UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

[HAL9000]

If the decision to cancel was taken by somebody in the RAF command chain I am sure the senior officer responsible will be happy to explain his/her decision in person. Or...

[Oldsarbouy]

Good coverage on the banned get together on local STV News so there should be a good turnout!

[llamaman]

Hilarious. The 'powers that be' ban D Flight's informal goodbye beers to avoid any unnecessary pre-election fuss and the whole thing gets plastered across the local press and National Scottish TV thus achieving exactly what they tried to avoid in the first place. Now that everyone who wasn't invited in the first place knows the details it could make for a very interesting night!

[jimf671]

'Shabby': Fury as MoD cancel farewell party for 202 Squadron search and rescue heroes - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/shabby-fury-mod-cancel-farewell-5385432)

[[email protected]]

This won't have been the SAR Force Commander's idea - this will have come from much higher up.

It's still a complete disgrace and those responsible should be utterly embarrassed.

Has this got anything to do with the senior echelons realising what a huge mistake they made agreeing to hand over the SAR Force?

[llamaman]

Agreed Crab. He's one of the good guys and no doubt his strings are being pulled by those who are very much out of touch with reality. It's such a shame that this example of senior leadership f@ckwittery will taint the end of a magnificent era of RAF Search and Rescue in the Scottish Highlands.

[Snarlie]

Steady boys! You are beginning to sound like we in the RAF care more about column inches , air time and medals than the task itself.
Why don`t we accept that the provision of SAR services has moved on now and bow out gracefully.
Crab, Llamaman et al could always purchase a croft in the Highlands with a hot line to Inverness and call them up to tell them they are doing it all wrong.

[llamaman]

Steady boys! You are beginning to sound like we in the RAF care more about column inches , air time and medals than the task itself.
Why don`t we accept that the provision of SAR services has moved on now and bow out gracefully.
Crab, Llamaman et al could always purchase a croft in the Highlands with a hot line to Inverness and call them up to tell them they are doing it all wrong.

Snarlie,
I'm not sure my comments had anything to do with 'Inverness doing it all wrong.' I was merely pointing out the folly of our military and political leaders denying D Flt the opportunity to have a few beers and say thankyou to the community they have served so well.

Stop trying to stoke up a fight where there is none. For what it's worth I wish the Bristow crews all the best in this new era and have no axe to grind.
Doesn't stop me being supportive of the crews that didn't want MilSAR to end and haven't been given an opportunity to continue doing the job the love dearly though.

[P3 Bellows]

Personally i cant see what the "powers" are concerned about really.

When they got rid of the Nimrods with unseamly haste following the enquiry, they at least got a disbandment parade and a flypast.

How cant 202 get the same sort of fecking respect at the end of the month.

Distinct lack of spine somewhere at the top me thinks.

P3

[jimf671]

Here is one possible reason.

"The Government has recently announced that pre-election purdah before the next general election will begin on 30 March 2015, the same day as the dissolution of Parliament." :ugh:

Election ?purdah? or the pre-election period - Commons Library Standard Note - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN05262/election-purdah-or-the-preelection-period)

That is really really clever stuff. Every thing in the world of government starts on the 1st April and but we can't know about it because under the new electoral regime it is in the election campaign period. I hope you all got your tax coding already because next week you're screwed. :eek:

[llamaman]

ps Snarlie

we in the RAF

Having looked at your profile I'm not sure that's entirely accurate either!

Get your facts straight son.

llamaman

[[email protected]]

Jim, nothing in that Purdah document is relevant - shutting a SAR flight is not new policy or even vaguely political - the purdah is about avoiding political bias through advertising or patronage.

Sadly it must just be a complete lack of spine from someone in power.

[satsuma]

http://m.thetelegram.com/Business/2015-02-26/article-4058174/Researchers-investigating-force-needed-to-escape-helicopter/1

Don't know why they're bothering. According to some, those push out windows aren't needed anyway.

[jimf671]

Jim, nothing in that Purdah document is relevant - shutting a SAR flight is not new policy or even vaguely political - the purdah is about avoiding political bias through advertising or patronage.

Sadly it must just be a complete lack of spine from someone in power.


I agree.




(Let's hope recent reminders to serving personnel about the use of social media were designed to protect us from guys with machetes and not to protect the management.) :eek:

[jimf671]

The Telegram: Helicopter escape research. (http://www.thetelegram.com/Business/2015-02-26/article-4058174/Researchers-investigating-force-needed-to-escape-helicopter/1)

[Older and Wiser]

The gap in SAR coverage between Dalcross and Humberside - was it just a little bit too much for the O&G industry safety managers?
North Sea search helicopters get £60m oil and gas pledge - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-32115457)

[jimf671]

The gap in SAR coverage between Dalcross and Humberside - was it just a little bit too much for the O&G industry?

............ Yes.

[jimf671]

Looking like S-92 weather all week around here. :cool:

[Sevarg]

Big day tomorrow. Best of luck to all. Let's not forget many thanks to them that have stood down. I can't be are the banned bar but I'll have a pint with you.

[satsuma]

Looking like S-92 weather all week around here.

I think whether it's dark or not will be a bigger concern than the weather in the weeks and months ahead. How exactly is this being allowed to go ahead? I thought being NVG capable from day one was a requirement of the contract.

[Flaxton Flyer]

Love this quote from the mum of one of the SAR boys about why the party had been cancelled....

“Maybe they feared they would slag off the new service but they wouldn’t do that, they are responsible human beings.

Maybe somebody should point her to Pprune......😉

[llamaman]

Quote from Satsuma;

I thought being NVG capable from day one was a requirement of the contract.

Care to expand? What has been declared in terms of NVG capability?

[jimf671]

Big day tomorrow. Best of luck to all. ... ...



http://www.kintailmrt.org.uk/image/training/2005/nothinglikeanofficewithaview_RAF.jpg
"So you're moving to a new office?"


[Borrowed from Training 2005: Kintail Mountain Rescue Team in Wester Ross, Scotland (http://www.kintailmrt.org.uk/trg05.htm).)

[jimf671]

... ... I thought being NVG capable from day one was a requirement of the contract.

My understanding is that Humberside have been ahead of Inverness on NVG training. You would expect that when Inverness's problems with aircraft and storm damage are considered. Two levels of training objective may exist for NVG: one for those with previous experience and one for those without.

There are a lot of people in the training system and only two bases to staff. Nautical Twilight start/end: 05h 22m/21h 22m and getting better every day. Faced with the possibility of contract penalties and reputational damage, what do you think is going to happen?

Change-over is expected as planned.

[shetlander]

ARCC have now been instructed to go ahead with all new taskings as per the handover agreement. All new call signs kick in now as well.

[Oldsarbouy]

Just before 0800 this morning the mighty Sea King roared past my house at speed and low level and looked like it was headed for the West Coast. Could it be on it's way to a job? :ok:

[jimf671]

Just before 0800 this morning the mighty Sea King roared past my house at speed and low level and looked like it was headed for the West Coast. Could it be on it's way to a job? :ok:

And probably low over Dalcross as well then. :-)

Welcome to the new era BUT overlap would appear to be in progress.

Keep calm and carry on.

[Wander00]

Just a big thank you to all the military SAR boys and girls for "being there" over the years, and for the many lives you have saved. Thanks too, and a pat on the side, for the Seakings, and aeroplane that did a brilliant job as did the Wessex and Whirlwind in earlier years.

[shetlander]

Sea King past my house this morning!
Just before 0800 this morning the mighty Sea King roared past my house at speed and low level and looked like it was headed for the West Coast. Could it be on it's way to a job?

The Bristow S92 assumed its first rescue callsign this morning whilst on its way to a Mountain Rescue at Ben Nevis.

[jimf671]

The Bristow S92 assumed its first rescue callsign this morning whilst on its way to a Mountain Rescue at Ben Nevis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-32144002


S-92 heading south over Loch Ness. 1435h BST.

Confirmed on AIS track (MMSI 111232511).

[cyclic]

Good job it wasn't in the dark at the Ben....

[leopold bloom]

Or the back of the Ben.........

[cyclic]

Never talk about the back of the Ben....

[Sumpor Stylee]

Any bets if the crew in Dalcross will get a night call out later? Not a nice April fools joke for the DfT if there's no NVG capability.......:E

[llamaman]

Any bets if the crew in Dalcross will get a night call out later? Not a nice April fools joke for the DfT if there's no NVG capability.......

Can anybody add any actual substance to the issue of NVG capability (or lack of it)? I know this is a rumour network but some facts might be useful.

[jimf671]

Facts?

Heavens!

Those with the facts rarely waste them on this lot.

[jimf671]

Write something here..

137 heading SW.

Inverness. 0910h.

Off on an easter break?
RAF MRS tpt a/c?
??

[WorkingSection]

Cab has just departed Lossie- presumably to RAF Valley. Sad to see it go.

[jimf671]

Cab has just departed Lossie- presumably to RAF Valley. Sad to see it go.

You mean the RAF has sent it away without asking permission on pprune? Shocking! ;-)


Have both gone?

[Oldsarbouy]

Next Tuesday I believe and the hangar will be bare.

[jimf671]

Packed in the Drouthy Cobbler. :cool: A few old sar boys and mrt. :ok:

CAS hasn't turned up. Surely somebody must have told him it was on? :E

[Sevarg]

Day 4 now and the world north of the Forth/Clyde is still there. I take it that Civsar is working or has the midnight Sun made NVG's un-needed? It all gone very silent from the wee orange. Bait out.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It's all going terribly well.............................................:hmm:


Apparently it is Crab!

[[email protected]]

As it should for what it costs:ok:

Any actual info on the NVG status?

[Same again]

As it should for what it costs

I must have imagined you telling us all that Bristow were providing an inferior service by cutting costs.

Any actual info on the NVG status?

Yes - lots. Sadly Crab it is information for those actively involved in UK SAR only :ok:

[Sevarg]

Crab, just as a matter of interest how much did it cost to run a SAR flight. Let's say Boulmer, which would compare nicely with one of the new civ bases. I don't think that Bristow will give us the figures but a good idea could be got by deviding the contract cost by the years by the number of bases. When I came out of the RAF it was an eye opener the reduction in cost to operate a cab in the civil world. My guess would be the the old set up cost us much more and that would be with the old equipment.

[[email protected]]

Sevarg - no-one was allowed to compare costs - the actual cost of running a RAF SAR flt wasn't established as it was inconvenient to the process of civilianisation.

Remember, MilSAR wasn't canned because it cost too much, it was canned because generations of leaders failed to invest in a Sea King replacement. Once Afghanistan kicked off, anything that wasn't core to that theatre was never going to get funding.

Was the Sea King expensive to maintain? Yes, partly because of its age and partly because of the number of hours we flew. If you cut the flying rate in half (especially the training) of course it looks cheaper.

I must have imagined you telling us all that Bristow were providing an inferior service by cutting costs. yes you did, I highlighted that cutting training hours means a reduction in capability but one that would be difficult to quantify if you have no idea about front-line SAR training.

