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Old 19th May 2014, 05:43
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A new thread for Durham Tees Valley Airport. I'll just quickly take a moment to thank PPRuNe Pop for his intervention on the previous one.

On-going discussions from the last thread:

A rumoured new route to be announced next month

Further discussion on why the airport can't accept aircraft larger than 150-or-so seats
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Old 19th May 2014, 08:43
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The only route I could possibly see is Van Air to IOM. I can't see EIR wanting risk their ops at NCL. I am quite confident there is no room for another network carrier. I doubt it'll come to anything either way.
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Old 19th May 2014, 09:56
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Travel Agents

Several years ago I went in to a Teesside travel agent to book a holiday to Majorca. The agent offered me several flights from NCL but never mentioned MME, even though there were flights available. Could the demise of MME be caused by travel agents being given a better bonus to sell NCL? Just a thought!
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Old 19th May 2014, 14:35
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Over the years, agents were given just as much (if not more at one time) commission to sell MME rather than NCL. Unfortunately for MME, it has never been as high profile as NCL...there has always been more choice IMHO from NCL therefore that was the first port of call for agents searching for holidays as it usually meant the flight supplements were cheaper.

MME will never be able to compete with the "bigger boys", however they shouldn't need to if they offer a good enough product catering to the niche market. One thing I always liked about the airport was the short distance from the car park to check in, to departures, to the aircraft.

By chasing the 1 million passenger dream, the airport over-stretched themselves and didn't claw back the expendeture quick enough following the demise of GSM, BMI, etc.

I saw in the previous thread comments hoping for a BEE service to LCY. One reason I personally can't see it happening is that to my knowledge the DH8D is a Cat 6 movement - the same as a B738...and the airport didn't want TOM this summer as it cost too much. Obviously there is more to it than just fire cat, however surely core personnel in the terminal have to be provided regardless of whether there is a KLM, an EZE or a TOM? I don't get how a one day a week Cat 6 movement cannot be feasible yet that is what BEE are offering to Jersey.

I really hope to see the airport survive and start to grow again as if nothing else, the loyal staff who have served the airport for many years deserve it, but one thing is for sure - any hope of seeing holiday flights and London services are virtually nil under the current business plan.
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Old 19th May 2014, 14:42
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Speaking honestly if you call your airport "Edinburgh", "Newcastle", 'Manchester" etc. then Joe Public knows where it is, call it "Tees Side" Or "Durham Tees Valley Whatever" then, to many, "Where the bl00dy hell is that?"

Would calling it "Darlington Airport" be too much to ask to explain to Joe Public where the airport is actually located?
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Old 19th May 2014, 18:08
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2 charters to Lourdes this Friday morning
Air Europa 737 800 + Titan 737 300
Both full so 300+ passengers through the terminal
And they come next Friday 30th, on Albastar 737 400, and again Titan's 733
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Old 19th May 2014, 19:26
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Has a exception been made for these flights or do they also fall foul of the 'no large aircraft' policy that pushed TOM and Balkan out? I'm interested to know what this new scheduled route will be though.
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Old 19th May 2014, 19:41
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Would calling it "Darlington Airport" be too much to ask to explain to Joe Public where the airport is actually located?
Middleton St George has a certain ring to it.
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Old 19th May 2014, 19:48
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Lourdes flights

It will be a miracle if they operate with no problems!
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Old 19th May 2014, 20:54
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Re Thomson:

The problem when you have 1 or 2 weekly flights every week, you then have to staff up permanently for them and carry these costs such as security and terminal services. But crucially, as these 2 flights a week push the fire category up by 1 or 2 bands, then you need additional firemen and that starts to cost big money (plus additional fire kit for the larger aircraft has to be maintained etc)

All of this costs significant money for 1 or 2 flights a week (which are probably paying very little in landing fees and so there is little hope of the airport making their money back)

There's no doubt that the airport loses money. If there was a realistic possibility of a new based 737 operator then you would (business sense) suffer the losses but the radically changed aviation industry over the past few years, and unfortunate demise of the bmi group which was the lifeblood of MME, it is unlikely that MME will make inroads into the LBA / NCL stronghold.

So, on balance, I personally see why they did what they did with charters, and although it's a shame and the public don't understand the reasons, it makes good business sense.

Now, for a one off charter such as the Lourdes, you can charge a higher fee to the operator and also cover the costs with a bit of overtime so it can be done and at least the airport break even. You can't use overtime when it's a regular thing as people end up with no time off .
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Old 19th May 2014, 20:59
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I agree; I would love to know why Santa charters, Lourdes charters and one off holiday flights are allowed and yet a weekly TOM flight isn't. Does anyone know what possible financial reason there would be for this?

E.g. Does the airport charge more for the one-offs that make it viable?

As much as it pains me to say it, I can see some logic to the master plan but this inconsistency has me lost.

