

The full accounts show that the airport still has net total assets.

Admittedly in the last year reported, a big lump of value has disappeared out of the company's balance sheet, which is not reflected in the trading figures.

If you want to know why, the answer may be in the full accounts deposited at Companies House, which will cost you £1.

MMCMME

20th May 2014, 14:25

As far as I'm aware, all Lourdes passengers are exempt from £6 PFF.

Again, intrigued to find out what the new proposed route could be.

Also noticed that Eastern have been using the Saab a lot more often and even the E145 this morning. Increased passenger numbers maybe or merging half empty flights to keep the costs down?

GrahamK

20th May 2014, 14:46

I do wonder whether the new route could be somewhere like Norwich or Southampton? Can't see it being a European destination to be honest.

fa2fi

20th May 2014, 16:25

SOU has been tried. It didn't work. I don't think the market has changed.

DTVAirport

20th May 2014, 20:50

The Lourdes passengers are exempt from the PFF.

I thought the regular Saabs were down to Jetstream shortages, but apparently it is indeed to accommodate an increase in passenger numbers! :ok:

onyxcrowle

20th May 2014, 22:45

Regards the direct link I mentioned to Lsi .
I though that with all the related industries then there might be scope for similar ops that fly new even to Scatsa are they not done by Eastern? .
Though they wouldn't be classed as a proper route as general public don't use them.
That was what I was getting at but didn't word it right .
But for that matter with the new renewable energy plants being built off the Humber , Huy could just as easily do it.

SWBKCB

4th Jun 2014, 05:45

Didn't read about this diversification opportunity in the Masterplan! :eek:

Cannabis farm found in grounds of Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11251496.Cannabis_farm_found_in_grounds_of_Durham_Tees_Valle y_Airport/)

Fairdealfrank

5th Jun 2014, 00:15

Speaking honestly if you call your airport "Edinburgh", "Newcastle", 'Manchester" etc. then Joe Public knows where it is, call it "Tees Side" Or "Durham Tees Valley Whatever" then, to many, "Where the bl00dy hell is that?"

Would calling it "Darlington Airport" be too much to ask to explain to Joe Public where the airport is actually located?

Middleton St George has a certain ring to it.

Indeed, the clue's in the IATA code (MME), the letters derive from Middlesbrough-Middleton St George, as in the former RAF station name and nearest village.

Middlesbrough-Teesside sounds a reasonable name that sums up the geographical location and the nearest large town.

Durham-Tees Valley is a really bad name: it's pretty meaningless as the airport is nowhere near Durham.

ericlday

5th Jun 2014, 07:42

Its not the name that counts its the quality of the cannabis !!!

StoneyBridge Radar

5th Jun 2014, 09:59

In light of the additional use of land within the perimeter fence, perhaps a more suitable designator would be POT, as everything seems to have gone to pot also. :E

highwideandugly

5th Jun 2014, 12:41

So please guys...can someone do a quick precis update on where we are at with DTV ?

It seems very little news is forthcoming these days.

Flight Calib...still here?

Sycamore...selling parts to anyone (no contracts?)

Housing the latest please?

Master Plan...the latest please ?

Anything else ?

ILS32

5th Jun 2014, 14:18

This thread is going to pot just like the airport.There is nothing of interest to report in regard to aircraft or airport activity.

Robert-Ryan

5th Jun 2014, 22:47

The building used for the cannabis farm was on land not owned by the airport, so a little unfair that the press made it seem like it was on the airport. Bit cheeky nonetheless though, when you have a state of the art helicopter next door with the tech to hunt down such farms! Must have been a case of keep your enemies close!?

davidjohnson6

5th Jun 2014, 22:57

ILS32 - might be worth comparing activity levels between DTV and either Exeter or Norwich airports. DTV gets considerably fewer passengers than either of these other 2 airports yet generates far more posts on PPRuNe. Perhaps a case now that what is ultimately a quiet provincial airport doesn't actually have that much of significance to be said about it ?

ILS32

6th Jun 2014, 07:48

dj6
I understand what you are saying but this thread if not careful will end up being used as a wishlist for posters.

Phileas Fogg

6th Jun 2014, 11:05

this thread if not careful will end up being used as a wishlist for posters

Many of the airport threads are wishlists for posters, two that stand out in particular are Cardiff and Southend, and if "onyxcrowle" is to be listened to ... onyxcrowle seriously needs help with his MME route suggestions, then this thread comes a close third behind the two already mentioned.

sxflyer

6th Jun 2014, 12:46

A bit unfair to include Southend in that list, the only list I can think of is the one I posted and four out of the seven or eight routes quickly came to fruition with the rest having similar profiles. I'm not sure Southend-Groningen is the usual stuff of spotter fantasies

OMGitsDAVE

6th Jun 2014, 16:24

I've been watching this thread for quite a while now, with the odd post or two in DTV 5... but what can I say?

The airport is pretty much ran down, and with Peel turning down Thomson it seems like another nail in the coffin. But, with Eastern and KLM still operating from the airport, it atleast shows some resilience from the year round characters.

I'm not going to go on about a wishlist, nor am I going to post about any timescales for DTV, because I just don't know. From my point of view, I can see where people are coming from in relation to the London flights - but is it really going to work with half-hourly East Coast services from Darlington (with excellent connections to Thornaby & Middlesbrough), or even 4x daily services from Eaglescliffe by Grand Central?

I feel this route is becoming saturated... and any flights to London would just be moving passengers from one mode to another.

Yes, DTV can move forward, and yes, DTV will - but it'll take time and very good planning.

Laasjet

6th Jun 2014, 19:34

I used to be involved in the hotel at which the KLM crew stayed when night stopping. We upgraded the rooms to get the contract.

Even although a Midlander I have, in consequence, a passing interest in developments, or lack of them at the airport.

It occurs to me that a wish list is about the best that can be achieved and the main "interest" is in reading about the political infighting between the Council, Peel and anyone else who has an axe to grind

Is there anywhere on this forum that is less like a living, breathing airport that has a future?

Fairdealfrank

6th Jun 2014, 21:56

I'm not going to go on about a wishlist, nor am I going to post about any timescales for DTV, because I just don't know. From my point of view, I can see where people are coming from in relation to the London flights - but is it really going to work with half-hourly East Coast services from Darlington (with excellent connections to Thornaby & Middlesbrough), or even 4x daily services from Eaglescliffe by Grand Central?

I feel this route is becoming saturated... and any flights to London would just be moving passengers from one mode to another.

Yes, DTV can move forward, and yes, DTV will - but it'll take time and very good planning.

Agreed as far as a generic "London" route is concerned. What is needed, and isn't going to happen, is a LHR-specific route, for a connection to hub (and therefore to the world) and to the booming Thames Valley. This an area that needs serious regeneration and inward investment.

The BD MME-LHR route was supported for over 40 years, through boom and bust. Could its demise may have more to do with asset-stripping of LHR slots by BD's owners rather than the route's sudden lack of viability?

LHR-INV, LHR-JER, and LHR-LBA also ended at the same time. Funny how they all went "belly-up" at the same time.........

SWBKCB

7th Jun 2014, 05:46

Is there anywhere on this forum that is less like a living, breathing airport that has a future?

Manston...

also, how about Coventry, Lydd, Carlisle? I'm struggling now...

The BD MME-LHR route was supported for over 40 years, through boom and bust. Could its demise may have more to do with asset-stripping of LHR slots by BD's owners rather than the route's sudden lack of viability?

Probably a bit of both, but it's history now.

fa2fi

7th Jun 2014, 05:51

In all fairness they were struggling to fill a 50 seater. The route declined for numerous reasons but the demand very definitely shrunk significantly over the years.

Phileas Fogg

7th Jun 2014, 06:19

Is there anywhere on this forum that is less like a living, breathing airport that has a future?

Manston...

also, how about Coventry, Lydd, Carlisle? I'm struggling now...

I'm not struggling,

Plymouth, Penzance, Tresco, Angelsey, Swansea, Ipswich, Cambridge, Oxford, Gloucestershire, Chester/Hawarden, Shoreham, a good percentage of the HIAL airports ... my finger is hurting now :)

onion

8th Jun 2014, 15:17

Fa2fi they weren't struggling to fill a 50 seater at all! The problems on the LHR are well documented and revolved around BMI's desire to use the slots elsewhere.

davidjohnson6

8th Jun 2014, 16:03

A 50 seater at Heathrow is extremely difficult to operate profitably on a consistent basis. Flybe were forced out of Gatwick for operating 78 seaters.

The niche I can think of where this might work on a scheduled non-charter basis is a business-class-only B737 flying 5+ hours. There are perhaps other profitable niches for an aircraft with just 50 seats, but they are very much highly specialised niches.

fa2fi

8th Jun 2014, 17:24

Used it a few times when connecting to UA through LHR and there was never more than 25-30 people on them. And all of the flights I took were mid week flights so I would have expected them to be full particularly on the first departures southbound but they weren't.

That was a very small sample granted, but if there was a way to profitably fly the jets to MME then BD would have continued to serve the route longer. If they decided they can make money elsewhere then fair play to them that is their call.

Just out of interest, where did BD use the slots to instead?

mmeman

12th Jun 2014, 17:48

Looks like the new routes talked about are from Newmarket Holidays - they have tweeted that they are announcing new routes for Summer 2015 from Durham Tees Valley, on the 18th June. Interesting.

highwideandugly

12th Jun 2014, 18:07

Great to hear! I was under the impression it was sooner..but if we are still going in 2015 then great!!!

So sad to see all these mod charters through Newcastle! They were ours!!! See some jumbie next few days....peel wake up!!:ugh:

DTVAirport

12th Jun 2014, 22:25

Are you sure they were ours? Newcastle have always had the odd MoD flight(s) as well. At risk of saying too much, I believe we are going to start accepting them again soon anyway.

SWBKCB

13th Jun 2014, 05:44

https://bdaily.co.uk/industrials/12-06-2014/tour-operator-announced-new-routes-from-durham-tees-valley-airport/

So Jersey BE ok (Q400), Newmarket ok (B737, A320?), MOD ok(?) (various widebodies?) ok but Thomson (B737) not, Balkan Holidays (A320) not?

