UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Always good to talk


Even better to have ASRA in a nearby bomb-bay:{


(or have commas relayed)


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sorry:oh:

[Hedski]

Nicer to have a radar equipped top cover with droppable life rafts etc. Also the Coast Guard 404 vanished from Inverness at a point, waiting on an aircraft on 2 hour standby to come from East Mids wasn't helpful. Hercules was requested but that was clearly too difficult and the proper MPA aircraft with full kit in Ireland was ruled out as being impossible to get.....:ugh:

Oops, another rant.

[SeaKingDriver]

Good point, forgot the Cessna!

[jimf671]

... forgot the Cessna!

As you would.

[edwardspannerhands]

Someone asked early on about the Falkland Islands SAR cover. Well, (now don't laugh...) but having fairly recently returned from our South Altlantic outpost, "word on the street" there is that the powers that be are looking at putting Puma down there. Now I told you not to laugh! I'm not a "rotary man" but I'd have thought the winds at MPC would not favour Puma Ops. Surely they'd topple over with the winds they get?
Another rumour is that BRINTEL don't expect to get their contract renewed when the current (extension) runs out. Purely a rumour but who would get it if they didn't? CHC? Who are currently at Stanley on Oil Charter work.

[meanttobe]

Hey ewdardspannerhands check the Falklands helicopter support contract thread. Rumour there is BI have held onto the contract. However nothing confirmed yet from MOD contract section .

[Ant T]

CHC? Who are currently at Stanley on Oil Charter work.

CHC's last aircraft left the Falklands a couple of weeks ago in the back of an Antonov - reportedly on its way to reduce the shortage of airframes on the UK North Sea......

[Thomas coupling]

edwardspannerhand: read MoD's lips: MO MIL SAR...nada...nil...noooo.
Meantobe: BI continue with the contract (as advertised) until 2016.
Bristow: SAR analysis paper prepares for SAR ops on the Falklands post 2016 - 3 cabs. QED.

Rumour on the (mil) street is that the new contract for SAR UK is going to be called: "Future UK SAR." :mad:

[Fareastdriver]

but I'd have thought the winds at MPC would not favour Puma Ops. Surely they'd topple over with the winds they get?

Seemed to have managed in the Shetlands for the last forty years.

[pasptoo]

Damn you predictive text! :mad:

At range speed the S92 will burn 1250 lbs/hr :ok:

[edwardspannerhands]

Thanks for the replies guys. like I said, they were just the rumours floating around on my recent visit. Good news if BRINTEL have secured a new contract - from what I saw they provided an excellent service. Safe Flying to all. ES.

[Lala Steady]

Industry insider - if your figures are correct then 3.6 hours minus 30 mins IFR reserve equal 3.2 hours - multiply by 145 kts and you get 464 miles or a RoA of 232 nm without any time on scene unless your time on scene was the 30 mins but then you don't have any reserve.

232 RoA doesn't beat the Sea King - more poetic licence???

Pasptoo - what is the range speed that gives that fuel burn?

[Lioncopter]

Lala...

Industry insider did say "without Aux tank" and I did say 140-145 was not best range speed... So everyone was being honest. Best range speed is about 130KIAS. If you can get to a good alt then fuel burn will drop off a little more than what Paspatoo has said.

We almost managed a full page of grown up discussion. No poetic licence... Just facts.

[jimf671]

If there is an SK with a ROA greater than 200 nm then I don't think it has found its way onto the ARCC state board yet.

[Al-bert]

If there is an SK with a ROA greater than 200 nm then I don't think it has found its way onto the ARCC state board yet.

Jim, I don't know why that should be - change of sop's, a/c heavier? I have several entries in my log book out to 280 miles west of Ireland, as did all the ex Brawdy 'boys'. (and boy were we happy to see the Nimrod) :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

Does it matter? You draw a line on the chart, if whatever it is is beyond that line it has to sail within that line if it needs a helicopter. Twenty or thirty miles isn't going to make a lot of difference.

[SAR Bloke]

Does it matter? You draw a line on the chart, if whatever it is is beyond that line it has to sail within that line if it needs a helicopter. Twenty or thirty miles isn't going to make a lot of difference.

Unless the boat is sinking.

[212man]

The S-92 standard capacity is around 5050lbs, maybe 5100lbs on a good day

But the SAR aircraft will have aux tanks....

[Hummingfrog]

A few question for those who operate the S92 with the Aux tank:-

1. How many survivors can you seat with the tank installed?
2. The S92 has I believe its fuel in the sidepods -for better crashworthyness, is the aux tank at the back of the cabin or under the floor. How does it affect its' crashworthyness?


Also can you use the windscreen wipers above 40kts which I believe was a limit on the earlier S92s?

HF

[Thomas coupling]

You can use it to lay out the stretcher. So no space lost per se.

Jim671: don't be silly: ALL SeaKings have an ROA of 200Nm's :ugh: ALL should be on your board.

[Hummingfrog]

industry insider

Thanks for the reply. I still can't understand why modern helicopters have such poor windscreen wipers. Cars seem to manage at high speed without them departing over your shoulder, which used to be fairly common on the Wessex!!

Now that the S92 seems to be becoming the main Seaking replacement world wide you would think that Sikorsky would come up with a tank which isn't in the cabin! Though I know farmers like them! I came upon a lowloader with about 8 Wessex Aux tanks on it - some still in crates - in a farmer's field near Humberside 3 yrs ago!!

HF

[merlin_driver]

Does it matter? You draw a line on the chart, if whatever it is is beyond that line it has to sail within that line if it needs a helicopter. Twenty or thirty miles isn't going to make a lot of difference.


Not quite so. Radius of Action varies with wind intensity, and it can be a lot. If wind is below 30 kts, in the Merlin, we're OK, but above that, range starts reducing, and if you have the misfortune of going out with a +45kts headwind, range reduction may be 15-20% (50-70 NM). So, the "line" moves a lot, and 20 miles make a lot of difference if you're going above 250/300 NM. You really need to get as much out of the aircraft as possible, but in the end the wind pretty much determines how far you can go...

Best wishes

[Sevarg]

So how much does the 92's aux tank hold, 1000lb or more?

[212man]

http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikorsky/Assets/Attachments/Mission%20Downloads/S92-061a_SAR_SellSheet.pdf

[IFR Piglet]

About 1384ilbs of useable fuel; approx 1 hours worth.

Cheers!

[Fareastdriver]

New modern helicopters don't still blunder around the UK waters calibrated in pounds, do they?

[Sevarg]

Why not? AUW still in lbs. The best FU waiting to happen had to be the 61 with tank qty, written by the filler, in US Gals, the gauges in lbs, the refueller delivering in lts.

[212man]

On the S92 you can push a button (on the Display Control Panel) to swap between Kg and Lbs. Early in our S92 ops we had a crew press the button inadvertently (and probably unwittingly) and then later returned to base fearing they had a fuel leak! Capt was ex-Navy, but names no pack-drill:E

[jimf671]

Not my board TC. I could be wrong but my recollection is of a number less than 200 on one of the occasions that I have looked at this. There may have been two SK figures.

I would expect these to be just initial guidelines based on a standard risk profile. It's also possible that they are claimed or contracted minima from each providers' management. The ARCC's Rescue Co-ordination System (RCS) will do the maths to produce an initial estimate for a particular job, based on the prevailing met and so on.

[SAR Bloke]

I'll leave the RN guys to comment on the MK5's ROA as I think it is different, but the Mk3/3A can certainly go a lot further than 200nm. I've done 230 a couple of times and still had over an hours fuel left when I landed.

ARCC's computer will work out which flight will get there quickest but it can't tell if the job is possible. That is for the aircraft captain to determine.

[jimf671]

Yes, SAR Bloke. Note my term 'initial estimate'. Also 'claimed or contracted minima'.

I would rather have the management numbers that way round. The CG figures on that display were also short on what's on the graphs. I dont think the SK is being sold short.

[Fareastdriver]

The best FU waiting to happen had to be the 61 with tank qty, written by the filler, in US Gals, the gauges in lbs, the refueller delivering in lts.

You've just explained my question.
I was told the oil companies prefered it that way. That's why I spent half my time at preflight doumentation and deck running checking that the dispatcher had calculated correctly the passenger and freight he had weighed in Kilos into pounds.

[Lala Steady]

So, being generous, a S-92 with aux tank fitted has 5100 (main fuel) plus 1400 (aux fuel) giving 6500 lbs. Take off 30 mins on scene and 30 mins reserve (don't know what min landing fuel is) and assuming 1300 lbs /hour fuel burn leaves you 5200 lbs useable.

At 1300 lbs/hour that gives 4 hours flying at 137 kts (again being generous) equals 548 nm or 274 nm Radius of action).

Not actually such a capability improvement when all is said and done despite all the trumpeting.

If there is an option of a second 210 gallon aux tank that will add another hour of flying at 137 kts which takes the RoA up to 342 nm yet the Sikorsky/MCA blurb, that 212 mans link takes you to, show RoA's in excess of 370 nm. More fudge factors cherry picking the best possible (rather than realistic everyday) performance figures from the RFM?

[Flounder]

Realistic everyday performance for ROA for the S92A SAR equipped is about 260nm which is significantly more than a Sea King (Mk3, 3A or anything else) post March 2016.

[snakepit]

Not actually such a capability improvement when all is said and done despite all the trumpeting.

Excepting that it can do that without first spending 30 mins stripping out every piece of role and med equipment not needed including the seats and boiler and everything else not nailed down.

A pretty substantial capability improvement I would say. Just try smiling once in a while Lala you might like it.

[Al-bert]

260nm which is significantly more than a Sea King (Mk3, 3A or anything else) post March 2016.

since when was 260nm significantly more than 280 nm? And I always kept the water boiler, couldn't go anywhere without a nice cuppa! :ok:

[Flounder]

That is true but not the point I was making.:p

[jimf671]

... ... I always kept the water boiler, couldn't go anywhere without a nice cuppa!

Your skill set will be missed Al-bert.

[Al-bert]

I think the SMC got over it a few years ago Jim :}

[SAR mech]

What are the chances of an american getting hired for one of the winchman/winch operator positions? I am an american a & p and flew rescue in USMC as a crew chief (flying mech and hoist operator) and rescue swimmer. Attended US Navy rescue swimmer school and US Coast Gaurd advanced rescue swimmer school.

