UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

[Helimed24]

Cheers Crab, guessed as much!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Spanish - that's not how it was sold to us - I thought it was supposed to be a method of de-risking the project for the DfT by taking on current UK SAR crews with all the requisite skills and experience except time on type.


Not true, as proven by the number of people from Shawbury inter alia present at the Valley roadshow.


access to the roadshows was tightly controlled


Only in terms of anything commercial in confidence - some of those at the Valley roadshow had, shall we say, tenuous links to SAR! How much chance they stand is anyone's guess but there's nothing to stop them applying.


in the short term you need to transfer the existing experience


I hope for your sake that your assumption turns out to be right!


I guess that is what the Bristow selection will be based on


Err, that will be one of the considerations, but only one!


In my opinion Managed Transition was primarily devised as a tool for MOD manning to maintain SAR cover during the handover phase


Well of course it was - why else would they bother?!

[snakepit]

In my opinion Managed Transition was primarily devised as a tool for MOD manning to maintain SAR cover during the handover phase

Well of course it was - why else would they bother?!

And I refer you gentlemen back to post 748

[[email protected]]

Yes to avoid a mass PVR as everyone jumped ship and applied to Bristow for jobs.

But the process benefits everyone, not least the Govt, since peaks and troughs of availability of SAR service in the UK could be catastrophic; if there was a disaster in 2014/15 and the mil couldn't provide the aircraft and crews because so many had left and the new SAR service wasn't stood up in its place, the Govt would be asked why it contracted out SAR without a credible plan to cover contingencies.

As I said before - it has a lot to do with de-risking this contractorisation of SAR for the DfT.

[Savoia]

Balfour Beatty to build new SAR bases

Balfour Beatty has been awarded a £40m contract to lead the construction of search and rescue bases for Bristow Helicopters.

New facilities will be built at commercial airports at Caernarfon, Humberside, Inverness, Manston, Newquay, Prestwick and St Athan.

Buildings in Stornoway will be revamped.

Crews and helicopters to be based at Lee-on-Solent and Sumburgh will use existing facilities.

Bristow said Balfour Beatty, an infrastructure services company, would seek to use local firms to do the construction work.

Earlier this year, the Bristow Group won a 10-year contract from the Department for Transport to run the UK's helicopter search and rescue operations from 2015, taking over from the RAF and Royal Navy.

The new helicopter bases will be fitted with environmental technologies such as PV solar panels and rainwater harvesting systems.

BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-24063181)

[IFR Piglet]

Did they mention if they're going to procure Xbox or PS3?

Cos we're gagging to know!!!!!! Ahem.

Just me?? Wrong impression? Anyone seen my coat?

[detgnome]

Shouldn't that be Xbox One or PS4 for a forward thinking organisation.....?

[hot_spud]

...I need more detail on which Sky TV package is being introduced! Sports, Movies, a +package, HD.... I demand to know!!

[avturboy]

What about details such as planning permission, is it taken for granted that there will be on objections?

Also take Caernarfon, it doesn't have the best road access, there is a road but it's narrow and winding (for approx 2+ miles), not the best for construction traffic ... or maybe there will be a new road to provide access from the A499 :ok:

[ropedope]

Could anyone tell me what will happen to the Scottish SAR bases if Scotland votes for independence?

[jimf671]

Could anyone tell me what will happen to the Scottish SAR bases if Scotland votes for independence?

Why would anything happen dope?

(You don't happen to work for the Daily Mail in your spare time do you?)

[ropedope]

I believe the contract to provide SAR cover is with the UK government and not a Scottish one. If Scotland is no longer part of the UK how can that contract stand.
No I don't work for the mail.

[jimf671]

So what.

The same happens as always happens when countries divide and borders change. It happens all the time.

[farsouth]

The same happens as always happens when countries divide and borders change. It happens all the time.

I think maybe ropedope (and I) are not as familiar as you with what happens "all the time" - maybe you could enlighten us as to what the likely outcome would be.

I guess that the contract for the Scottish bases would terminate, and that government of the newly independent Scotland would decide on their own requirements and go out to tender, but I know very little about these things, as I have not seen them happen all the time.

[ropedope]

Thanks Farsouth,:ok: you hit the nail on the head. Politicians are not telling us, so I sought an answer from a wider audience.

[Manchester]

Politicians don't tell you to breathe in and out, so suggest you desist with immediate effect, at least until you've polled a wider audience

[[email protected]]

if the Scots vote for independence, I think the provision of SAR in their SRR will be the least of their financial and structural worries;)

Having that unctuous toad as a Prime Minister in charge of a whole independent country rather than as a budget manager is a horrifying thought!

[3D CAM]

Blimey Crab, don't beat about the bush! :D
3D

[nowherespecial]

Does anyone know if any of the SAR drivers from the Air Force have applied for jobs at Bristow under the TUPE employment law.

For those of you who don't know (I read it a year ago in a totally different context to Aviation), the Transfer of Undertakings for Protection of Employment law in the UK mandates that if a role is transferred from one contract to another, the person occupying it has the right to a job in the new entity at no worse than their original T&Cs.

It's a long shot but as the Govt is getting shot of SAR, I don't see any reason why they would object to TUPE applying?

Acas - Transfer of undertakings (TUPE) (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655)

Just a thought?

[snakepit]

Nowherespecial

Wow for just a thought you really didn't put much "thought" into that post! Factual errors, omissions and a link that disproves your own thought!

Outstanding :D

[jimf671]

I think maybe ropedope (and I) are not as familiar as you with what happens "all the time" - maybe you could enlighten us as to what the likely outcome would be.

The following neighbouring SRR belong to countries that have split from others during the last 110 years.

Iceland
Ireland
Norway

The following countries within the EU family have experienced major changes in boundaries or self-government during the last 30 years.

Croatia
Czechia
Estonia
Germany
Latvia
Lithuania
Slovakia
Slovenia


I guess that the contract for the Scottish bases would terminate, ...

Really? Only the Scottish ones? That is the not rooted in fact though is it? The current contract is with an organisation that will cease to exist.

In practice, all countries in these circumstances, regardless of a mass of inconvenient facts, take a pragmatic line of least resistance because there is simply far too much to do.

There is no room for a contractor that makes waves. Head down and play along. A hurried nationalisation does not help asset value and future earnings.

[Keke Napep]

Well it's good to see that everyone in the Bristow senior management hierarchy is always right up to date with senior personnel changes as evidenced from yet another announcement about management changes:


.........
- Ian Taylor is appointed Quality and Safety Manager – UK SAR. In this role Ian will report to Grant Ireland, Head of Global Quality Assurance and Safety. Ian will also have a matrix reporting line into the Accountable Manager, Mike Imlach, and also to Sam Willenbacher.........



Please join me in wishing everyone in the UK SAR team and key support areas every success in their new roles and responsibilities.

Mike Imlach, Director of European Operations

Sam Willenbacher, Director, UK SAR


Posted 17-Sep-2013 22:03:43 WAT


I'm sure Ian Taylor will love that as Grant Ireland left in June :E


Dear All,
Jon Stripling and Grant Ireland have separatelysubmitted their resignations effective June 21, 2013.


I'm sure that Grant Ireland, who is now reported to be working for former Bristow Senior VP, Richard Burman will be delighted to get all the news of his old employers :E .
Richard Burman, after his unexpectedly rapid departure from Bristow was subsequently appointmented as CEO of Portuguese company Omni Helicopters International who are expanding in Brazil and will provide strong competition to Bristow affiliate Lider Aviacao

[anotherpruner]

:(

Anotherpruner,

We have received your application for the position of WINCH OPERATOR-EBU00408. After careful consideration, we regret to inform you that you have not been selected for this position.

We will retain your candidate profile in our database and will inform you of job openings that match your profile if you selected this option. We also invite you to visit the Career Section on our Web site on a regular basis.

We thank you for your interest in Bristow Group Inc. and wish you all the best in your career.

Best regards,
Human Resources Department
Bristow Group Inc.



Replies to this message are undeliverable and will not reach the Human Resources Department. Please do not reply.

[Helimed24]

Anotherpruner,

We have received your application for the position of WINCH OPERATOR-EBU00408. After careful consideration, we regret to inform you that you have not been selected for this position.

We will retain your candidate profile in our database and will inform you of job openings that match your profile if you selected this option. We also invite you to visit the Career Section on our Web site on a regular basis.

We thank you for your interest in Bristow Group Inc. and wish you all the best in your career.

Best regards,
Human Resources Department
Bristow Group Inc.



Replies to this message are undeliverable and will not reach the Human Resources Department. Please do not reply.


SNAP :{:{

[jimf671]

Sam(antha) Willenbacher, Director, UK SAR, Bristow.

Former Director at Bristow Academy and former LSE Administrator.

So, training, regulations, contracts: tick the box.


Boats?
Rigs?
Mountains?
UK north of Watford?

[hot_spud]

Go on Jim. Please explain. I'm half in the know but need to know more (vested interest). Interested if you'd expand your last post. Ta.

[satsuma]

Is that London School of Economics or London Stock Exchange? I'm sure both will come in very handy. :hmm:

[Flounder]

Jim, as Sam Willenbacher is based in Aberdeen you should take the opportunity to meet her before you make assumptions about her ability to do her job.

So far Sam has been very keen to immerse herself in all aspects of the business (don't think of SAR as a national treasure, it is a business now like it or not) and has impressed many of the people who are actually working in SAR rather than interested parties observing from the sidelines muck spreading.

[jimf671]

Steady there. Just asking.

Many of the key players are pretty open-book (such as a well-furnished linkedin page or similar). Sam Willenbacher: not seen.


(And yes, I know it's a business. I have had CivSAR aircraft hovering over me many times during the last 25 years. Industrially, I have signed-off a few invoices for helicopters so that gives one a firm idea of the business angle.)