Sure there's some logic at work here, but can somebody explain (and if it has already been explained on this thread, can they point me to the post?)

deltahotel9

13th Jun 2014, 07:38

The Newmarket flights are usually one offs, so maybe 3 or 4 throughout the season which presumably they can staff up for, while the TOM and BGH flights were regular mulitple flights per week, which must give them more of an issue?

onyxcrowle

16th Jun 2014, 21:34

onyxcrowle

16th Jun 2014, 21:57

Well its a small -very small start.
But a tiny ray of hope.
Perhaps they could hope to get a links air type operation.
And maybe a flybe expansion
Though to what destination I dont know.
I wonder would Stansted be the route to restore the lost link to London so many on here bemoan. The loss of a london link.
And Flybe do they Operate from Southend?. If so Would that be a better London link.?.
And is it LCY that Flybe arecstarting from.
Might there be a slot free for MME to LCY?.
After all a Dash 8 isnt that big.
And what other routes realistically and sticking to smaller Aircraft etc might be Viable?.
Did Southanpton work before. Taking folk to the Cruise liners.
An op Suggested IOM. Perhaps van air could do that and Belfast city.
And Stobart Air to Dubkin.
Maybe a seasonal to Guernsey by Aurigny.
And if we got lucky.
A fly be E170 to Paris Year round. From Flybe.
Mainly all business connections.
Perhaps innsbruck in Winter for the Skiing.
And Geneva.
Howabout A connection to Germany or Copengagen ( Though the Latter didnt do well at HUY. But they like teeside have Ams.
Finally Eastern airways.
What could they offer that could work? .
Norwich?.
Stavanger.
And Glasgow or is that too close.
Or Newquay in summer on a limited schedule.
Thoughts folks ?

One other thing this rule about Thompson et all Does it Include Easyjet?. Or Ryanair?
Id bet Ryanair if they coukd wiork out routes thst would pay shoukd try get a deal where its either free landing fees or peel or local government stump up a subsidy to get the airport running again.
Teeside and back across to the dales toward Aysgarth etc have a fair eadtern eutopesn population.
I hadnt realised that albiet spread out they do have a decent catchment area.
Ryanair coukd operate withiout a single bucket and spade route but bring a few routes in to compete with Wizz at Dsa.
And Easyjet. Again they even fly To Iceland now.
I bet if they diid a few badic business and weekend city breaks and skiing destinations.
It might work.
Anyway excuse my rambling on.
But im interested in its future but notice anytime a route is suggested on this forum its immediately shot down in flames usually with rudeness open hiostility as though suggesting them is a cardinal sin .
No matter what route. And yet redpectfully keep in mind sooner or later like DSA it will.improve again
There are only so many airlines and posdible routes in the UK so those listed above on smaller aircraft ( easyjet and ryanair aside). Ought to be possible.
And nit just DTV but HUY and DSA.
And to those supporters and the abusuve naysayers who enjoy shooting down ideas and speaking to people on hete in a manner they woukd never use fave to face.
The new small charters thst the airport has one.
Maybe thst little acorn from which something new will grow.
Maybe even the buds of the first green shoots of recovery.
I wish all the DTV supporters and management anf friends of DTV all the best.
If anyone from this thread is part of such groups please pm me.

Thank you for reading my usyal epic post guys

highwideandugly

17th Jun 2014, 08:30

Oh for a PC with a spell check!

Onyx....Your ideas are admirable..but please please don't volunteer to write the promotion brochures!!:)

Jamesair

17th Jun 2014, 10:05

MAY pax stats.

Amsterdam.......8111 + 1%
Aberdeen.........3153 + 2%

Monthly pax - 12.1%

Rolling year - 8.2%

INeedTheFull90

17th Jun 2014, 10:54

A rather fanciful range of suggestions but let's gets back to reality. It's a very small start and it is important nobody gets carried away.

There's no way eJ will detract from their NCL base where people are already travelling from Teesside area. Opening a base, or operating W patterns will not stimulate new passengers. It will pick up the same passengers with a vastly increased cost base due to a new base or operating W patterns. Plus the NCL base isn't the strongest and I should imagine they need to protect that. I very much doubt people in Teesside simply avoid going on holiday as there is no flight from their local airport and most would travel to NCL or LBA. Those who would rather not travel will be a tiny minority. LCCs do not have a great track record at MME and that was before management told 737/A32S operators where to go.

Southampton did not work on a 29 seater. That says all you need to know.

Again this London link keeps popping up - it cannot compete with very frequent trains. Yes some will want to work around STN, LTN or SEN but a majority are going to the city centre. If people are connecting to another flight then this is covered by AMS and there is no need for a London hub.

FlyBE don't have a CDG base so if they were to operate flights to MME would involve operating W patterns through CDG from another base which results in increased costs or they will need to open up a base. Given that they just shut NCL a few months back I very much doubt this would happen.

Eastern Europe routes are pretty low yielding. If FR were to operate an MME route it would be a non based aircraft and as soon as the new route subsidy finished FR would pull out and MME would make even bigger losses as they've paid to support the route for some time with no income. I'm not stereotyping but speaking for experience and Eastern Europe destined pax do no spend in the terminal and they do not spend onboard.

I don't think anybody is being rude or shooting you down but your suggestions do make you out to be someone with very little understanding of the business.

onyxcrowle

17th Jun 2014, 15:50

Fair enough but given there are only so many airlines operating in the UK or into it.
And whittle that down to those who operate from smaller airports like MME surley at some point one of them will open a route.
Otherwise the place will shut.
So if all my questions are based on my lack of knowledge perhaps with respect you could list a few routes that are likely and would work.
There must be a point where airports n airlines read forums like this trying to gauge public opinion or needs.
If they are reading this thread which is probably the most negative thread on the whole board.
Theyd probanly not bother offering any routes given all the negativity.
London used to be a route that still pulled in passangers hence it operated for donkeys years.
Not everybody wants to go by train.
And have you considered that Stanstead fir example has plenty of destinations which would be handy for holiday makers who could fly direct to Stanstead and onto their next onward flight.
To my knowledge I dont know of a direct train between Teeside / Darlington and Stanstead or Southend or Lcy.
These days travellers like as less hassle as possible.
So what better than a feeder service to a big airport with a huve selection of onward destinations.
Without two or three train changes and dragging luggage around from train to airport !

ILS32

17th Jun 2014, 16:42

There must be a point where airports n airlines read forums like this trying to gauge public opinion or needs.
onyxcrowle Airlines do not start routes because of reading something in a forum,assuming they look at forums like Pprune.On this thread you probably have no more than 20 regular contributors, not a large number for considering flying a new route.Airlines are set up hopefully to make profits if they don,t they go out of business rather quickly.They will be looking at statistics in regard to size of catchment area,how many airports nearby.Historical passenger figures.They look at the surrounding area social grade and its six groups A, B, C1, C2, D and E.Unemployment rates.average earnings and lots of other data. Also how much will the airport discount their landing fees,use of airport infrastructure etc. If the figures add up then they might consider using the airport.The major problem for DTV is that Peel do not appear to be airline friendly.

TSR2

17th Jun 2014, 18:04

And have you considered that Stanstead fir example has plenty of destinations which would be handy for holiday makers who could fly direct to Stanstead and onto their next onward flight.

Perhaps your next paragraph is the reason.

These days travellers like as less hassle as possible

davidjohnson6

17th Jun 2014, 20:48

Looking at May's provisional stats, the following caught my attention:
- Over the last 12 months, there were more passengers at Kirkwall in the Orkney Islands than at DTV. Sumburgh in Shetland saw considerably more passengers than DTV over the last 12 months
- Over the last 12 months, DTV captured 3.26% of the air travel market to/from NE England. Put another way, for every passenger at DTV, there were over 29 passengers at Newcastle
- Over 2 out of every 3 passengers at DTV are flying to/from Amsterdam with KLM
- In May, the Isles of Scilly saw almost as many passengers as DTV
- There were considerably more pax at DTV in 1972 than in the last 12 months. Edward Heath was PM until 1974. The Vietnam war finished in 1975.

onyxcrowle

18th Jun 2014, 01:35

But you still with respect haven't answered my question.
Ok im not educated about thecairline industry.
And how airlines work.
But all my life ive been fascinated with flight.
I wantrd to be a pilot. But eyesight and maths plus serious health problems let ne down.
But I.am passionate about seeing small airports like Dtv dsa huy prosper.
Not only as they can offer services I wouldvwant to use but they if doing well are a huge benefit to local economic well being. They also provide jobs outwith of the airport for suppliers cleaners n so in.
But my initial question and probably that of others still stands.
Abd ive observed this for a while responses not jyst to my posts but thosecof others who suggest rioutes forvDtv dsa Huy n I note Newquay.
And it seems EVERY route suggestion is shot down ridiculed albiet probably not meant but comes acrisd that way.
Then we get told almost like people with non real valid opinions that whatever route is suggested cannot work wont ever work never did.
Or whatever.
Eg London
Paris
Perhaps innsbruck for skiing .
Or Frankfurt.
Or Even Eastern european destinations.
Dublin was suggested and Belfast again wevare told no they wont ever hapoen or work.
So please would you be so kind as to answer the original question idealky in a list so my clearly sime mind can understand ( as I felt therevwas an implication that I was somewhat less intelligent).
Which apart from my dreadful autocirrect which corrects and changes words as I hit post (thiscus a fault on my phone).
So a list of Routes that you as an obvious expert would reasonably be confindent thatbwoukd bevsble to run from the afore mentioned airports.
What airlines would in your proffesional expert opinion would likely operate them.
And what kind of Aircraft.
That way myself and fellow supporters cease to make fools of ourselves by posting routes we woukd like to see but obviously every one everv suggested coukd never work.
So please if you will can you write that list and why you think they would work.
Thank you.
I.mean no disrespect or sarcasm by this post butvas you clearly knowvso much about it I andvim sure others would appreciate your response.
Thank you.
I wait with baited breath :).

P330

18th Jun 2014, 05:19

The simplest and best response I can give you Oxy is that if a new route would work somewhere, the chances are someone would be running it.

There are many routes, like the ones you suggest, that would take many passengers. A hub flight to London would carry passengers; as would Paris or Frankfurt - so I don't doubt your theory. The problem is I doubt any of the routes could be flown profitably; i.e. either not enough passengers or not enough paying a decent rate to make money for the airline. And there in lies the problem.

You have to come up with a route that could generate enough cash to ensure the flight is profitable...or actually more profitable than if the airline used it elsewhere.

The closest thing in my opinion that would work is a series of bucket & spade routes, but as airlines have consolidated to the bigger airports and as costs have increased, this has become less attractive to the airlines. If I was to be really blue sky - for it to work today I think you would need an airline with an intergrated travel company, that is local and focussed on the area (like Bath Travel and BOH) that has a small, efficient 100 seater plane that could fly to a handful of popular European hotspot holiday destinations. That is the best I can come up with I'm afraid and even this suggestion would be frought with risks and wouldn't be a guaranteed sucess.

Hipennine

18th Jun 2014, 07:55

Well clearly Thomson did think that some routes worked, but the airport disagreed. Catch 22 - end of discussion.