[onwardsandupwards]

Apologies if this has been covered already but is there a decision as yet where Bristow will base their UK SAR operations head office - i.e. administration, operations department, HR, payroll, etc?

Aberdeen, Redhill, other?

[chcoffshore]

SAR mech, Brunei Shell are advertising for rear crew.

[jimf671]

SAR Mech.

These are on the Bristow website in amongst the standard Bristow Group jobs (as opposed to the Bristow SAR Managed Transition which is for Brit Mil).

WINCH OPERATOR- EBU00408
Requirements
· one (1) year’s previous experience on a dedicated SAR unit as a Winch Operator on helicopters
· two hundred and fifty (250) hours operating experience in helicopters gained in an operational environment similar to the intended operation
· no criminal record, safe flying record and the right to reside and work in the UK
(Training may be given to the right candidates)

WINCHMAN- EBU00409
Requirements
· 3 months’ previous experience on a dedicated SAR unit as a Winchman on helicopters
· 50 hours as Winchman on helicopters
· 20 hours operating experience in helicopters gained in an operational environment similar to the intended operation
· HCPC registered Paramedic
· no criminal record, safe flying record and the right to reside and work in the UK
(Training may be given to the right candidates)


Clearly, there are a couple of crux points there for non-UK applicants, those being HCPC and Right To Reside.

However, the statement about training the RIGHT CANDIDATE indicates some flexibility. Considering that you describe having 24 carat qualifications, I'd say get your resumé in there ASAP. Although I want to see all the experienced UK SAR crews getting a piece of the action, I'm also a great fan of diversity.


HCPC - Homepage (Health and Care Professions Council) (http://www.hpc-uk.org/)

[snakepit]

Although I want to see all the experienced UK SAR crews getting a piece of the action

At last! Now you say it's ok I will get my cv in Jim. I will let the other mil guys know too!

[jimf671]

Now you say it's ok ...

Yeah, always happy to help mate. Especially if it may provide opportunities to maximise the sarcasm. :ok:


JimF
(Under a bush out beyond the peri track)

[HeliComparator]

If you are a US citizen, be careful that you have the right to live and work in the UK. Our Border Control lot seem to be making immigration harder these days.

[Al-bert]

Especially if it may provide opportunities to maximise the sarcasm. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif



oh goody! Rescue swimmers dead handy in the Highlands - that pesky Nevis river race for example :ok:

[Vie sans frontieres]

20 hours operating experience in helicopters gained in an operational environment similar to the intended operation

Why set the bar so high? 20 whole hours is a lot to ask. :rolleyes: :hmm:

[SAR mech]

Thanks to everyone that had input. I will go ahead and put my cv/ resume in to the Bristow Website.

Will CHC continue SAR ops in Ireland? Anyone know hownhard it isnfor an American to work in Ireland?

[Bdub]

SAR mech, Brunei Shell are advertising for rear crew. chcoffshore,

I am having a bit of trouble finding the Brunei Shell job listing for that on their website. Would you happen to have a link?

Thanks!

[Bdub]

If you are a US citizen, be careful that you have the right to live and work in the UK. Our Border Control lot seem to be making immigration harder these days.

Like SARmech, I have similar qualifications, and did research the UK 'Right to Work' rules. I believe I qualify under Tier 2 (General) terms, with a Certificate of Sponsorship.

Certainly hoping that Bristow is well versed in that area, and are prepared to supply said certificate.

I did send a CV a couple weeks back, but have not heard from them.

Guess it's a waiting game now.

[jimf671]

... Rescue swimmers dead handy in the Highlands ...

Actually, there are times when they would be very handy.

[SASless]

Bristow certainly knew the procedures in past years....cannot assume they do not retain that bit of savvy today. Whether the Rules have changed and the economic situation of the UK plays a role in getting the necessary approvals is another thing all together.

[Al-bert]

... Rescue swimmers dead handy in the Highlands ...
Actually, there are times when they would be very handy.


care to elaborate Jim? It's just that in 22 years of highland rescue, I can't think of one instance, but I guess it's been wetter of late? ;)

[jimf671]

... care to elaborate ...

Public sector Clash of the Titans. Very tedious.

[Al-bert]

Public sector Clash of the Titans. Very tedious

are you related to Yoda??? :)

[SAR Bloke]

If the rumour that I am hearing about how long it is going to take Bristow to train the Mil pilots that it recruits (7 months?) is true, can someone please explain to me how the managed transition is going to work?

[queueaitcheye]

The Managed Transition will be work, in that it will successfully transition the provision of SAR services from the military to the civilian world.

That's all it is required to do. That's all it was ever designed to do.

[SAR Bloke]

OK, maybe I have the name wrong. Managed Path?

i.e. the partnership between the MOD and Bristow for the recruitment and transfer of personnel.

[Thomas coupling]

SARBloke:

Let me repeat yet again for those hard of hearing:

Lad/Ladess makes an online application to Bristow (endex end of May).
Bristow "cherry pick" who they want for interview by end of June.
Candidate goes for chat/psychomteric test/sim ride/medical/verbal offer (or otherwise).
Bristow tells MCA/DFT they want this individual. DfT tells MoD and MoD tells SARF Command.
SARF initiates that persons Managed Transition to coincide with Bristows planned start date and the mil persons PVR notice (so that the SAR service's integrity is not breached).
Individual leaves mil at a time that suits SARF and coincides with start date for new SAR base to stand up. New SAR base stands up with an internal company transition SAR crew who cover for that individual while he/she gets trained up (7-9 months and 250-280hrs on type). UK SAR integrity retained.
And so the process gets repeated for each of the new bases in turn.

During training the mil pilots will work on the oil rig sector, learning all about the CAA, civvy ops, let downs glass cockpit, complex a/c etc etc.

Simples :ok:

[SAR Bloke]

Let me repeat yet again for those hard of hearing:

Ok, seeing as you clearly think I am thick!!

SARF initiates that persons Managed Transition to coincide with Bristows planned start date and the mil persons PVR notice (so that the SAR service's integrity is not breached).

That is the bit that I am asking about. How does that work? How many personnel can the SARF afford to lose without breaching the integrity of the service. At what point are the SARF going to be able to release people?

Edited to add:

New SAR base stands up with an internal company transition SAR crew who cover for that individual while he/she gets trained up (7-9 months and 250-280hrs on type).

Seeing as the timeline for overall transition is quite tight, will this not end up with 'transition' crews at several bases simultaneously? Is that not a long time for a transition crew? What are all these people going to do when the transition is over?

[flybeboy]

s-92 bristow g-mcgc was at culdrose today and now at chivenor showing off trying to get them signed up:bored:

[Fareastdriver]

s-92 bristow g-mcgc was at culdrose today and now at chivenor

That's a good sign. If Bristow beancounters are prepared to pay for the fuel to get a S92 down from Inverness to Cornwall and back they must be interested in military crews.

[Thomas coupling]

It's not you SARbloke - I udnerstand some don't want to wade thru this massive thread again and again :)

SARF will release people who fit the Bristow AND SARF matrix for start up times at each of the bases. If there is a conflict, SARF will not release the individual.

The transition crew(s) are already in Bristow. They are a worked up crew designed to cover bases ready for the transition. They have designed it to 'work'. Dates and training come together.
In fact the designated crews for each of the new bases should be ready to go approx 2 months before they are actually required.
Once the transition crew do one base, they move onto the next base etc. On completion of the transition they return to the Bristow fold.

Flybe/Fareast: It's not a recruitment drive. It's is a road show advertising the way ahead - take it or leave it. It is not essential they take any military, I would suggest and they are most certainly NOT turning up cap in hand as those who attended the Valley road show will attest. Bristow are definitely in the driving seat here! I would suggest it is the mil who should be turning up cap in hand.

If you talk to anyone who has done a road show already, they might suggest it was a humbling experience overall:oh:

This is going to be one helluva trip:
Job application - hit or miss?
Interview - hit or miss?
Psychometric testing - hit or miss?
Sim check ride - hit or miss?
Civvy medical - hit or miss?
Flying oil rigs for approx 8 months miles from your home base?
Flying a very technically advanced glass cockpit?
Learning all about civvy ops/SOP's?
For some - Obtaining their licenses (inc IR)?
Being a co-pilot on a lower salary to start with?
Not guaranteed the base you chose?
Not guaranteed Captaincy early?
Disembarking to other bases for weeks on end throughout the year?

Very very humbling indeed.............................

The good news:
Flying one of the most sophisticated helicopters out there.
Sponsored IR.
Qualified on M.E., glass cockpit, NVD.
Working for one of the most astute aviation companies in the world.
Earning serious money for the rest of your career.
Job mobility at home and abroad.
Pension rights/LOL/medical.
A job FOR LIFE.

Now who is going cap in hand to whom?

[SAR Bloke]

I understand that the interest from the ex-Mil pilots might not be that great. Time will tell and it might be a good thing as I the more I hear, the more I believe that there will not actually be that many opportunities for them anyway. Even if they are interested then I can't see that the SARF will be able to release them in useful numbers.

Making life difficult for the ex-Mil crews might seem like a good idea to 'put them in their place' but despite what you might think of them, they do know their stuff and are very experienced at what they do. Do they really need to fly oil and gas for 8 months? That just sounds like being difficult for the sake of it to me. Let's hope that Bristow have a suitable number of civilians with comparable experience to step in on day one if not enough ex Mil pilots are willing, or able to make the move. I for one have already found alternative employment outside of SAR.

Once the transition crew do one base, they move onto the next base etc.

So working on the minimum suggested training time of 7 months, with 7 new bases, that is 49 months (i.e. over 4 years). Is it just me or is there a flaw in this plan?

Edited to add:

TC, it shouldn't be about anyone going cap in hand to anyone. Bristow need good SAR crews and some of the ex-Mil crews will need jobs. If everyone could put their differences aside then it should be obvious that recruitment of some of the ex-Mil people will be beneficial to everybody.

[NRDK]

Making life difficult for the ex-Mil crews might seem like a good idea to 'put them in their place' but despite what you might think of them, they do know their stuff and are very experienced at what they do. Do they really need to fly oil and gas for 8 months? That just sounds like being difficult for the sake of it to me. Let's hope that Bristow have a suitable number of civilians with comparable experience to step in on day one if not enough ex Mil pilots are willing, or able to make the move. I for one have already found alternative employment outside of SAR.