[backtothebeat]

So do we know if there is any chance of feedback for those rejected for the crew roles at Bristows... ?

[jeepys]

So why does someone have to have a publicly viewable history liked linkedin to make them credible?
You could argue that these internet social sites are just a penis extension (not in ms wilenbakers case) for many who like to show the world (or at least people they know) how good they are.
Always watch for the quietly confident ones. The noisy ones will tell you they can do the job but they are often far from the best at it.
That,s life in general not just flying.

[jimf671]

So why does someone have to have a publicly viewable history liked linkedin to make them credible?

It's not compulsory.


You could argue that these internet social sites are ...

... occupied by the stable extroverts recently mentioned on another pprune thread.

[vib6er]

anymore news on the recruitment front-positive or otherwise?
seems to be taking a hell of a long time,surely they need people to ramp up-type training etc by early 2014?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The first invitations to interview have been received. Although the timings have slipped somewhat since the spring, there's no great rush yet - those already current on the relevant types will only need a few months SAR training before the first bases stand up in 2015.

[Windsor Loft]

Not sure what the requirements for an interview are? I 'know' a pilot...7000 hours...has been CP of ASU, North Sea experience, NVG, current IR, lives 5 miles from one of the bases and couldn't get an interview for a Co-Pilot!

[Thomas coupling]

windsor loft: I think he didnt make the grade because:
a) No SAR experience.
b) Too many other applications with better credentials
c) What on earth does him lving close to a future base have to do with the selection process?

Apart from that he'd be fine.

[Windsor Loft]

a) No SAR experience.
b) Too many other applications with better credentials
c) What on earth does him lving close to a future base have to do with the selection process?

Thanks for your reply!! :D

a) Even for a co-pilot?

b) Even for a co-pilot?

c) - Absolutely nothing. It was just to make a point that the guy is very experienced, ticks 'most' boxes, no relocation issues and would more than likely show a loyalty to Bristow, seeing out his career as the base is on his door step.

[Flounder]

"Even for a co-pilot?"

Yes, even for a co-pilot. Why take someone with no SAR experience when you have a stack of 500plus cv/resumes from folks with previous or current SAR time.

[[email protected]]

Windsor - Bristow are taking over the whole of UK SAR which is currently populated by people with SAR experience - the more SAR experience they employ, the less their training burden and the more likely the new service can be launched on time with the required capability.

If you were to employ a new pilot on an ASU, would you take the guy with thousands of hours but no police experience or the guy with a few less who has done the job lots before?

[Thomas coupling]

Stick with it Windsor - no harm meant;)

OK, I have a Q for existing civvy SAR drivers under EASA regs, please:

There is a shout and you check out the weather and decide to go based on the rules governing launching for a SAR mission.[CAP 999 or whatever]. You drop the casualty off at the hospital under same rules. Now of course, you are no longer a SAR operation, but merely a commercial operation making your way back to base and the weather hasn't changed during launch and mission (it being sh*te) but out of limits under your commercial AOC. What now?
[There isn't an ILS at your base].

The mil used their "rules and limits" with some massaging around the edges to get home. How does a SAR outfit regulate for this?

{Genuine Q, no catchu or snipes:suspect:}.

[JB-123]

From CAP 999

SAR Operational Flight
A flight by a helicopter operating under a SAR AOC when tasked by the SAR Tasking Agency, the purpose of which is to locate and deliver to a place of safety persons in distress and recover to base. The procedures for this are to be defined by the operator and approved by the CAA.

So, just like a HEMS the mission starts and ends at the operating base.

[[email protected]]

JB - cap 999 actually says this at the top of the SAR section SAR is the activity of responding to tasking, locating and recovering persons either in
distress, potential distress or missing, delivering them to a place of safety and under controlled circumstances recovering to an operational base.
note the controlled circumstances caveat.

However, your extract is further down under SAR operational flights.

Which takes precedence? I am sure I don't know. Maybe someone who is operating under a SAR AOC can clarify.

[JB-123]

Crab
They are in essence the same thing.
My reference allows the completion of the mission back to base. The"controlled circumstances" will be those procedures laid down in the OM-A and approved by the CAA. These approved procedures, which will include use of exemptions and guidance to crews in their application, will provide a proper risk assessed set of procedures to allow SAR to function.
The aim will be to provide sufficiently flexible operating procedures, but preventing "red mist" / pressonitis such that missions drift from acceptable risk, to unacceptable risk to dangerous events.
HEMS has applied a similar style of risk v need management over many years and many tens of thousand of missions with acceptable levels of risk and outcomes. Granted, HEMS does not operate in the same day / night, poor wx as SAR may be required to do. However, the risk v need analysis is broadly similar. SAR benefits from a multi-crew approach with enhanced equipment levels etc, as such the CAA approved OM and the State AOC under which SAR will operate will reflect this and more to allow SAR to deliver its service safely and effectively.

[Fareastdriver]

Off thread but pertinent.

In the eighties Bristow were doing the financial efficiency thing. One of these was saving money by not doing the Helipad Take Off during base checks as it was not used offshore or on airfields.

A new captain picks up a medevac from offshore who is required to go direct to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary so he and his 332 delivers the casualty to the hospital helipad.

Two hours later it takes off again after a qualified captain has been driven out from the airfield.

They included HLOs in the checks after that because the oil companies were not impressed.

[[email protected]]

JB - I think the difference is about the returning to base.

The weather limits for a SAR rescue are often applied for the return to base where an internal aids letdown to the coast and a hover-taxy up an estuary might be completely acceptable in the military (can't speak for MCA).

I suspect that such activities might not be justified under an AOC such that aircraft may have to divert rather than returning to base and resuming standby.

[JB-123]

Crab
Correct re Mil and CAP999 will allow the same. The difference will be each base / weather case will have to be risk assessed, limits and procedures applied and OM approval granted for the AOC.
I suspect that post Haddon Cave, you now have had to do a similar justification process.
Remember it's "only" SAR, and the risks must be justified against the need. The need is to get back to base to re-fuel and re supply and be ready for further tasking. The risk is the weather and terrain etc getting back in.
Caernarfon and St Athan are both smack on the coast, so an acceptable low level let down be procedure could be devised and approved although anyone driving down the B4265 past St Athan when you do it might well soil their trews as you pass overhead!! But if your are spending a few million on a base you could always install some traffic lights!!
I suppose that we shall just have to wait and see, but the mechanism is certainly there.

[[email protected]]

Except that Caernafon is at sea level and St Athan is 200' up - one of the reasons Chivenor is such a good base - sea level and an excellent weather factor:ok:

[thorpey]

Does anyone know if there has been much interest from serving rearcrew to apply for vacancies at Bristows?

[snakepit]

Very good article in the autumn edition of The Log on page 18 for those who are interested. :D:D

[satsuma]

No link to the article? That's not very helpful. Should we guess?

I don't suppose it bigs up privatised SAR does it? ;) Seamless transition, no loss of capability, brilliant new aircraft.

[Helimed24]

thorpey,

I hear that there was enough uptake from the military and that Bristow have up'd their wages.

[thorpey]

Thanks for that, appreciated.

[HarryMonk]

Hopefully someone can shed some light on the rear crew process...

Initially Bristow HR sent a date of September... I see some guys have receive the "thanks but no thanks" pilots and crewmen alike..... I also hear the Gap SAR guys have only just got their contracts so are Bristow just behind the drag time wise?

[snakepit]

Satsuma
No link to the article? That's not very helpful. Should we guess?

Sorry I got the hard copy and I naturally assumed that a man of your resources would be able to just google it?!

It's actually about the history of UK SAR both military and civilian.

[meanttobe]

First production AW189 performs its maiden flight | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/25468#.UlbQTJm9LCQ)

[satsuma]

an extremely reduced time to market

But not rushed I trust. :ugh:

Is this really a good idea, praying that 50% of our nation's SAR future is secure in an as yet unproven aircraft?

[Sevarg]

Satsuma. I think the clue is in First Production. If it was first aircraft yes it would be a short time frame.

[jimf671]

But not rushed I trust. :ugh:

Is this really a good idea, praying that 50% of our nation's SAR future is secure in an as yet unproven aircraft?


Yes. It's a risk.

Time to move on.

[satsuma]

Well, you're half right. Keeping your fingers crossed is not a sound basis for future success.

[jimf671]

.... Keeping your fingers crossed is not a sound basis for future success.

Well, there's crossing your fingers and there's crossing your fingers.

In 1978, and again in 1983, folk were crossing their fingers about the single engine performance of the SK and 61.

Still crossed.

How much worse can it get?

[satsuma]

You may yet get to see the S61 in the SAR role again Jim if the 189 isn't ready on time.

[jimf671]

I don't think so.

I see two options for two very different levels of disaster.

189 late = 139 stand-in.

All goes into room 101 = 101.

[jn45672]

Hi all,

WINCH OPERATOR
Requirements
· one (1) year’s previous experience on a dedicated SAR unit as a Winch Operator on helicopters
· two hundred and fifty (250) hours operating experience in helicopters gained in an operational environment similar to the intended operation
· no criminal record, safe flying record and the right to reside and work in the UK
(Training may be given to the right candidates)

My question is: are you also require to have a medical background for this position if you already meet the requirments above?
eg, paramedic/emt registration certificates needed?

Information much appreciated,
Cheers!

[meanttobe]

My question is: are you also require to have a medical background for this position if you already meet the requirments above?
eg, paramedic/emt registration certificates needed?