Oh, and when the LHR route was at its prime, the train from Darlo took about 4 hours, and there was about six per day if you were lucky. It's now just over 2 hours and runs every half hour most of the day. Teesside itself now gets direct services to Kings Cross with Grand Central in less than 3 hours, 4 times per day, picking up in Hartlepool, Stockton and Northallerton. BTW, parking at Northallerton is dead cheap and next to the platform.

onyxcrowle

18th Jun 2014, 08:01

Thank you fior the reply. So perhaps the way to test the water is to see if the likes of links air coukd serve either Stanstead , Lcy and Paris (Or perhaps all three with clever planning).
using the same setup as at DSA.
And if they can't almost fill a 19 seater to London or Paris (or Belfast as was implied somewhere else online), Then sadly DTV maybe doomed.
Unless the liocal Community got together and aorport bosses and libbied givernment for a pso operator , ala Dundee into London (Stanstead), just because its not Heathrow so slits wont be an issue, And it has enough onward connections and links to the Captial if really needed.
Out of interest how easy is train trasfer from Stanstead to LHR foe example

cumbrianboy

18th Jun 2014, 08:18

A J31 to Paris? It'd take a week ...

Jamesair

18th Jun 2014, 08:27

Onyxcrowle

Crossing London from anywhere to anywhere is a bit of a nightmare, especially with luggage.

Phileas Fogg

18th Jun 2014, 09:10

Onyx,

You clearly didn't read and/or take note of this previous post:

Oh for a PC with a spell check!

Onyx....Your ideas are admirable..but please please don't volunteer to write the promotion brochures!!

Hipennine

18th Jun 2014, 09:43

" libbied givernment for a pso operator , ala Dundee into London (Stanstead), just because its not Heathrow so slits wont be an issue, And it has enough onward connections and links to the Captial if really needed."

Err, Dundee-London circa 480 miles vs Teesside-London circa 240 miles. Dundee-London only 3 direct trains per day, taking circa 6 hours - its hardly a model comparison to base a PSO bid on.

"Out of interest how easy is train trasfer from Stanstead to LHR foe exampl"

Public transport currently a min of 3 changes, or direct coach. Transport Direct shows both taking just under 2 hours, plus waiting time at STN, plus check-in time at LHR. Compare that with travel time up the road to NCL for a direct LHR connection. Or add in check-in, security etc at MME, then compare with a train every half hour to Kings X - Transport Direct has Darlo to LHR at typically under 3 and a half hours, and that will be quicker once Crossrail is open.

Onyx, it took me less than 5 minutes to gather all the above info from public websites. You don't have to be an aviation expert to do a little research yourself before launching a stream of non-credible suggestions.

INeedTheFull90

18th Jun 2014, 09:49

The routes that I can see working long term are ABZ and AMS. They have stood the test of time and must be protected. Invite certain fly by night carriers in and they could risk these two routes which provide long term revenue whereas you pay a certain 189 seater operator, they p-ss off the other other airlines who leave, then said 189 seater leaves too once you stop paying them to fly there and you're left with nothing.

The occasional charter is the only thing that I see working long term without damaging realtionships with T3/KL. They may not be much but they're MMEs Crown Jewels (well, as an airport anyway).

Aircraft are very valuable assets and they must be placed where they not just make money, but make the most amount of money possible. Look at EZY shutting MAD or EMA, or downsizing one base to grow another. Look a the bases FR open then close or downsize. Any idiot can fill a plane but making money from it is a different game.

P330

18th Jun 2014, 13:52

Oxy - I don't think you're listening to the feedback and reading the historic posts.

Even with a smaller plane flying to the destinations you suggest, you will have major issues to overcome. Using "Links" to these destinations would probably prevent connections unless some code-share was agreed - this would reduce the passenger potential to P2P. Furthermore, you would probably take passengers off the KLM route which would put AMS at risk.

Stansted is a problem. You're not going to get much connecting traffic because the locos generally don't offer connecting tickets. People going to London (central) aren't going to fly to Stansted. So, again - the opportunity is limited.

Every suggestion you're coming up with is riddled with problems that would prevent the route being financially viable. My "blue sky" suggestion with a Flybe type aircraft is the only thing I could see working in a bucket/spade destination set-up - and even then with the right back ground infrastructure - e.g. back-up agent etc. And even if I am right...I just can't see this happening.

Better to face the reality in my opinion...

HeathrowDictator

19th Jun 2014, 12:42

So does anyone know the outcome of the Newmarket Holidays "new route launch" yesterday? I guess it will be more short "one off" trips in 2015 like those seen in the past few years, but considering the launch was at 1530 and 1830 yesterday, I'm surprised the airport haven't issued a press alert since?

-HD-

MMCMME

19th Jun 2014, 17:22

Quick piece in tonights Gazette:

Durham Tees Valley Airport passenger figures soar leading to Newmarket Holidays increasing programme - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/business/business-news/durham-tees-valley-airport-passenger-7293420#.U6Ma0j6co58.facebook)

P330

26th Jun 2014, 11:47

For anyone interested, today is the day of the KLM DC3 visit. 3 flights operating 30 minute scenic tours over Teesside, carrying around 12 people per flight. A good show being put on by the airport by all accounts too.

GrahamK

26th Jun 2014, 12:24

Scenic tour over Teesside? Is there such a thing? := Presumably they''' be going over parts of Yorkshire?

P330

26th Jun 2014, 12:44

Routed over the suburbs (Marton, Nunthorpe, Guisborough), then over to the Coast. Up the coast by Saltburn, Redcar and Hartlepool - then returning.

Phileas Fogg

26th Jun 2014, 12:49

DC3
For anyone interested, today is the day of the KLM DC3 visit. 3 flights operating 30 minute scenic tours over Teesside, carrying around 12 people per flight. A good show being put on by the airport by all accounts too.

Are you quite sure that it is a KLM DC3 and not a KLM DC2?

P330

26th Jun 2014, 13:00

Yes, it was the DC3 Dakota run by a voluntary group in conjunction with KLM. Aircraft is around 70 years old and has military, royal and passenger service backgrounds - including some D Day heroics in WW2.

Do a good search of PH-PBA to see the specific aircraft.

Phileas Fogg

26th Jun 2014, 13:08

Do a good search of PH-PBA to see the specific aircraft.

OK :)

Actually, like most, it's a C-47 rather than a DC-3 but it isn't the DC-2 that I was thinking of.

Expressflight

26th Jun 2014, 15:07

Nearly right, but I know you're a stickler for absolute accuracy..

It's actually now designated as being a DC-3C-S1C3G and appears on the Dutch civil register as such. It did indeed start life as a C47A and quite how it morphed into a DC-3 I don't know.

Jamesair

26th Jun 2014, 16:31

The history of the plane is on the NCL website press release page.

SWBKCB

26th Jun 2014, 17:44

DC-3C was the designation given to civilianized C-47's

highwideandugly

26th Jun 2014, 19:27

I see flybe are starting a city bus stop route between Jersey and Aberdeen.wonder if this is what peel had n mind as a new route/announcement this month?
Doubt they would want to upset eastern...one of only two operators they have.

I think that's shows the problem dtv has...there really are no routes out there of use now?

LCc bucket and spade but peel have laid there cards on the table ,haven't they?

Any news on master plan dates etc?

skyman771

29th Jun 2014, 22:23

Meeting largely irrelevant.
Seems all have jumped to Peel's tune. Unsure why, if capitulation was so easy that the council bothered in first place. Just reflects the lack of power & influence the Parish Council appear to have...............
The masterplan seems a case of "we are going ahead with plans to build 400 houses & tough! if you don't approve" :E

tigertanaka

1st Jul 2014, 13:07

Newmarket holiday routes for 2015 are as follows:

May 30—Naples
June 7—Verona
September 6—Verona
October 3—Venice Cruise
October 6—Madeira

Link (http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/corporate-community/media-centre/press-releases/newmarket-announces-major-expansion-from-durham-tees-valley)

ATNotts

1st Jul 2014, 15:34

The masterplan seems a case of "we are going ahead with plans to build 400 houses & tough! if you don't approve"

Being brutally realistic, what would serve the region best, an under utilised and loss making airfield or 400 houses to help ease the chronic shortage of housing in the UK?

Leaving aside for the moment the imperative of how much the land owner (Peel) could make our of the sale of the land for it's shareholders!

SWBKCB

1st Jul 2014, 15:43

Plenty of places to build houses in the North East - not many places to connect into significant export markets.

But what will best serve the region doesn't really come into the equation.

N707ZS

8th Jul 2014, 08:36

Strange £90m turning up not long before the next election. Road built by Christmas then.

A large amount of money has just been spent on a new 3ft fence, wooden poles with two wires and a barbed wire top ringing the airfields outer edges.

SWBKCB

8th Jul 2014, 17:30

What is pump priming? definition and meaning (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/pump-priming.html)

skyman771

8th Jul 2014, 18:45

....The combined investment package could create up to 1,000 jobs, up to 1,500 additional training places and allow 1,500 homes to be built..........

Well thats it, & we know where many of these will be built & we may even have a nice new access road thrown in...:E

N707ZS

8th Jul 2014, 18:47

Thought that was a plate of peas or beans!:ooh:

SWBKCB

10th Jul 2014, 16:32

Cllr Phil Dennis asked: “Is there a date at which the company would cut its losses?”

Mr Nears replied: “I don’t know. I’m not an accountant."

Comical! Clearly he wouldn't give a date, but should be able to come up with something better than that :yuk:

Robert-Ryan

10th Jul 2014, 20:53

The public comments below the news article explain how it looks to most people.

Yeah but how it looks and how it is are two different things thankfully.

Robert-Ryan

11th Jul 2014, 10:52

Doris has done a damn sight more damage to the airport over the years than what Peel have, two faced :mad:

N707ZS

11th Jul 2014, 13:02

Too right there Robert over the years dear Doris has stopped cargo flights, holiday flights and she and her NIMBYs wrecked the original South side development because she thought there were going to be numerous 747s every day.

Presume the locals won't vote her out in the next elections!

DTVAirport

11th Jul 2014, 14:20

Oh Beafer, if only you knew the truth.

N707ZS

11th Jul 2014, 14:44

You could almost say Doris is responsible for Peel owning the airport.