Sorry old chap if you feel that you are being hard done by, welcome to the real world. It will not be fixed in stone, but that process has been in use for 20+ years. On exceptional occasions people were dropped straight into slots if they had the rating in hand. That is unlikely to be the case, furthermore some ex-mil & civ drivers didn't come up to scratch as expected. Hence a more selective approach and some useful evaluation time?

Bristow does not have a pool of pilots already working that can turn into SAR pilots overnight. They may have a few interested pilots that would take a lot longer than the proposed route for the ex-mil SAR pilot to bash his/her way through. A type rating and a few months hour/experience building is easy. Years of developing a SAR, multi crew experience portfolio is your asset to the company, not 10,000 hours of flying to a rig down to 300' & .75nm @ night minimums.:rolleyes: (don't get me wrong, landing at night on a semi sub on the limits of wind/sea conditions can be a challenge and a half!)

Good luck in your new found career.

[SAR Bloke]

Why should I feel hard done by? It's not like I've failed selection; I have made a choice to go elsewhere. I do have friends who are still stuck in the system though so do maintain a level of interest.

Hence a more selective approach and some useful evaluation time?

So is the oil and gas time part of the selection process? That's not what I have heard. I was under the impression that once you had a fixed number of hours glass cockpit that you go to the SAR Flight. It didn't read as if it was an assessment tool.

Years of developing a SAR, multi crew experience portfolio is your asset to the company, not 10,000 hours of flying to a rig

Which is precisely my point. So why use experienced SAR pilots to fly to a rig?

[NRDK]

The rig flying bit is to quickly amass the hours required by the client, authority, company rules.

The use of selection/'evaluation' has been taken to heart? It was perhaps the wrong use of the words...but that said it is not inconceivable that some pilots may have more adjusting to sound CRM/civ way of operating. Someone of promise may be noted for accelerated command. Naive to assume you wouldn't be measured during that time, after all, it happens throughout your Civie career.

Your lack of understanding or unwillingness to accept that clever people have a plan and have done so for a number of years so far. Shows them exactly why this is in place. If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

[SAR Bloke]

This is the first time that the whole of UK SAR has transitioned to the civilian sector. If these clever people you talk of are relying solely on previous experience without considering the new environment that they find themselves in then then maybe they aren't so clever (my guess, however, is that they have). You can't assume that what has worked for the last 20 years will work in this case.

In a 'normal' case, I wouldn't be bothered about the requirement to spend a few months hour building to a rig. The problem now is that the transition for all bases occurs so quickly that maybe this a luxury that can't be afforded. It might be that a full programme, including hour building, has been designed that works. My concern would be whether the Military can release pilots at a time that is expected by Bristow.

As it happens, I think that the future Bristow SAR service will be excellent, but if this thread is representative of the attitudes of the military to the civilians and vice versa, I wouldn't want to be in the crewroom at the beginning!!

[Fareastdriver]

Should there be mass reduncies from the fixed-wing part of the RAF because a particular force has been folded pilots would be looking to civil aviation to continue their flying career. The would expect to be a first officer for several years before getting a command and that would be on a vacancy basis.

Why should helicopter pilots be any different?

[NRDK]

This is the first time that the whole of UK SAR has transitioned to the civilian sector.
One third is already there...has been for 2 decades plus only 60% more is required....come to think of it we are nearly HALF WAY there already:ok:

It will be tight, true. Also, we will let you off with your attitude to the civilian SAR on this occasion.:}

Have had a chat with Senior management....

We have decided to give all mil pilots a quick conversion & IR onto a complex glass cockpit aircraft, make them captains, parachute them into a region that they may be unfamiliar with. Tell them get airborne & make the most of the 3 civilian crew they have with its 60 plus years of SAR experience (20+ years is standard at the moment per employee) and get you all to retrain them the RAF way:O Managed transition complete easy peasy:ugh:

Bristow have it in control as best as they can when working with the MOD BS, trust me, its not them making life difficult.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Why so defensive NRDK?

[llamaman]

As I have said before, Bristow hold all the trump cards. There's a reason they are one of the most successful commercial helicopter operators in the world. Anyone who thinks that MT was conceived with the needs of the individual in the military as a priority is sadly deluded. The process that has been put in place has been done to ensure;

1. Continuity of UK SAR during the transition.
2. To enable Bristow to cherry-pick military crews to satisfy their needs.
3. As a management tool for mil manning to have control over exit dates.

It saddens me that those who want to continue doing what they love doing, but as a civilian, are described as going begging 'cap in hand' to Bristow. For those that do I sincerely hope they are not welcomed with that attitude from many of their new compatriots. I suspect that once the disruption and uncertainty of the next few years subsides that it will all work quite nicely.

[NRDK]

VSF - Just realistic in life. After living on both sides. BTDT;)

are described as going begging 'cap in hand' to Bristow

LOL, tis a rumour network after all, added to by many outwith of the actual SAR community. That part is BS and far from the real world......do you really believe that is what is expected....seriously?????

[jimf671]

One third is already there ...

Sorry NRDK, but that is naive fantasy. A year from now, it might reach around 25%.

One base is part-time, only one does mountain, there is no low light requirement and therefore no NVG except as a rear-crew search aid, the comms requirement and therefore fit is inadequate, and the aircraft at two bases are not suitable. No matter what experience and effort the crews bring to this service, they remain held back by the current contract and by DfT/MCA lack of vision.

My hope is that in the future the lid is not going to be held down on a boiling pot of diverse talent. Fortunately, it appears that the current path is ever upwards.

[pasptoo]

JimF

Ten bases planned, therefore one base = 10% of total manning?

3xMCA bases (SUM, STY, LEE) = 30%
1xMCA base going spare (POR)=10%
1xBHL Transition + Trainers = 10-15%

Total so far = 50-55%

Perhaps my math is wrong but I'd suggest in a year from now 75-80% easily, judging by the numbers of SAR (VERY recent) experience being recruited by Bristow NOW ! :D

That leaves more or less 20-25% within the next 3-4 years to find. :rolleyes:

[Vie sans frontieres]

Your view may be one of realism NRDK but it also reveals a defensiveness which I hope isn't reflected across civilian SAR. In the past you've suggested that RAF pilots will only be considered when all other options have been exhausted

the CV list is as follows:
Ex RN whatever their non crab inferior skills.
Civvie willing to listen, learn and have demonstrated a life long career drive to aviate (not been handed a golden RAF bus pass @18)
Low time South Africans, Polish, Bulgarian and other EU migrant bus drivers.
Crab SH pilots
Army Pilots
RAF SAR pilots

and your recent post

Tell them get airborne & make the most of the 3 civilian crew they have with its 60 plus years of SAR experience (20+ years is standard at the moment per employee) and get you all to retrain them the RAF way

gives the impression that you feel the need to re-emphasise how much experience there is in civilian SAR at the moment and that your nervousness about RAF input continues.

Some might say this shows that your eventual reaction to the arrival of ex-RAF SAR boys and girls is therefore already in place. If that is true and it's reflected across civilian SAR then as SAR Bloke says, what chance is there that the crewroom is going to be a happy place? Just relax and welcome their input when it comes. :ok:

[jimf671]

25% of contract delivery, as of spring 2014, plus some sensible but unproven planning and preparation.

[Flounder]

It saddens me that those who want to continue doing what they love doing, but as a civilian, are described as going begging 'cap in hand' to Bristow. For those that do I sincerely hope they are not welcomed with that attitude from many of their new compatriots. I suspect that once the disruption and uncertainty of the next few years subsides that it will all work quite nicely.

Please don't think some of the comments on this forum reflect the attitudes of the current MCA crewroom where civilian, ex-RAF & RN personnel all work very well together.

Naturally this is an unsettling period for all (more so for RAF/RN crews looking to transition out) but I sincerely believe Bristow not only want to recruit the experience currently operating in military SAR but they will need to.

I'm not entirely sure how the 7-9 month transition will work, or how the North Sea plan to gain experience will work with crewing. This is going to be a challenge no doubt but I've been through a few hand-overs to new operators or changes of contract in my career where the naysayers sat at the sidelines waiting for the whole show to collapse only to jump on board and join the celebrations when it somehow got done - usually through the hard work and flexibility of the people involved.

However, I think once the dust has settled there will be a huge sigh of relief from those who wanted to join civilian SAR when they realise that it doesn't really feel any different from what they are doing at the moment (where did most of the SOPs for civilian SAR came from in the first place?). The major difference will be working in a superb new aircraft operating from a bespoke modern facility (apart from Stornoway ;)).

Bring it on and welcome one and all.

[NRDK]

My banter with CRAB@ shouldn't be taken so seriously :ok:
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Crab is playing nice now that his CV in sitting in HR;) and he would be a fun addition to the crew room plus his experience on Ops

Any team player with an open mind to change is welcome.:ok:

Well said Flounder.


The current team is a complete mix.....works very well. Made up of people very much orientated to maintaining the high level of service that has existed for so long at 2/3rds of the UK's SAR bases.

Jimf, I think someone else has pointed out that numbers wise the Civilian side is already a large part and Bristow will obtain the right numbers within a sensible framework.

[meanttobe]

SEARCH & RESCUE ?PRIVATISATION: Things the MSM didn?t tell you about Bristow Helicopters | The Slog. 3-D bollocks deconstruction (http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/search-rescue-privatisation-things-the-msm-didnt-tell-you-about-bristow-helicopters/)

Found this today.

[Fareastdriver]

meantobe
I have tried that website twice. It froze my computer both times. I'm not trying it again.

[check]

I managed to open it and wished I hadn't, what a load of gobssh*t! Sorry for the language but it had more twists than Chubby Checker, controlled ditching becomes a crash for instance.

This drivel has no place on PPRune, we have enough of our own.

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: I notice you haven't posted of late. I suspect your application is, indeed, in at Bristow HR and you are waiting for a response......................:E

You little tinker you...........

[Fareastdriver]

Crab: I notice you haven't posted of late.

Not a lot of point. The die has been cast, the cards have been dealt; there's not a lot he can say or do about it.