Yes - lots. Sadly Crab it is information for those actively involved in UK SAR only Ah, just the sort of openness we have come to expect from HMCG when there is stuff they are uncomfortable about. What I think you mean is there is a problem but I shouldn't ask awkward questions about it.

I am sure there would be trumpet fanfare and press releases if the full (as good as the mil) NVD capability was already in place.

[jimf671]

... it was canned because generations of leaders failed to invest in a Sea King replacement. Once Afghanistan kicked off, anything that wasn't core to that theatre was never going to get funding.

Undoubtedly.

And now having half the guys flying around in Chinooks and Puma2 and large numbers of folks on £80k thinking up stuff for them to do will probably cost more than the whole SAR fleet.



... ... Ah, just the sort of openness we have come to expect from HMCG when there is stuff they are uncomfortable about. ...

No kidding!

[cyclic]

Yes - lots. Sadly Crab it is information for those actively involved in UK SAR only

and that is all of us as we pay your wages!

[handysnaks]

Well put in an FOI request! No point giving a hard time to those at the new rockface!

[JerryG]

Hear Hear Handysnaks. SURELY it's time to stop sniping from the trenches, give the new guard a fair crack at the whip, and celebrate the good work they are already doing.

Take a look at the Australian model for an interesting glimpse of how well a civilian SAR service can work. (and thanks to the VIC police helicopter boys who pulled my unconscious - carbon monoxide poisoning - mate off his boat this week, whilst it was doing 10 knots in circles; GREAT work, you saved his life. Bravo Zulu).

Talking of celebration you might be interested to listen to BBC Radio 4 this Sunday when Sue MacGregor's programme "The Reunion" brings together five of us from Fastnet '79. It was a sobering experience to record it alongside Nick Ward, the last man to be pulled out alive that day, and the author of the extraordinary book "Left For Dead"

SAR is about PEOPLE who have lived for several decades beyond what they might otherwise have done, due to the skills and dedication of many of the contributors to this forum, both military and civilian. It's about highly motivated people working together to achieve a common and worthwhile aim. IMHO this forum should begin to work in the same vein.

[Al-bert]

JerryG

it's a pity that the truth re the Fastnet has been suppressed, and you were too junior at the time to know what was going on.
The RN controlled the whole debacle and the professional assets of the RAF were rejected - to quote Culdrose Cdr Air "keep your nose out, it's a navy show". I had three SAR Wessex crews under my command and ready to go from Valley. Two Whirlwinds at Brawdy were available and at least one new Sea King HAR3 at Culdrose, manned by the most experienced RAF crews (instructors), was ordered to return to dispersal when they self launched.
Following the Fastnet tragedy, RN SAR came under the OPCON of the RAF RCC's.

I explained this to Nick Ward who was a tad surprised; unsurprisingly the BBC were not interested! :sad:

[jimf671]

A video of Rescue 951 in action at Ben Nevis. (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=844083725629411&set=vb.190700107634446&type=2&theater) :ok:

[Same again]

Last time I looked at my payslip your name was not there Cyclic.

If you need to know about ANVIS then write to the manufacturers.

[jimf671]

... Sadly Crab it is information for those actively involved in UK SAR only :ok:



So that'll mean that Stornoway and Sumburgh are also in the ... em ... eh ... dark? :(

[mmitch]

A few 'ifs and maybes' at the moment but it looks like there will be a SAR base at Lydd for about 12 months. Then if Manston can be reopened it will move there.
Manston Airport campaign gets 'double boost' from government - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-32240869)
mmitch.

[Sumpor Stylee]

What's that about being in the dark?

The only NVG capable asset north of Hadrian's Wall is a Sea King at present....

How many days in are we...? :ugh:

[[email protected]]

It's not as if there wasn't enough time to get this sorted out before the 'no less capable service' was rolled out.

Perhaps they should have prioritised getting a SQEP with extensive SAR NVD instructional experience into position 18 months ago......perhaps someone with a proven track record of delivering both initial and front-line SAR NVD training and extensive operational experience to back it up:E

Or maybe it is just regulations (which have had even longer to get sorted) that are holding them back!

Either way, the night capability, especially in poor weather overland, is seriously degraded and someone needs to get a grip - there is plenty of darkness at lower latitudes even in the height of summer so how are tricky night jobs going to get done then without NVD?

[Never Fretter]

They'll be carried out without the sour grapes and closed mind that infect your repetitious posts Crab. Was it not that long ago that "offshore SAR is impractical without a 360 degree radar"?

[[email protected]]

So it is my closed mind that has led to the new SAR service being launched ( and the mil aircraft and crews stood down) without NVD capability is it???

A bit like my closed mind that led the HMCG to launch the 139 into service without any night over water capability a few years ago.:ugh:

As for the radar, not impractical, just not as safe:ok:

[cyclic]

Last time I looked at my payslip your name was not there Cyclic.

If you need to know about ANVIS then write to the manufacturers.

I wasn't referring to Anvis, I know plenty about them thanks - get over yourself. If you don't want to share anything good about the new service then don't - I'm sure HMCG & Bristow will be thrilled to have such a representative amongst their midst. I want you all to succeed, what I and so many others have contributed to over the years is too precious to lose.

[Same again]

Most of us 'contributed' in a previous military life too. Which is why the new service will run perfectly well in more capable aircraft flown by competent crews who all want to do a professional job of work. Judging by the recent tasks completed (including one at night believe it or not) that is exactly what is happening.

[JerryG]

Sorry Al-bert, I can't let that go by without some very specific responses

it's a pity that the truth re the Fastnet has been suppressed, and you were too junior at the time to know what was going on. Junior ... very possibly, but I was a bit busy that day to be arguing politics on a telephone!

The RN controlled the whole debacle136 lives saved in one day is a "debacle" is it? I'm afraid you go beyond the bounds of inter-service banter Sir.

and the professional assets of the RAF were rejectedWrong. The RAF Nimrod, as an appropriate asset to the task, was gratefully received by us all and did an outstandingly professional job

I had three SAR Wessex crews under my command and ready to go from Valley. The boys at Valley were admired by us all for their mountain expertise. Furthermore, although I concede that I'm guessing here, Wings would have been making a balanced judgement between Wessex from afar versus Seakings on his own doorstep manned by pilots whom he knew (and whose suitability he could therefore judge) personally.

Two Whirlwinds at Brawdy were availableWHIRLWNDS! ... on Fastnet day? ... you cannot be serious.

I reiterate my plea that this forum be used for handing experience forward. In that context why don't we old f^rts put aside 35 year old (plus some) grievances and discuss how that event would and should be handled if it happened again tomorrow within the new SAR framework?

[jimf671]

... The only NVG capable asset north of Hadrian's Wall is a Sea King at present...


Remind me how long it took them to get NVG?

Tell me about their thermal imaging capability?

[Thomas coupling]

Is it banter .....or is it boring? I'm losing the will to live over this subject.
The UK is/has been undergoing a dilution of assets (mil or civvy) in various shapes or forms since (probably before) 2007. For reasons other than the financial meltdown we found ourselves in (this simply accelerated the process). We (the UK) have outgrown our usefulness from a global positioning perspective and we need to restructure ourselves accordingly and align our current status with those already aligned to the 'new world order' (namely: Norway, Denmark, Germany et al). We cannot continue to run a world leading military order -simples. So paring back is the way to go. RAF SAR lost its raison d'etre - god knows how many years ago. It was surplus to requirement (as a military outfit) and several senior officers and politicians knew it. It just needed the right moment for it to be tipped over the political edge.
The government continued to squeeze further savings after the debacle that was SAR(H) in 2010. - Realising that this was far to generous a package handing over and so they grabbed the opportunity to 'adjust' SARH2 to within an inch of its monetary life by dicing up the new contract into much more manageable chunks. And so we are now left with a wafer thin (rescue) service like a lot of other 'public' services which will almost certainly not stand the test of time (look at the railways, GP practices, social care) without further financial injections at later stages or Bristow operating only to the bare minimum of its contractual obligations - and you can't blame them. Blame the government.
Further - SAR is a 'hidden' public service - the man on the street doesn't have the faintest idea what is going on in SAR, doesn't care and it isn't a vote winner.....don't expect miracles or even a par with its previous incarnation. Voters don't care.........................:rolleyes:

[Spanish Waltzer]

TC - Agree with you wholeheartedly. The easiest way to determine whether a subject has the interest of the public vote is to see how many column inches the editors allow for the subject. Not seen an awful lot in the general media & even the specialist media is not really picking up on it. Apart from the die hards on here & linkedIn etc and Bristow public relations putting out the odd rescue story when they happen for the same people to 'like' no one cares....yesterday's news is today's chip wrapper! Shall we all move on now?

[P3 Bellows]

Shall we all move on now?

Yes please

[[email protected]]

and you can't blame them. Blame the government. yes you can blame them - who undercut the competitors by huge a huge margin that the rest of the bidders were left floundering?

If it ends up as a 'wafer-thin' rescue service that needs bailing out when it becomes a political football, what exactly has been achieved??? Certainly nothing for the good of the country, its populace or travellers around and across our SAR Region of Responsibility.

So, to paraphrase Edmund Burke ' All that is required for crap things to happen is for those who know better to stand and watch politicians F**k them up'. Sad old world really.

[Spanish Waltzer]

No crab - you still cant really blame Bristow. Perhaps blame those that reviewed the bids and accepted theirs as compliant & achievable.....although to be fair apart from a few commentators on here who may or may not have much fact to base their comments on, there is little factual evidence that suggests the Bristow operation so far is non compliant. The lack of 189 flying has been managed appropriately with S92 cover which is still compliant...

SW

[[email protected]]

It is too easy to blame those who reviewed and check the bids for compliance - I know some people who were involved and it was a nightmare of a job checking every fact and figure (often stuff that should have been correctly referenced and presented by the bidder) - you have to draw your subject matter experts from far and wide and those with the best knowledge might not be the most experienced in this analysis discipline.

Whether or not the contract continues (or has even started) to be compliant will only be known by Bristow, HMCG and DfT so I won't expect any revelations here or in the press - we just won't know.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Perhaps then dont look for anyone to blame until there is factual evidence that something is actually wrong...

[Sevarg]

And whom screwed up SAR10?? Not Bristow, one hears that someone in light blue was feeding info to one of the other bidders. If that hadn't come to light not only would the contract have been overpriced but no doubt pockets would have been lined with our hard earned taxes.
So far all we hear is rumour that the NGV is not up to speed, supposition that there arn't enough bases and what seems like hope that the whole thing will fail and the good fairy will pay billions to the RAF to save the day.
As the RAF can't even police our coast and doesn't seem to have enough air defence aircraft to protect UK I can't see them getting the call from Number 10.
Lets put the mud down and watch how it pans out and if there are any FACTS that show that things are not as they should be then lets put in a post.

[jimf671]

... We (the UK) have outgrown our usefulness from a global positioning perspective and we need to restructure ourselves accordingly and align our current status with those already aligned to the 'new world order' (namely: Norway, Denmark, Germany et al). We cannot continue to run a world leading military order - simples. So paring back is the way to go. RAF SAR lost its raison d'etre - god knows how many years ago. It was surplus to requirement (as a military outfit) and several senior officers and politicians knew it.