Northbound A1

12th Jul 2014, 10:49

Nicely put EGHQ :D

Does anyone know how much Peel are being given to build the new road and drain systems on the south side of DTV Airport? The total figure for the gov money was £90m but how much are Peel being gifted?
This sounds a familiar story of Peel dealing with local councils, and house building plans Salfordonline News (http://www.salfordonline.com/localnews_page/50952-council_slammed_for_green_field_sell_off.html)

SALFORD COUNCILLORS CALL IN PEEL HOLDINGS GREEN FIELD SELL OFF IN WALKDEN - Salford Star - with attitude & love xxx (http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2327)
Peel are used tp getting what they want, and know how to work the system for free road money.
Home (http://lgn1403535652.site-fusion.co.uk)

DTV is just a small piece of their UK master building plan. They have no interest in keeping DTV open. They are property developers.
Look at the broader picture DTVAirport.

DTVAirport

12th Jul 2014, 20:05

B:mad:cks Northbound, I am looking at the broader picture

Lancelot37

12th Jul 2014, 22:55

Northbound, I am looking at the broader picture
---------------------------------------------

Which is??????????

skyman771

12th Jul 2014, 23:42

DTVAirport
One may appreciate that "possibly" due to your position then you are not in a position to breach confidences and to an extent I am sure that most posting on this forum accept that.
HOWEVER you continue to utter numerous innuendos that you are never able to back up even in retrospect & unfortunately are mostly b:mad:cks. To an extent I have some sympathy with you & indeed all at DTV however statements such as Oh Beafer, if only you knew the truth. do nothing other than support my observations.
As it happens I believe that Beefer has it more or less spot on. It's all about timing, something that Peel are extremely adept at, unfortunately something that you will eventually find is to your detriment.

DTVAirport

13th Jul 2014, 16:15

Which is??????????
A genuine effort to turn the airport around which is going to very soon start yielding some fruit and an airport that is still going to be here for decades to come contrary to what some might think, and I base that statement on knowledge and not hope.

One may appreciate that "possibly" due to your position then you are not in a position to breach confidences and to an extent I am sure that most posting on this forum accept that.
Spot on, and you've answered your own statement as it's not that I am not able to back up what I say, it's that I'm simply not allowed.

davidjohnson6

13th Jul 2014, 17:02

DTVAirport - with the greatest respect, we've been hearing for years about how the airport will be relaunched and how the airport is in discussions with aviation companies

So far there's been a bit of growth in aircraft scrapping while passenger numbers are at the lowest level for 40 years while Newcastle is in robust health. Until some significant event takes place (actions, not just words) I'm staying with the doubters on this...

DTVAirport

13th Jul 2014, 17:40

DTVAirport - with the greatest respect, we've been hearing for years about how the airport will be relaunched and how the airport is in discussions with aviation companies
Okay granted I can appreciate that, but rest assured things are in the pipeline.

while Newcastle is in robust health
This however I cannot agree with, I flew from there earlier this month and it was dire, I mean really really dire, they've lost a lot of traffic themselves, it's just not as noticeable due to their size to begin with. Also, I wouldn't say an annual loss in excess of £8m adding to debts of £300m+ is healthy, ok a major regional facility like that is never going to go pop and they will theoretically just continually get re-financed, however it is still there, it's a major negative, and as far as debt goes that's not something we have to worry about.

SWBKCB

13th Jul 2014, 19:53

Appreciate that the best form of defence is often attack but care to expand on these comments?

and it was dire, I mean really really dire,

in what way? NCL usually scores well in surveys against other UK airports of its size

they've lost a lot of traffic themselves,

lost some, gained some - but really....

and I don't think somebody in the Peel glasshouse should start throwing financial stones! (and lets face it, unless you're on the inside of both organisations, who really knows?)

skyman771

13th Jul 2014, 19:59

DTVAirport- and it was dire, I mean really really dire, and there you go again, more pro DTV "jingoism" though this time "flipped"!
Say what you mean or simply shut up !!!

DTVAirport

13th Jul 2014, 20:58

I meant in terms of traffic, I will admit the terminal experience was spot on.

highwideandugly

13th Jul 2014, 21:06

Dtv...think your figures a bit out of date also.they were refinanced last year and don't think they are making an operational loss...not like our DIRE lot!

DTVAirport

13th Jul 2014, 21:17

No I did take all that into account

V_J

13th Jul 2014, 21:44

DTV - I've PM'd you.

V_J

N707ZS

14th Jul 2014, 13:22

Said pipeline is not on current airport land. It was on land that they might of used for the alternative access to the South side.

skyman771

14th Jul 2014, 14:03

Just read this latest uttering re APT from the "Airport Boss" Unsure as to where he was speaking from, though some of the associated text is laughable. To be quoting reports that improvements in runway capacity down London could create a demand for up to 4 flights a day by 2050 !!! is pretty much irrelevant, unsubstantiatable, & bizarre, irrespective as to which ever airport one is considering.
Presumably this is the same "Airport Boss" who professed in not being an accountant, to be unable to provide any assurances that with having regard to a “published” £3.6M financial loss was unable to comment as to if / when Peel may cut their losses and close this operation.
All must agree that such losses are unsustainable, though it is as to what to do to address this loss that opinions differ. The only thing that is certain is that which has taken place historically to date.

Unfortunately the action in the deliberate reduction of civil aviation related activities, does not align itself with the necessary reduction in overheads with which to turn the operation around. As such as commented by many, then as an action in itself it is irrational unless considered as part of a much larger scheme.

The irony of all this is that there is (for Peel) indeed a larger scheme, they have presented a version, believe it if you wish, for public consumption. However common financial sense is that if you have a profitable scheme with a non profitable aviation cost centre, then consideration has to be given to the improvements in returns by either closure or disposal. The later would not appear an option if only because of its incompatibility w ith alternate uses for the site as a whole, leaving the more likely closure.
Throwing additional funds into site accessibility make little sense if the perceived objective was to create & assist growth in airline pax no.’s. They do make significant sense if the site is considered for an alternate development use be it residential or commercial. The main winners being Peel themselves, who will see the value of airport land increase dramatically.
As to how all of this will be seen by the current local residents is anyone’s guess but I guess that Doris & the other “nimbys” on the local parish council have little to worry about proposed aviation activity in 2050. You reap what you sow! As they say………..

pzu

15th Jul 2014, 14:44

In some quarters 'Boris' is being suggested as a possible replacement for Hague

Could this mean DTVA being promoted as additional London runway???

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

highwideandugly

18th Jul 2014, 14:01

Nothing unexpected.

Amsterdam down 2% (8303)
Aberdeen up 11% (2995)

airport total down 11.7% month for month and down 8.6% for year
June 12149 total

Movements down 7.7% month for month and down 1.8% total for year.

Looking like 2014 will bring in circa 145,000 passengers? worst since when??

Never mind Peel(and DTV) have a plan.....:D

jetstar.8

18th Jul 2014, 14:16

Worst since
1972 162,000
1971 136,000

Looks like there plans working

DTVAirport

18th Jul 2014, 14:18

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. The plan has not had time to have full effect.

jetstar.8

18th Jul 2014, 15:30

DTVAirport
how long do we have to wait for the plan to work
40+ years to build it up and less than 10 years to bring the airport to it`s knee`s
will it take 40+ years to build it back up or will it become another housing estate :p

skyman771

18th Jul 2014, 18:45

DTVAirport
...The plan has not had time to have full effect.
As I keep pointing out then you continue to say bog all of anything relevant , whilst continuing to take comfort in a plan which you yourself appear unable to substantiate.
Why not simply take a real world view and pick out some specific references that will able you to quote objective data to illustrate and reinforce your points.
Unfortunately judging by what has been uttered by you over the past 12 months then insofar as I am able to recall then you have not actually made a single comment that would suggest that you have a greater clue than "Doris" up the road.
N.b. "I'm party to secret info that I can't divulge" angle, seems to me to be the fantasy of a hopeless under achiever & dreamer!

highwideandugly

18th Jul 2014, 18:54

Sky man. You talk a lot of sense..but give dtv some slack...it's his airport,his dreams and maybe his future.We all have been somewhere similar in the past?

The penny will drop soon enough and it will be a sad day for all of us.

I think we all know there is no future as an international airport...some aviation activity may continue but I fear the future is bricks and motar.

Jamesair

18th Jul 2014, 21:46

It's sad but true, the more houses that are built, the less chance of aircraft noise being tolerated by those living in them. Leading to objections, public inquiries etc, etc., result....restrictions on the operation of the airport.

DTVAirport

18th Jul 2014, 23:53

SWBKCB

19th Jul 2014, 06:05

Let's get some things straight - aviation is one of the slowest-progressing industries in the world, nothing happens overnight not just for DTVA but anywhere, and here you all are expecting a long-term plan which was announced barely a few months ago to be reaping fruit practically overnight?!

The Masterplan - from memory, it was something along the lines of:

Reduce costs by binning 'costly' big airlines like Thomson, Balkan Holidays, MOD charters - still baffling to me, but tick in the box

Encourage business relevant short range regional flights - KLM/Eastern flights have been maintained with some modest growth, but no new developments yet - jury still out

Encourage existing/additional aviation related businesses - Sycamore quiet, no significant growth in other resident co's although Cobham/SERCO state they are happy, Skydive company attracted (how busy are they?), no other additional companies attracted (we'll ignore the exotic agricultural enterprise!)- jury still out

Housing development to fund additional development - still at the planning stage but considerable local opposition although local authorities seem on board. Like others, I don't see how significant housing so near to the terminal goes with continued aviation activity - jury still out

Long term investment in infrastructure to encourage aviation related businesses - after repeated RGF failings, finally obtained some 'pump priming' Govt funds. While I've no problem with such investments, Peel do give the impression it wouldn't be happening without somebody else paying - jury still out

anything I've missed, got wrong?

Mickey Kaye

19th Jul 2014, 07:35

Yes

Driven all visiting General Aviation away by introducing mandatory handling and over bearing security staff.

N707ZS

19th Jul 2014, 08:03

Mickey Kaye watch this space on general aviation.

jetstar.8

19th Jul 2014, 08:21

Skydive only operate at weekends weather permiting
with a turn around of approx 1hr between drops

skyman771

19th Jul 2014, 08:43

SWBKCB - A pretty factual summarization I'd say.
My point is to question, even before any construction takes place, then does the plan actually make financial sense?, given the ongoing lack of progress ref bullet point #2 re the development of civil aviation.
I certainly can see no (aviation related) logic in the premature scaling back of pax services i.e. IT's etc. when there was no pipeline to replace these services, & no "short term plan" other than a reduction of the ground handling services / costs.
At this point then I see nothing positive out that this action other than a small contribution by cost reductions to ongoing losses at best.
What it does not appear to address is the necessary improvements in DTV's "commercial product" to present a convincing argument that increases in short range regional flights are anything more than fantasy.
In summarizing I see that a plan which promotes the development of DTV in any civil aviation (i.e. pax related) as nothing more than a big con. The only reason that it can be portrayed as anything other than nonsense is that the KL service contract has remained in place.
Unfortunately as & when this is up for renewal then as I see it then DTV’s position as an active civil airport will (conveniently for some) be past the point of no return.
Finally I am surprised that some posters (DTVAirport take note!) do not study the fate of Sheffield airport in more depth. There are lessons to be learnt, however then it has always been unclear to me as to what side of the fence these posters interests actually lie :E

Skipness One Echo

19th Jul 2014, 18:03

DTVAirport

19th Jul 2014, 21:20

I'm getting bored of this now, I'm in a no-win situation, all I can do is play the waiting game safe in the knowledge I will one day be proved right.