[NRDK]

:ok: Crab reminds me of me...at least he gives as good as he gives and I would work with him any day. I know he is a consummate professional with a sense of humour as well:ok:

[Vie sans frontieres]

Ok, you can stop the backpedalling now. :hmm:

[WannabeCrewman]

On the subject of Ab Initios - has there been any more news on what Bristows position is for guys with no previous Mil/SAR experience getting a chance to train as Winch Operators/Winchmen?

I only ask as I am one of the many WSOp 'holdies' in the training pipeline at the moment; I joined in late 2010 and wont be CR until gone 2018, due to MASSIVE holds at various stages of training, the longest of which is nearly 4 years long. Yes, you read that right, 4 years. :ok:

I appreciate that the surplus of pre-trained, experienced SAR guys coming out of the RAF/RN will allow Bristow to avoid the headache of bringing in "new blood" for a few years, that said, surely they will have to look at training guys to do the job without previous SAR experience eventually?

[[email protected]]

Wannabe - since you are not currently part of milSAR and therefore not covered by the managed transition, you are best placed contacting Bristow directly.

Bristow is a worldwide company with operations in many countries and they are in UK SAR for the long run so there should always be opportunities for keen and well motivated people.

NRDK - a few hurdles to clear before that happens but hope springs eternal:ok:

[tregeseal]

Hi all,
Apologies for being slightly off topic but has anyone got any idea or not if Bristow's have any intention of providing their own fire cover or are they planning to use existing airport fire services? Are there any regulations that dictate fire cover, i.e on a fully CAA licensed airport and would the fire cover have to be there 24 hrs per day?
Regards,
tregeseal

[ukv1145]

Hi Tregeseal, existing fire cover augmented with own fire vehicle for out of hours call outs I believe. I understand the intention is to provide full H2 fire cover at all times. If it continues in the current format only the take off will be covered by their own appliance with the airport fire service being called out for the return. This of course only applies to licensed airfields, where operating from an unlicensed airfield (LoS, Portland) fire cover is provided by own vehicles, Portland will be out of the picture for Long SAR though so I think the only remaining site will be Lee.

[ukv1145]

Has anything come out of the roadshows about engineering transition? Is there likely to be any take up from the existing workforce given that the adverts are all looking for EASA license quals?

[NRDK]

William's decision to leave RAF Valley is said to be linked to his opposition to the selling of the search and rescue service
William quits RAF pilot job to be close to Kate and their new baby | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2316105/William-quits-RAF-pilot-job-close-Kate-new-baby.html#ixzz2RnBa4qhj)


:D

[[email protected]]

But that article is from the Mail :yuk::yuk: and they are careful not to attribute that piece of creative supposition to any real source - ' is said to be' etc

[tregeseal]

Hi ukv1145,
that's very informative and thank you for the info :ok:

[meanttobe]

Just in case you didnt get a chance to listen to the Bristow SAR presentation . The link below is the transcript from same.

Bristow Investors ? Overview ? BRS ? bristowgroup.com (http://ir.bristowgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=91226&p=irol-irhome)

[B1-3]

OK, the CV is in.

Seeing as according to Newquay Airport the SAR (H) will be operational within 16 months, that's facility built, a/c's in, crews in, type training carried out, local area training carried out and going live when will Bristows HR start to get in contact will candidates?

:}

[[email protected]]

According to the Bristow presentation, Newquay doesn't get operational until late 2016. As I understand it, the 2 RN bases, Culdrose and Prestwick are the last to close.

[avturboy]

Can anyone tell me about the noise footprint of the S92 compared with the Sea King from the perspective of being very close to their operating base; i.e. living within 500 metres of the base.

[bellboy]

Speak up!!!!!!

[jimf671]

... according to Newquay Airport the SAR (H) will be operational within 16 months, ...

Huh? 16 months from when?


According to the Bristow presentation, Newquay doesn't get operational until late 2016. As I understand it, the 2 RN bases, Culdrose and Prestwick are the last to close.

There are contradictions in the Bristow Analyst Day presentation regarding transition dates. One section gives dates that according to at least one other section, and according to DfT documents, are 9 months late.

(And of course, the slide at the front essentially says this could be complete rubbish and we don't accept the blame or anything.)

[Hummingfrog]

avturboy

Can anyone tell me about the noise footprint of the S92 compared with the Sea King from the perspective of being very close to their operating base; i.e. living within 500 metres of the base.

It is certainly noisier in the cruise as I can hear it long before I can hear a Seaking. When it first came to Aberdeen there were cruise restrictions while it was over land but don't know if they are still in force. It is quieter than a Chinook though;)


It doesn't appear to be much noisier than any other helicopter whilst on the ground, though it may make noise for longer as it does have an APU.

HF

[Fareastdriver]

there were cruise restrictions while it was over land

There will not be any on an SAR callout so get you earplugs ready'

[Humane Maverick]

Hi, friends.

Does anyone happen to know what the ranges of salaries will be for capt/FO when the whole thing start to work?

I mean, if you are working, let´s say, in a western African country for a high value company, would it be worth the change in terms of similar money?

Thanks!

[WannabeCrewman]

Just for those who are interested;

I just got off the phone with the HR Manager for Bristow, who was lovely, listened to my tale of woe reference holding etc, and that I wanted to get my head down and get into a proper flying career in SAR.

She said that they are planning on using existing SAR rearcrew at the moment to fill the posts, then once that pool of talent starts drying up in a few years time, they will start bringing in training for ab initio guys.

Makes complete sense to me, I figured that this would be the case, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained. A few years gives me time to get medical qualifications and more experience working with other rescue services, build up that CV for when the RAF make me redundant in 2015...:rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

Humane Maverick:
Co-pilots get £100,000 basic plus school fees of £30,000/yr and relocation allowance of £20,000. Plus company car.
Captains don't get any allowances or car just a basic of £200,000/yr.

The job starts a week next Thursday.

Hope this helps.

[Al-bert]

TC
Co-pilots get £100,000 basic plus school fees of £30,000/yr and relocation allowance of £20,000. Plus company car.
Captains don't get any allowances or car just a basic of £200,000/yr.

The job starts a week next Thursday.

Hope this helps.

are you sure? Isn't there something about '21 virgins' included in the package? :}

[MightyGem]

Oh, TC, you are a wag. :E

[Max Contingency]

Humane Maverick - You will have to excuse TC, he is British and we enjoy nothing more than winding people up.!

The payscales are due to be released shortly but an informed source tells me that they will be:

Captains £73-£88K with 12 paypoint bands
Co-Pilots £53-£64K with 8 paypoint bands
Crewmen ££41-£52K with 12 paypoint bands.

There will be a commensurate reduction in these salaries for anyone joining who is in receipt of a British miltary pension and this will equate to about one third of the pension amount that they currently receive.

Paypoint entry levels (and seniority) will be determined using a 'factored' hour system with previous hours on UK military SAR counting as 1 whole hour, previous hours on UK Coastguard SAR counting as 0.5 of an hour and all other helicopter flying hours counting as 0.4 of an hour.

Hope this helps.

Max

[NRDK]

Lucky all the 6 figure UK Captains and high 5 figure co pilots currently in UK SAR will TUPE their salaries over then....why would pilots leave O&G for such a drop in salary?

[John Eacott]

There will be a commensurate reduction in these salaries for anyone joining who is in receipt of a British miltary pension and this will equate to about one third of the pension amount that they currently receive.

I find that an amazing concept: is it really acceptable in the UK these days to dumb down your income? What if the pilot has a private income from investments, are they expected to take a commensurate salary drop?

Bizarre idea, IMO :ugh:

[212man]

There will be a commensurate reduction in these salaries for anyone joining who is in receipt of a British miltary pension and this will equate to about one third of the pension amount that they currently receive.


What a total nonsense policy! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Spanish Waltzer]

Will the pay scales then be supplemented with paramedic pay, island pay etc etc. these could be the basic pay bands from which things like pension are calculated but actual take home might be higher....or am I just being overly optimistic!

[Fareastdriver]

There will be a commensurate reduction in these salaries for anyone joining who is in receipt of a British miltary pension and this will equate to about one third of the pension amount that they currently receive.


I do not believe that and if it was true it would not last two minutes in an industrial tribunal.

[Flounder]

I have to agree. Total nonsense.

Also the Captain pay-scales are off and I don't see them introducing a 12 tier system when 20 years is currently in use.

[Max Contingency]

we enjoy nothing more than winding people up

That was way too easy. Sometimes I dont know how I sleep at night :E:E:E:E

[John Eacott]

Good catch: especially the later edit :ok:

[[email protected]]

C'mon chaps - the clue was when max con pointed to TC as winding people up!

It did work though - Daily Mail outrage abounds;)

[Fareastdriver]

At least MC wasted more of his time than I did.

[Max Contingency]

Interesting that I only got bites from mil or ex mil. Why no bites from existing civ SAR crews that their seniority would be only worth 50% of equivilent mil time?? :p

[Fareastdriver]

Working for CHC they probably thought it was true.

[Thomas coupling]

Isn't it?

Crab: heard anything yet? :uhoh:

[[email protected]]

TC - the closing date for managed transition applications is 31 May - then Bristow HR have to do a load of sifting and decide who gets an interview. Those are expected in June/July with any job offers in late Autumn.

So the short answer is - no.

The only option for us in the mil is to trust Bristow and RAF/RN manning to get on with their plan - I believe there is a steering group to progress things in an orderly fashion but us coal face workers won't know anything until we are told.

As you can imagine, the managed transition is THE topic of conversation in crewrooms at the moment with all sorts of random (and usually uninformed) opinions being thrown in both from those in the mil and those without.

[Vie sans frontieres]

BBC Radio 4 - The Now Show, Series 40, Episode 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01snyk9)

SAR sketch starts at 5 minutes. :)

[Support Monkey]

BBC News - £7m hangar for new air search and rescue service at Newquay (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-22699785)

[OafOrfUxAche]

Apparently not enough experienced mil rearcrew applied for the Managed Path so the RAF is going to offer a tax-free golden goodbye of £50k to encourage SAR rearcrew to leave the military and join Bristow. This new scheme will be known as a Financial Redundancy Incentive and will benefit both the RAF, by getting rid of unnecessary NCA, and Bristow, who will now have a bigger cadre of experienced rearcrew to man their bases. The individuals will also be much better off!:ok:

[snaggletooth]

Is it April the first again so soon! :D

[SeaKingDriver]

Have any pruners caught wind of any MilSAR guys getting called up for interview yet?