Agreed in respect of the geo-political framework. We are a little NW European country scrambling to get over our long-held delusions of grandeur. :ugh:

However, I suggest that a broader interpretation of the task of defending the British people could have been taken. SAR Force, Fleet Air Arm SAR flights and ARCC could have morphed into something new that resembled the Norwegian model. The Coastguard, with European Parliament ambitions for their extinction and limited authority within the current regulatory framework, needs to put down strong roots in new areas so that they can feel important and secure. Morphing into 'UK Rescue' fits the bill and if you don't have the skill set then just buy it in. :E


... The government continued to squeeze further savings after the debacle that was SAR(H) in 2010. - Realising that this was far to generous a package handing over and so they grabbed the opportunity to 'adjust' SARH2 to within an inch of its monetary life by dicing up the new contract into much more manageable chunks. ...

Agreed. The Treasury definitely had it in for SARH25. To put numbers on just the basics of that, if an aviation contractor is expected to estimate what something is going to cost in 25 years time then the estimate is going be HUGE. At 10 years, uncertainty is much more manageable.


... - and you can't blame them. Blame the government. ...

Yes. We've been doing this since 1971. Somebody in government should have got a grip and sorted it out. No chance. Scrappy little contracts came and went without significant progress in the technical specification and the way they addressed the wider SAR pcture. :ugh: :ugh:

Without the challenge of a full and appropriate technical specification, the contractor kept bidding on what was there. As I understand it, it is not the regulator's job to stick their nose in and decide what the job is. The customer initiates the changes in the regulatory framework by specifying the task and the operator then has to work with the regulator to develop a safe way forward.

Now we are left with a huge step-change in the technical specification and therefore the regulatory framework. What it comes down to is that this was the job thrust on the shoulders of Liz Forsyth and John McIntyre last week. Good luck folks. :ok:

(From Casbag 36.) "This stuff is all new to us (MR) but we are not alone. No civilian operator has ever had a contract like this operating in a regulatory framework like this before. The CAA has never regulated operations like these before. That goes some way toward explaining why this has all taken so long and why incremental changes continue."

(As I posted elsewhere.) "Bristow will be experiencing all the problems you might expect with a major public contract of this complexity. Most of those problems will be ironed out and we will never need to know anything about them. Whatever mistakes Bristow make there is a good chance that they will also be made to carry the can for any mistakes of their customer or the regulator."


... Further - SAR is a 'hidden' public service - the man on the street doesn't have the faintest idea what is going on in SAR, doesn't care and it isn't a vote winner.....don't expect miracles or even a par with its previous incarnation. Voters don't care.........................:rolleyes:

Yes. The voters don't care. That's because nothing has gone badly wrong, so far, as we approach election time. :eek:

However, perhaps around a million internet posts in English on UK sites have been posted on this subject. That doesn't count comments on internet press articles which might be another million or two. So it took more than a couple of dozen sad ppruners to produce that lot which means that quite a few people are ready to care. Also, the world is watching and contractors and governments around the planet are waiting to see what happens.

-----------------

La oss gå flyr. :cool:

[[email protected]]

Oh dear Sevarg - not ex-RN by any chance with that anti-RAF drivel?

No-one is expecting the RAF to save the day - the deed is done and we can only hope that the new service gets up to speed as soon as possible.

There may be regulatory issues preventing the NVG ops but these have been in the pipeline for a long time - DfT need to get a grip.

Meanwhile, HMCG have shown their grand plan for reducing bases and streamlining operations hasn't gone smoothly - Swansea CG was closed based on the incorrect assumption that Milford could cope - now they are desperately recruiting ex-Swansea staff because they were a. competent and b. had local knowledge.

And these are the guys tasked with managing UKSAR - they were proposing to monitor the UKSAR aviation contract using the same chap who monitors vehicles and other contracts - no aviation knowledge or experience at all. I hope they have finally got someone in who knows something about SAR, particularly aviation provision of SAR.

And who was the customer Without the challenge of a full and appropriate technical specification, the contractor kept bidding on what was there. As I understand it, it is not the regulator's job to stick their nose in and decide what the job is. The customer initiates the changes in the regulatory framework by specifying the task and the operator then has to work with the regulator to develop a safe way forward. oh yes that would be HMCG.

There is a rumour that military rearcrew are being asked to bring their own safety equipment (immersion suits, helmets etc) when they start training with Bristow - the lead time on company kit is 4 months or so apparently. More fantastic organisation!

[Sevarg]

In Reply Crab
Oh dear Sevarg - not ex-RN by any chance with that anti-RAF drivel?
No afraid not ex RN, ex RAF but one that thinks for myself, as I have said before the brain washing didn't work.;) In fact I've been out so long and now retired, I would call myself an ex civilian.
Re the NVG RUMOUR of regulatory problems. This is up to the CAA not the DfT. The CAA or EASA are not behold to DfT nor should they be. Not that I am saying for one minute that they are not with out their faults. In this case I think it's the CAA and they are Quote Wiki:-
The UK Government requires that the CAA’s costs are met entirely from its charges on those whom it regulates. Unlike many other countries, there is no direct Government funding of the CAA’s work. It is classed as a public corporation, established by statute, in the public sector. The connection it has with the government is via the Machinery of Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinery_of_government) and Standards Group of the Cabinet Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_Office).
So that's the cage to rattle, not much hope until the elections over.
I'm not defending the CG, I admit I know little of their workings and have had no contact with them for 15 years.
Lastly I see no point in commenting on the latest RUMOUR on rear crew safety equip, you say yourself it's a RUMOUR. I know this is a rumour network but here they get treated as facts.

[[email protected]]

Sevarg, apologies for assuming dark-blueness on your part.

If the CAA is established by statute, is part of the machinery of Govt and presided over by the Cabinet Office, then the DfT is exactly the cage to rattle - but I agree the election will prevent any actual action.

I can only state things as a rumour that I have not personally witnessed, no matter how much I trust the source of such comments. And, as you say, it is a rumour network.

Whilst I have every faith in the crews and aircraft of the new SAR service, I have very little in the mechanisms and organisations set up to manage and monitor what actually goes on to provide them with the best help possible.

[jimf671]

... If the CAA is established by statute, ...


A subject hardly worth our attention. However, the Coasties on the other hand ....

[satsuma]

If these 'rumours' weren't true, someone would be on here gnashing their teeth.

Ask the ARCC who they'll be sending to night overland tasks in Scotland for the forseeable future. Prestwick or Boulmer, that's who.

As for the lack of immersion suits - it's been the case for quite a while.

[Same again]

Aha. The little orange petulant is back. Are you a Bristow reject by any chance?

[llamaman]

Aha. The little orange petulant is back. Are you a Bristow reject by any chance?

I think Satsuma may have a point. The new service was supposed to see no reduction in capability and was heralded by a certain politician as a "better service". However, it is what it is and will no doubt (in terms of night capability) catch up as crews with previous NVG experience replace the transition crews. I'm assuming (read hoping) that is what will happen as the agencies involved are keeping somewhat tight-lipped about the matter. The ARCC has had to cope with no overland NVG capability from the two Bristow gap-SAR flights, it is not a new problem!

[Same again]

I read lots of 'points'. I see that the latest one is immersion suits. I don't know what planet these people live on but where I come from 100+ bespoke immersion suits take some time to appear - as do the measurements of crews not even employed by Bristow yet.

Good God it will be the wrong type of biscuits in the crew room next. Pathetic.

[jimf671]

... ... Good God it will be the wrong type of biscuits in the crew room next. Pathetic.


Just to clear up one important point, the biscuits in the crew room are pretty good. :ok: (Not sure if they'll be letting me near them again though. :E)

[llamaman]

I read lots of 'points'. I see that the latest one is immersion suits. I don't know what planet these people live on but where I come from 100+ bespoke immersion suits take some time to appear - as do the measurements of crews not even employed by Bristow yet.

Good God it will be the wrong type of biscuits in the crew room next. Pathetic.

Calm down! I don't think lack of an NVG capability is comparable with biscuits. I agree that immersion suits may be a logistical hiccup and certainly a problem that has been got round. However, standing-up new SAR bases when not 100% capable whilst on the other hand claiming an equal if not improved service is, quite rightly, something that causes concern for those of us that care. Nothing more.

[Same again]

The alleged lack of compliance or capability that the same individuals keep harping on about is becoming more than a little tedious. You will not get any answers to your questions and snipes here on a public site for the same reasons that you will not find military crews declaring their capabilities on the military aircrew forum. They are tax payer-funded too but the public does have an automatic right to that information.

If you want information then I am sure that you are welcome to arrange a visit to your nearest SAR base where, if they are not out training or on a shout, they will tell you as much as they are able about the operation.

There are very few Bristow SAR crew members who actually take any notice of this forum. They cannot learn anything from it. One person described it to me as 'Jurassic Park', populated by disgruntled ex-military SAR dinosaurs, petulant Bristow rejects and armchair experts.

[Al-bert]

:ugh:

Jerry G, please don't think this is 'inter service banter', rivalry, whatever. The Command & Control of the Fastnet, probably above 'Wings' head even, was a goat f..k!
Properly crewed and trained RAF assets were offered and rejected. This is to take NOTHING from the RN crews who carried out those rescues - but when one witnessed (on TV) empty strops being dangled towards survivors who couldn't reach them, scratch RN crews being hauled in off leave by local radio bulletins, and the use of helos to fly camera crew (again, not SAR equipped) questions should have been asked of the RN Command. Those questions undoubtedly were addressed since subsequently RN SAR came under the RCC's.
BTW, RAF crews were equally capable over the water as they were in the hills. In my 22 years and over 7k hours I guess I did my fair share of both.

Wishing the new CIV SAR all the very best for the future. Onwards and upwards - now, is it navy patter or RAF patter you use ;)

[Hompy]

Which dinosaur are you same again and why are you on here? Not bothered though?

[[email protected]]

The alleged lack of compliance or capability that the same individuals keep harping on about is becoming more than a little tedious. not half as tedious as the crap excuses made by the same individuals to avoid the fact that a very expensive Govt contract has been allowed to start without meeting the required spec.

Then, in a pathetic effort to denigrate the credentials of those who are actually concerned about this stuff, the same individuals start name-calling.

Same Again - fortunately I know that you are not typical of the Bristow workforce otherwise I would fear even more for the future of UKSAR.

[jimf671]

... ... subsequently RN SAR came under the RCC's. ...

35 years ago lesson learnt: RN SAR comes under ARCCs. :ok:

5 years ago lesson learnt: CG SAR comes under ARCC. :ok:

Now, lessons not learnt: give ARCC to CG. :ugh:

[llamaman]

Thanks for the patronising response Same Again. Much of the discussion on this forum is valid (much is not). More importantly it is a public forum where people are free to express their opinions, if they upset you so much why are you here!!?

People aren't necessarily expecting answers but they are free to express their frustrations. If it makes you feel better by trying to shout them down then that is your problem.

[HAL9000]

So is the handover going seamlessly with absolutely no reduction in capability or not? That was what was promised is it not?