Intrigued too on the new route though I am struggling to see what business route would work. The only logic for me would be a flybe bucket and spade route. I am not sure there is enough business travellers wanting to go somewhere new that they can't easily get to.....
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Old 19th May 2014, 21:01
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Our posts crossed....your logic makes sense; thanks for sharing.
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Old 19th May 2014, 23:33
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Thank you mods (PPrune pop for the new thread).
Now it would be nice to discuss how we move forward for the airport without abusive comments like is this a joke.
A suggestion that for example Ema could be a UK hub airport is no more out there than The Thames estuary or Sites in Oxford or Even Birmingham -.
Anyway back to DTV.
I think we need to start with the likes of links air.
Perhaps The IOM based carrier .
Maybe even Login air.
Flybe coukd operate a E170 to Sen. And arrange a code share with the train operators into London.
Or link LCY.
With Klm and Eastern with Aberdeen perhaps Eastern coukd increase its offerings.
Now that they have the Sumburgh contract , I imagine a Direct Flight from DTV to Sumburgh woukd probably be popular with local industry.
Question though Does Stornoway have similar traffic?.
How about a Manchester shuttle. (Links air).
This was already mooted for Newcastle a while back.
And finally Norwich. Again capitalise on the oil workers flights. But offer seats for regular passengers.
Seeing how Shetland has a lot to offer a tourist.
A niche route like that might spotlight DTV in a good way.
And perhaps increase AMS frequency.
Would JET 2 take a punt?
Paris perhaps? .
Any thoughts on such routes or routes you guys think coukd work? .
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Old 20th May 2014, 00:35
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Not sure why fire category is an issue as they either have the appliance or not. It then comes to staffing which they can force to go part time as required, and fire fighters do multi task as baggage handlers at other airfields.

It seems to me a failure to "right size" if anything. It's a mad signal to send to a potential customer that you can handle the odd one off but not on a regular basis. Not having go per se, just baffled as to why they don't do what others like PIK had to do to get through the lean years.
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Old 20th May 2014, 00:47
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Onyx - I know that I have explained this point to you before but you appear to have forgotten again. Airlines exist to make PROFIT for their owners. In order to have a fighting chance of achieving this, each individual aircraft must be deployed such that it can maximise PROFIT. A 'maybe this might work, maybe that might work' strategy is assured financial suicide. Aircraft are hugely expensive assets and that is before operating costs are considered. Small third-level carriers do not have limitless pits of cash to back high-risk punts.

Now look dispassionately at your wishlist and ask yourself two simple questions. Be totally honest. Firstly, would this service make a profit at all? Secondly, if so, does it constitute a superior profit opportunity than deploying the aircraft on any alternative route (between any city-pair)? I suspect that most readers here are capable of discerning the appropriate conclusions despite them not being what they might like them to be.

You may recall that we had a similar discussion on the subject of airline economics some months ago when you were suggesting that Ryanair / Jet2 and the like should establish large-scale operations at DSA and/or HUY. The principles I explained to you back then haven't changed. The assets (aircraft) will gravitate to the most profitable route opportunities. Wherever that takes them. Sentiment and civic pride don't come into the decision. Just profit opportunity. Always profit. Think cash flows, not passenger numbers. Follow the money. That is what any good business will do.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:34
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The Manchester shuttle will never work. The train is frequent and 2.5 hours cheap deals can be made.

The Scottish Islands will not work. As someone of that heritage I know very few people who have visited there from the NE. A lot of people bring their cars and explore the area as a whole as let's face it you need a car when you're there and SYY town can be done in a day for a tourist.

Anyway, a flight from MME will not work. Eastern sell connection the SYY via ABZ anyway, I very much doubt there is enough demand to support a dedicated air service. Yes people do visit, but not in great numbers. SYY does not have any links to England, I very much MME will be first on the list! Same with LSI (save for the odd seasonal and irregular Atlantic Airlines to STN).

Some suggestions are rather fanciful I see here. MME has it's niche. It seems to be working for them as it is. They're never going to be a major player. They have a domestic to ABZ which serves the demand and KL allows connections throughout the world. It has all it can feasibly support minus perhaps the non airline to IOM or weekly JER flights.

If there was oil traffic to be capitalised on then T3 would be on the case.

The London links have been discussed to death. They didn't work for BD with their feed via LHR and will never return and LCY won't work
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Old 20th May 2014, 13:34
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Beafer, the data you have linked to shows only current assets and current liabilities.

The full accounts show that the airport still has net total assets.

Admittedly in the last year reported, a big lump of value has disappeared out of the company's balance sheet, which is not reflected in the trading figures.

If you want to know why, the answer may be in the full accounts deposited at Companies House, which will cost you 1.
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Old 20th May 2014, 15:25
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As far as I'm aware, all Lourdes passengers are exempt from 6 PFF.

Again, intrigued to find out what the new proposed route could be.

Also noticed that Eastern have been using the Saab a lot more often and even the E145 this morning. Increased passenger numbers maybe or merging half empty flights to keep the costs down?
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Old 20th May 2014, 15:46
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I do wonder whether the new route could be somewhere like Norwich or Southampton? Can't see it being a European destination to be honest.
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Old 20th May 2014, 17:25
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SOU has been tried. It didn't work. I don't think the market has changed.
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