This may be of help. It comes from the ITPD doc.
1762 1
2.3.3 The Contractor shall provide Winchmen with at least 3 month’s experience each in a dedicated military/civilian SAR unit.
2077 K
2.3.4 The Contractor shall ensure the continuing professional development of medically qualified rearcrew to maintain medical standards and currency iaw policy set by the clinical director.
2.3.2.1 The Contractor shall provide rearcrew trained to a minimum of BIEC standard (equivalent to the IHCD Emergency Medical Technician) and with at least one Paramedic qualified rearcrew on each shift.
2.3.3.1 The Contractor shall provide rearcrew trained to a minimum of BIEC standard (equivalent to the IHCD Emergency Medical Technician) and with at least one Paramedic qualified rearcrew on each shift.
.

[meanttobe]

You may yet get to see the S61 in the SAR role again Jim if the 189 isn't ready on time.


Rumour has it the Falklands SAR contract currently being bid may see the S61 T being put forward by more than one of the bidders.

[Ant T]

Does the Carson S61T have any European Civil Certification yet?

Rumour has it the Falklands SAR contract currently being bid may see the S61 T being put forward by more than one of the bidders.

[jn45672]

That's great,

Thanks a lot for the info..I will think about getting my IHCD tech course!!

[backtothebeat]

I didn't think you needed to be a paramedic / technician for winch operator ?

[jimf671]

I didn't think you needed to be a paramedic / technician for winch operator ?

WINCH OPERATOR-EBU00408
Requirements
· one (1) year’s previous experience on a dedicated SAR unit as a Winch Operator on helicopters
· two hundred and fifty (250) hours operating experience in helicopters gained in an operational
environment similar to the intended operation
· no criminal record, safe flying record and the right to reside and work in the UK

[[email protected]]

One would hope that the experience levels of those who are taken on will considerably exceed those minimum levels or target zero isn't going to last very long.

[jimf671]

One would hope that the experience levels of those who are taken on will considerably exceed those minimum levels or target zero isn't going to last very long.

Do you think the salary structures support that outcome?

[[email protected]]

Quality doesn't come cheaply and cutting costs in this area might be a false economy.

[HarryMonk]

Anyone any ideas how far Bristow are down the recruitment process for WINCHMAN, winch op?

[karabiner]

Lots of guys have applied and heard absolutely nothing since application. Others I hear have been told services not required. Good question Harry, anyone shed light on this?

[[email protected]]

The interview/selection process for the military people on managed transition hasn't finished yet so I would think that if you haven't already received a 'no thanks' then you are still in with a shout.

[jimf671]

Just out of the Inverness Bristow UK SAR Engagement Event.

Many of my questions were answered, either in the presentations or the discussions that followed. There were a couple of unexpected twists. Ongoing work on technical and regulatory aspects of SAR flying sounds positive and I hope that everyone involved in that gives it their best.

Aircraft role equipment spec is due to move forward even from the where the GAP SAR aircraft is now. This is impressive.

There is little doubt that Bristow have been listening. More channels of communication have been opened today and that can only be good.

They remain exposed on a couple of details but April 2015 is still some way off. A limited amount was said about the risks associated with the 189 certification programme. I expect that prototype format, SAR flying systems and de-icing test time will pile on the pressure but I already know there is a Plan B.

The matter of remote refuelling sites is also still being worked on. Lochaber is a critical location since, being an area of poor aeronautical conditions, no aeronautical infrastructure exists there. However, Highland fuel agents have an outstanding ability to get lots of flammable smelly stuff to strange places, and gas turbines are 'omniverous', so there is plenty of scope for solution.


One of the really positive aspects of today's event is that the Bristow Director and representatives from Weber Shandwick, MCA and DfT all got snowed on. :E Failte gu Gaidhealtachd!

[Clever Richard]

Crab,

How is your application doing? :ok:

[ANGAF]

Silence from Crab? What's the story?

[anotherpruner]

I did expect this but still disappointed. One day hopefully 😔 -

"We have received your application for the position of WINCHMAN-EBU00409. After careful consideration, we regret to inform you that you have not been selected for this position.

We will retain your candidate profile in our database and will inform you of job openings that match your profile if you selected this option. We also invite you to visit the Career Section on our Web site on a regular basis.

We thank you for your interest in Bristow Group Inc. and wish you all the best in your career.


Best regards,
Human Resources Department
Bristow Group Inc."

anotherpruner

[SeaKingDriver]

Does anyone have any updates on the managed transition? Or are we assuming no news is good news?!

[Thomas coupling]

Here in Bongo Bongo land it seems the Bristow sifting stops about now and the results are official as of end of this month. Then the Mnagaed Transition/path can commence in anger.........................

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

TC,


What a shame there were never any of those bunga bunga parties in bongo bongo land...the SAR Force HQ atrium would make a great venue...

[meanttobe]

EASA certifies the EC175 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/01/28/easa-certifies-the-ec175/)

How is the 189 doing??

[jimf671]

... ...

How is the 189 doing??


Good question.

All gone too quiet.

?

[heli1]

The SAR certification aircraft was seen at Yeovil on Wednesday receiving the mods for the EASA/CAA approval trials.

[Gene Genie]

This is going to be a busy little thread this week. But it's just a rumour...,

Good luck all who applied.

Gene

[Thomas coupling]

Commencing today I believe! I am going for a grand total of between 25 and 30 pilots who will be absorbed into the new system.....:ouch:

[SeaKingDriver]

Nothing heard yet... Anyone else?

[Gene Genie]

I understand that their attention has been diverted by HR issues abroad. There may be a short delay, talk amongst yourselves...,

Gene

[SeaKingDriver]

Cheers Genie. Are you in a position to define 'short delay'?

[Thomas coupling]

But that is NO excuse for a courtesy communication from Bristow to the MoD explaining the delay. There are a lot of people's lives on hold over this response.
I'll say it for those who are afraid to:
"Wake up Bristow and meet your responsibilities". Conversation costs nothing.:ugh:

[jimf671]

... ... I'll say it for those who are afraid to:
"Wake up Bristow and meet your responsibilities". Conversation costs nothing.:ugh:


Don't be too hard on HMS Bristow TC. It is clear to me after years of :ugh: that it is not the contractor that is the problem. The problem is their customer. When every word is under scrutiny, it is hard to fashion a conversation. Talking to a Coastguard contractor is like trying to negotiate with North Korea.

[llamaman]

jimf,

Really? Somehow it's the fault of the Coastguard that Bristow's HR process has been so protracted and un-communicative. The basing and crewing solution has always been a known factor; any delay in the recruitment process is only down to internal Bristow issues. These may be genuine of course but to palm the blame off onto the Coastguard is a cop-out.

[SeaKingDriver]

I feel I have to pipe up here. Bristow have maintained throughout that the process for Managed Transition would be a fair one. Last night I (and I can only presume everyone else still going through the process) received a phone call from an individual who is high up in the managerial chain of UK SAR. The individual apologised for the delay and informed me that the reason was due to making sure that EVERYONE was able to attend their interviews before offers were made.

I appreciated the personal phone call, which could just have easily have been a mass email. It also highlighted to me that Bristow are sticking to their guns, which despite the frustrating wait, I'm sure most people will appreciate.

[snaggletooth]

Front-Enders received a phone call, rear crew still enjoying a deafening silence. Not good. The lack of information and progress is causing some to seriously reconsider their options. :=

[Spanish Waltzer]

snaggletooth - welcome to the civilian world.... & when you say 'seriously reconsider their options' what exactly would those be??? If you were one of those still waiting for interview (through perhaps no fault of your own), would you want all the jobs to be given out? What difference is another week really going to make....:ok:

[snaggletooth]

when you say 'seriously reconsider their options' what exactly would those be???
Err, staying in the mob, transferring to another role when Mil SAR ends and continuing to take the Queen's very generous shilling – it's not rocket salad. Many of us do not need to dance to Bristow's tune, although I for one would love to work for them if the package is right. :ouch:

[meanttobe]

EASA certifies the AgustaWestland AW189 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/02/10/easa-certifies-the-agustawestland-aw189/)

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Last night I (and I can only presume everyone else still going through the process) received a phone call from an individual who is high up in the managerial chain of UK SAR. The individual apologised for the delay and informed me that the reason was due to making sure that EVERYONE was able to attend their interviews before offers were made.

I appreciated the personal phone call, which could just have easily have been a mass email. It also highlighted to me that Bristow are sticking to their guns, which despite the frustrating wait, I'm sure most people will appreciate.


That's absolutely fine, as long as you are confident that everyone received the same phone call on Friday night. You might be less content if that turned out not to be the case.

[SeaKingDriver]

Torque - good point, well made. I know several did, but obviously cannot comment on the masses.

[Thomas coupling]

I can. And they haven't!

[snaggletooth]

Rear crew job offers have been coming out today via phone.

[SeaKingDriver]

:D excellent news. Good luck to all!

[HarryMonk]

I believe rear crew offers are now on the street, confirmed by a few LinkedIn job changes this week....

Anybody know if there are any posts left for us civvies or has managed transition gobbled them all up at a snip? :ugh::ugh:

[Vie sans frontieres]

Bristow have stated that they would like a one third split at each flight between ex-Navy, ex-RAF and civvy so don't give up hope.

[jimf671]

Bristow have stated that they would like a one third split at each flight between ex-Navy, ex-RAF and civvy so don't give up hope.

Yes, that what I was told too.

So, for 10 bases, that's 3.33 bases worth of crew from each provenance. It's a very simplified model but even so it leads you to some interesting sums.

[Vie sans frontieres]

If that one third aspiration applies to rearcrew as well, it remains to be seen what background those civilian rearcrew come from. Ambulance service perhaps? Bristow appear not to have been frightened to offer positions to a range of military experience, from those with apparently no SAR pedigree to some of the most experienced SAR operators in the land. Therefore it can be assumed that places could remain for suitably qualified potential rearcrew with no helicopter experience.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Vie,

Im not so sure you can make that assumption. Bristow's requirement to fill front seats include captains and co-pilot positions. They also need to create a system that is sustainable. In other words, within the military transition, they will want to draw experienced SAR captains in their twilight years right through to younger, less experienced pilots to happily fill co-pilot positions with aspirations to work towards SAR command sometime in the future.