[Sumpor Stylee]

Is a lack of NVG in some cases a reduction?

[[email protected]]

Not during the day;):ok:

[jimf671]

So, chaps, if you were sitting with MCA Aviation management in Southampton, what questions would you be asking them?

[Hilife]

Where are we going for lunch? ;)

[jimf671]

Where are we going for lunch? ;)

Excellent reply Hilife but I think that particular point has probably been covered already and far too many times in this process.

[Bluenose 50]

Given the upcoming election and almost certain further squeeze on government department's budgets perhaps something along the lines of "Have you discussed plans for cost recovery in relation to SAR helicopter tasking and, if so, what recipients of the service are likely to be targeted? "

[jimf671]

Given the upcoming election and almost certain further squeeze on government department's budgets perhaps something along the lines of "Have you discussed plans for cost recovery in relation to SAR helicopter tasking and, if so, what recipients of the service are likely to be targeted? "


Interesting. A very tiny dent in the cost of twenty 8/12 tonne 4000/5000shp helicopters with a crew of four could be made with a difficult-to-collect couple of million pounds but billions were saved by dropping the PFI and letting this contract.


Was there a particular format of political suicide that you thought might attract our legislators and their agency?

Scenario 1
We cannot transfer your premature infant to the correct unit hundreds of miles away by air because neither your household insurance nor your private health plan cover the cost.

Scenario 2
Please text your insurance certificate number to the following HMCG number before using this coastal path/beach.

Scenario 3
Our database shows that your NFU membership has lapsed and therefore your chest and head injuries will have to wait until MRT are mobilised to your location.

[Same again]

More importantly it is a public forum where people are free to express their opinions, if they upset you so much why are you here!!?

I started to read the posts here last year as I naively thought that I might learn something from the wealth of experience that individuals might be willing to share. I was disappointed to discover otherwise - as are others I work with.

I am quite sure that if I choose to visit these pages again some time in the future then the same sad few will still be complaining about something regardless.

Meanwhile those of us who are actually doing the job will continue to enjoy the most rewarding career in aviation. ;)

[Bluenose 50]

Jim
I’m not trying to compare the previous (aborted) contract with current one. Personally I didn’t and don’t see either as a PFI.I’m quite comfortable with Bristow operating the service on behalf of DfT and MCA and am confident they will do a very professional job and provide value for money for beleaguered taxpayers.
Previous SAR helicopter contracts to HMCG involved a fixed amount for the period of the contract with additional payments paid by HMCG to the contractor per mission to cover fuel, operating costs etc.Does the UK SAR (2015 onward) contract have the same arrangement?Get me an answer to this and I may expand further.
I’ll get back to you on scenarios 2 and 3 but as regards scenario 1 that is already covered and has been for many years i.e. the responsibility for premature infants lies with the NHS.Other categories are covered such as hospital to hospital transfers including ECMO. Requests for SAR helicopter assistance in this area is subject to certain criteria – one of which is whether the requesting authority – ambulance control and exceptionally a hospital - is prepared to cover costs. This currently applies to HMCG contract, RAF and RN SAR helicopters.Costs are recovered from the requesting authority – not mum and dad, household insurance or private health plan.

[jimf671]

This lot may help.

CONTRACT ON BUSINESS LINK (https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk:443/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&noticeid=947360&fs=true)

Pull down the Tender Documents menu to access contract documents with redactions.

Pricing Schedule is at Schedule 7.5.

Schedule 7.5 (https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk:443/~/docs/DocumentDownloadHandler.ashx?noticeDocumentId=73599&fileId=9bf6b657-3dda-402c-ac78-23d30174bb46)



I cannot say I have looked at 7.5 thoroughly. I have concerned myself chiefly with Specification: Schedule 2.1 (https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk:443/~/docs/DocumentDownloadHandler.ashx?noticeDocumentId=73610&fileId=1638afdc-4ac3-4787-a761-714aa1b4a346).

[[email protected]]

K 4.2.2.1.3 The Avionics Suite must
enable Aircrew to conduct aided visual
searches in low light conditions down to
2 mlux.
848 K 4.2.2.1.4 The Aircrew must be able to
view any enhanced (through amplified
intensity) external low light images
seen when conducting the aided visual
searches in a monochrome display.
conducive to effective
searching include:
ergonomic seats,
comfortable clothes,
rotatable seats, radios
etc. positioned at search
stations, climate control
etc.

2mlux is taken to be a
near moonless clear
night without cultural
lighting.
Full NVG compatibility of
the avionics suite would
be a minimum prerequisite
to achieving this
capability.
For the purposes of this
requirement, an aided
visual search might
include the use of:Flares
External Lighting
This requirement could
be met through the use
of NVG.
Any aircraft internal
displays used to meet
this requirement e.g.
avionics and FLIR, must
be fully NVG compatible
and not detract from the
use of helmet mounted
NVG. Oh dear - that doesn't appear to have been met yet or is someone using the 'flares or external lighting' sentence as a get out of jail card?

[[email protected]]

Meanwhile those of us who are actually doing the job will continue to enjoy the most rewarding career in aviation. and, when you have done more than 5 mins of it, you might come to realise why some of us care so much about the SAR service.

[Same again]

Oh quite a few years actually Crab, and many more to come in a different uniform and a shiny new helicopter :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

and many more to come in a different uniform

That makes him a crab.

[[email protected]]

FeD - :ok:

[jimf671]

... and a shiny new helicopter :ok:


Bet you don't miss the smell of burning. :E

[llamaman]

From Same Again;

I am quite sure that if I choose to visit these pages again some time in the future then the same sad few will still be complaining about something regardless.


Didn't take you too long. For 'some time in the future' read 'tomorrow'!

[Squeaks]

I started to read the posts here last year as I naively thought that I might learn something from the wealth of experience that individuals might be willing to share. I was disappointed to discover otherwise - as are others I work with.

I am quite sure that if I choose to visit these pages again some time in the future then the same sad few will still be complaining about something regardless.

Whereas your contribution to Rotorheads, mostly on this thread, has been a continual round of complaining about and abusing others. If you had actually provided some helpful, valid or factual responses to questions then I would support your thoughts but not once have you done so.

Sarcasm should never be confused with wit; you seem to have a disproportionate ratio within your posts :=

[jimf671]

Fastnet 79 on BBC Radio 4 this morning. "The Reunion: The Fastnet Race Disaster".

Available online (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05q5ynq).

[chute packer]

The contract to me reads that NVG compatible cockpit is required, but NVGs themselves arent, flares/lighting/FLIR all satisfy the night time low light requirements.

[[email protected]]

But, as anyone who has done searches at night will tell you, NVG is the only way to safely fly the aircraft and give good search coverage.

FLIR isn't light amplification, it uses a different part of the EM spectrum and is often useless when there is moisture in the air or when there is no thermal contrast.

Flares and external lighting are nigh on useless looking for a person, especially an injured one who may not be able to attract your attention.

What does work is a combination of NVG, white light and a back up of FLIR - nothing else will match the capability of the milSAR that is being replaced.

[llamaman]

chute packer has hit the nail on the head. The MOD and UK PLC have been undone (again) by a contract with inherent weaknesses. Despite all the promises of a like-for-like or even better service that is simply not the case. Trying to provide effective overland SAR at night without a full NVG capability is, quite frankly, cuffing it. As proven by the number of times in recent history that the Lossie flight have been tasked into Stornoway's patch to complete rescues that could only be completed by having crews fully qualified to utilise NVGs.

And for those that see this as just another whinge all I say is that (so far) a UK SAR service has stood-up that does not fulfill the criteria of being equally capable as the one it is replacing. I hope this will not last long.

[shetlander]

As proven by the number of times in recent history that the Lossie flight have been tasked into Stornoway's patch to complete rescues that could only be completed by having crews fully qualified to utilise NVGs.



REALLY? From my recollection Lossie were very reluctant to carry out any rescue in recent times. Unless it was relatively good weather, they had a crew to do so or they generally felt like it.

The ARCC cherry picked the taskings for them...

It's amazing that we now have a S92 carrying out taskings that 137 would have and did turn down.

[jimf671]

NIGHT VISION IMAGING SYSTEMS

The contract Technical Specification has requirements that can be met with the current state of technology only by using NVG. It has always appeared to me, from the first reading back in 2012, that the spec was written in an effort not to exclude appropriately capable alternative forms of technology that might develop between now and 2026. :8

Does the contractor have NVG for this new contract?
Yes. :ok:

How do I know?
Because I have been asking them specific questions about this for two years and all of the answers are consistent with the specifying, purchase, training and use of NVG. :suspect:

How would I understand?
Partly because I can read so therefore I do: there is plenty info out there. Partly because I am a professionally qualified engineer. Partly because I am a user of night vision devices and have used a range of such devices during recent years. :8

Is it all going perfectly?
No. Inverness doesn't have the right aircraft and had its programmes further delayed by storm damage to its base. Other bases will be affected by aircraft and base problems that could contribute to training delays. :{

What is going on?
Well what do you think is going on? Read the ADS-B tracks same as I do and it will be pretty obvious. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:





“There is a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” (It is the duty of the rest of the crew to explain the last bit to the winchman.)

[Cabe LeCutter]

Shetlander

That was a rather inflammatory statement criticizing both the ARCC staff and the aircrew at Lossiemouth. I suggest that personal digs are not warranted on this thread, there has been enough mud slinging in the past.:=:=

I suggest that you substantiate your post or withdraw it.

Heads down, look out for the flak

[[email protected]]

Does the contractor have NVG for this new contract?
Yes. We know that Jim - but why aren't they being used and when will they be operational with them?

Shetlander - the ARCCK does NOT cherry-pick jobs:ugh:

[[email protected]]

So, apparently the RAF had to do a transfer from the Isle of Wight last night of a sick child. Nothing unusual in that except that Lee on Solent would normally be expected to do that job.

Oh dear, it seems that Bristow won't fly anyone with meningitis:ugh: Brave new world!

[Jerry Can]

Lee is CHC Crab. I wouldn't have thought that would be a company policy. Maybe it was a crew decision. We weren't there were we?

[P3 Bellows]

Oh dear, it seems that Bristow won't fly anyone with meningitis Brave new world!


Get your facts straight Crab. I know you don't like Bristows cos they didn't give you a job, but this has nothing to do with them.

Your bitterness is leaking again :=

[jimf671]

... Bristow ...

Oops. Bad drills Crab.

[jimf671]

CHC SAR in the UK is a small operation and due to get smaller. If an entire crew were quarantined, would they still be able to fill the shifts?

[212man]

Crab, I'm sure you can rest easy now - hope is at hand: Latest News - bristowgroup.com (http://bristowgroup.com/bristow-news/latest-news/2015/bristow-group-names-carl-dixon-director-government/)

[jimf671]

Oh sh1t. Hasn't JHC done enough damage.

[shetlander]

So, apparently the RAF had to do a transfer from the Isle of Wight last night of a sick child. Nothing unusual in that except that Lee on Solent would normally be expected to do that job.

Oh dear, it seems that Bristow won't fly anyone with meningitis Brave new world!