I'm not a "true believer" as many put it, I just have the benefit of understanding the situation from both an internal and external perspective and can see the obvious. Say what you like, the airport is not going anywhere any time soon.

Jamesair

19th Jul 2014, 22:15

I think we can all agree with your last sentence, in whichever way you interpret it.

N707ZS

20th Jul 2014, 11:25

Looks like we are drifting back to DTVA 5. Any slight bit of positive info is knocked down by the knockers.

ILS32

20th Jul 2014, 11:57

Unfortunately any positive news is usually followed by lots of negative news. The genuine supporters of DTVA and there are a few tend to respond with stock answers.This does not help their cause.The usual responses,I know things but cannot tell you.This is going to happen soon but cannot tell you when.Wait and see progress is being made.It all takes time to implement, action which will turn round the airport and make it viable.Until people can genuinely see an improvement in the airports future,the general opinion is that it has no future which is sad.

Fairdealfrank

20th Jul 2014, 16:32

In some quarters 'Boris' is being suggested as a possible replacement for Hague

Could this mean DTVA being promoted as additional London runway???

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

There's a funny thought!

They would have to stuff Boris in the House of Lords for that to happen.

They ain't going to kick some old duffer "upstairs" and risk a by-election to get Boris back in the Commons, because that would activate the UKIP bandwagon.

Also, a by-election in summer, very low turnout, very unpredictable result. It's too risky, it won't happen.

So how does "Lord Boris of the Thames Estuary in the Counties of Essex and Kent" sound............

New runway plans down south and regional airports.

Comments 'A wing and a prayer. Not living in the real world'.
Peter Nears responds.

Airport plans 'on wing and prayer' (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11338552.Airport_plans___39_on_wing_and_prayer__39_/)
No, it's the opposite! The lack of sufficient links to LHR is contributing to the decline of many "regional" airports, especially on the thinner routes as these have been squeezed out of LHR over the years. This is caused solely by insufficient rwy capacity at LHR. High APD levels do not help, and APD should be scrapped, but this process started before APD.

Well over twenty UK airports were linked to LHR in the early 1990s, now its just seven.

MME is, regretably, a classic case in point: its serious decline started when the BD link to LHR was axed.

skyman771

22nd Jul 2014, 08:57

DTVAirportI'm not a "true believer" as many put it, I just have the benefit of understanding the situation from both an internal and external perspective and can see the obvious. Say what you like, the airport is not going anywhere any time soon.
Well you could actually elaborate on what "the obvious is" as in your mind it would appear to differ from virtually everyone else on this forum.
As a point of assistance then it's not actually the airport that was ever going anywhere, it's actually the aircraft! & if you took off your rose tinted spectacles & took the time to look then you would actually see that they have all now virtually gone along with the services that they used to provide. :ugh::ugh:

SWBKCB

23rd Jul 2014, 15:55

Outright as far as I am aware - they bought out VAS

BasilBush

23rd Jul 2014, 16:22

Yes, Peel bought back Vantage's shareholding in DTV and Doncaster in 2012, and Liverpool in April 2014.

Robert-Ryan

23rd Jul 2014, 20:13

Well you could actually elaborate on what "the obvious is" as in your mind it would appear to differ from virtually everyone else on this forum.
Don't be fooled in to thinking that just because near-enough everyone on this forum thinks the same thing means that the likes of DTVAirport are out-numbered, I just know that most of the 'believers' don't take forums such as these and similar social media pages etc seriously and just laugh them off as ridiculous. Can't say I blame them either, the only reason I'm here is because despite my occasional criticising of Peel, I do feel that someone should fight the airports corner.

SWBKCB

23rd Jul 2014, 20:37

All this talk of 'believers' and 'non-believers' is a bit playground.

I'm just looking at the published plans and trying to make sense of them - the two things that look odd to me are the decision to dump TOM and BGH, and then the plan to build houses with in yards of an active airport. The other main thrust of the strategy - which seems to be diversification into related aviation activity - has some merit, but as with all these things, the writers can't resist pushing it and dangling a few shiny beads to impress the natives.

A bit more explanation rather than the 'I know but can't tell' approach might help to build a more positive atmosphere and dispel some of the suspicion about the owners motives.

AndyH52

23rd Jul 2014, 21:04

The houses issue is being blown out of all proportion in this thread. I was at Farnborough this last weekend and guess what, a large development of executive flats and houses is being built adjacent to the airfield entrance. Is anyone foretelling of mass uprisings of new residents at FAB insisting the airfield be closed or operations restricted? I don't think so.

People buying a new build house near an airport do so in the full knowledge they are buying a house next to an airport. Any argument they have in future against the operation of that airport is therefore weakened. If it realises a land value for Peel that can be reinvested to improve the airport what's the problem...

DTVAirport

23rd Jul 2014, 21:42

AndyH52 - Well said!

I'm struggling to understand why people can't grasp why myself and others can't elaborate on things that Peel have in the pipeline for DTVA? It's commercially sensitive, simple as.

Nevertheless, I'm going to try my best to expand; I can immediately think of seven items I've been made aware of over recent weeks, all positive things. Of these seven:

*Four are happening imminently
*Of these four, two maybe three, will be announced in press releases, the rest will simply just go ahead.
*One no-one on here will give a :mad: about
*Of the remaining three items, one is medium-term and by no means guaranteed, one is long-term, and one is very long-term and thus may never happen

I doubt this will satisfy most but there you go anyway.

Robert-Ryan

23rd Jul 2014, 21:48

SWBKCB - I agree. I came across these forums the other day that may be able to help clarify: (apologies if I'm inadvertently breaking any advertising rules here)

dtvafacts dot freeforums dot org

skyman771

23rd Jul 2014, 23:32

AndyH52
The houses issue is being blown out of all proportion in this thread
I beg to disagree, it never was just about houses, though all your comments do is actually draw focus to this issue by eluding to alternate and completely irrelevant developments elsewhere.
This thread's focus has always been about commercial aviation and related subjects at DTVA / MME. As it appears to me, and I'm quite entitled to my opinion as are all others, then these activities are under threat as a result of the ongoing & "possibly" devious activities of a certain property company who may have a more sinister long term and as yet undisclosed "Plan B" .
However to put a balance on this, then I may be completey wrong & in which case I apologise. However as many have said before & which I also endorse then to me the the plans for the future of the aviation related activites as disclosed, make little sense, though unfortunately the potential asset value of the land offers a much greater source of revenue to an ultimate owner whose principal activity is the development of land.:suspect:
Some would say "wake up and smell the coffee !"

davidjohnson6

24th Jul 2014, 00:49

DTVAirport - we've been hearing for years that major new plans for DTV will be announced shortly.

Building houses on land part of a quiet airport is little more than a form of asset stripping.
Aircraft scrapping is interesting but substantially about renting out some of the existing land for use as a factory / recycling plant - landing fees are likely to be minimal in comparison.
Caravan storage is just a way of renting out some brownfield land.

We're left with very very little that has come anywhere near to fruition that has been announced in the last few years, while passenger and cargo throughput has fallen off a cliff. I can think of 4 commercial passenger airports in England that have either been redeveloped or will be shortly for alternate non-aviation use since 2000. There would need to be a very compelling set of actions from DTV's management with sizeable amounts of Peel's cash being invested in a long-term project to explain why DTV does not become number 5.

lplsprog

24th Jul 2014, 07:21

Beefer Peel brought LPL back into the their ownership as said in 2014, however it is not part of Peel Airports as it used to be, it is now a company on its own.

Ian Brooks

24th Jul 2014, 11:07

I don`t think LPL is making money and infact it is losing and the pax figures are dropping at quite an alarming rate as are all Peels airports

Ian

Shed-on-a-Pole

24th Jul 2014, 12:16

I believe that Peel are also the owners of Manchester City Airport (Barton).

BasilBush

24th Jul 2014, 14:44

Beafer - I wouldn't read anything too devious into the company structure. Each of the three airports is a separate company in its own right. After the deal with Vantage, all three were owned by a holding company called Vantage Airports Ltd, which was in turn owned 65% by Vantage and 35% by Peel. Back in 2012 Peel bought Vantage Airports Ltd's shares in DTV and Doncaster, giving them 100% ownership of those two airports. Earlier this year, Peel bought out Vantage's 65% stake in Vantage Airports Ltd, giving Peel 100% ownership of Liverpool.

So now each airport is a separate company, wholly owned by Peel.

Regarding Liverpool's financial health, I believe it is profitable at the operating level, but that its large debts lead to overall losses. There was a breach of the debt covenants earlier this year, which ultimately led to Peel taking overall control. Presumably Peel's deep pockets have resolved the debt crisis.

Beafer

24th Jul 2014, 19:14

Thanks for the answers, it does make one wonder why Vantage become involved at all?
Maybe they were a smoke screen to blur the figures with 35% this and 50% that?
Did Vantage profit from their dalliance in the Peel Airports and the share sales?

BasilBush

24th Jul 2014, 19:22

Vantage will have lost out badly, especially from their forced withdrawal from Liverpool (which would have accounted for the vast bulk of their initial investment). Their problem was that their backers, Citi Infrastructure Investors, had a change in strategy and decided to withdraw from a lot of their investments, including Vantage. When Liverpool breached its debt covenants earlier in the year, the banks would have required the shareholders to put in more cash to pay down at least some of the debt (technically the banks could have called in the entire debt for immediate repayment). With Citi having lost interest, Vantage had no access to funds and so were at the mercy of Peel. Peel will have 'negotiated' with Vantage to buy their shares back, I imagine for a fraction of their original value. Exit a bunch of embarrassed Canadians, who had originally bought the airports on an inflated valuation.

See http://www.richmond-news.com/news/yvr-loses-50-million-on-investment-1.1003387

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1344137/vancouver-airport-authority-s-subsidiary-exits-investment-in-uk-airport

davidjohnson6

26th Jul 2014, 19:01

DTV has been storing caravans for some time now - there are plenty on site now.
As storage has been taking place for so long, could someone explain why there is no barrier or fence between caravans and the rest of the car park ? Seems odd to me that people would store high value items in a relatively insecure manner - or that the company insuring Peel's liability against theft would accept this.