With rearcrew, whilst they will look for a range of age and experience to make the contract sustainable, I think the idea that they will happily employ guys with quote " no helicopter experience" unlikely....although of course not impossible.

Remember too the recruitment field for the 'civilian element' is a lot broader than just the UK...:ok:

ps.... "some of the most experienced SAR operators in the land"....did crab get a job then?!:E

[shetlander]

Makes you wonder what the long term plan for Bristow's is, with regards to SAR rear crew.

Once the transition is over and we are steady state, ie. 5 years time, where will the suitably qualified rear crew come from?!

Is ab-initio air crew training the option!?

Is employing ambulance techs the answer?

I think only time will tell, but we need to remember that this is a long term national contract and with personnel movements, promotions, sickness, retirement etc then there will always be a requirement for staff.

[Fareastdriver]

There's a fair nimber of civilian rear crew who have doing the job for the last thirty years.

[Vie sans frontieres]

But are they ex-Navy civilians or ex-RAF civilians? I think it's the original flying background that counts so flights don't become too naval or too RAF-like in their orientation.

[IFR Piglet]

I hear the leave entitlement for the new recruits to UK SAR is only 9.3 days.:ugh:

We currently get 28 days leave just so ya know.:ok:

I say currently with a feeling of slight unease!

[Sumpor Stylee]

What about the guys not being offered the same allowances as others before them on the transition team…. Or the lack of SAR allowances that have always been the case up until now and those TUPE'd from present terms will maintain but are suddenly not there anymore….. :suspect:

[Lala Steady]

Haven't heard of anyone from the mil being offered Lee - does that mean that TUPE will apply to those there even though it doesn't at any of the mil flights?
The managed transition seems to be an inconsistent process aimed at capturing an age group rather than an experienced one.

[snaggletooth]

The contract is a bit of a c*ck-up and very confusing. However, I have been assured by a man I trust very highly within Bristow that we do in fact get 28 days leave. Contracts may need to be reissued to reflect this. :ok:

[IFR Piglet]

The contract is a bit of a c*ck-up and very confusing. However, I have been assured by a man I trust very highly within Bristow that we do in fact get 28 days leave. Contracts may need to be reissued to reflect this.
So it would seem there has been a mistake made with the issue of these contracts. Not a good start for some of you in your civilian careers.

My advice:

Given it’s a “mistake” don’t sign the botched contract, request and await a new one.

When it arrives:

Take your time to understand every single word and their implications for you. Even when you think you understand every single word take it to a professional employment lawyer and have them look it over for you. It might cost a little in the short term but help you in the long term. A contract shouldn’t be confusing and therefore not signed until any confusion is cleared up with your prospective employer.

These links may be of some use to you in obtaining more advice.

https://www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights-helpline

http://www.acas.org.uk

Finally you are under no obligation to join but it should be worth your consideration to join a union. One is currently negotiating indirectly on your behalf right now.

Welcome to Civie SAR!! Your career long battle to maintain/improve Ts & Cs has already begun (before your foot is through the door….. what a shame). No doubt a concept that will go against the grain initially but you must overcome that discomfort very quickly or risk a shafting in this capital “shareholders rule” world.

Isn’t it amazing how inferior contracts can accidently by mistake with no one knowing slip into envelopes and find themselves in the hands of new recruits. Someone really must stop leaving banana skins about! :}

[satsuma]

It would be a bit below the belt if a mass influx of new recruits who don't know any better was used as an opportunity to change Ts & Cs for the worse. Is this what happens when contracts are won by massively undercutting the competition? Where else will we see expenditure slashed?

[kellyoldsmunt]

well, all the ground work was about to start, but the closure of Manston now puts the base elsewere.

[SARowl]

well, all the ground work was about to start, but the closure of Manston now puts the base elsewere.

How about Southend?

[Art of flight]

Southend? Tried to relocate the Essex Police ASU there a couple of years ago. Real problems with real estate and long term leases against actually trying to buy a plot to put a building/hangar on. One thing to look for in your contract is bank holidays, as they may be included in your rostered days off.

[OafOrfUxAche]

Why would closure of the airfield prevent a helicopter unit operating from the site?

[kellyoldsmunt]

because it wouldn't be feasible to have a helicopter base in the middle of a housing estate, which is what the current owners had in mind from day 1.
they did not own it when the base was announced. and as yet Bristows havnt acquired the land

[sonas]

Changing tack a little, How come ARCC are co-ordinating maritime taskings and not giving much info to Coasties? Mod holding on for the last few months, and just been a curious individual, what's going to happen to the ARCC when there are NO Mod assets other than a handful of Mrt?

[Vie sans frontieres]

Probably because they're the Centre that Co-ordinates Rescues by Aeronautical assets. Good question though.

[jeepys]

With regards to crewing both front and back civvies can be classed as civvies even if they are ex mil. Therefore getting civvie crews with experience should be no problem.

[sonas]

Thanks VSF, I walked right into that one. I'll go and sit in the corner:\

[Vie sans frontieres]

In that case jeepys, won't the desire to have a one third split at each flight be scuppered by the fact that all the staff are civvies?


Does anyone know the training syllabus for newly arrived aircrew? Bristow have stated that there will be a nine month training period for newly arrived pilots and approximately six months for rearcrew.

[[email protected]]

It seems likely that the ARCC will eventually go to the MOC (new centralised Coastguard centre near Southampton) and the military presence will be limited to the MCC bits (satellite monitoring). However, the CG don't have any great experience of coordinating aeronautical rescues (yes I know there are a couple of CG guys in the ARRC) so they will need some help from those that do - not sure anything is set in concrete yet.

[jimf671]

... they're the Centre that Co-ordinates Rescues by Aeronautical assets ...

... including satellites.

[jimf671]

New pilots out there now doing O&G and periodically dipping their toe in the SAR pond.

[jimf671]

... the CG don't have any great experience of coordinating aeronautical rescues ...

COASTguard - the clue is in the name really.

[[email protected]]

So why are they taking over UKSAR when so much of it is overland???

[shetlander]

I think it depends on location really. As up until Bristow came back into SAR the Coastguard had the full responsibility of scrambling and the ARCC used to go through the Coastguard for tastings.

It's the Coastguard that still pages the crews when on 45mins standby.

This is still the case on the South Coast.

The ARCC will eventually, sooner rather than later head to the National Maritme Operations Centre, near Southampton and be under Coastguard Control.

[jimf671]

ARCC became the tasking authority after Wednesday 31st March 2010.

(The report I wrote about my visit to ARCC on that day specifically notes that change.)

Some players may choose to dress it up some other way though.

[jimf671]

So why are they taking over UKSAR when so much of it is overland???

No definitive answer to that has escaped into the wild.

My understanding is that with the Coastguard, on behalf of the DfT, having been the sole existing purchaser of civilian SAR helicopter services for HM Gov, they were in a prime position to take the reigns. However, in the background, nobody else wanted it. :{ Not the Home Office, not Health, not Evironment, not Business, and certainly not our dear friends at the MoD.

The story goes (please correct me if you have better info) that when JHC was formed a decision was made by AVM Niven not to include SAR Force and effectively its fate was sealed. Soon after, war fighting in far off hot places, and hot and high places, became the important issue. SAR Force was the unwanted homeless stray. (Many here know a lot more about SK support and availability west of Suez during that period than I do.:8)

As the DfT eventually, laboriously, got a half-baked unified contract together for the four bases, and repeatedly stumbled over itself in efforts to quantify :ugh: and contract a completely civilian service, other forces were coming into play. The same war fighting that was helping to orphan SAR Force at the MoD was also promoting ITAR enforcement in the USA. This would have been a bit of a challenge to the existing DfT/MCA skill set and may be responsible for the lack of progress with CivSAR equipment specifications. Meanwhile, aircraft carriers were being planned. In the absence of orders for escort destroyers :E, it was obvious that the MoD was going to be paying for, em, eh, ... a Search And Rescue Helicopter capability. A Royal Navy Merlin helicopter checks out HMS Queen Elizabeth | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/9367688787/)

Somehow, the monstrous freak that was SARH25, was appropriately euthanased (HM Treasury already begging for an opportunity and it spectacularly arrived). Galvanized into action, the DfT came up with two half-decent contract processes in quick succession (a British public sector first?).

A year from now, the Main UK SAR Helicopter Service contract will be a week away and the first operational crews will have been training in-area for nearly four months. Their training in-area will have commenced during the same month as the ISAF withdrawal deadline which draws to a close a period of repatriation of UK military helicopters and crews, many of whom might prefer the occasional real job as an alternative to sim, x-box, air test and rugby.

At Strasbourg, the European Parliament continues to take the position that the existence of a Single Market makes the continued existence of Member State coastguard services unnecessary. The morphing of the HM Coastguard into UK Rescue, along with development of the appropriate range of additional skill sets, would make a certain amount of sense and provide the organisation with some kind of future regardless of the march of the EMSA empire. Whether that is a bearable outcome at the Southampton care home for ageing salts is anybody's guess.

(Was that OK Crab?)

[Vie sans frontieres]

Does anyone know the training syllabus for newly arrived aircrew? Bristow have stated that there will be a nine month training period for newly arrived pilots and approximately six months for rearcrew.New pilots out there now doing O&G and periodically dipping their toe in the SAR pond.I was thinking more of for those going through the Managed Transition. It is for them that time will be tightest. On a concurrently running thread, a load of experienced ex-military pilots bemoaned how paltry their conversions to type have been in civil aviation compared to what they experienced in the military. Therefore it is encouraging that Bristow have declared nine and six month conversions for pilots and rearcrew respectively. I am just curious about how and where those months will be spent. There will be an awful lot of people to convert in a relatively short space of time. I imagine the NVG package will take about a month or so but how do the rest of the training syllabuses break down?