It could have been another tasking but the crew from Lee certainly performed a medevac from IOW to Southampton General Last night. Call sign Rescue104.

[jimf671]

India Juliet, 2301h - 2342h, IoW - Southampton General.

G-CGIJ - CHC Helicopter - Aircraft info and flight history - Flightradar24 (http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/g-cgij/#607e8a1)

And similar the night before.

[P3 Bellows]

What's the matter Crab? Cat got your tongue for once ;)

[[email protected]]

What's the matter Crab? Cat got your tongue for once no, just checking my sources and I clearly owe Bristow an apology since it had nothing to do with them.

However Rescue 125 did do an overnight medtransfer from the IOW from Wattisham so there is some misinformation somewhere.

My own fault for posting on the outside of a few beers after a busy week.

Sorry Bristow.:ok:

[shetlander]

However Rescue 125 did do an overnight medtransfer from the IOW from Wattisham so there is some misinformation somewhere.


Well if they did the local SAR flight and Coastguard Center are totally unaware and there is no incident recorded.

You would like to think that if it is true one of those would have been aware.

[jimf671]

All great news for those living on the IoW that providers are queueing up to look after them. :ok:

However, since R125 doesn't lay an AIS or ADS-B track and since the ambulance service or ARCC are the ones who would know the full picture of IoW medevacs, and they will not be answering to pprune, let's leave this one.

[Norfolk Inchance]

From my reliable sources, Wattisham did indeed transfer the child with meningitis from the IoW. The reason for this is the 139 is classed as an open cockpit aircraft (in so much as it is not suitably isolated from the cabin), and therefore the carriage of casualties with a contagious condition is prohibited. Not sure if this is applicable to the 189

[P3 Bellows]

The reason for this is the 139 is classed as an open cockpit aircraft (in so much as it is not suitably isolated from the cabin), and therefore the carriage of casualties with a contagious condition is prohibited.

Does that mean the back-seaters have to climb into the cockpit of a Sea King and pull the curtain across?

[[email protected]]

Just open the cockpit windows, crack the back door and you have a forced air system to keep the nasty germs away from the pilots;)

Well it works when someone in the cockpit farts;)

Can't quite believe such a pathetic excuse for not using the 139 - I'm sure the crews are rather embarrassed.

[ericferret]

"""""Just open the cockpit windows, crack the back door and you have a forced air system to keep the nasty germs away from the pilots

Well it works when someone in the cockpit farts

Can't quite believe such a pathetic excuse for not using the 139 - I'm sure the crews are rather embarrassed.""""
[email protected]



Opening the windows and doors and blowing the bacteria all round the aircraft is probably the stupidest thing you could do.

The piece below and the link about a young man from our area who contracted the disease when under a year old say it all. The effect of a crew member or a member of the maintenance team taking this back to their own family does not bare thinking about.
Maybe somebody did a risk assessment and got it right.
I doubt the crews have anything to be embarrassed about.

The Responder’s Guide to Meningitis
BY KEVIN T. COLLOPY, BA, FP-C, CCEMT-P, NREMT-P, WEMT, SCOTT R. SNYDER, BS, NREMT-P, SEAN M. KIVLEHAN, MD, MPH, NREMT-P ON DEC 1, 2012

"Following the transport of any suspected meningitis patient, regardless of etiology, or the interfacility transport of a confirmed bacterial meningitis case, thorough decontamination of the ambulance and transport stretcher is essential. There are many commercial chemical cleaning solutions; however, a 1-to-100 bleach-to-water solution is effective as well. If you use a commercial solution, be sure to follow the manufacturer’s cleaning recommendations.

Inside the ambulance, every horizontal and vertical surface needs proper cleaning. The need for this was highlighted in a 2008 study that tested for the presence of bacteria on the surfaces of ambulance patient compartments and found that all surfaces tested positive not only for bacterial growth, but for four identified bacteria prone to antibiotic resistance.8 Then in 2009, 1 of 3 EMS provider stethoscopes tested positive for MRSA-resistant bacteria.9 The message: Don’t forget to clean your stethoscope as well. Failure to properly decontaminate surfaces a patient touches risks infecting other patients."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178263/Brave-year-old-Harvey-lost-legs-arm-meningitis-takes-ballet.html

MENINGITIS survivor Harvey Phillips is getting a big kick from being in his football squad.

The battling football fan is a member of Louth Old Boys under-8s team – seven years after courageously surviving the meningococcal strain of the disease.

Despite having his lower limbs and part of his arms amputated by surgeons, Harvey has enjoyed being a team member and has completed his first season with the Old Boys.

He took part in a football tournament organised by the club which attracted 1,200 people to Louth's London Road Pavilion.

On the first day of the two-day event, 75 teams took part, including Harvey's squad.

His dad Darren said: "They have had a great season and Harvey has loved being able to play football with his friends."

[[email protected]]

So opening the windows and doors and blowing the bacteria all round the aircraft is probably the stupidest thing you could do. no,,,really??? The;)is supposed to indicate a joke:ugh:

[ericferret]

Suggest you read the Daily Mail link and then tell me how f*cki*g funny it is.
So the bit about the crews being embarrassed and this being a apathetic excuse is funny as well.

There is only one thing pathetic and embarrassing about this situation try looking in the mirror.

[[email protected]]

Ah, a Daily Mail reader - that explains the lack of sense of humour and the need to take offence by proxy for events you had nothing to do with.

No one said meningitis was funny - it's a horrible disease especially for children - how would you feel if your child was sick and an ambulance (or in this case a helicopter) crew refused to transport them to hospital?

Disinfecting a SAR aircraft is a normal procedure since all sorts of bodily fluids end up in the back as well as on the crew.

What is pathetic is that the reason for not taking the child was the lack of a separate cockpit, something I don't think any SAR or Air Ambulance helicopter has.

[jimf671]

... the lack of a separate cockpit, something I don't think any SAR or Air Ambulance helicopter has.


Agusta Westland AW189

[[email protected]]

That'll boost the CRM no end:ugh:

[shetlander]

That'll boost the CRM no end

Well it can't get any worse than the seaking! ;)

[[email protected]]

At least on the Sea King the rear crew can come up and punch the pilots if they do anything stupid:ok:

[snaggletooth]

Well it can't get any worse than the seaking!

Care to elaborate on or substantiate that statement Shetlander? :=

[[email protected]]

Perhaps Shetlander only has experience of RN Sea Kings;)

[jimf671]

Oh here we go, they've started again. :ugh:

Quick, change the subject!



Morayshire care home visit Bristow Inverness. (https://heavywhalley.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/2016-heavy-don-and-sheldan-april.jpg) :ok: :E

[snaggletooth]

I think it's a valid question Jim. Do you disagree?

[The SAR RC]

Shetlander
Your inexperience shines through with virtually every post you make. I very much doubt you have any hours flying the Sea King yet you feel qualified to make such ridiculous statements. Just stop it.

[shetlander]

Dangle the bait and someone always bites.

You are all right. No hours on an ageing seaking, however it doesn't stop me casting my opinion. If it's not a shared opinion then that's not my problem.

If I quote Crab...

The ;) is supposed to indicate a joke :ugh:

Will await the backlash from those who think they are high and mighty....:E

[The SAR RC]

No hours on Sea Kings yet you regularly feel happy to impugn those who have contributed to the aircraft’s success over many decades.
As life goes on young man you may learn to build some subtlety into your supposed fishing trips. Grow up.

[Norfolk Inchance]

Getting back to the debate a wee while back; the 'open cockpit' description comes from the CAA (I believe) and prohibits the crews carrying certain medical cases. I may be incorrect in this assumption though. There is a distinct difference from contamination with bodily fluids, a common problem for all SAR aircraft, and contamination with an airborne virus/bacteria. Transfer from the IoW by air is 5 mins, but on a ferry it's less than 30 mins. I could understand the necessity to go by air if it was from Barra, or a rig or the Isles of Scilly, but an ambulance on a ferry across the Solent ain't that bad.
The AW189 has a partition from the cabin (similar to that found on a London Black cab- the jokes have already started ".....you never guess who I had onboard last night, guv'nor), due to a CAA requirement in order to use NVG in the cockpit. or so i believe

[snaggletooth]

Shetlander - you admit to having zero hours on the Sea King yet feel qualified to opine about the quality of CRM on that platform. Priceless. :D

[Sevarg]

Crab to get back to airflow in the Seaking. Funny on the S61n the airflow was from the cabin to cockpit, not at all good if there are bugs floating around. Not good on rig runs with 19 or so curries fermenting in the back, one of the better reasons for suiting the pax.;)

[shetlander]

you admit to having zero hours on the Sea King yet feel qualified to opine about the quality of CRM on that platform. Priceless.


It may be Priceless but it is no different to those casting their opinions of Civy SAR having never worked on an aircraft type or even for those companies in question.

[snaggletooth]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[shetlander]

On a brighter (hopefully) note...

Anyone know any details on the All White AW189 that flew into Norwich last night from Dyce? Reg: I-LCIB, is it another SAR cab prior to a visit to the paint shop.

[[email protected]]

Norfolk - it would be interesting to know if it is a CAA thing or a company policy - either way it hasn't been thought out - it might protect the pilots but what about the rear crew? Unless everyone in contact with the casualty is in the 'ebola-style' sealed suits there will always be a risk and that kit is not standard on a SAR cab.

The problem with meningitis is that often the diagnosis is made late and in a child that can mean that every minute between diagnosis and correct treatment is vital - it tends to cause infection in the limbs first if I remember correctly.

Are we about to go down a path where the crew are not allowed to be put at any risk when performing their duties? It certainly doesn't sound like SAR as I know it.

[jimf671]

On a brighter (hopefully) note...

Anyone know any details on the All White AW189 that flew into Norwich last night from Dyce? Reg: I-LCIB, is it another SAR cab prior to a visit to the paint shop.


Only one SAR cab was due to be made in Italy and therefore carry an Italian delivery registration. That one was G-MCGM (formerly I-EASN). The next one was G-MCGN made at Yeovil. G-MCGO to G-MCGT are already on the register with Yeovil serial numbers.

There is an AW Demo aircraft I-LCIH that had been flying around North Sea oil & gas customers months ago. Could it have been that one?

[shetlander]

According to Norwich movements;

Display Movements (http://egshmov.co.uk/egshmov/dispmovyest.php)

21:37 I-LCIB Agusta AW189 ARR White overall with AW titles and red regn

So you may be right as it seems to be White with AW Tiles.

[Fareastdriver]

The next one was G-MCGN made at Yeovil

They will be different sizes than the ones made in Italy

[[email protected]]

Is that like the garage doors they used to make - same jigs but different fits?;)

[Fareastdriver]

We had to ground all our Pumas in about 1973 so that all the doors, doghouses, etc, etc could be refitted back to their original airframes because none of them fitted other aircraft.

When they were building the Nimrods the Comet fuselages being delivered varied in length by up to two feet. That made it quite difficult to strap the MRA bit on underneath.