[pasptoo]

Have any pruners caught wind of any MilSAR guys getting called up for interview yet?

That could probably explain why there were no crews at Lossie on the weekend. #offstate :-(

[edwardspannerhands]

Looks like the first Bristow's S-92 for Stornoway is just about to touch down.:)

[Dontshoutatme1]

Good luck to those who have applied. I have applied, but so have another 6 people from the camp I am stationed, all for captains roles, and the majority with the same preference of location. I am not currently on a SAR base ; so add those to the current SAR guys applications and all the other ex SAR personnel that have probably been waiting for this for the last 10 years and Bristow have a very large pool of prospective employees to cherry pick from! Keeping everything crossed! Once again, good luck everyone!

[vib6er]

Phoned Bristow HR recently and was given an estimate of late August for interviews/no thanks letters, seems to be taking awhile to sort.

[meanttobe]

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTkxMDc3fENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZ T0z&t=1

Slide 25 shows training aircraft and operationl aircraft delivery timings. 189 for training arrives first (Q1 FY 15) followed by 92 for training (Q2 FY 15). Things starting to take shape.

[jimf671]

... 189 for training arrives first (Q1 FY 15) followed by 92 for training (Q2 FY 15).

Is this not the same information as was provided through the Bristow website some months ago but maybe along with a few up-to-date financial bits?

And it's worth noting that the FY dates are based on year ending 31st March, so Q1 FY 15 is actually the second quarter of calendar year 2014. This is not really news but exactly what one would expect.

[detgnome]

That may explain why I was a bit confused. The Bristow docs dates all seemed a bit late, but the FY bit explains why they seem later than the dates specified by DFT.

[jimf671]

Aye. It's a pity the document wasn't written in English.

;-)

[anotherpruner]

Evening all,

Has anyone heard anything regarding their applications yet?

anotherpruner :)

[anotherpruner]

Thank you for the reply Flounder. I will just wait with baited breath for any news...

[satsuma]

When is the AW189 due to be certified? Have the problems experienced when the 139 entered SAR service been eliminated in the enlarged model?

[jimf671]

If we are lucky, Tallsar might come and give us the benefit of his knowledge of this matter now that he is no longer constrained by the dark forces.

[sAviator]

Hi,

Does anyone know, about how are the rotation going to be??

Thanks

[Megawart]

With regards to the rotation, the Bristow concept is all pretty conventional as far as I can gather, the top bit goes round very rapidly and lift is produced...

[satsuma]

I can answer one of my own questions. Certification is scheduled for the end of 2013. :ok:

What about those problems with the 139 doing SAR though? Lighting and problems over the water at night wasn't it? Have these issues been designed out of the 189?

[jimf671]

... 139 ... ... Have these issues been designed out of the 189?

I have never been in a 139. What little I have heard about them has made me suspicious about their SAR capability.That conversations about the 139 in the SAR role tend to be hushed one-to-ones in quiet corners does nothing to instill confidence.

You mention: lighting and some kind of problem with over-water ops at night.

I hear: very limited space, generally poor role eqpt, missing tail rotors and 20+ fatalities.

What I am hearing about the 189 is that it has a basic family resemblance, 139 door(s?), a lot more space, role equipment similar to the S-92, oodles of control power, big-boy engines and transmission, and lots of new bits and bobs.

I am generally happy with the story so far. I am keen to know more though, and particularly about the reported SAR Prototype which one might expect to have done a few hours by now.

I am, however, somewhat amused by part of the Bristow website that mentions capacity for "additional standing persons". Perhaps the extinction of Homo Floresiensis was prematurely reported.

[Adroight]

Jim, Perhaps you should have a chat with the many other operators throughout the world who have been happily using the AW139 in a SAR role for years to get a better picture of the capability. The UK is not the only place where SAR is flown at night - although to listen to some you'd think it was.

[[email protected]]

Yes, a helicopter that hovers 8 degrees nose up with a small cabin and poor ground clearance is a perfect SAR helicopter for UK.

[satsuma]

Hi Adroight,

Where it is used elsewhere, is it used over the sea at night with minimal references and in poor visibility? If so that's important because that's what will be required by the 189 in the UK.

[NRDK]

Stop knocking the Sea King, its more like 10 nose up. Besides it is nearly a retiree so show some respect to her.;)

[jimf671]

... many other operators throughout the world who have been happily using the AW139 in a SAR role ...

I am aware that the UK isn't the whole story. The 2007 contract had its shortcomings and the 139 may suffer because of that as much as anything else. There are a lot of mixed messages and mis-information out there about the S-92 and it may be that the same is true for the 139. However, if there are real problems then I would like to hear the real evidence.

Space is definitely an issue for those who are used to Sea King and S-92. However, people used to 135 and Jetranger will undoubtedly think it has bags of room.


Still uneasy about those tail-rotors though.

[thorpey]

Dear all, i'm not qualified to say but having just read 'On the wire' by Dave Peel, ex Navy and UK CG winch op, he describes his concerns about the a/c and says the cabin space is smaller than the Whirlwind that he first started SAR work in, seems a backward step to me, even though it is more powerful, two engines etc.

[satsuma]

Cabin space is an important point. The 189 is advertised as being slightly bigger but does it have the capacity to carry a Mountain Rescue Team with all of its equipment or to rescue a dozen mariners from a liferaft 150 miles offshore? These must be basic requirements for a SAR helicopter operating in the UK, as must the ability to do the same at night. It's not that long ago that a declared SAR asset in the UK was unable to rescue the survivors of a helicopter ditching in the North Sea in poor visibility because of crew and aircraft limitations. So have the previous night overwater concerns about its younger brother, the 139, been sorted out and if not, does the 189 have different design features to overcome those problems?

[Thomas coupling]

Why are you beating the living daylights out of the type of a/c being used?
It's a done deal, the a/c are well and trully tested around the world and some of the best and biggest helicopter operators buy them in droves.

So PERLEEEEEZE can we move on, get a life and talk about other aspects of the project and forget about the wrong type of a/c being used....Jeeeez.

As if ANYONE is going to listen or do anything now.....

[jimf671]

Lighten up TC. Few people know much about the 189. Its little sister may be a successful aircraft type but like everything else is not without its shortcomings. Valid questions are being asked.

Personally, I think that the 189 is likely to be very very good. I am expecting excellent mountain performance and cabin space similar to a Pavehawk (but without the need for those monster cabin tanks).

Survivor spec: tick the box. MRT standard load: tick the box. Range and endurance: tick the box. Performance at 4000 feet: tick the box.

La oss gå flyr.

[Thomas coupling]

Jim,

You've been around this industry a long time and it's obvious you are a very passionate participant - more power to your elbow,
but let's add some fresh air to this draggy thread shall we?

The chopper,s selected are inbound come hell or high water. What is the point of slagging them off or questioning their ability? They won't change.

When will people realise there is more to this process than the right a/c for the job???

People, places, prices: this is what counts and the nearest a/c will do.

The 189 is going to rejuvenate down south and for that matter the British helicopter industry which currently is NIL.[To speak of]. Thousands of jobs guaranteed, major affiliation with an EU partner (Italy) whether we like it or not. You rub my back and I'll rub yours......

The day someone buys the right product for the specific job in hand is the day that company goes to the wall!

The MoD was absolutely crap at Pr (still is) no qualified experts running that department hence a dreadful performance. Watch as the Bristow PR machine spins up over the next few years and turns this 'process' into a massive success story. Of course the government will not shy away from being a part of that methinks.

It will be a success make no bones about it.
Modern equipment, the best helicopter company in the world and some of the best "hand picked" pilots globally. Watch and smile!

[jimf671]

The Bristow PR machine?

Let me see now. I'm sure I remember them from somewhere.

Oh yes. Scottish Mountain Rescue magazine - Casbag edition 31 (http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mag-31-High-v2.pdf)

[Lala Steady]

On to people then TC - the present allocation of SAR flights in the UK has the RAF with 6, the MCA with 4 and the RN with 2.

How then does Bristow justify their plan to have each flight split one third RAF, one third MCA and one third RN? How does that keep the level of SAR expertise and knowledge where it is now?

What does that tell you about Bristow remaining a Navy club, especially since some posts are being filled with very recent ex-RN who are being called civilian?

Not a great plan for producing a world-leading and marketable SAR service of the underlying ethic of the crews is 'SAR is a secondary role and anyone can do it'.

Discuss

[SeaKingDriver]

OK, I'll bite... but treading carefully so as not to descend into a dark blue/light blue slagging match.


"How does that keep the level of SAR expertise and knowledge where it is now?"

I think you will find in all cases, 'SAR expertise and knowledge' is the same regardless of what colour Sea King you fly. Having known many RAF exchange officers through the years who have been thoroughly pleasant chaps this has proven to be true - albeit with a different con/patter! We just choose to do things a little differently and rotate people through different roles. What this means is that the number of SAR qualified personnel is much larger than the number of bods currently on 771/GSF.


"underlying ethic of the crews is 'SAR is a secondary role and anyone can do it'"

While SAR IS a secondary role for any helicopter, this statement in the way it is meant is utter rubbish. All personnel on the RN's SAR units consider themselves SAR aircrew. Long gone are the days of ASW with a bit of winching thrown in. There have however, been many rescues conducted by Lynx, Merlin & various mks of Seaking over the years (and even a few Chinooks!) that have been hugely impressive.


That is all ;)

SKD

[Adroight]

Where it is used elsewhere, is it used over the sea at night with minimal references and in poor visibility? If so that's important because that's what will be required by the 189 in the UK.

No of course the UK is the only country in the world that operates overwater, night IFR, SAR - just ask Crab. He is the one with who has extensive world-wide civilian SAR experience in the AW139 :rolleyes:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

How then does Bristow justify their plan to have each flight split one third RAF, one third MCA and one third RN? How does that keep the level of SAR expertise and knowledge where it is now?


If the workforce at SAR flights in 3 years' time is at or near this division of backgrounds, I'll be going on the Trilby diet.