Separately all seemed rather sad seeing the terminal effectively closed down at 4:15 pm on a Saturday afternoon

BasilBush

26th Jul 2014, 19:45

The Citi/Vantage split was not related to any specific concerns with the airport investments but rather reflected a much broader change of strategy. The airports were a tiny part of Citi's troubled infrastructure division.

See Citigroup Seeks to Exit Alternative Investments Unit - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324769704579010253060257042)

The airport j-v with Peel was just a victim of this wider change of strategy, rather than the cause of it.

The only other thing I would say on 003 1/2's interesting contribution is that Liverpool did have a positive Ebitda when it was sold to the j-v, so it was reasonable to attribute a decent value to it. The same couldn't be said of DTV and Doncaster, however, which presumably dragged down the overall value of the group of airports.

SWBKCB

27th Jul 2014, 06:14

Separately all seemed rather sad seeing the terminal effectively closed down at 4:15 pm on a Saturday afternoon

Should have been bustling with the weekly Jersey!

highwideandugly

27th Jul 2014, 11:30

Interesting times...see earlier posts...Bristol ,pik ,Manston etc. could be some major movement in ownershps ..where do we stand..,are we safe??? DTVmovements..any more inside gen...or is this what you have really been hinting at?

DTVAirport

27th Jul 2014, 17:20

highwideandugly - not sure I follow? If you're hinting at a change of ownership I wouldn't be privy to that kind of information, but that being said, as the deal with the Canadians proved, Peel wouldn't be able to keep something on that scale under wraps and I've heard nothing, pretty sure Peel have no plans to leave, if they did, I don't think they would be working on some of the projects that they're currently involved in.

P330

29th Jul 2014, 11:58

Beafer...any chance of a new line of attack from you please? The last thread was shut down - does this thread have to follow the same route?

I'm not interested in ownership, Peel's balance sheets or Auntie Doris. I'm interested in the future of the airport and its routes - actually the title of this forum.....

skyman771

29th Jul 2014, 13:04

P330 In this instance then I am in complete agreement with you.
It is achieving nothing in quoting from a "rag" in respect of whose contributors are by their own admission totally out of their depth. Only corporate, legal and financial experts could begin to make sense of the whole."
There are actually quite a lot of financial experts about, though one suspects have better things to do with their free time.
One final note, then there are clearly many bitter individuals outside of DTVA who have come off second best in their dealings with "Peel", who see sensationalism in "nit picking" as a tool to attract others to their cause.
From my point then there is little to suggest from the DTVA perspective that their sentiments are not well founded, though as said then this is not a viable "tack" for this thread to go down.
It takes "two to Tango" & given that "Peel" are one, then perhaps looking a bit closer to home may be the way to seek comfort (or otherwise) than winging on about the activities of a mega organisation.... at least on this thread !

P330

29th Jul 2014, 14:13

Thanks Skyman....here here!

Its been interesting watching this thread from the side lines these last couple of weeks. I'm confident there are plans in the pipeline that will secure the current airport traffic and build on it, as DTV Airport has suggested.

The problem for the public, or a forum like this is, it is now a case of "the boy who cried wolf". No-one is going to believe any positive news about the future (based on internet postings and management PR) until the actions start to happen and the benefits are realised. No benefit in criticising those that are more certain about the future than others; let's simply wait and see what happens. There are two realities right now:

There are credible plans in place to sustain the airport.
Peel have little or no track record on delivery on such plans for MME.
Either Peel's success rate will continue or they will finally deliver on a project that sustains (or even grows) an airport for the future. One thing I am certain of is that local management believe in the plans, are working hard on them and aim to deliver them. Whether they are competent to do that and whether this puiblic image counters a contradictory, more clandestine motive elsewhere in the Peel group is another debate.

Lancelot37

29th Jul 2014, 14:56

Isn't what Beafer says of interest? If there's no money in the pot how do you develop? Or have you got some ideas?

DTVAirport

29th Jul 2014, 15:26

Could this lack of cash be the real reason why they didn’t invest the promised £20m into DTV?
But they did, because whether you like it or not (and I don't) absorbing annual losses is classed as investment. You should know that given it's been discussed to death on here and yet again you're raising the same issues over and over despite conclusive answers being given in the past. It's also on the DTVA Facts forum that Robert Ryan mentioned a few days ago.

If there's no money in the pot how do you develop?
Well this is where the housing - on land unsuitable for aviation use - comes in to play, this will raise the finance necessary.

RobT100

29th Jul 2014, 19:25

Why don't they just have done with airport, get it closed and get this ridiculous thread off this forum

skyman771

29th Jul 2014, 19:33

absorbing annual losses is classed as investment.
Struggling with this !:=

DTVAirport

29th Jul 2014, 19:38

Me too skyman, but unfortunately that seems to be the norm, in any industry.

highwideandugly

31st Jul 2014, 19:19

So there's a massive decline so what?! Doesn't mean we won't one day bounce back! I can't share what I know because I'm told it's commercially sensitive but in the same breath it's nice to let people know that there may well be light at the end of the tunnel.

4th October. 2012. Sorry DTV. Was looking back at threads for something and found this posted by you.

So nothing really has changed has it..maybe plenty of winks and nudges and caravans..but nothing of any aviation substance.

As always more questions than answers but....why are Sycamore so quiet,why are Cobham still here and finally when are the first house bricks to be laid?

DTVAirport

31st Jul 2014, 21:43

Highwide, the bouncing back bit still applies, and I'm sure if I looked back I could quite easily name two or three things from that time period that were confidential but ultimately happened, but I'm just back home from a pretty :mad: eleven hour shift so frankly, I can't be a:mad:d

DTVAirport

1st Aug 2014, 00:40

Beafer, you're so full of :mad:

And to clarify, I don't work at DTVA, just in case my name confuses anyone in to thinking otherwise. My username is the name of an old fansite I used to run many years ago prior to the DTV Movements website being founded.

onyxcrowle

1st Aug 2014, 01:59

Any actual route news or is it getting worse

skyman771

1st Aug 2014, 23:45

4th October. 2012. Sorry DTV. Was looking back at threads for something and found this posted by you.
Guess you can say that a certain person:O "has been hung by his own petard"

DTVAirport

2nd Aug 2014, 14:37

Not at all Skyman, the reply I gave highwide applies to your comment as well

PPRuNe Pop

2nd Aug 2014, 21:10

I have been watching this thread and reminded myself that I had to stop a whole lot of niggling, backbiting, abuse and generally running a race to see who could be insulted first. It has started again and I note that there are one or two of the same antagonists who are heading it.

Well, you carry on with your silly nonsense wherever you like but it is not going to be here. Get back on topic do NOT name names, Do NOT insult or abuse or this thread will be gone along with at least four people who seem only hare to cause trouble and cannot help themselves doing it.

Got the point?

PPP

oldart

3rd Aug 2014, 09:47

Here, here to the Moderator!
No matter which airport you live near, I thought the idea was to support it.
Like myself, many people have not posted, just in case they received abuse or any other insult.
MME is going through bad times at the moment, it is too easy to blame someone or some people for the decline, unfortunately it will be harder to cure the problem. I wish I knew how to put matters right, but I do not and certainly do not have the know how to do it.

onyxcrowle

4th Aug 2014, 03:22

I avoid the thread wherr possible as so bad and mesningless and full of bitterness and unrelated comments I dont bother posting.
Yet ironically technically its now my local airport.
Im hoping links air starr here too.
More Flybe and a route to Lcy might revive it.
Howabout a niche market destination like the Faroe Islands twice a week.
They haveclinks to Copenhagen. But they are Stunning an def not a bucket and spade rou5.
Atlantic must have freed some Avros up.
Or theres always Iceland.
Again the odd flight therr another niche destination.
Or Stavanger seems a popular route.
And at the Risk of being a stuck record.
A three ot fourctimes weekly two maybe fourvtimes daily to Sumburgh (all tge cross over with teeside industry plus the oil platforms in Shetland ).
Maybe Eastern aurways can pick that up and also offer direct Scatsa flights

highwideandugly

4th Aug 2014, 07:32

:ugh: Spell checker broke again?

All been covered...when the owner isn't interested why should the airlines be?

No-More-Bullschit

4th Aug 2014, 11:33

The owners are more than interested, the problem is a lack of airlines to operate routes, when you deduct those that are already in bed with NCL and/or LBA who's left???

fa2fi

4th Aug 2014, 17:11

Onxycrowle: I'm sure you've just copied and pasted a post you made a few months back with equally bizarre suggestions.

Iceland: covered from Scotland and Manchester.

Faroes: I think last time you were suggesting Stornoway. Too niche. Too little tourism. Ask your average Teessider where the Faroes are, and they will most likely point to Egypt. Atlantic serve STN (London market) and not too frequently either I think the chances of MME are slim to none.

Stavanger: served off and on for as long as can remember from NCL. If someone wants to fly from MME they can connect in ABZ.

LCY: won't work. Too much competition from the upto half hourly London rail service. It's a costly place to operate into. Yes, people could connect onwards, but AMS has connections.

You have to ask yourself (of any destination) if it isn't covered by other nearby airports that have larger catchment areas and much bigger population centres then why would anyone do it from MME?

My feeling is that until it closes MME has all it needs. It has the oil run up to Aberdeen, and has connections to most of the world via AMS. The bucket and spade market are well covered by NCL and LBA. It has all that it needs. It's not going to change save for the odd random small charter flight.

I have very fond memories of the place and want it to succeed but I, like everyone else, need to be realistic.

highwideandugly

12th Aug 2014, 19:09

Come on guys...4 th August since last post.

I know where the mod is coming from but surely a little but of banter is acceptable?

At the end of the day it shows nothing is happening at the drome!!! So sad.

I asked a couple of genuine questions recently.

Why is Sycamore so quiet and are cobhamsCalibration) Still leaving? Any ideas??
Finally. Dtv airport...anything of interest???

davidjohnson6

12th Aug 2014, 19:27

highwide - it's the middle of August and large numbers of office workers (ie those who make decisions at a high level in companies including airlines) are on holiday. You may notice that the last 2 weeks on this forum have been quiet with little of any substance being released that could not wait until September (except Alitalia). Summer 2015 schedules will start to be announced in a serious way in about 3 weeks time when everyone is back from the beach.

As for DTV, in itself a very quiet airport, I can see very little reason as to why it should have anything newsworthy until September at the earliest.

Just enjoy the sunshine and come back in a few weeks time... !