[Thomas coupling]

What's this I hear about Bristow turning down night jobs due to lack of NVG inland?:{

[Spanish Waltzer]

Oh TC....you'll go to hell for that one..:mad::suspect:

[edwardspannerhands]

Not sure why MR are beating their gums over this. Dry your eyes Princess... Any Team Leader worth their salt will understand that SAFETY will always take precedence - especially in TRAINING scenarios :ugh:

Search helicopter operator slammed by rescue leader over training
Helicopter operator Bristow slammed by Cairngorm Mountain Rescue leader | Aberdeen & North | News (http://news.stv.tv/north/318671-helicopter-operator-bristow-slammed-by-cairngorm-mountain-rescue-leader/)

[Anarchy Fan]

So Bristows are using the "triggered lightning" excuse in the SAR world now are they ?? .. I laughed my ass off when I saw that on the News. Bristows playing the safety card ?? .. They have played that a few times offshore and it always seems to be when our flight is already very delayed. or they wont fly to a rig that another operator will. Spent my last three years in the RAF in the ARCC and the years since offshore dealing with them a lot.

I am just happy a lot of the crews are ex military. Thats the only thing that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling about them having the SAR contract.

[[email protected]]

Although it seems from both the caa and met office websites and studies, that triggered lightning is almost exclusively a North Sea, over-water phenomenon with no recorded events in the mountainous areas.

Perhaps someone being a little over-cautious and never heard the adage - 'if it ain't raining, it ain't training';)

[P3 Bellows]

Perhaps someone being a little over-cautious and never heard the adage - 'if it ain't raining, it ain't training'

Crab, don't be a prat all your life. Perhaps you should give Bond Helicopters in Aberdeen a call and see how they are getting on with their insurance claim for an S92 that was written off just before Christmas due to triggered lightning.

It is not an over water phenomenon. There have been the most strikes of triggered lightning over the North Sea because that is where most of the helicopters fly but it is by no means an over water issue. Why do I think you knew that anyway.......

Is it really worth the risk of writing off a multi million pound helicopter just so an MR exercise can take place. No. But they will take the risk for an operational flight and that is as it should be.

P3

[llamaman]

There should be no surprise whatsoever that the appetite for risk and the manner in which risk is managed has shifted as a result of changing from a military to a commercial SAR provider. Sometimes this will be a good thing, sometimes it won't. It all depends on your perspective (casualty on the hill v aircraft insurer, for example). Whereas lines have often been blurred in the past you can bet your bottom dollar there will no longer be any ambiguity.

Unfortunately none of this is quantifiable so political statements that herald the new service as a 'better' service are impossible to disprove. Likewise, certain parties may argue that some military SAR missions in the past flirted with unnecessary levels of risk. Again, impossible to prove. The debate will continue ad infinitum.

[[email protected]]

It is not an over water phenomenon.
Really?
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2561/20130521HelicopterTriggeredLightningStrikeForecastingPresent ation.pdf
Investigating and predicting helicopter-triggered lightning strikes - Met Office (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/news/helicopter-triggered-lightning)

And in the busy North Sea, there are only 1 -3 reports of triggered lightning each year! You've more chance of winning the lottery!

Perhaps you should give Bond Helicopters in Aberdeen a call and see how they are getting on with their insurance claim for an S92 that was written off just before Christmas due to triggered lightning. And just how long has Aberdeen been in the mountains?

Perhaps you could do some research before you start name-calling - again!

[P3 Bellows]

Crab, 1 question then...... Why do the Met Office produce a triggered lightning forecast that covers the overland area and not stop forecasting at the coast?

Answer that if you can

PS perhaps I should have said "it's not JUST and over water phenomena"

[212man]

PS perhaps I should have said "it's not JUST an over water phenomena"

I think most of us knew that's what you meant. It's pretty obvious! :rolleyes:

[[email protected]]

Crab, 1 question then...... Why do the Met Office produce a triggered lightning forecast that covers the overland area and not stop forecasting at the coast?
Perhaps because it is feasible, unlikely but feasible, that the conditions that will give the remote possibility of triggered lightning over the North Sea might, at a stretch drift inland.

Not ones to be caught out (after the promised barbeque summer and the 80's hurricane) they would rather forecast a possibility (no matter how remote) that triggered lightning may be encountered (despite the lack of reports or other evidence), the Met Office are just covering their a*ses so no-one can blame them if it does happen.

A bit like Prob 30 of TS which means prob 70 of no TS.

If Bristow had just said the weather was unsuitable for MR training it would have been much simpler.

[jimf671]

I think there are a couple of points that need highlighting.


TRIGGERED LIGHTENING: NEW SCIENCE
Although we knew some time ago that helicopters get hit by lightening, resulting in AAIB and CAA reports, it was only during 2012 and 2013 that academic work was published that allowed an understanding of the mechanism of these events and prediction of high risk. :8

Until recently, no mountain rescue training had ever been cancelled due to risk levels for triggered lightening.

Last month at Kintail, a mountain rescue first aid training day with hillside scenarios had to do without helicopter support because of the risk level for triggered lightening. :ugh:


HELICOPTER TRAINING: BRISTOW INVERNESS
Lossiemouth has always served the busiest Scottish MRT. This was where the action was. You may have recently heard the radio interview with John Prince during which he described how he had wanted a posting to Lossiemouth for that very reason. :ok:

Bristow Inverness inherits that mantle. Unfortunately, it does so with both the AW189 problem and the storm damage problem. This has resulted in serious delays. Initial training for MRT and others, during January, was cancelled and several other such training events have also been cancelled since. :{

While teams in the west with S-92 experience have taken a step back, some of those in the east, like Cairngorm, have still failed to get the training that they require. It appears that a number of factors have conspired to cause that problem. Undoubtedly, one of those is vital aircrew training that has similarly fallen behind the planned advance.

From where I sit, it is better that they catch up with their NVIS training but for Cairngorm, having much of the team still never having trained with a modern helicopter three weeks into service provision and in the fourth month since the start of the work-up period, must be extremely frustrating.

[Hot_LZ]

Not very often that I pipe up but I think it is warranted on this occasion.

Back in December on a rotation through Sumburgh I was grounded for two days while trying to get guys offshore. Why? Triggered lightning and a lot of red bands of it. Did the SAR guys I was sharing an office fly? Of course they did. Ok they weren't training due to TL but they were quick enough getting themselves out the door when the klaxon went off to provide top cover to a few fishing vessels that were struggling near Orkney. Quite interesting to hear also that a precautionary landing was conducted for 10 minutes when St Elmo decided to distribute his fire over parts of the aircraft.

Good call in my eyes.

LZ

[[email protected]]

Hot LZ, as you state, TL is an issue overwater and Sumburgh is in the middle of plenty of that so their decision is quite understood and eminently valid.

However, the polar maritime air flow that gives the potential conditions for TL relies on the airmass being unstable with respect to sea temperature which, last weekend at least, was higher than the inland temperatures.

So, even if the wind was in the right direction to affect Inverness itself, it is extremely unlikely that the conditions for TL would be found even a short way inland because the land temperatures were too low to sustain the instability of the airmass.

Aberdeen is vulnerable - as proven - but cancelling mountain training on the basis of an extremely remote chance???

[P3 Bellows]

Aberdeen is vulnerable - as proven - but cancelling mountain training on the basis of an extremely remote chance???

I can see it now... Met forecast puts large blob of red triggered lightning over the land area where MR exercise is to take place.... Crew read this load of tosh ( as if they would) and think it's OK cos Crab says it will be fine. Let's crack on.

Flash; Bang; Cer-ching.......... Woops

You can't just ignore a forecast. Perhaps you did in your previous life just for shi-s and giggles.

[HeliComparator]

Triggered lightning is nothing to do with overwater or not. It can occur when mixed-phase precipitation occurs (ie rain + hail or snow) which obviously tends to occur around zero centigrade. This is because the two phases have different densities and hence buoyancies and hence vertical speeds. The speed differential creates friction and static charge. Around zero C the electric field strength is maximised and the ionisation caused by engines and/or rotor blade static discharge can create a conductive path.

It only seems to be overwater because offshore IFR helicopters spend most of their time offshore, and often close to zero C in winter. There has never been a triggered strike in the summer (May to Oct -ish)

Strikes are costly but have always been extant. The current met office modelling system unfortunately has no accounting for false positive warnings - it's a self-fulfilling prophesy that it shows a warning and no one flys so no one gets struck. Personally I don't think it works very well and obviously from the met office's point of view it is better to have a false warning than a lack of warning. Taken to extreme of course if it gave a permanent warning no-one would ever get struck. OK it's not as bad as that but it is crude.

However I think Bristow is perhaps being a bit foolish in citing this reason for not doing the training, even though I'm sure we all accept that it would fly on a real shout. And playing the "safety" card is BS. It's about the cost. No-one has ever been injured from a triggered lightning strike, although one lot did get wet socks many moons ago with inadequately certified tail rotor blades.

Anyway, don't SAR boys all get vertigo above 200'AGL? It seems highly unlikely that a triggered strike could occur at low level. Too much irrational corporate risk-averseness I'm sorry to say, and too many managers who don't actually understand the science.

[jimf671]

CRAB

Check out the Met Office work on this.
Investigating and predicting helicopter-triggered lightning strikes - Met Office (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/news/helicopter-triggered-lightning)
Theire example map clearly shows overland hot-spots.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/image/3/s/rn_radar_L2.jpg

After our cancellation due to triggered lightning risk I have had a look at work on this phenomenon and hope to get someone to do a piece on the subject for the Scottish Mountain Rescue magazine at some stage.


HELICOMPARATOR

Vertigo above 200'AGL? Wouldn't surprise me! However, whereas a Sea King has always tended to be flown through the glens, in an S-92 there is more of a tendency for folk to just fly across the top.

The science is still new. I would hope that in 5 years time there will be a finer honed forecast.

[[email protected]]

Triggered lightning is nothing to do with overwater or not. It can occur when mixed-phase precipitation occurs (ie rain + hail or snow) which obviously tends to occur around zero centigrade. This is because the two phases have different densities and hence buoyancies and hence vertical speeds. The speed differential creates friction and static charge. Around zero C the electric field strength is maximised and the ionisation caused by engines and/or rotor blade static discharge can create a conductive path.

Yet SAR helicopters have been operating in the mountains in, around and below the zero degree isotherm in mixed precipitation for many years but there are no reports of triggered lightning.

The met office and caa pages highlight that overland there is usually sufficient electrical potential to trigger a lightning strike without needing a helicopter to initiate it whereas, over the sea, the cloud can be charged but not sufficiently to discharge cloud to cloud or cloud to ground - that is when the helo comes along with a vastly different electrical polarity and triggers the strike.

Jim, that radar picture shows showers both over sea and overland and rain rate - nothing new there - the fact that a helicopter suffered a lightning strike in the bounded box ( note that it is over the sea) does not mean that every shower gives the same risk.

[[email protected]]

Investigation and prediction of helicopter-triggered lightning over the North Sea - Wilkinson - 2012 - Meteorological Applications - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/met.1314/full)

All you need to know about TL - strangely no mention whatsoever about overland............

The opening line Helicopter-triggered lightning is a phenomenon which affects operations over the North Sea during the winter.

[212man]

strangely no mention whatsoever about overland............