Lala,

I really hope your post was intended in jest (Crab's sidekick eh? Chosen from a cast of thousands no doubt)...if you mean what you say, you are hardly helping those in the light blue world who are really hoping for a Bristow slot.

TOTD

[jimf671]

... The 189 is going to rejuvenate down south and for that matter the British helicopter industry ...

Yes TC. I understand. With a shrinking defence force and a tiny air corps, the south will have to wean itself off its state dependency and join the real world.


... major affiliation with an EU partner (Italy) ...

Two EU partners? Italy and Poland?

[Lala Steady]

SKD - then you will be able to tell the Dft when all that SAR expertise was last used winching to a windfarm, taking part in a multi-agency exercise, conducting multiple beacon homings (or even single for that matter) or even something really basic like night wet winching.

SAR expertise is more than just pitching up and cuffing it and, having done both sides of the fence, the crabs have the far more professional approach becauyse they actually do some training.

[Thomas coupling]

Lala: I'm not biting.....

[jimf671]

... able to tell the Dft ...

The contract is awarded at about 80% of the lower end of the value estimated in the contract notice, in spite of extra aircraft, and a quarter of the figures being talked about for the previous version in 2010/11, so the gongs are in the bag.

I do wonder what chance there is of being able to tell the DfT anything?



... actually do some training ...

I expect that will be the principal difference between a good implentation and a bad implementation.

[Thomas coupling]

Jim, I see a MRT beginning to disband over the next few weeks with them standing down completely by the end of the year?

[jimf671]

I was thinking more in terms of where are we going to get 20 more foot-soldiers from (per team) if nobody does enough training for rocky bits at night and the police and coastguard don't learn to do grid references.

[satsuma]

can we move on, get a life and talk about other aspects of the project and forget about the wrong type of a/c being used

TC, it would be a very strange world if the potential inadequacies of aircraft selected for a project of national importance did not attract concern from some quarters.

Which aspects of the project would you rather talk about? Night wet winching was suggested but you weren't biting. It's probably pointless talking about night wet winching anyway because it doesn't sound like there will be sufficient training hours for it. How can that be the way ahead?

[[email protected]]

No of course the UK is the only country in the world that operates overwater, night IFR, SAR - just ask Crab. He is the one with who has extensive world-wide civilian SAR experience in the AW139
I have at least flown a SAR 139 over the water at night:)

Apart from the fact I don't like the transition profile in light winds, it is more than capable at night now - it's just that what was accepted by the MCA and CHC a few years ago wasn't fit for purpose as the lighting was inadequate and the SAR modes for the autopilot hadn't been certified.

AFAIK the 189 is just a 139 with a plug in the fuselage to make it longer so it should breeze through certification and be at least as capable as the 139.

[jimf671]

There have been decades of flying Sea Kings over heaving decks and in spindrift-filled gullies, producing a huge knowledge base across aircrew, controllers, engineering, management and SAR partners.

We have seen 5 years of SAR flying by the S-92 and we are approaching Year Zero for the AW189.

No matter who is doing the flying, a capability droop is inevitable.

What will minimise this effect?

[la-la]

"the police and coastguard don't learn to do grid references"

Jim

Care to expand ?

[jimf671]

The Coastguard have statutory responsibility for SAR below the high water mark and the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude.

The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.

Now we hand responsibility for the UK SAR Helicopter Service to the DfT and brand it HM Coastguard. Between 50% and 70% of tasks will be land tasks. DfT spec: "... display of the Aircraft's geographic position shall be capable of being displayed in the following formats: latitude, longitude, British National Grid and Irish National Grid."

Postcode districts in rural areas are up to 90km across. Complete postcodes in mountainous areas or military training areas can refer to areas 10km across.

Many devices that can accept multiple types of reference system do not provide grid references in the format that is most widely known and understood.

There is something called ARCC that can make a lot of this go away. But it can still get interesting.

=============================================

I say again

" ... ... a capability droop is inevitable.

What will minimise this effect?"

[IrishSarBoy]

" ... ... a capability droop is inevitable.

cobblers:p

[la-la]

"the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude."

Bugger! why do we teach OS grids as one of the core skills for the guys and girls on the ground then !


"But it can still get interesting."

Yep they phone the for the OS grid for the HLS (see above)

Maybe its me but you do seem to have a MR are gods and CG are **** attitude !

As others have said this is the kit that's coming it may not be perfect but its pretty good in comparison to most country's and I would rather be F##ked up in this country knowing the collective capabilities of UK-SAR were coming to help me.

[SARowl]

coastguard don't learn to do grid references.

Oh yes they do...

[jimf671]

Maybe its me but you do seem to have a MR are gods and CG are **** attitude !

No way. The MCA is a world class maritime regulatory and safety organisation.

Look at it this way. If there was a major new aspect of maritime rescue, would you give it to the police/MR?

==================================

Looking at our neighbour to the NE, look at what is happening with NAWSARH to see how they do things in a joined-up way. Justice department working with Defence and Health. Then there are the JRCC where everyone is sitting in the same office. What can we do in the UK, with the hand we are being dealt, to get more joined-up thinking and joint working without degrading specialist skills?

[jeepys]

Jim, regarding your comments in post 677 then even if the RAF/RN kept the SAR contract but had new aircraft then surely we would be in the same position in having no experience on type (unless you used a Merlin) to fall back on and therefore a compromise in the service would again be inevitable?

Just how are we going to get around this problem in this commercial world upon where we live?

The Seaking has to go. A new type has to replace it. All the previous 25 or so years experience gained in operation will be history soon, or at least a large portion of it.

J

[jimf671]

... even if the RAF/RN kept the SAR ...

Yes.


As stated previously,
... No matter who is doing the flying, ...

[Lala Steady]

Replacing the aircraft is inevitable but if the transition plan works there will be enough experience on type to avoid a drop in capability but ONLY if the right crews are operating the new aircraft.

If you replace a large proportion of the crab crews who do have the local knowledge and strength in depth from multiple SAR tours and replace them with 'done one tour and therefore SAR qualified' crews from the RN who only operate at 2 sites in UK - that's where you will find a drop in capability.

Don't expect anyone to like it but it's the truth.

[jimf671]

That is certainly one of the potential problems. However, I am aware, and I hope others are, that each of the current providers has something to bring to the party. A wise operator would recruit appropriate diversity.

[jungliebeefer]

La La ... what a complete load of guff!! Local knowledge??? its called navigation - so when Chivenor covers the Culdrose patch and vice versa does this mean there is a drop in capability - of course not - you are talking complete nonsense. SAR is all about captaincy - this is why the RN system relies on using experienced rotary drivers from other areas - they have the captaincy experience to make sensible decisions - in exactly the same way that the RAF SAR force utilises experienced pilots as their captains. You need to move away from the idea that SAR is a black art ... it is'nt. The correct training in a capable aircraft = no drop in capability. Crews (RAF, RN and Civilian) will move from the Sea King (and a plethora of other types) and bring their skills with them ... hence no drop in capability.

[Vie sans frontieres]

SAR is all about captaincy

Wrong. SAR is all about rearcrew. Only a poor SAR captain would think it revolves around him.

in exactly the same way that the RAF SAR force utilises experienced pilots as their captains

RAF SAR captains are often first tourists. The reason they're able to do this is that they select and train them properly to be dedicated SAR pilots and in so doing ensure that listening to advice from the rearcrew is second nature.

SAR is considered not to be a black art by those who haven't been exposed to much of it or haven't been doing it very well. Which one are you?

[jimf671]

Breathe deeply Vie! Everyone who has seen the navy SAR flights do their thing up close knows that one of the key elements helping them to punch above their weight is the responsibility shared with the back. Hopefully one of them will PM to JB and help him understand.

[Lala Steady]

JunglieBeefer - you have made my point far better than I did:ugh:

Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems - unfortunately from what can be gathered about their recruiting and manning policy it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform

[Thomas coupling]

Junglie - when will you ever learn. La-la is only here to 'hook' people.....stay away if you can't cope with the baiting. However when you do speak you speak the truth!

Vie: SAR, like ALL complex tasking is only EVER about Captaincy. The term describes the command decision making that goes on. It is a generic description not neccessarily owned by pilots. Some Navy cabs have Captains sitting in the back as Observers for eg.

RAF SAR first tourers will ALWAYS have a more experienced 'Captain' sitting next to them and holding their hand. They will receive advice from the rear crew but ONLY the Captain will make the final decision. Hence "Captaincy".

You might be getting it mixed up with: SAR and Captaincy.

SAR is about getting the rear crew to the scene to do their stuff.
Captaincy is all about carrying out that act - safely and efficiently.

Overall - and this is for everyone out there....do not misunderstand:
SAR is NOT a black art, it is a run of the mill secondary duty for "experienced" crews. Nothing more and nothing less. However many have tried to build massive empires on the back of it. [Bit like HR!].

[backtothebeat]

The Coastguard have statutory responsibility for SAR below the high water mark and the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude.

The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.


Having spent the last ten years flying as a police air observer can I just say that we don't fly anywhere based on a postcode..?

Admittedly we tend to cover a small area compared to a SAR crew and the majority of it is done with a street atlas. However when called (fairly regularly) to go further afield we simply breakout the maps and navigate there..!!

The point is we actually do know how to use OS, Grid, Lat/Long... Whatever gets thrown at us.

Postcodes can be useful when using Skyforce... However only when navigating to a house.

We're more versatile than that thank you.

[switch_on_lofty]

Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems ... it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform

So proving that the RN is the best then?

[[email protected]]

TC - you of all people should know better! Op Captaincy in the RAFSARF is exactly that - and there are no filters protecting a new Captain, he or she could be on shift with the least experienced co-pilot the day after being awarded captaincy - it's one of the reasons the Sqn Cdrs make such a big deal about it.

And, to be clear, SAR is not a black art but it requires lots of training to be good at it and 'run of the mill' it certainly isn't but only people with TC's background insist on thinking like that;)

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: By that account then one could argue that a not very experienced RAF crew might be called upon to do any SAR mission - hence why it is relatively straight forward and uncomplicated and 'secondary'.....:eek:

My previous post was extolling the virtues of 'new' RAF ab initio's being escorted everywhere by more experienced Captains to start...before they are 'let loose'.:p

[jimf671]

... it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform

Do me a favour 'switch_on_lofty'. Send me the link to the Bristow job ad for Observers. I must have missed that one.