DTVAirport

12th Aug 2014, 21:44

Highwide, I think the reason the thread is so quiet is because it was often only the trouble makers who liked to stir the pot, and looking at their profiles, it would appear they've all been banned (and rightly so IMO).

The Lanc visit is taking up everyone's time at the moment including mine with everything else put on hold for now.

The Calibration lot are still moving out but I'm not sure when exactly, reading between the lines, most if not all of the DTVA-based staff refused to move to Bournemouth so they're having to take the time to train up new staff and crews from scratch, could be wrong mind.

As for Sycamore, very quiet indeed, I'm getting a little worried, I'm sure they'll pull something out of the hat before much longer.

highwideandugly

13th Aug 2014, 07:16

Thanks for that guys.

Yes the Lancaster visit should be memorable!!

Sycamore has a lot of competition...aeroplanes are being dismantled all over the place it seems!!

I think most of the summer brochures are out for 2015. So we may have to wait until 2016 for any policy changes by peel and the airlines?

One final thing. Where exactly are we with the housing plans?

Robert-Ryan

13th Aug 2014, 19:06

I too am worried about Sycamore, there are nine companies involved in aircraft recycling in the UK, these being:

Aircraft Recycling Ltd [KLM UK Engineering] (Norwich) **
Air Salvage International (Kemble)
Apple Aviation (Newquay) **
ATC Lasham (Lasham)
Caledonian Aviation (Prestwick) **
eCube Solutions LLP (St Athan) **
GJD Services (Bruntingthorpe) **
Sycamore Aviation (Durham Tees Valley)
United Recovery & Recycling (Manston) **

Those marked ** set-up after or at the same time as Sycamore (all bar two - GJD Services may have been before) and sadly for us every single damn one of them boasts better facilities. Not sure if the Manston outfit are still trading given that airports closure.

I hope they get something soon as for us they're the goose that lays the golden egg, but as you can see, it's become a very overcrowded market in the last two years. No activity whatsoever around the hangar of late.

highwideandugly

13th Aug 2014, 19:24

Yes I thought it strange when they started auctioning off bits last month...no contracts?(they even advertised on here!!):confused:

N707ZS

13th Aug 2014, 21:11

GJD has no hangar, Prestwick never started not sure about Norwich either. One of the main factors is not many aircraft are up for scrapping at the moment.
GJD took a 747 yesterday so lets hope by the end of the summer season frames will be due for scrapping.

highwideandugly

15th Aug 2014, 18:04

Terrible figures for July.Pax down 16% on last July ?Aberdeen slightly up Amsterdam down.
I know we say this every month but how long before peel say enough is enough?

One bit of good news we managed to stay ahead of the Scilly isles and Stornoway!!:D

highwideandugly

15th Aug 2014, 18:18

Another telling figure is that it equates to only 194 passengers per day leaving the airport...oh well that's £1161. Per day from the passenger tax!:{

SWBKCB

15th Aug 2014, 20:09

Also been a number of CityJet/VLM charters in the last week or so - anybody know what they are doing?

Robert-Ryan

16th Aug 2014, 00:03

How much was KLM down by? June they were down 2%, they were up five consecutive months prior to that so providing it can be 'nipped in the bud' surely we can take a little hit?

Load factors are much better than the back end of last year.

highwideandugly

16th Aug 2014, 07:27

July KLM down 3% (for interest NCL up 4%)

horatio_b

21st Aug 2014, 19:38

Time for a change?

Commercial director leaves Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11422255.Commercial_director_leaves_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airpo rt/)

SWBKCB

21st Aug 2014, 21:56

The public? one person who repeatedly bangs a familiar drum... :suspect:

mcginty1

2nd Sep 2014, 19:49

A piece on Simon Mayos drivetime today gives mention to Humberside Teesside and Inverness. Airports that have long been forgotten when it comes to links to the capital. The guest was Lawrie Price an 'Aviation expert', who reckons it will be 2030 or 3 succesive governments before a decision is made on air expansion in London. Should dovetail nicely into Peels Masterplan.
We should be on Mars by then!

apaul

3rd Sep 2014, 09:37

Inverness has flights to two London airports going up to three this winter, just not Heathrow anymore.

fa2fi

3rd Sep 2014, 09:56

Plus INV needs a London services given the options are a 12+ hour bus ride or 8+ hour train ride. A London service would bring nothing to MME that can't be done via AMS. A London service for those terminating in London is nonsensical given the quick and regular train service.

SWBKCB

4th Sep 2014, 05:46

Airport sees passenger numbers drop (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11448444.Airport_sees_passenger_numbers_drop/?ref=var_0)

N707ZS

4th Sep 2014, 06:28

The BA 787 looked nice on the approach yesterday presume it will be back if they need somewhere quiet for a bit more training.

highwideandugly

4th Sep 2014, 07:50

Yes great sight to see a large aeroplane again!! Just a thought...is the correct fire cover in place..I seem to remember we are only covered for the jet streams and fokkers? Maybe it doesn't apply to training???

DTVAirport

4th Sep 2014, 10:50

I stand to be corrected but my understanding is crews on larger types can waiver the fire category providing there are no pax on board.

N707ZS

9th Sep 2014, 09:15

Hangar 4 area already has planning for industrial use.

davidjohnson6

10th Sep 2014, 00:02

The last Flybe Jersey flight for 2014 is next Saturday, 13th of September
In the absence of a summer 2015 timetable on the Flybe website, does anyone know whether Flybe will return to DTV for S15 ?

colinhunn

10th Sep 2014, 11:49

From the lack of movements, assume this company have ceased operations. Can somebody confirm either way please? Thank you.

tigertanaka

11th Sep 2014, 13:27

Went from MME yesterday for the first time in about 6 months. The new business lounge is clean, simple and was fairly full for an early morning.

The cafe has relocated next door into the area of the old business lounge. This is a much more inviting place than the departure area but no one was sat in it. Maybe some directional signage to let people know about the new cafe would drag some passengers into the area.

SWBKCB

11th Sep 2014, 16:14

Didn't know about this, so good to hear something positive, helps to generate a bit of momentum - airport should be giving the local press a bit of good news.

Jamesair

11th Sep 2014, 16:22

The Sycamore website still seems to be up and running but a movement website shows that nothing has happened since April 14.

P330

11th Sep 2014, 20:11

I agree, the new cafe is tidy but is well hidden away. Also some confusion as the entrance is via the business lounge so invariably you get people wondering from one to the other unsure what is going on.

Sat on the tarmac the other morning, delayed half an hour because, according to the pilot, "a member of the fire crew had slept in and we couldn't leave until everyone had arrived for work". Had many delays in my life but never because a fireman had slept in.

Noticed also the lack of activity at Sycamore. Hopefully a blip?

Robert-Ryan

11th Sep 2014, 20:22

They are still trading, but sadly the airport have had to place a repossession notice on their hangar due to unpaid bills.

I heard somewhere they've potentially got a couple of aircraft in the pipeline for around October time, and they are hoping to find enough cash to carry on trading until then, but alas it sounds to me like they are clutching at straws.

A great shame as they didn't deserve this, they have had A LOT of bad luck during their short existence. Always seems to happen to the best ones.

SWBKCB

11th Sep 2014, 22:02

Disappointing - also, weren't they one of the key potential clients for the aviation related industries part of the Masterplan?

DTVAirport

11th Sep 2014, 22:54

I was hoping for their sake it would be kept off here, never mind.

SWBKCB - until the worst happens - IF the worst happens - they still are.

bad bear

12th Sep 2014, 10:28

Has the airport really reduced to 3 ABZ and 3 AMS rotations and only 200 departing passengers per day? How did the skydiving operation work out, did it fit in smoothly with the scheduled flights?

bb

DTVAirport

12th Sep 2014, 12:27

Perhaps it's not quite as bad as feared?

Aircraft firm's North-East commitment (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11469506.Aircraft_firm's_North-East_commitment/)

MMCMME

12th Sep 2014, 17:38

Good and bad news for them I guess :/

Fingers crossed they win a couple of bids and we see something arriving shortly!

highwideandugly

12th Sep 2014, 18:27

I know a little in the future but should we be worried about the klm new policies?

While Transavia would be very welcome...I can't see 3 B737 800 aircraft a day on the service

At best two a day. Even then. A massive increase in available seats? Thinking again...maybe we should be concerned?????:confused:

N707ZS

12th Sep 2014, 19:50

Has a post been deleted?

If not can you explain what you are on about highwideandugly? What has Transavia got to do with the Teesside flight.

SWBKCB

12th Sep 2014, 20:53

KLM/Air France are looking to transfer a lot of short haul to Transavia who they aim to convert into a LCC to compete with EZY and RYR. From the reports I've read it isn't clear if it includes the regional routes operated by Cityhopper, or is just the mainline shorthaul flights.

N707ZS

12th Sep 2014, 21:20

Many thanks SWBKCB.

highwideandugly

17th Sep 2014, 11:48

Well ,looks like sycamore are in financial difficulties as we all thought.latest press release(link on dtv movements) seems to be saying as much.

So that's part of peels master plan up in smoke?

Look forward to next revelation...cynical. Me??...::8

INeedTheFull90

17th Sep 2014, 11:53

Well of course they are. Any time any one released some statement about how they're 'committed' to a place usually means the exact opposite.

MMCMME

17th Sep 2014, 16:37

New cafe/lounge has just opened:

http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/shopping-eating-drinking/swissport-lounge-cafe

Robert-Ryan

17th Sep 2014, 20:23

Beafer, stop :mad:-stirring, Thomson and Sycamore are two completely different scenarios. If you ran a business would you allow a client to continue to use your product, or in this case facility, if they weren't paying their bills??

All it would take is for Sycamore to win one aircraft contract and problem solved (in the short-term at least).

SWBKCB

17th Sep 2014, 20:34

Actually, Beafer does almost make a fair point. The masterplan, as repeated by the DTVA spokesman below, sets great store in the dismantling etc industry - this show it to be a somewhat precarious, cyclical business. How does that look if you're trying to attract significant infrastructure investments?

If I didn't have any other potential revenue stream from that building and I was looking to encourage that client to grow to support my own expansion plans, I probably would let them use it until it became clear I was chucking good money after bad.

DTVAirport

17th Sep 2014, 22:19

I think both Beafer and Robert make valid points, but one thing I've learnt over the last couple of years is, as outsiders looking in, you never see the full picture and there will be factors we're unaware of.

Perhaps it's a case of they've recently had their fingers burnt with a certain other firm so they're not taking any chances? Who knows.

Lancelot37

17th Sep 2014, 22:46

Sycamore report that they have several million pounds worth of recovered equipment stored awaiting buyers. It's not cash in hand, but they are a new company finding their way in a competitive world. Why don't Peel give them a chance?