Probably because it was commissioned to look at operations over the North Sea.....but, you knew that.

[jimf671]

Well yes Crab. You have a point. One that fits with my scenario of the SK flying through the glens. And where we may be at present is "We have a S-92, we can fly anywhere. Oops, no we can't."


It looks to me like we need more science done. (Not going to hold my breath.)


In relation to the recent Kintail Ex, like all NW teams we are often using an aircraft that flies 20 minutes over the Minch to get here so over water flight is part of the overall scenario.

[HeliComparator]

Yet SAR helicopters have been operating in the mountains in, around and below the zero degree isotherm in mixed precipitation for many years but there are no reports of triggered lightning.

The met office and caa pages highlight that overland there is usually sufficient electrical potential to trigger a lightning strike without needing a helicopter to initiate it whereas, over the sea, the cloud can be charged but not sufficiently to discharge cloud to cloud or cloud to ground - that is when the helo comes along with a vastly different electrical polarity and triggers the strike.


Well firstly, if you look at the number of offshore oil support flights / hours per year, and then the number of triggered lightning strikes - around 1 or 2 a year on average IIRC, and then look at the number of onshore mil SAR flights / hours per year, you will see than on probability alone it is not surprising that there has not been a mil SAR triggered lightning strike.

I also think that a low flying helicopter is less likely to be a trigger because if there is that much electric field strength near the ground, an air to ground strike is likely to happen anyway. But I think for a heli flying at say 3000' agl the probabilities are much the same onshore as offshore. Yes there is a throwaway line about "usually" onshore, but I don't see any science behind that view.

Personally I think it was a mistake to decline training because of this risk, since there would inevitably be a publicity backlash, however I was in the Cairngorms on Sunday afternoon and there was one massive snowstorm all afternoon which closed the Lecht and the A96 and that for me would have been good enough reason to stay cosy in Ops unless I really had to go flying!

[[email protected]]

Probably because it was commissioned to look at operations over the North Sea.....but, you knew that. yes I did, because that was where the phenomenon was reported. Therefore extending that risk to overland ops was unscientific and using it as an excuse for cancelling MR training was poor judgement.

As HC points out, the weather was crap anyway so that would have been a far better justification.

[212man]

...because that was where the phenomenon was reported

I think HC addressed that quite well Well firstly, if you look at the number of offshore oil support flights / hours per year, and then the number of triggered lightning strikes - around 1 or 2 a year on average IIRC, and then look at the number of onshore mil SAR flights / hours per year, you will see than on probability alone it is not surprising that there has not been a mil SAR triggered lightning strike

But, I agree with your last point :ok:

[mmitch]

New SAR base at Lydd is under construction.
Building under way for new Lydd SAR facilities - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-32497301)
mmitch.

[[email protected]]

All leaves Humberside looking very isolated up the East Coast.

[Thomas coupling]

Oh - that went down with a fizz and sigh.......
I'll ask again because people may not know that allegedly Bristow are refusing inland SAR @ night if it requires NVD's. True or False?

And are they also refusing future EMS contam transport in open cockpit helicopters?

:=

[[email protected]]

That can't be true TC, I have been told so often here that the new Service will be so much better and that all I have been doing is scaremongering about operational capability:ugh:

[shetlander]

Might be totally unrelated but does anyone know why Bristows EC225 G-ZZSJ has been performing deck winching and wet winching out of Dyce?

http://i61.tinypic.com/2mgtbpk.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/k1uexx.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/wjcqi1.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

Practising Public Transport winching. It is quite normal to winch transfer personnel to and from tankers and loading buoys. The difference is that the aircraft has to be below HOGE, OEI weight at all times during the operation

[jimf671]

Bristow Caernarfon starting up.

G-MCGJ on site but not yet showing up on AIS or ADS-B, suggesting that the radio fit is not yet complete.

G-MCGK arrived at Dyce a few days ago and is presumably there for a couple of weeks for engineering work.



G-CIJX and G_CIJW are still at Norwich and often out around Cromer. No sign of a move to Lydd yet.

[[email protected]]

Not much sign of a 189 yet then???:)

[jimf671]

Not much sign of a 189 yet then???:)


Unfortunately, that aircraft is now not likely to deploy at the start of service at any of the bases that replace military flights.

Eleven S-92A and some AW139s allows Bristow to equip nine bases without rushing the AW189. S-92A will stand in for AW189 in Scotland and AW139 in England and Wales. The original plan for availability levels that used one aircraft per base and spares at strategic locations appears to be back, for now.

AW139 does not fulfil the requirements of a Lot 2 aircraft for number of survivors.

On the plus side, it is looking like the AW189 will enter service fully equipped and certified. And, while we are waiting for the AW189, we still have new aircraft, a new regulatory framework, 78 managed transition aircrew and lots of new role equipment.

It is what it is.

Could have been worse. Could have been a MoD procurement. :E

[Thomas coupling]

True Jim...true. In EU land, all prospective governments for the replacement SeaKing (the NH90) are facing revolts or cynicism about the new a/c as it is clearly unfit for purpose. Some countries have rolled over, like the belgians, others are fighting hard to prevent or atleast delay its introduction like the FGN. The practitioners do not want this lame duck but government procurers think otherwise. Meanwhile in the UK, we have the wildcat and the merlin as newcomers and one of those is incapable of being sent front line because of its lack of resiliance against enemy fire and subsequent repair costs. £40 million a pop and used only as a support vehicle???? Good old government.

Bristow have gone from zero to hero in what - 12 months, maybe less. Could you see the MoD doing that - yeah, right:ugh:

[John Eacott]

There was discussion earlier about the AW139 and unprepared surfaces. Queensland Rescue did a medical call to a farm in Grantham. Interesting landings ;)

https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11150678_1653429238209334_8408334932741467452_n.jpg?oh=d3208 f9225c83137baa7eddae4e98e39&oe=5609EA0F

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10986683_1653429261542665_4238834473363065195_n.jpg?oh=32e67 8db713261f4c4520e34f37013de&oe=55CF9D5D&__gda__=1442887437_80609ae93ce81aa1c1423d5eec4866e6

[Ian Corrigible]

Not much sign of a 189 yet then???:)
Janes (http://www.janes.com/article/51446/certification-issues-delaying-aw189-entry-into-service-for-uk-sar) is reporting that the delay is due to "de-icing issues affecting certification," with EIS pushed back from July to November. As jimf671 has already noted, "This means BHL will instead field the older AW139 as an interim solution when operations at the Manston and St Athan sites commence on 1 July and 1 October, respectively."

I/C

[lowfat]

MCA expects AW189s to enter service from October - News - Shephard (http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/mca-expects-aw189s-enter-service-october/)

[ABZSpotter]

G-MCGK arrived at Dyce a few days ago and is presumably there for a couple of weeks for engineering work.

Not sure where you get your info from, but it isn't at Aberdeen.

[[email protected]]

"de-icing issues affecting certification," so what about the trumpet fanfare earlier in the year when the 189 achieved certification for O&G?

More obfuscation because the de-icing wasn't included in that 'certification'?

What about the certification of the SAR modes as that won't have been included in the O&G process?

So the rumour is no NVG capability until September and we know that the 139 doesn't meet the contract spec - any financial penalties being awarded?

Nice pictures John - does the 189 have similar ground clearance issues????? Great choice for a SAR helicopter!

[jimf671]

Not sure where you get your info from, but it isn't at Aberdeen.

Listed by a spotter.

(On the UK register. Flown by maker at Coatsville over 5 weeks ago. Shown as dereg USA 1st May, for export to the UK.)

[jimf671]

so what about the trumpet fanfare earlier in the year when the 189 achieved certification for O&G?

A step along the way?


More obfuscation because the de-icing wasn't included in that 'certification'?

On FIPS, the work is said to be done and the rest is paperwork. The aircraft is now expected to enter service with FIPS. :ok:


What about the certification of the SAR modes as that won't have been included in the O&G process?

The story goes that OpEval reveals no significant issues for AFCS SAR modes and there has only been minor configuration. But is it true? Well, the people pitching that story certainly don't want it to be Groundhog Day?


So the rumour is no NVG capability until September ...

September? What aircraft? What location? (Doesn't get dark here until August.) :confused:


... and we know that the 139 doesn't meet the contract spec - any financial penalties being awarded?

Don't know. (SEP Field in place. :E)


Nice pictures John - does the 189 have similar ground clearance issues????? Great choice for a SAR helicopter!

YES. Note the clearances shown at about 1 min 50s in the following video
https://vimeo.com/127840616
This is GN, which is the first Yeovil-built production AW189 in SAR config that includes the long range tank (that took too long, and was too heavy, and is too close to the ground).

This is an ongoing concern for Land SAR operations. :ugh:


=====================================


There is a report of Richard Parkes (Director, Maritime Operations, MCA) stating November for AW189 in service. That is credible.

I shall put January in my diary, shall I? For Lydd but not Prestwick. :eek:

(Wets finger and holds in the wind.) August 2016 for Inverness? :E

[jimf671]

Listed by a spotter.

(On the UK register. Flown by maker at Coatsville over 5 weeks ago. Shown as dereg USA 1st May, for export to the UK.)

G-MCGK on ADS-B, arr Bristow, Dyce, 1945Z.

All 11 S-92 delivered.

[Sevarg]

What a pity it was not to be a one type contract, all S92 might even have kept Crab quiet.
Why do I always get that feeling of doom when I see Westland on anything, I wouldn't even buy one of there garage doors:{:{

[Ian Corrigible]

Six Sea Kings from RNAS Culdrose performed a lap of honor today, ahead of the type's retirement:

Sea King flypast celebrates 76th anniversary of 771 Naval Air Squadron (http://www.westbriton.co.uk/time-iconic-helicopter-flypast-Cornwall-morning/story-26546556-detail/story.html)

I/C

[Sumpor Stylee]

Rumour Bristow being extra cheeky and using SAR 92 in North Sea to fly their own engineers out to rigs with U/S oil and gas aircraft on deck.......:=

[jimf671]

Are you the same guy that used to hang around outside the butcher's in Orkney?

[P3 Bellows]

Well Sumpor (age 4) if I was one of the rig crew and there was a u/s aircraft blocking the helideck which was my preferred method of evacuation sould the rig have a problem then anything that helps clear the blockage must surely be a good thing. I'm sure the same would apply to another operators aircraft whatever the colour.

But if you are age 4 then you would probably not see that :rolleyes:

[[email protected]]

Providing it wasn't the first standby aircraft then it's not really anyone else's business what they do.

[llamaman]

Providing it wasn't the first standby aircraft then it's not really anyone else's business what they do.

It was. However there are occasions where military cabs are utilised for non-SAR tasks (e.g. compassionate cases).

[Norfolk Inchance]

Six Sea Kings from RNAS Culdrose performed a lap of honor today, ahead of the type's retirement:

Sea King flypast celebrates 76th anniversary of 771 Naval Air Squadron (http://www.westbriton.co.uk/time-iconic-helicopter-flypast-Cornwall-morning/story-26546556-detail/story.html)

I/C

I wonder how much effort went in to get 6 'S' Mk5 HAR's airborne simultaneously??