[jungliebeefer]

La La et al,

My apologies I agree wholeheartedly that SAR is all about the guys down the back - however the argument I was responding to revolved around how there was going to be a drop in capability due to a change in aircraft - seeing as it is safe to assume that initally the majority of winchops and winchmen will be coming from the military and that their skills are not specific to a particular aircraft (dynamic risk assessment / paramedic skills / winch skills and a plethora of others ...) - I assumed that the drop in capability you were refering to (and specifically local area knowledge), related to of pilots adapting to the new aircraft - hence my point.

My post was not clear in this regard and apologies for any dispersion cast at the guys down the back.

Humbly yours,

JB

PS. La La with regard to you comment re drop in capability - what complete guff!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

If you replace a large proportion of the crab crews who do have the local knowledge and strength in depth from multiple SAR tours and replace them with 'done one tour and therefore SAR qualified' crews from the RN who only operate at 2 sites in UK - that's where you will find a drop in capability.


So people getting in via the Managed Transition are guaranteed a job at or near their current mil location, to preserve local knowledge? Indeed...

[Tourist]

Can I just say how much I am enjoying this thread:D

Lots of crabs just digging and digging.....


....and every self impressed statement makes them less and less likely to make up much of future SAR.

Carry on!

p.s. it's just hovering.

[jimf671]

... makes them less and less likely to make up much of future SAR.

What are you trying to say Tourist? Don't they have PA Scale in the Navy?:E

[switch_on_lofty]

jimf671 (is this your Dii login btw?)

Try google next time but here you go!

https://bristowsar.com/index.php/recruitment/

I'd suggest that WinchOp isn't quite the same as Observer but make of that what you will. Compared to an Observers' primary roles the winch bit is fairly straightforward from what I've seen.

SoL

[jimf671]

(Last three from a very very early previous existence! DII much more complicated.)

One of the reasons that I am so sure that all the current providers have something to bring to the table is because of these differences in responsibilities and career structure either in the back or in the front.

This is the UK's first entirely planned service. If Bristow can be Darwinian about it then the diversity can breed evolution.

[meanttobe]

Bristow Group Sign Contract for 11 AW189 Helicopters for UK Search & Rescue | AgustaWestland (http://www.agustawestland.com/news/bristow-group-sign-contract-11-aw189-helicopters-uk-search-rescue)

[airsound]

For me, one of the slightly more interesting bits about the Agusta Westland press release is thisThe contract was signed by ..... Geoff Hoon, Managing Director International Business, AgustaWestland,Now, I could have sworn that there was a Labour Secretary of State for Defence called Geoff Hoon. If I remember correctly, he was rather suddenly reshuffled to Transport, and was subsequently dropped from all frontline politics after the 2010 Cash for Influence scandal. Or perhaps that was someone called Buff Hoon?

So, whoever it was, it seems that that famous revolving door is still merrily going round - especially when you remember that when that Hoon was Def Sec, AW was awarded a £1.7billion contract as preferred bidder to supply Future Lynx. I don't remember any other firm being invited to bid.

Funny old world.

airsound (who apologises for thread drift)

[jimf671]

Not so much thread drift as the revolving door not being news!

Anyone heard anything about the SAR prototype? That would be much more interesting.

[Hilife]

I must say, I am surprised to see the SVP International Business getting his mug shot into a UK signing photo opportunity, as one would think a photo shoot at Palam Air Force Base in India would be more in keeping with his position.

As some say, a funny old world. ;)

[meanttobe]

AW189 arrives in UK for SAR certification | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/07/31/aw189-arrives-in-uk-for-sar-certification/)

[satsuma]

On their homepage https://bristowsar.com/ Bristow are claiming that they are 'the leading provider of search and rescue services in the UK'. How have they managed to reach these heights in just six weeks of GapSAR and what is the yardstick by which they are measuring their excellence?

Elsewhere they claim to have 'enormous respect for the service that our military colleagues have provided over the last 70 years of UK Search and Rescue'. Perhaps they could show some of that respect by dropping the claim that they already exceed their capabilities.

[Grumpyasever]

Satsuma.

Stop it!
Bristow have been involved in SAR operations around the UK since a WS 55 operation at Manston in the late 60s early 70s. The crews will do a fantastic job as always!

[satsuma]

The crews will do a fantastic job as always!

How do you know this? I'm sure they'll try their best but how do you know it will be 'fantastic'? How will this excellence be measured?

It's outrageous for Bristow to claim that they're top dogs after just six weeks of providing the service at just one (and now two) locations. Manston 40 years ago is an irrelevance. SAR has moved on a little since then.

[chcoffshore]

Bristow had the contract for civil UK SAR before CHC won the contract back in i think 2005 ish.

[Fareastdriver]

SAR has moved on a little since then.

Satsuma. Eight posts so far; all but one slagging some aspect of the successful SAR bid. As previous stated Bristow ran it for some twenty odd years.

Why don't you move on.

[jimf671]

Satsuma, I'm with Fareastdriver on this one. Your contribution so far demonstrates a poor grasp of the facts.

The facts are out there. They are waiting for you.

If you need help with that then PM me.

[satsuma]

As previous stated Bristow ran it for some twenty odd years.


How does that make them the UK's leading SAR provider?

[nessboy]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjb0iEEbHaqW1oN_xXU9YAAFIGLe07CKqG8ZDOP1L Cu40_o9Mzfw

[snakepit]

How does that make them the UK's leading SAR provider?

Maybe, because after a fair and transparent bid process, they were selected from all the competition to be exactly that? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Variable Load]

Quote:
How does that make them the UK's leading SAR provider?

Maybe, because after a fair and transparent bid process, they were selected from all the competition to be exactly that?

There are many qualities that may lead to an operator being respected as "leading", however I don't think being cheapest would be one of them - which is almost certainly why they were selected :E

[jimf671]

There are many qualities that may lead to an operator being respected as "leading", however I'm don't think being cheapest would be one of them - which is almost certainly why they were selected


I have as many questions as anyone about how this ended up so cheap, particularly with the aircraft numbers being increased in the later stages of the process. However, it is worth remembering that Bristows were cheapest only of the three who made it to the later stages.

If the facts show that Bristow do well, I shall praise them. If the facts show that Bristow screw up, then, unless it's something I know they have been well warned about, I shall give them a second chance. If the facts show that they persistently fail then I shall experience a strong desire to get very vocal but instead I shall probably try to get constructive.

At the moment, they are a few weeks into Gap, they have a decent plan for the Main contract, though a rather vulnerable timetable for the 189.

[[email protected]]

To be fair, it wasn't all about price and a great deal hinged on demonstrating to the DfT that all the promises could be delivered on and that suitable contingency plans were in place to cover all sorts of eventualities.

What is slightly concerning is that the DfT have been advertising for a SAR transition co-ordinator (a fairly important and crucial job methinks) but, due to civil service blinkers and structures, the salary is £41K. The old saying of pay peanuts and get monkeys comes to mind:ugh:

[Thomas coupling]

https://jobs.civilservice.gov.uk/company/nghr/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTM1NTUzMiZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT0xMzY4Jm93bmV yPTUwNTAwMDAmb3duZXJ0eXBlPWZhaXImYnJhbmRfaWQ9MCZ2YWNfbmdoci5 uZ2hyX2RlcHQ9MTgzOTM3JnJlcXNpZz0xMzc2Mzg1OTg1LWE3ZmZkN2NiOGF iNGYwZjQxNmFiMmYxNmFmMGMzY2JmMTIzZWRhMzA=

Currently the civil service are undergoing a pay freeze.
I hope for the sake of the industry, that the successful incumbent exercises their priviliges passionately and not because they are only a Level 7 public servant. Good luck with this hugely responsible job.

[ericferret]

First time I ever heard anyone call £41,000 a year peanuts!!!!

[Fareastdriver]

After tax and NI that is about £30,000; £4,000 above average take home pay. An SAR co-pilot would get more than that.

[Thomas coupling]

Eric,

The successful applicant will be responsible for ensuring an EU directive is carried out to national standards and ensuring that a military to civilian conversion is not only seamless but fit for purpose. This transition is one of the bigger DfT initiatives of recent times and they are deeming it Level 7 supervisory standard.
For joe public that is Flight Lt level or Aldi manager level.

I don't blame the MCA for this, it's the ones who pull their strings that have attached this little importance to the post. But the MCA will be remembered as the agonists.

[jimf671]

Peanuts to Crab and TC though. :-)



However, taking a look at TC's estimation of Flt Lt status, I checked on MoD-DASA website. It says that a Grade 7/Principal Officer/Band 2, is equivalent to OF-5, which is Group Captain. Obviously not Gp Capt wages though.

[snakepit]

Crab

To be fair, it wasn't all about price and a great deal hinged on demonstrating to the DfT that all the promises could be delivered on and that suitable contingency plans were in place to cover all sorts of eventualities. :D:D:D:D

Variable load

There are many qualities that may lead to an operator being respected as "leading", however I don't think being cheapest would be one of them - which is almost certainly why they were selected

If you were faced with 2 building quotes (ignoring Bond only because they didn't bid on lot 3), both for work on your house, i.e. the same work. Purporting to deliver the same standard at completion (give or take an extra light here for an extra plug there). Both with proven success in the past, why, oh why would you choose the one that freely admits that the 20% extra it was going to charge was just a boardroom policy to keep profits up. Why are you so bent on cheap equaling poor value? :sad:

I bet you never go to Tesco/asda/morrisons (delete as appropriate) for your petrol!!

[jimf671]

I bet you never go to Tesco/asda/morrisons (delete as appropriate) for your petrol!!

You're right. I never go to Tesco/Asda/Morrisons for my petrol. They drop out during the pre-selection stages of the procurement process and I go to the cheapest of those remaining.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

So the CS officer who is required to:

manage the effective delivery of the Agency's Counter Pollution (CP) and Search and Rescue (SAR) aviation transition programmes by assuring the technical solutions offered are regulatory and contractually compliant with appropriate certification, manage supplier negotiations on behalf of the Agency to ensure value for money maintained as part of the delivery phase and interface with key stakeholders within the supply chain, DfT Hels, MOD and MCA business units, and supported by the Aviation Manager and Commercial Lead, to ensure the delivery programme is achieved against target milestones and meets critical success criteria.

will be paid less than a Yr 1 co-pilot on the very scheme that he seems to hold overall responsibility for delivery?