[[email protected]]

Jim, it was meant as a rhetorical question but I think you have done a pretty good job there - possibly missing the expansionist desires of the Chief Coastguard in the early 2000s who wanted the same status as the US Coastguard.

[Evalu8ter]

The rumour re SAR and the formation of JHC that was doing the rounds was that the UKSARF Hierarchy wasn't really interested in the quasi-tactical aspects (D-SAR, CSAR, TRAP etc) that we're being trialled at the time and were keen to retreat to UK based SAR; this was not part of JHC's agenda so SARF was allowed to carry on its merry way. After all, no-one was going to chop it were they?

[[email protected]]

That's because it didn't take a rocket scientist to see that hovering over boats/cliffs/people in the water in a non-tactical environment didn't include most of the skill sets required for a behind-enemy-lines, tactical recovery.

SAR and CSAR/JPR are poles apart and most people in SAR knew that - it was only to try and please the 'if it ain't green, it ain't military' diehards that it was even suggested as a way to try and protect SAR.

In 18 months we will say farewell to what has been an outstanding and world-leading capability within the UK military - a sad and pointless loss permitted by the same people who allowed the Navy to lose its aircraft carriers:ugh:

[jimf671]

... wanted the same status as the US Coastguard.

Gimpies in Jayhawks?

No, probably the budget would be nice. ("This is all about cost you know.")


... SAR and CSAR/JPR are poles apart ...

Poles apart? Helicopters, rescue and medical in one package? Different corners of the same chess board maybe.

CSAR is still far too much of a void in the British ORBAT. With my Gunner hat on, a couple of days working with the USAF guys leaves you rather unimpressed with our efforts.


... an outstanding and world-leading capability within the UK military ...

Agreed.

Imagine what could have been achieved with S-92 and AW189.

[shetlander]

ARCC became the tasking authority after Wednesday 31st March 2010.

(The report I wrote about my visit to ARCC on that day specifically notes that change.)

Some players may choose to dress it up some other way though.


ARCC may have been the official tasking authority however they did not have any means to scramble the flight! The coastguard did!

[jimf671]

No show without punch.

[Art of flight]

UK CSAR Capabilities.

During a coffee break at the RAF Mountbatten survival course in 1986 it became apparent in conversation that the 2 Harrier pilots thought the entire AAC had the single role of picking them up from behind enemy lines. Something to do with the 'Army Co-operation' part of 1 Sqns title I guess...

[ANGAF]

"SAR and CSAR/JPR are poles apart and most people in SAR knew that. "

How you get there may differ, but once there, it is the same. Hoisting or landing for land pickups, coupled modes over water. The nomenclature is different, techniques may differ, and speed takes precedence, but helicopters hovering and hoisting are the same. A paramedic from a RN/RAF cab is little different from a PJ - if you ignore the tactical kit.
- Thou shall not worship a Golden Cab.

[Vie sans frontieres]

"SAR and CSAR/JPR are poles apart and most people in SAR knew that. "

How you get there may differ, but once there, it is the same. Hoisting or landing for land pickups, coupled modes over water. The nomenclature is different, techniques may differ, and speed takes precedence, but helicopters hovering and hoisting are the same. A paramedic from a RN/RAF cab is little different from a PJ - if you ignore the tactical kit.
- Thou shall not worship a Golden Cab.


It rhymes with rowlocks.

[MightyGem]

A paramedic from a RN/RAF cab is little different from a PJ
Hmm...I think not. PJs bring a little more to the party than some tactical kit. And I'm not denigrating RN/RAF SAR rear crew. :ok:

[jimf671]

Hmm...I think not. PJs bring a little more to the party than some tactical kit. ...

Maybe just a bit.

A British winchweight operates in some awful conditions as a matter of routine and that helps shift the balance in their favour a little. However, for all the amazing work, and the gongs and parchments in several cases, I doubt whether any of those guys would themselves make this comparison.

How would the situation change here anyway? I dare say some waste of space at Abbey Wood has already done the sums and said why would we spend all that money on training a Sergeant.

[dingo9]

Shifting the thread back to Manston.
Developers say Manston Airport is a suitable site for housing development as uncertainty remains over its future (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/is-this-the-end-of-15441/)

Bristow have started building at Humber and Inverness. Any signs of work starting at Manston or are there genuine concerns from within Bristow it'll be sold to developers?

[satsuma]

If the Manston issue is giving Bristow a bit of a problem, why not move the base planned for Manston to Norwich and shift Humberside further north to Newcastle? That way the south of England isn't quite so SAR-base heavy, the 189 goes to a base where Bristow are already introducing it for Oil & Gas and north-east England/south-east Scotland won't feel the loss of Boulmer SAR quite so keenly.

There you are Bristow. I don't charge consultancy fees. :ok:

[Jerry Can]

Preferably before I sell my house near Boulmer ;)

[jimf671]

Pages 22 to 26 of Edition 34.
Mountain Rescue Committee of Scotland (http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/online-casbag/)

"UK Search And Rescue Helicopter Service - Spring 2014"


Any errors are probably due to the principals of open government not having trickled down to the agency concerned. Grateful for a PM if you find any.

[[email protected]]

It's a good article Jim, only one glaring error about ages of crews - there are plenty of us more mature types still doing milSAR past our 40s:ok: Mid 50s would be the normal limit unless extensions to service are granted.

Frankly, at 60 plus, do you still want to be dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to go flying in sh*te weather?

Oh, and there is no substitute for experience, regardless of how shiny and new (and capable) the aircraft.:ok:

[jimf671]

It's a good article Jim, only one glaring error about ages of crews - there are plenty of us more mature types still doing milSAR ...


People are often misled by the youthful good looks of we RAF types. Same thing happens in the Regiment.:yuk:

(A young lady on our team was heard to comment during one exercise "The pilot looks about 12.")



Oh, and there is no substitute for experience, regardless of how shiny and new (and capable) the aircraft.:ok:

That's certainly one of the points I was trying to get across.

[Fareastdriver]

Frankly, at 60 plus, do you still want to be dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to go flying in sh*te weather?

Load of wimps. I was doing typhoon evacuations when I was 68.

[[email protected]]

FED, your toilet habits are hardly a suitable subject for discussion here............oh that sort of evacuation:ok:

[heli1]

Aaa ah.....the old ones are the best. ( Jokes I mean )!

[Fareastdriver]

Crab, touché

[thorpey]

Have all rear crew positions now been filled?

[Norma Snockers]

Thorpey Have all rear crew positions now been filled?
I hope this question isn't related to FEDs evacuation quote ;)

I also understand they haven't, I certainly know of a couple of RAF SAR rearcrew that have been approached in the last couple of weeks, so they are still looking.

[[email protected]]

There is certainly one not-too-tall, cricket-playing, Yorkshireman who has been overlooked and really shouldn't have been - a top lad and excellent operator who outclasses many of those already taken on.

[NRDK]

Didn't know you played cricket:)

[[email protected]]

I couldn't possibly say which parts of that description might apply to me but I'm certainly not from Yorkshire old chap:ok:

[jimf671]

... not-too-tall, ...

189 material! :ok:


... cricket-playing, ...

Not suitable for Inverness. :E

[snaggletooth]

Seaweed is a macroscopic, multicellular, benthic marine algae.[1] The term includes some members of the red, brown and green algae. Seaweeds can also be classified by use (as food, medicine,[2] fertilizer, filtration, industrial, etc.).
:ok:

[davigal]

Do You guys have a clue if the Pilots positions have been filled up already??:ok::E

[HarryMonk]

I notice that Bristow has re advertised all UK SAR opportunities from Captain, through rear crew and into engineering as of 20/6... Maybe the figures didn't stack up first time around or are they waiting for mil guys trapped until 2017?

[jimf671]

I notice that Bristow has re advertised all UK SAR opportunities from Captain, through rear crew and into engineering as of 20/6... Maybe the figures didn't stack up first time around or are they waiting for mil guys trapped until 2017?

Theoretically, they should know by now who will be coming through Managed Transition. I suppose it is possible that offers have been rejected.


Why are they still looking for people. Surely they are over subscribed already!!!!

I am sure there are plenty who want it but what could be holding things back?

- MT offers rejected: trolley dolly wages not good enough for PA Scale seniors
- MT offers rejected: other (eg: promotions, Puma2, carrier jobs, ...)
- Everybody wants the same bases
- T&C causing lifestyle issues
- HR errors
- Problems caused by the Coastguard acting like they are a branch of MI5
- Yanks bouncing folks from ITAR screening


What have I missed?

[shetlander]

Problems caused by the Coastguard acting like they are a branch of MI5

Surely as the customer, having given their specification in the original tender, it has nothing to do with them.

If anything the blame is with Bristows, no AW189 yet, not enough crews, contractual penalties kicking in, delays with rollouts of bases.... Yada Yada Yada!

[misterbonkers]

Does anybody know what the SAR roster pattern is?

[jeepys]

"If anything the blame is with Bristows, no AW189 yet, not enough crews, contractual penalties kicking in, delays with rollouts of bases.... Yada Yada Yada!"

Here we go already. Blaming the operator before the contract has even started.
Not saying that Bristows will get it all right first time around but tell me a company who could pull off such a large undertaking without fault.

Surely the 189 issue is a AW problem? Understandably if they did not bid with it in the first place then they may not have been in this sticky position but remember they were not the only company to include the 189.

When are we going to get the "told you so" quotes? Can't be far away.

[jimf671]

Surely as the customer, having given their specification in the original tender, it has nothing to do with them.


You've not done the course then?

Do let us know if you come across a file at Sumburgh marked IPCRESS. :E



If anything the blame is with Bristows, ...