They have nothing to loose and have the option of an empty hanger or the chance that Sycamore will go from strength to strength in just a few years when the scrapping industry picks up again. It's a cyclic time, with ups and downs in the industry.

N707ZS

17th Sep 2014, 22:48

The hangar still holds a quantity of valuable items.

davidjohnson6

18th Sep 2014, 01:04

As far as I can tell, Sycamore is acting as a tenant, paying rent to landlord DTV airport in return for use of a hangar.
It would seem that the tenant has been either unable or unwilling to pay the rent in full and on time.

Initially one might expect a landlord to be a bit forgiving - all businesses go through a bad month now and again and one sometimes has to be a bit flexible on things. If this happens on a regular basis, a landlord will typically give an ultimatum to the tenant - pay up on time in full, or I will evict you.

A landlord who continually forgives regular underpayment or late payment of rent without enforcing a penalty is in effect telling not just the tenant in question, but all other tenant of that landlord (eg companies renting retail units in the terminal) that it's not necessary to pay the rent each month because nothing bad will ever happen.

paarmo

18th Sep 2014, 22:43

Dropped off a relative for the KLM flight and picked up later last week. It was like the good old days of flying. Dropped off outside of departures and picked up outside of arrivals. 20yard walk at both. Free parking. 14mins from switch off engines to sitting in car at arrivals which included hold baggage. 1 minute later exited car park. Bliss.
What a shame it's all going down the pan.

skyman771

19th Sep 2014, 12:52

Dropped off a relative for the KLM flight and picked up later last week. It was like the good old days of flying..........

Yes just like Croydon in the 1930's !;)

And you see this as progress ?

skyman771

19th Sep 2014, 13:18

Fair bit of discussion on this "locking out" business. To add a few points to this matter then, I fear the situation is far more serious than :-
All it would take is for Sycamore to win one aircraft contract and problem solved (in the short-term at least).
Apart from the fact that the matter is obviously one of liquidity, & there clearly isn't any cash to pay creditors, there is the matter of raising additional finance...then there are more fundamental issues..
The scenario suggests that Sycamore were in arrears in their rent payments to landlord Peel. However many Peel bashers out there, then ironically it is quite likely that their decision to "Lock out" Sycamore was forced upon them. I would suggest that it is quite likely that Sycamore had another creditor with whom they were in default, and that upon being unpaid took legal action, and a bailiff with walk in possession was appointed to seize goods to the value of their debt. Such a situation would likely initiate a scenario where the landlords Peel were forced to act to protect their own position.
Seems to suggest that Sycamore are likely to go into administration, or in the event of lack of new investment / sale then it's possibly liquidation.:(

highwideandugly

19th Sep 2014, 18:40

Not sure where these fit in to the peel master plan anymore???

Not good.

Total down -11.5%. At only 12402 for the month. (Running total. 144613 year on year-11.5%)

Aberdeen-3%. (Ncl. Up. 9%)

Amsterdam. -3%. (Ncl. Up 9%)

Movements also down.

Someone please explain which direction we are going???:confused::confused:

VentureGo

20th Sep 2014, 09:41

Someone please explain which direction we are going???

From International Airport to small Aerodrome

The term airport may imply a certain stature (having satisfied certain certification criteria or regulatory requirements) that an aerodrome may not have achieved. That is to say, all airports are aerodromes, but not all aerodromes are airports. (from "Wiki" - Aerodromes definition v Airport)

onyxcrowle

21st Sep 2014, 04:48

When will it close The only selfish hope is if they close Peel persuade Eastern and KLM to transfer ops like for like down to DSA
They'd certainly fill those flights there

N707ZS

21st Sep 2014, 06:54

More horse manure from the usual suspects.

The airport had most stands full yesterday with business jets which must of made a fair bit of money, they actually pay to land at the airport not like other local airports who have to pay airlines to come and land. Take a look at the DTV movements site.

highwideandugly

21st Sep 2014, 08:13

Yes pretty impressive movements yesterday.
The problem with that lot is its only for a couple of months per year while the grouse shooting is on..the winter months are usually dire with only half a dozen movements at weekends>

I think for a positive airport future we need more than that?

SWBKCB

21st Sep 2014, 08:57

with business jets which must of made a fair bit of money,

Must they? Or are the local airports (and handling agents) competing to get his small group of customers as well?? :suspect:

DTVAirport

21st Sep 2014, 15:24

SWBKCB, it's very difficult to compete for corporate traffic, given that if you're wealthy enough to be able to charter/own your own private aircraft, then you choose your destination airport based on the distance to your final destination rather than how good of a deal an airport is willing to offer. I'd estimate as little as 10% of the business aviation market is "stealable".

N707ZS

21st Sep 2014, 16:05

The Tees valley is starting to grow again with all sorts of industry so we should be seeing more than just bird shooters.

onyxcrowle

21st Sep 2014, 21:35

If Tees Valley is growing whete are these new routes then??
And in response to the Manure comment which showed your level of manners, for your information DTV is now my local airport now that I've moved as technically its the closest.
As with Dsa id like to see a London link and perhaps flybe doing Southampton to cater for the cruise flights.
But every post on here is always generally negative or taking swipes at peel.
With this never ending tale about house building.
Perhaps if you want to see Dtv do better. Then let's have a proper discussion on what cam be done to bring in operators.
For example the likes of links air.
But endless sniping at anybody who dare speak is pretty pointless.
I got one want to see it do better as soon as possible.
It's high time that some kind of shake up of the way the uk uses its airports.
The only good way of looking at it is that their only way is up.
I'm actually surprised that Ryanair hasn't bought an airport yet.
One from which they could base x number of aircraft with no landing n handling fees.
So wouldn't Dtv be tempting.
I bet peel would sell. He coukd buy it cheap . Rebrand it. O leary is clever enough to figure how to make it work.
The question is would he keep the corporates or turn it into the airport version of poundlandd with flights to all the typical bucket and spade routes.
Imagine it the moment a passenger drives up to the barrier and gets the car park ticket o leary would be making money.
Just a thought ....

GAXLN

21st Sep 2014, 23:28

Running an airport is an expensive business and the last thing Mr O'Leary would want to face are the full costs of operating an airport. Far better to get airports to price at marginal cost or below and hey presto you have an airport without the full costs and complexity of operating one. Durham Tees Valley is between a rock and a hard place. Literally.

skyman771

22nd Sep 2014, 14:19

onyxcrowle
Then let's have a proper discussion on what cam be done to bring in operators. Agreed that the house building point has been "done", however :-
Unsure as to whether you were simply speaking "tongue in cheek", otherwise you are unfortunately your own worst enemy in fantasising as to a loco purchasing the airport from Peel, let alone one from which it does not, nor has any interest in operating from.
If you are to promote sensible relevant discussion then it would certainly be best to lead by example !:ugh:

Mike Tee

23rd Sep 2014, 05:46

Got to agree with paarmo on this one. As a comparison we landed at Leeds Bradford, late afternoon yesterday and the experience was awful. Seemed like our Ryanair 737 had parked in Wetherby judging by the walk we had to the terminal. Immigration seemed overwhelmed with very long lines The whole place needs a good clean with rubbish and fag ends everywhere. And it took exactly 1 hour from engines off to being picked up by the waiting Sentinal (Off Airport Parking) driver who do offer an excellent service which far outweighs the overall airport experience that this grotty airport offers. And yet it's bursting at the seems.

N707ZS

23rd Sep 2014, 07:53

Mike why haven't you posted a comment on the LBA forum?

rpmac

23rd Sep 2014, 08:27

Better to have an airport that is bursting at the seams with 70+ destinations and a future than an airport that is empty with 2+ destinations.

N707ZS

23rd Sep 2014, 13:06

Even better one that makes money and is not in debt.

HOODED

23rd Sep 2014, 13:29

Very true. But perhaps one still has a possible future as an airport and the other maybe as a housing estate..

DTVAirport

23rd Sep 2014, 13:31

I can't imagine Leeds becoming a housing estate :ugh::rolleyes:

Beafer

23rd Sep 2014, 13:47

Re N707ZS post about debt.

Was Teesside Airport in any debt before Peel was gifted the whole place for £500k?

The land by Peels own accounts is now valued at £30m without houses on it.

If the airport and council owners did have any debt on the place, how much did it amount to?

There was a duty free shop and other retailers there when holiday flights operated under the councils ownership, so jobs were also there, but look at it now.

N707ZS

23rd Sep 2014, 14:15

It was getting in the way at the weekend when most stands were full, stuck there on stand 9 for over 12 months minus one engine. Another story that no one seems to know the answer to.

SWBKCB

26th Sep 2014, 16:13

Durham Tees Valley Airport must focus on its Amsterdam routes if it is to survive, councillors are told (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11497931.Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_must_focus_on_its_Amster dam_routes_if_it_is_to_survive__councillors_are_told/)

Nothing new here, but "eggs" and "baskets" springs to mind!

fa2fi

26th Sep 2014, 16:43

Sustainable profitability is what is important. I think AMS/ABZ are vital for survival. Let's not dilute numbers with flights to another hub. And please, don't anyone mention a London link!

NorthSouth

26th Sep 2014, 16:58

councillors will work to develop a series of recommendations for Peel Holdings to take into account in futureYes you wouldn't want to be too pushy:ugh:

skyman771

26th Sep 2014, 17:36

Let's not dilute numbers with flights to another hub

You should be so lucky..........

By standing still then the business is effectively moving backwards.

Dangerous situation having a monopoly, especially as the economy improves & the ensuing demand increases :ugh:

SWBKCB

26th Sep 2014, 18:48

Northern Echo, 26/09/2014

Peter Nears, strategic planning director at owners Peel Group... ...said: “When we lost the route down to Heathrow in 2009 it wasn’t because it wasn’t making money. It was just that a long haul route out of the same slot can make tens of millions."

Northern Echo, 19/02/2009

Peter Spencer, managing director of bmi, said a decline in demand and above-inflation cost increases at Heathrow meant the routes had become unsustainable and that unless BAA, which owns and runs Heathrow, reversed its pricing policy, there was little prospect of the routes becoming profitable in the future. Mr Spencer said: “The fact is that – due in the main to BAA’s inflation-busting increases and changes to its pricing structures that place a considerable disadvantage on short haul flights – travellers in the north of England are losing their important links to Heathrow. Instead of Heathrow, they will now have to rely on European airports such as Amsterdam, Brussels and Frankfurt to connect to worldwide destinations. BAA, through its tactics, would appear to want to completely cut itself off from the UK regions. This is a strategy that will inevitably have a negative impact upon the economic growth and inward investment in those key areas.”