Should attract some first class candidates there...

[Thomas coupling]

ferzakerly........

[ericferret]

Dont know where you get your figures from Far East but the average UK wage before tax is about £31000.

UK Average Salary Graphs | Career Advice | Monster.co.uk (http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/salary-benefits/pay-salary-advice/uk-average-salary-graphs/article.aspx)

You could always get a woman to do the job and pay even less!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fareastdriver]

before tax is about £31000.

Knock off NI and income tax and it comes to about £26,000; the figure I mentioned.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Crab,

What is slightly concerning is that the DfT have been advertising for a SAR transition co-ordinator (a fairly important and crucial job methinks) but, due to civil service blinkers and structures, the salary is £41K.

Have you put in for it? Would have thought it was a perfect opportunity for you to ensure future standards of SAR and with your gold plated pension and people in SAR don't do it for the money attitude, the salary is irrelevant to you surely...

Of course maybe you are trying to put others off to improve your chances :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

with your gold plated pension

What has a service pension got to do with a subsequent salary????

[jimf671]

What has a service pension got to do with a subsequent salary?

Jobs for people who don't need jobs. Very British.


(Similar example. Good technical civilian job advertised in a public organisation several years ago. Apparent job content and conditions are good but the salary band is not impressive. I approach a gentleman retired from a related department. First comment: "That job'll be for so-and-so, he's due to retire this year.")

[Spanish Waltzer]

What has a service pension got to do with a subsequent salary????

Quite a lot actually as it can affect your tax position :ugh::rolleyes:

so easy...:E

[[email protected]]

Hmmmm - £41K plus pension for 4 years as SAR coordinator or £80-100K as a SAR Captain - I think I'll take my chances with managed transition thanks;)

[Fareastdriver]

Quite a lot actually as it can affect your tax position

Having spent a considerable part of my life as a contract pilot after retirement can you give me an example where the extra tax one pays is more than the extra salary one earns.

In all my various negotiations if anybody mentioned income from pensions I started getting up from the chair.

[Thomas coupling]

Fareastdriver: Hear hear. You do your 'bit' in a previous life, build up a pension pot in so doing then some jealous creep thinks it should be used to offset against another full time job working for peanuts.
Get a life guys.

Shouldnt the job spec justify the remuneration or vice versa.?

Since when does one sacrifice their pension to keep working??

Blood* annoys me that thorny issue................

[Helimed24]

Has anyone heard from Bristow on shortlisting yet?

Cheers.

[[email protected]]

I think they were pretty swamped - I have heard the number of applications in the managed transition to be in the high 200s and those outwith that 6 times that number!

Strangely, I thought that the managed transition was for those of us actually in the mil SAR Force - there most certainly aren't 200 plus of us even if everyone applied - where have all the hangers-on come from?

[detgnome]

My take on how competitive it is likely to be:

10 Bases, 10 pilots per base plus approx 10 trg staff = 110 pilots total

3 Bases already manned, not unreasonable to assume that most will TUPE

10 Trg staff probably already in place/nominated or identified

Leaves 70 places available

Captain to Co-Pilot ratio probably 6:4

42 Captain positions and 28 Co-pilot positions to be filled - doesn't even consider the availability of Portland personnel.

Some co-pilots have already been shortlisted....

[Spanish Waltzer]

Some captains have already been shortlisted too...

The mil managed transition is for anyone within the mil who considers they have appropriate SAR experience. Not just those currently engaged in SAR duties.

[jimf671]

... where have all the hangers-on come from?

Clearly, the immense stupidity of the whole situation is that, after the government has stumbled about trying to get this going for a whole decade, we find ourselves approaching the time when the chief executioner of military SAR, JHC, is going to arrive back from the hot sandy places and have bu99er all to do.



(At one stage the DfT documents asked the contractor to explain how they would provide for SAR aircrew serving at CHIVENOR who wished to continue to do SAR there, or in the vicinity ... . It's therefore not surprising that Crab is interested in this question!)

[jimf671]

... 42 Captain positions and 28 Co-pilot positions to be filled ...

Hardly matters if there's nobody in the back.

Experienced rear-crew on PA Scales may not be interested in terms and conditions like some kind of trolley dolly in goretex.

[[email protected]]

Spanish - that's not how it was sold to us - I thought it was supposed to be a method of de-risking the project for the DfT by taking on current UK SAR crews with all the requisite skills and experience except time on type.

Anyone can say they have done SAR if they have hovered over the water but doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to real UK SAROPs! My last rescue was 5 days ago (multi-agency, winching through trees 500' up a cliff) how many of those who have applied will have any recent or relevant experience?

[detgnome]

Hardly matters if there's nobody in the back.


Rearcrew were/are always going to be the more difficult positions to fill.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Crab,

....and breathe....

If you re-read my post, anyone in the military who considers they have appropriate experience...can apply via the military managed transition route. Doesnt mean that Bristow need to employ them.

I was simply answering your post about the number of applications. Its Bristow's job to now filter those applications in order to ensure a suitable mix of appropriate experience is available at each Unit to de-risk the project iaw DfT requirements.

Then again surely by now you, of all people, know that you shouldn't believe everything you are told/sold by your senior officers...:ok:

[snakepit]

Managed transition for those who are unsure is:

Bristow Helicopters Ltd and the MOD have agreed to a ‘managed transition’ to enable Service Personnel who wish to continue to work in UK SAR to do so without risking the current military service provision. This process is entirely voluntary and available to all ranks of military personnel in SAR roles. All decisions will be based on the manpower requirements of the RN and the RAF at the time.

Thats from the full article from the Government at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/future-of-uk-helicopter-search-and-rescue-agreed

Read into it what you wish but the whole reason for it would seem to be to do so without risking the current military service provision

[[email protected]]

Spanish - as I said, that is not how it was sold to the RAF SAR Force, access to the roadshows was tightly controlled and the emphasis was on taking current SAR crews.

Snakepit - I wouldn't put too much stock by that article, it is a news story and as such doesn't have to paint an accurate or fair picture. If someone outside the SAR community read it they would come away with the belief that the RAF and RN are equal partners in the service provision rather than the actual 6 to 2 ratio that exists. Additionally, the understanding we had was that as well as ensuring a smooth handover of service to Bristow, the managed transition was to keep the DfT happy that taking a number of current SAR crews would prevent too much dilution of UKSAR experience, especially on NVD.

[snakepit]

Crab - Yes I know what you mean, but I think we are talking the same thing anyway. I.E the reason for managed transition will by its nature (hopefully) result in the SAR experience of those in the mil who want to, being part of the future.
I only hope powers that be in the mil allow that to happen that way :ugh:

[Spanish Waltzer]

Have Bristow confirmed they will follow the 6:2 ratio when they transition the mil chaps......:ooh:

[Hummingfrog]

Crab

As a retired RAF SAR pilot and 20yr offshore pilot I would put your interest foremost. The civilian market is totally different to the services with its constant movement of aircrew on posting. Once a civilian company has the required number of pilots that is it, it doesn't matter how qualified and attractive to the company you are they won't offer you a job as all positions are filled. The churn rate of companies can also be small, depending on the economy and job situation, so it could be years before a opening appears.

Timing is everything. I went to look round Bond on a Monday and they offered me a job starting the next day as they had vacancies - a lot of their pilots had gone fixed wing - and I was already NS qualified having spent 3 yrs flying in all weathers from Lossie - oil companies at that time required Commanders to have at least 1 winter operating in the NS before they would allow you to fly on their contracts.

I also became a Commander in Sep that year - right place, time and qualifications.

About 1 year later the fixed wing opportunities dried up so nobody left and therefore Bond recruitment became virtually non-existent.

If you have the chance to leave the RAF now with a job offer from Bristows which suits you I would go because the RAF will only be interested in trying to keep the SAR flights going until Bristows have taken over. If by then Bristows is full then it could be "sandy side" or OIL and GAS if they need pilots!!

HF

[[email protected]]

Spanish - we have been told that the ratio will be 33%/33%/33% civ/RAF/RN on the flights, I guess the RN have bigger friends in important places than us!

Hummingfrog - thanks for the info, I naively hoped that such a vital govt contract would require a different approach in order to assure safety of the crews and those to be rescued.

You can't just grow SAR experience on trees, as you well know, and surely the safest option is to employ those already current in UKSAR now (those that want to go of course). There are clearly an awful lot of people out there who want to be SAR pilots and rearcrew but in the short term you need to transfer the existing experience because all the training (apart from that on type) has already been done and any other crewmembers will be playing catch-up on the job which is not ideal.

[HeliStudent]

When people talk about RAF Rescue I always think about the yellow Sea Kings but there are also the grey Griffins which are less talked about.

Could anyone tell me roughly how many rescue Griffins the RAF have across how many bases and how their tasking varies from the Sea King?

[jimf671]

RAF - Griffin HT1 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/griffinht1.cfm)

[Marly Lite]

Duff gen Jim.

RAF - Griffin HAR2 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/griffinhar2.cfm)

[llamaman]

In my opinion Managed Transition was primarily devised as a tool for MOD manning to maintain SAR cover during the handover phase. An added benefit is that it aIlows Bristow to cherry-pick the military element of their crewing solution. The notion that only current crews should be eligible is nonsense; of course it makes sense for a large chunk of crews to be in current practice but it doesn't take an awful lot of effort to get those (of appropriate skill and attitude) who are non-current up and running again. Despite the belief of some, SAR is neither a black art nor a discipline that those who have had some time elsewhere are unable to return to successfully.

[[email protected]]

SAR is neither a black art nor a discipline that those who have had some time elsewhere are unable to return to successfully. true indeed but it depends very much on how much you did, when and where and how long ago - I guess that is what the Bristow selection will be based on.

[jimf671]

Duff gen Jim.

It certainly is, unless you read the first two letters of the thread title!


(Of course, the same issue helps to obscure the true workload of the mixed UK SAR fleet, as highlighted by the Provision and Coverage Report of 2001, and again in 2006, but still not acted upon in 2013.)