A wee bit late with their order perhaps but last I heard was that the FIPS certification was the only thing that would slide beyond commencement of service.

[The SAR RC]

misterbonkers


SAR rosters tend to be along the lines of 6 days at work (during which you'll do three 24 hour shifts) followed by a few days off, typically three or four. Bristow are planning on reverting to this pattern on their Scottish island bases and moving away from the commuting roster that staff have worked in recent years.

[Sumpor Stylee]

They're also planning on no real planning or roster structure anywhere else. Well of course that's what fits the 'we always did it that way' attitude.....:ugh:

[nowherespecial]

Slow responding Snakepit. Just wondering why everything I said is wrong? Please enlighten me as to why TUPE would not apply in this case?

[Vie sans frontieres]

Don't worry NWS. Sometimes the time lag between question and answer can be lengthy on pprune. I still haven't given up hope of someone answering the question I posed three months ago about the content of the 9 month pilot and six month rearcrew conversion courses. Can anyone put some meat on those bones? If the contract starts at Humberside and Inverness on April 1st 2015, those pilot conversion courses should be starting about now. 189 conversion course at the new training location at Inverness, S-92 course at the Stornoway training school I believe.

[Spuddytat38]

they need a good UK SAR HR Director ;-) to see them through that minefield......

[jimf671]

... those pilot conversion courses should be starting about now. 189 conversion course at the new training location at Inverness, ...


At least the roof is done. Could do with walls though. And maybe a helicopter would be useful. Or there's a sim in Milan.

[Flounder]

I still haven't given up hope of someone answering the question I posed three months ago about the content of the 9 month pilot and six month rearcrew conversion courses. Can anyone put some meat on those bones?

Why would anyone post the content of BHL pilot and rear crew training programmes on a forum such as PPRUNE? There's no freedom of information legislation dictating that questions asked on PPRUNE must be answered.

If you're on a course (and plenty of people are) then you'll be privy to the content. I imagine it would follow a fairly standard path from type rating through to completion of line training with SAR specific skills included as required. These courses are probably delivered by very well qualified personnel with a great deal of experience garnered in both Civilian and Military roles.

As for the AW189...I think AW are the only ones who could hazard a guess as to the readiness of the SAR variant.

[Vie sans frontieres]

If there's nothing to hide then there should be no issue revealing details of those programmes. I'd say it's in the public interest that a private company are as thorough in their training programmes as the publicly funded system they're replacing. 9 and 6 month conversion courses were what were published by Bristow. So, are they happening and what's the detail?

[nowherespecial]

There should be a 'like' button on a comment on this forum for us to show our approval.

[Flounder]

Why don't you email someone at BHL and ask if they can send you the details.

If it's in your interest and you feel you need to audit a company that has operated helicopters globally for more than 60 years then a direct approach would be best rather than expecting an employee of BHL to divulge training plans on an open forum.

There is such a thing as commercial sensitivity and whilst you may feel SAR belongs to the public it is not up to individuals to decide on the appropriateness of a company's training regimen.

[jimf671]

Why don't you email someone at BHL and ask if they can send you the details.

Rumour has it they are bit busy making it all come together. You could try the MCA but frankly pprune is usually ahead of that curve.



There is such a thing as commercial sensitivity and whilst you may feel SAR belongs to the public it is not up to individuals to decide on the appropriateness of a company's training regimen.

I am sure that you are right about commercial sensitivity and the appropriateness of the training regimen. However, I think we all feel SAR belongs to the public, not least due to the £1 600 497 465.00 price tag.

After a disgracefully failed first attempt at contract delivery, and a second run in a lower price bracket, the Treasury will undoubtedly be delighted with that price tag. Some of us might be a little nervous when that price tag is £399 502 535.00 less (19.9% less) than the lower end of the Estimated Value in the Contract Notice when delivering significantly more aircraft than originally would have been required.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Commercial Sensitivity sounds like a convenient catch all term that really means obfuscation and obscuration and there should be no place for these when we are talking about the delivery of a service to the public from Treasury funds. What is there to hide when most readers of this thread will have a pretty good idea that the content of a conversion course is likely to involve a groundschool, a general handling phase, a radar and SAR modes phase, an instrument flying phase, a role training phase, a night role training phase and an NVG phase? All I'd like to know is the relative proportions of each and how much time is being allocated to each. If a simple question like that results in a 'Commercial Sensitivity' tag being applied then that tells us more than you realise.

[nowherespecial]

FWIW, the rumour doing the rounds among management types is that the other competitors / consortiums have no idea how BHL could bid with new ac at that low price.

Likelihood we should all expect is that once up and running, BHL will run back to the Treasury saying they need a 9 figure sum to keep the contract going or they'll have to default.

But I suspect most of us had figured that one out already.

[Flounder]

I was thinking more of the individual rather than the corporate commercial sensitivity. An employee posting detailed training plans on PPRuNE may well be contravening a company code of ethics and that could result in suspension or termination of a contract.

I have been told by companies I worked for in the UK not to post contractual details on forums.

I think it's unfair you would expect anyone who works for BHL, or hopes to, to post this type of information when you have already outlined the stages of training involved.

[No Vote Joe]

I've heard that BHL are looking to recruit another 25 crews. What's all that about?

Did they not get enough bums on seats through the initial trawl or have they decided that they need more than 5 crews per location?

[[email protected]]

Or that the managed transition doesn't seem to be working that brilliantly as many of those who did PVR are now starting work while those that didn't, sit and hope the jobs will still be there in a year's time.

[jimf671]

New AW189 brochures, one SAR and one offshore, are on the AW website at the following address.
AW189 | AgustaWestland (http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw189)


SAR version.

Endurance - 5h 40 min
Range - 600nm
Vne - 169 knots
Cruising speed - 145 to 155 knots
MTOW - 18298 lb (8300kg)
HOGE - 8770 feet (2673m)

[shetlander]

Those AW189 brochures have been online for months now.

[HarryMonk]

Slightly crosswind, but there is a link for sure....

Bristow UK are still struggling it seems to locate bodies for the SAR UK contract as far a rear crew go, and now with whispers they will need more to cover a 24/7 SAR Oil & Gas commitment in FI starting in January.... Where will all these guys come from?

On the flip side though, the O&G Commitment could provide a great ab initio training platform

[Vie sans frontieres]

Their rearcrew recruitment strategy has baffled many. Beggars can't be choosers. No rearcrew = No SAR. Explain that to the DFT.

[shetlander]

On the flip side though, the O&G Commitment could provide a great ab initio training platform

This could be the future... Not entirely sure though, as some of the results of ab initio haven't been great.

I remember many moons ago when BHL took people straight off the street with no medical or winch experience and some of them are still in the service now having had very successful careers.

[jonnyloove]

Shetlander that's not quite the case,
The handful of civil trained winchmen from old BHL i.e when they had S-61's where already employed in ground roles and where selected to be trained up internally as they where known as Public Transport winchmen and eventually got the experience and opportunity to go full SAR but it took a number of years.

When CHC took over some off them struggled to pass at the time modular IHCD paramedics course.

There is no short cut to SAR and good quality medical skills rear crew wise.

[[email protected]]

There is no short cut to SAR and good quality medical skills rear crew wise. shame they don't seem to want to pay a decent wage for those skills:{

[jimf671]

... I wonder if there has been any contingency planning within Bristows for the contract with the UK Coastguard if the Scots vote to go their own way on the 18th. ...

Shared SAR resources are not a new concept.

And anyone expecting a parochial approach from Bristow is probably ignoring 60 years of the reverse.

Running a service for these islands from Dyce, Dalcross and Stornoway with some pen-pushers in Redhill and an EU/EEA border in the middle somewhere isn't rocket science. It might make the VAT returns more complicated. They have always been different legal jurisdictions anyway.

[shetlander]

shame they don't seem to want to pay a decent wage for those skills.

Stating the obvious but this might explain the unfilled vacancies.

[Spanish Waltzer]

From a regulatory and 'union' perspective are the UK SAR rearcrew and paramedics considered aircrew or passengers (like UK police observers and air ambulance paramedics)? I guess as they are still not licenced from an aviation perspective they do not require aviation medicals or to follow CAP371 flight time limitations?

[handysnaks]

SW I believe they are called SAR Technical Crew Members.

[The SAR RC]

An August revision of CAP 999 mandates less formalised medical requirements for SAR Technical Crew. However they will still be required to remain within their FTLs, despite the lack of licence.

[jimf671]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP999_UK_helicoper_SAR.pdf

[Spanish Waltzer]

Thanks Handy & SAR RC. So who mandates the FTL? The authority or the company? How can the authority mandate people who they do not licence? But if it is the company then what stops the company simply changing it when needs must? Or is all that covered in CAP999 too?

SW

Edited to add....Thanks for the link Jim.....!

[jimf671]

Thanks Handy & SAR RC. So who mandates the FTL? The authority or the company? How can the authority mandate people who they do not licence? But if it is the company then what stops the company simply changing it when needs must? Or is all that covered in CAP999 too?

Chapter 4 refers to Training and Checking for both pilots and rear (SAR Technical Crew). To me it reads like a company thing based on a mix of EASA regs (HHO) and Chapter 4 additional items.

[detgnome]

The company define the ftl within the operations manual. However, the ops manuals are approved by the authority....

[[email protected]]

Shetlander - they have to pay the pilots well because there is competition in the market, not least the N Sea.

The poor, unlicensed rearcrew have no real competition for their considerable skills and whilst organisations keep trying to create SAR rearcrew on the cheap through training up paramedics and the like who are already used to low wages - not much will change.

An extra £10-15K would have enabled many more military SAR rearcrew to take up posts without having to take a big lifestyle/wages hit.