[jimf671]

I wonder how much effort went in to get 6 'S' Mk5 HAR's airborne simultaneously??

Yes. Six working Sea Kings really is news. Are we sure the first one didn't circle round and join the back of the queue?

[Ian Corrigible]

Are we sure the first one didn't circle round and join the back of the queue?
:ok:

Ultimately only five SKs joined the tour, the sixth responding to a call-out. Image gallery here (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2015/may/21/150521-771-nas-birthday).

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/~/media/royal%20navy%20responsive/images/news/fleet%20air%20arm/771/150521%20771%20nas%20birthday/cu150068015.jpg?mh=447&mw=980&thn=0

I/C

[[email protected]]

Llamaman - Comp A jobs were classed as SAROPs if a SAR cab was used as they take precedence over almost everything. I picked up a chap from Heathrow at 6am one sunny morning in a Sea King to take him to Bristol where his father was VSI - in less than 15 hours he had gone from being on patrol in Helmand to being at his father's bedside.

However, taking engineers to a rig hardly counts as compassionate - I presume the ARCCK gave their permission (if they were actually asked)

[llamaman]

Llamaman - Comp A jobs were classed as SAROPs if a SAR cab was used as they take precedence over almost everything. I picked up a chap from Heathrow at 6am one sunny morning in a Sea King to take him to Bristol where his father was VSI - in less than 15 hours he had gone from being on patrol in Helmand to being at his father's bedside.

I'm playing devil's advocate Crab. There are ways and means of utilising SAR helicopters for non-SAR tasking and categorising compassionate tasks as SAROPS is one way the military does it. Bristow have obviously found their own way of working the system. Once the ARCC is embedded within the Coastguard NMOC they will essentially be self-policing in terms of tasking and will lose the element of neutrality that Kinloss currently strives for. It's the way ahead apparently.

[jimf671]

... ... Once the ARCC is embedded within the Coastguard NMOC ... ...


I do not think embedded is quite correct for what will be in place for next March. ARCC structures are expected to be separate from Coastguard MOC structures. It may seem a subtle distinction but, in spite of the branding of the aircraft, MCA Aviation is not structured within the Coastguard but under Director Maritime Operations MCA, and key management are DfT guys.

Later, if there is a move towards a JRCC model, it will be interesting to see how things pan out. The DfT will have to play a strong hand since, for a true JRCC, the Coastguard would be just another seat at the table. After the pain of 'Future Coastguard', that might not go down too well.



ARCC Fareham training kicking off as we scribble.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/tony-gear/27/b05/815

[llamaman]

I do not think embedded is quite correct for what will be in place for next March. ARCC structures are expected to be separate from Coastguard MOC structures. It may seem a subtle distinction but, in spite of the branding of the aircraft, MCA Aviation is not structured within the Coastguard but under Director Maritime Operations MCA, and key management are DfT guys.

That's a fair assessment but the function in practical day to day terms will be a different dynamic despite whatever management structures are in place.

The Coastguard is a customer for SAR with no less or more priority than any of the other 1st response agencies. The ARRC's responsibility is to allocate helicopters on a case by case basis without bias and driven by the urgency of the situation at the time. I hope this ethos can be maintained post-March.

[jimf671]

That's a fair assessment but the function in practical day to day terms will be a different dynamic despite whatever management structures are in place.

(As posted elsewhere.) ... I take the view that those location should not be in major urban areas. I suggest that successful SAR management will be best served if staff are recruited from a largely rural area where self-reliance is a normal fact of life and everybody listens to the weather forecast.



The Coastguard is a customer for SAR with no less or more priority than any of the other 1st response agencies. The ARRC's responsibility is to allocate helicopters on a case by case basis without bias and driven by the urgency of the situation at the time. I hope this ethos can be maintained post-March.

The current intake to ARCC Fareham can easily pick up on enough ex-SAR (helo/MRS/Nimrod) types resident in the Hampshire area but I am hearing that it is a mix of that and others who are not aviators. They are being trained in an aviation environment at the instigation of an aviation department so there is some place for optimism. I remain concerned but not as concerned as I was a few months ago.

[[email protected]]

The ARCCK has long struggled to find enough aviation qualified people to act as controllers and had to make do with lots of training to try and bring the others up to speed.

One problem will be money - whereas military controllers at Kinloss have been relatively well paid and often asked to work there for personal reasons, the CG pays peanuts and will struggle to attract people of the right quality and background, especially given property prices in the South of England.

In the same way that the MCA thinks local knowledge isn't relevant in this modern age of communications (they have recently been proved wrong at Milford after closing Swansea CG) - I have no doubt that a lack of quality aviation (especially SAR helicopter) knowledge and experience will waste time on SAR callouts and possibly cause loss of life as a result.

As ever with the MCA there is unlikely to be any transparency or oversight of how effective their operations are and FOI requests are far too clumsy a system to show what is actually happening on a day to day basis. At least as military operators we could always pick up the phone for a hot debrief after a job and run any concerns we had through our chain of command - when MCA is both the provider and the customer, how is that going to happen?

[jimf671]

The ARCCK has long struggled to find enough aviation qualified people to act as controllers and had to make do with lots of training to try and bring the others up to speed.

What? You mean they had to use Navy guys? :E :E



... ... - when MCA is both the provider and the customer, how is that going to happen?

Very good point.

[Al-bert]

I once had to 'explain' to an NRCC controller why we couldn't just 'punch out' from low level and divert to Glasgow for a night stop as we approached the fuel dump at Killin, at night in a blizzard , as we attempted to rtb Leuchars in a Wessex following a successful rescue of a faller on Ben Vorlich. The controller on that occasion was ex VC10 I believe. That was pre ARCCK, it couldn't happen these days surely; could it? :hmm:

[Al-bert]

It's an RCC Jim - but not as we know it ;)

[jimf671]

If it is to morph into a JRCC in future then for it to successfully use that concept the police need to wake up and get involved. So far, in all UK jurisdictions, they have generally been quite happy to let somebody else carry the load. The MCA do SAR helicopters, civ MRT and RAF MRS search hills, CG and RNLI do Loch Ness, ALSAR, and so on and so on. All of which nibbles away at what is Police business in the Civil Contingencies Act 2004.

[[email protected]]

Trouble is that we have had situations where the insistence on police primacy has delayed the correct use of a SAR helo, despite pressure from MRT.

[jimf671]

That's why we need them in the same room.

Jurisdiction matters to sort of course in the UK circumstances but not insurmountable.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

it is a mix of that and others who are not aviators


I hear that the aviation fraternity amounts to just one of the intake of controllers. While this gent is very well qualified to get the rest in gear, even his mountain of experience will be spread pretty thin...

[Al-bert]

rest in gear, even his mountain of experience will be spread pretty thin...

His brawd experience will prevent him from feeling like a duck out of water though TOTD :ok:

[llamaman]

An interesting (no doubt controversial!) viewpoint from Major Jean Laroux, 103 SAR Sqn commander for the RCAF interviewed in May's edition of Airmed & rescue;

Some countries augment their SAR provision through contracts with private operators. Do you ever see that happening in Canada?

"I think the private operators are filling a need in those countries and I respect them very much. I truly think that private operators like Bristow in the UK have integrated the SAR community at a level above a simple business plan. It becomes apparent to me that they have a desire to make a difference around them. Having said that, the military is a different machine. We are here to provide the best SAR services to Canadians. The military machine is definitely more robust in risk management, which makes us an operationally focused organisation. The armed forces are built to take and manage risk. Our SAR forces are required to operate at the edge of their capabilities in order to safely and effectively respond when lives of our citizens are at stake. The government is giving the RCAF the equipment and most importantly the aircrews, to train every day and every night to prepare us for every eventuality. I think military SAR will always have the upper hand just because of our ability to constantly train. The military ethos makes us serve above and beyond our job description."

Of course, his stance will always be somewhat biased but I thought his views on risk and training were interesting. Is the military approach better or just different?

[jimf671]

I think he is right about the military being built to take and manage risk. He also alludes to the broader interpretation of 'defence' where a nation's military protect citizens from risks other then warlike operations.

Unfortunately, the British military is still thought of too much as an instrument of imperial power (though the empire would probably have to built in Lego) while budgeted mainly as an crutch to British industry.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

His brawd experience will prevent him from feeling like a duck out of water though


...and will help him remain Cuillin stressful situations :)

[Al-bert]

and help him deal with the trossachs and grumpians? ;)

[jimf671]

Both S-92A now at Caernarfon as of 1132Z.

G-MCGJ and G-MCGK.

[Spanish Waltzer]

great - are they NVG capable? :E

[Jerry Can]

Yes they are.

[[email protected]]

What about the crews?:E

[snaggletooth]

Caernarfon isn't live yet is it?

[Jerry Can]

Yes they are Crab.

[jimf671]

Not conclusive but here is a late night ADS-B track for GK.

G-MCGK - Aircraft info and flight history - Flightradar24 (http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/g-mcgk/#67044e5)

[[email protected]]

Jerry - I knew they would be as many of them are ex-C flight at Valley and therefore already competently trained on NVG in the mountains:ok:

[jimf671]

I looked up PA Scales on the RAF website Crab but I couldn't find an overtime rate for Devil's Advocates. :E

[Jerry Can]

Jerry - I knew they would be as many of them are ex-C flight at Valley and therefore already competently trained on NVG in the mountains:ok:

And D Flt/A Flt too mate 😉

[jimf671]

S-92

Another busy day at Bristow Inverness and GF overflew Inverness an hour ago headed west.

GE from Humberside out in the lakes around Helvellyn and Scafell Pike this afternoon.

GK training in Snowdonia this afternoon.


AW139 and AW189

AW139 G-CIJW not seen but G-CIJX up most days last week around Norwich.

AW189 G-MCGM also not seen but interesting activity elsewhere. On Thursday morning, G-MCGN flew from Norwich to Yeovil (Agusta Westland). On Thursday afternoon, the newest AW189 currently flying, G-MCGP, flew from Yeovil to Norwich. The Register shows that a change in ownership is currently in-process for G-MCGP (currently still shown as Agusta Westland).

[[email protected]]

Jerry - I can't vouch for those from the second division Northern Sqn:ok::ok:

[cyclic]

Crab has only ever flown round mountains with summits that can also be reached by train ;)

[[email protected]]

There's no train up Troodos;)

[jimf671]

Nice comeback. :ok:

[[email protected]]

And I must have missed seeing the train on Tryfan many times:ok:

[MOSTAFA]

No train, who'd Adam and Eve it?

[[email protected]]

Nice one - I see what you did there:)

I've got a nice picture of me and a fellow crab in a Mk7 Lynx with a skid on each of those rocks:ok:

[Shackman]

And I've got a nice picture of (most of) a Squirrel at the bottom of Tryfan after attempting the same. Please don't encourage 'les autres'.

[[email protected]]

Clearly wasn't a SAR pilot then:):)

[MOSTAFA]

Or a pair/couple/duet/clutch/few/combo (somebody help!) my favourite, a Brace of Crabs in a Mk 7 Lynx that don't sprechen sie French.