Nice to see that the guys who do all the dangerous and demanding stuff in SAR get paid the least ......go figure:ugh:

[Northernstar]

Bristow always looked down on the rear crew. Many a Bristow trained pilot heard to exclaim "how could a crewman do that job" when referring to a position of management or organisational responsibility. Good to see values are still the same...:ugh:

[3D CAM]

Nice to see that the guys who do all the dangerous and demanding stuff in SAR get paid the least

Crab, nice to see that you recognise the underpaid Engineers.. oh.. sorry, my mistake.:rolleyes:
3D
;)

[Vie sans frontieres]

Bristow Managed Transition literature lists prospective engineer starting salaries to be one and a half times greater than those for rearcrew. So who are the underpaid ones?

[jonnyloove]

You will find in the coming years that Licensed aircraft engineers pay scales coming in line with pilots as the need for engineers will out strip demand for pilots. And you can see it happening now with Bristow and CHC looking at engineering apprenticeships.

[jimf671]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP999_UK_helicoper_SAR.pdf

Perhaps some of you chaps could have a look at 3.5 to 3.7, Performance Requirements. A comparison with 2.1 to 2.3 of Chapter 3 in the 2010 version reveals a few changes. I would be grateful for your opinions on how this may affect real world SAR flying 'between a rock and a hard place'.


If you are Navy then you may wish to be excused, since, of course, it's only hovering. :E


(I have the PDF of the May 2010 version if anyone needs it.)

[3D CAM]

Vsf
And not before time.:ok: My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek!
Things have obviously changed since I stopped spannering. Not that long ago!:hmm:

I am not taking anything away from the guys/gals in the back,(or front), they all would get medals if I had my way and have my utmost respect. And I told them that more than once!!!!
3D

[John Eacott]

Bristow Accepts first Sikorsky S-92® Helicopter For Long-Term Search and Rescue Services in UK (http://www.stockhouse.com/news/press-releases/2014/09/08/bristow-accepts-first-sikorsky-s-92®-helicopter-for-long-term-search-and-rescue)

COATESVILLE, Pa., Sept. 8, 2014 /PRNewswire/ -- Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. and Bristow Group Inc. today announced the acceptance of an S-92® helicopter by Bristow Helicopters Ltd. The helicopter, configured for search and rescue service, was accepted during a ceremony at the Sikorsky facility in Coatesville, Pennsylvania. Bristow Helicopters Ltd. is affiliated with Bristow Group Inc.
In March 2013, Bristow Helicopters Ltd. was awarded the contract to provide search and rescue helicopter service in the United Kingdom. The contract begins in April 2015 and runs until 2026. Bristow Helicopters Ltd.'s U.K. SAR (search and rescue) fleet of 22 aircraft will include 11 Sikorsky S-92 helicopters that are fitted with state-of-the-art technology.

Under the U.K. SAR contract, Bristow will operate from 10 bases across the U.K., strategically located near areas of high SAR incident rates. These include Inverness, Manston, Prestwick, Caernarfon, Humberside, Newquay, St Athan, Lee-on-Solent, Sumburgh and Stornoway.

"We are very excited to receive the first aircraft from Sikorsky for our U.K. search and rescue fleet," said Jonathan Baliff, President and Chief Executive Officer of Bristow Group Inc. "With more than 60 S-92 helicopters already in our inventory, we have come to know and appreciate the aircraft's mission capabilities."

"At Sikorsky, we stand behind our mission statement: 'We pioneer flight solutions that bring people home everywhere…every time,'" said Carey Bond, President, Sikorsky Commercial Systems & Services. "Bristow has a long history of search and rescue, and we are proud to support their efforts in the United Kingdom to bring people home. Sikorsky would also like to thank the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and Bristow as the operator for their choice of the S-92 helicopter for this very critical mission."

Sikorsky and Bristow have done business for more than 40 years. The Bristow fleet currently features more than 160 Sikorsky aircraft of various types.

Bristow Helicopters Ltd. has a long history of providing SAR services in the U.K., dating back to 1971, when Whirlwind helicopters were replaced by Bristow S-55 helicopters at RAF Manston, in Kent, and continuing with the operation of S-61 helicopters working at four SAR bases, Stornoway, Sumburgh, Lee-on-Solent and Portland, until 2007. In 2012 the company was awarded the U.K. Gap SAR contract for Northern Scotland and, working in partnership with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, currently operates four SAR helicopters from Sumburgh and Stornoway.

In total Bristow Helicopters Ltd. has flown more than 44,000 SAR operational hours in the U.K. and conducted over 15,000 SAR missions, during which more than 7,000 people have been rescued by the company's crews and helicopters.

Bristow has led the industry in introducing new aircraft types and technology to the civil market. The SAR equipment it has developed has become the industry standard, resulting in Bristow Helicopters Ltd. being recognized with the Queen's Award for Innovation for its technical developments.

This month also marks the 10-year anniversary of the initial delivery of the S-92 helicopter. The S-92 helicopter meets or exceeds oil and gas industry requirements. These helicopters perform search and rescue missions, head of state missions, as well as a variety of transportation missions for offshore oil and gas crews, utility and airline passengers. The U.S. Navy recently selected Sikorsky to build a fleet of Marine One helicopters, based on the FAA-certified S-92 aircraft, to transport the Office of the President beginning late in 2020. The S-92 fleet has accumulated more than 700,000 flight hours including 21,000 in SAR operations.

Sikorsky Aircraft Corp., based in Stratford, Connecticut, is a world leader in aircraft design, manufacture and service. United Technologies Corp., based in Hartford, Connecticut, provides high-technology products and support services to the aerospace and building systems industries.

[No Vote Joe]

"Bristow UK are still struggling it seems to locate bodies for the SAR UK contract as far a rear crew go, and now with whispers they will need more to cover a 24/7 SAR Oil & Gas commitment in FI starting in January.... Where will all these guys come from?"


Oh dear! All those guys who said it was their last FI Det on 78/1564 could now be on a Falklands roulement again. I wonder if there was anything in the employment contract smallprint about that!! :eek:

Is this what the extra 25 crews advertised for earlier in the year are for?

[Sevarg]

Go on, I'll have to ask, what are the rates for the rear seaters? Are there any increments, if so what?
Years back I heard that they were wanting the same as LAE's, I heard they dropped it when they found out what the LAE rates before any increments had been accrued were.
Are the BHL rates lower, more or the same as CHC and how do they compare with the starters rate in the mil?

[jimf671]

Starter rates? Those are of no great interest.

What is being offered to, for instance, Master Aircrew (OR-9) who have been writing the book (and making the film) for this professional sector and whose skills Managed Transition must have surely been designed to harvest just as much as those up the front.

[Sevarg]

Jim,
You forget that BHL/CHC rear crew have been 'writing the book and making the film' for the last 25+ years as well. It may not be exactly the same book but their way seems to work just as well. Just as the RN book seems to differ from the RAF one.
I'm not sure that the rear crew that already work for BHL would be over happy with an influx of exmil crew, that have been jumped up the pay scale, coming in and telling them 'how it is done'.
I joined BHL, more years ago than I want to remember, from the RAF and thought that knew all there was about operating helicopters (the brain washing worked). I quickly found out that there were other ways that were more efficient than the ones I knew. I learned and acted upon it.
I would not expect to walk into a job and command the top rate and I think that the exmil crews cannot expect too. So the question remains what are they being offered and is it out of line with the going rate for the civ SAR side?

[minigundiplomat]

Sevarg,

I've been in the commercial sector for 3 years now, but I have managed to pack a lot in and I pick things up pretty quick. During that time I have seen several projects (mil & civ) which have taken on former Wg Cdr level consultants and the rear crew issue has been shoved in at the last minute with whatever was left in the budget and when they have finished printing glossy brochures of aircraft and simulator buildings.

The commercial reality is that if you manage to recruit and retain sufficient rearcrew, however unfair the above may be, it is not an issue.

Likewise, you may have views on what the exmil rear crews expectations should be, based on your own extensive experience - all good, no argument.

However - there are a limited number of trained rear crew in the commercial sector, and many are choosing alternative careers. Some will keep flying and if paramedic trained and SAR experienced (an even smaller number) then they represent a very small audience for UK SAR.

There are also a number of countries around the world who value ex-mil UK rear crew (RAF or RN/RM) highly and will pay a commensurate rate. This reduces your pool even further.

So, I would point out the simple principle of supply and demand - if you're awash with suitably trained SAR rear crew then a left over budget is fine... but if the phone isn't ringing then you may have underestimated some of the above.

Good luck to you wherever work may take you mon ami.

[[email protected]]

Sevarg - you might find that the modern SAR world in the RAF is quite a lot different to when you left in terms of rearcrew professional knowledge and skills required (even if the displayed level of selflessness and bravery hasn't altered, whether civ, RN or RAF).

ISTR the starting rate for Bristow managed transition for rearcrew was circa £35K with an additional £7K for paramedic qual.

Compare that with a FS or MACr radop on £50-60K or a Lt Cdr Observer on £70K plus and you will quickly see why many very experienced and capable SAR rearcrew have had to stay in.

Also look at other contracts like the Shell Brunei and see how many senior operators have gone that way instead.

[jimf671]

You forget that BHL/CHC rear crew have been 'writing the book and making the film' for the last 25+ years as well. It may not be exactly the same book but their way seems to work just as well. ...


[Takes gloves off.]

From the list of current Bristow SAR contracts in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Netherland, Norway, Russia, Trinadad, and the UK, or any previous Bristow contract, through your wealth of experience and inside knowledge, please let us know which of those is CONTRACTED to operate in sub-arctic MOUNTAINOUS terrain in LOW LIGHT conditions?




... out of line with the going rate for the civ SAR side?

You mean LIMSAR of course.

[Sumpor Stylee]

Stornoway perhaps, but for Bristow that could only really be in the last 12 months. Most of the experience in those conditions has been when taskings became more onshore and mountain biased, but that was in the CHC days when the real S92 SAR procedures were developed through genuine experience and knowledge....:E

[jimf671]

Bristow is a very capable company and I want them to succeed. That will only happen if they get a really good grasp of reality.

None of the Bristow (or CHC) SAR operations has EVER been equivalent to the RN and RAF capability. Mountains and NVIS are the key issues.

Regarding mountains, Bristow and CHC at Stornoway have got away with it for a quarter of a century and done some splendid work because amongst those few who would venture that far north they happened to recruit a significant number of very talented individuals :cool: (and, amazingly, DNA seems to play a part). This was luck more than preparedness and planning on the part of Bristow and CHC. It certainly owed absolutely nothing to the DfT and MCA who for decades seem to have been hoping that mountains would simply go away, or turn into something they can understand, like a sand dune. :ugh: The Technical Requirement in the MAIN contract ITT changed all that. :ok:

Regarding NVIS, the current GAP aircraft at Stornoway have a full NVIS fit as required by the MAIN contract. It has been clear since last year that the full capability was going to take a considerable period of time to develop. Enquiries a couple of weeks ago revealed that nobody had seen or heard of a NVIS operation by R100 or been informed of the maturing of that capability. It will not surprise me if it is January 2015 before we see the first operational outing, hopefully allowing them to hit the ground running at Humberside and Inverness in April. Although somewhat impatient to see this capability mature, I respect the need to do it right rather than quick. :ok:

The challenge of bringing those two key capabilities to all of the necessary bases across the UK is immense and should not be under-estimated.

I do not know exactly what the contract says but the early stages of the contract process certainly required bidders to demonstrate how they would harvest the talents of those working with the military fleet. Managed Transition is the result. I would like it to be a successful result but there are doubts. :sad:


[Carefully replaces gloves.]

[Vie sans frontieres]

'Indicative' salary ranges given by Bristow were £80-100k for commanders and £30-45k for rearcrew (with the possibility of allowances to supplement these basic salaries). What has actually been offered to individuals is between them and the company. However, the differences between the two ranges is indeed 'indicative' of many things.

Enquiries a couple of weeks ago revealed that nobody had seen or heard of a NVIS operation by R100 or been informed of the maturing of that capability. It will not surprise me if it is January 2015 before we see the first operational outing

I wouldn't hold your breath.

[minigundiplomat]

and £30-45k for rearcrew (with the possibility of allowances to supplement these basic salaries).

Those figures lead me to suspect someone in HR looked up Paramedics in the NHS pay spines before going to lunch.....

[Vie sans frontieres]

Agreed. Rearcrew - despite your important role in the safety and success of this operation, you're less than half as important and worthy as the guy in the right hand seat who may well have less than half the SAR experience of you. Shocking.

[Fareastdriver]

and how much and how long did a civilian helicopter pilot have to pay to get his (ATPL).

[jimf671]

Those figures lead me to suspect someone in HR looked up Paramedics in the NHS pay spines before going to lunch.....

I expect more along the lines of trolley-dolly in a dry-suit.

[snaggletooth]

Any thoughts on what happens if the referendum goes down the 'Yes' route? Why would the DfT continue to pay for SAR cover in a foreign nation? But, the contract is signed and sealed n'est ce que pas? Can Westminster change it at this stage? Interesting times...

[FC80]

I expect more along the lines of trolley-dolly in a dry-suit.

There aren't many trolley dollies on that kind of wage.

To the poster inquiring about post-independence SAR... I suspect the answer is nobody has a f*#!ing clue.

;)

[Vie sans frontieres]

The chief trolley dolly that was deemed capable of being the rearcrew ops inspector probably is!

[sonas]

Hmmmm let me think about it, Shetland or Falklands?:rolleyes:

[jimf671]

I suspect that if the vote goes "yes", Bristow will struggle to find willing crews for relocation to Sumburgh, Stornoway, Inverness and Prestwick.

Who in their right mind would sell up down south and pay to relocate to iScotland with all the uncertainty of the SNP plan. Or lack of a plan it would seem.

It could be a different matter if the outer Hebrides and Shetland vote to remain with UK or for independence. Then watch the rush to move to Shetland :)

Worrying times.

Aye, a ten per cent increase in GDP per head is pretty frightening. :ugh:

[jimf671]

Any thoughts on what happens if the referendum goes down the 'Yes' route? Why would the DfT continue to pay for SAR cover in a foreign nation? But, the contract is signed and sealed n'est ce que pas? Can Westminster change it at this stage? Interesting times...


Those who think international collaboration is not an established and everyday feature of SAR probably shouldn't apply whatever the result.

[snaggletooth]

That's true Jim, international cooperation is a staple of SAR. But we don't often fund another nation's SAR operations as far as I know. Or will it come out of the foreign aid budget? :}

[FC80]

The SNP were relatively vocal in their criticism of transfer of all SAR to Bristow - SNP condemn search-and-rescue helicopter changes - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/snp-condemn-search-and-rescue-helicopter-changes-1-2857718)

Raises the question if they'd try to cover it via the planned Scottish defence force with assets they'd claim from the existing RAF/RN... whatever they might be? There is not a single word about it in the white paper.

Or would they just accept that Bristow are shaping up fairly well for the contract and leave it that way as a 'path of least resistance' type affair?

Like I said, I suspect nobody knows the answer and it hasn't been given a great deal of thought by the powers that be.

[satsuma]

Bristow are shaping up fairly well

Are they? Surely only time will tell. Bristow may be recruiting some capable individuals but teams are only as strong as their weakest links and capable individuals can only work with the tools they're given and within the parameters that are set for them. It remains to be seen whether the combination of these weak links, unproven tools and civil aviation parameters can be overcome to allow the capable and experienced new recruits to flourish in their new roles. If they're held back then the energy, ideas and enthusiasm they bring from the military will wither and die. And SAR as we know it will die with them.

[Flounder]

Then watch the rush to move to Shetland

What's wrong with Harris & Lewis?

[check]

I would have thought the contract was issued on behalf of UK LTD. If one part of that group leaves I would imagine that their part of the contract would be annulled, or the said party would be obliged to pay the share that covers Scottish waters and land mass.

Force Majeure and all that jazz!

[jeepys]

Satsuma,

not all the SAR crew are coming straight from the military as you know. There are still a large number of crew who are 'ex' sar whether it be RAF/RN/CG who are waiting to go back into what they have known for many years.

I agree that the undertaking for Bristow is huge and we all must expect that due to the size of this operation there will be issues that will come and go. Can you tell me of a company that could do this without hiccup, and please do not say the RAF. There is no way the crabs could bring a new machine into service until it's out of date!

[satsuma]

At least the military aren't looking to make a profit out of it to keep shareholders happy - shareholders who couldn't give two hoots about the quality of SAR service provided and are only interested in a return on their investment.

[jimf671]

Even if that were true, you will need that to try and cover some of your start up costs in Salmond's Utopia:ugh:


Wanting to be a normal West European country is not utopian.

And it's not his anyway. Independence is the most effective way of getting rid of the SNP.


The SNP were relatively vocal in their criticism of transfer of all SAR to Bristow - SNP condemn search-and-rescue helicopter changes - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/snp-condemn-search-and-rescue-helicopter-changes-1-2857718)

As far as I know, the Scottish Government Ministers for public safety matters have been kept informed about changes in aeronautical support for SAR but frankly who would bother telling the SNP defence spokesman. :E

[jeepys]

Satsuma,
SAR is becoming a business, get over it. No company will run SAR for nothing, would you?
Yes it,s a great shame that the RN/RAF are losing the service that they have spent decades perfecting. It has been a bloody good service thanks to them and I can understand people's disappointment in a private company taking over, but let's face it this is nothing out of the ordinary.
So rather than look for all the negatives and slate the company chosen to provide the service before they have started why not become one of the happy people and look to the future.
So many pruners mankin and moaning about hearsay makes me think they are all eastenders fans. Get a life.

[John Eacott]

Getting away from the deep politics, here's a neat juxtaposition of a CivSAR picking up Belgian soldiers from a live fire exercise in Scotland :ok:

Three Belgian soldiers rescued by helicopter from remote hill (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/292064-three-belgian-soldiers-rescued-by-helicopter-from-remote-south-uist-hill/)

Three Belgian soldiers have been airlifted to safety from a military excercise on a remote hill on a Scottish island.

The Belgian Army soldiers needed medical assistance after gruelling military operations in a rugged, remote hill in the Western Isles on Sunday morning.

They were part of NATO manoeuvres involving around 100 Belgian troops as well as British servicemen.

One man could not walk due to a dislocated ankle and another two were suffering from exhaustion, said a Stornoway Coastguard spokesperson.

They needed medical assistance during an exercise, believed to have been taking place overnight, through high heather and wet bog on the wild moorland and hills at Uisinish, on the east side of South Uist.

Rough terrain meant army vehicles could not get to the area which is inaccessible by road. There is also a lack of walking tracks to the isolated location.

Coastguards despatched the Stornoway rescue helicopter to the scene after the alarm was raised at 9.30am on Sunday.

They were airlifted to Stornoway airport where the three casualties were transferred to ambulance and driven to the accident and emergency department at the Western Isles Hospital in Stornoway.

The military exercises got underway on Thursday and will run until Wednesday.

Troops are involved with live-firing weapons at the South Uist missile range while a number of independent land exercises are planned over North Uist and South Uist.

http://files.stv.tv/imagebase/104/623x349/104401-coastguard-stations-facing-the-axe.jpg

[satsuma]

Jeepys

If you can guarantee me that every decision regarding kitting, training, manning, infrastructure and aircraft development is taken with the safety of the public in mind rather than having one eye on the the bottom line, then I'm with you.

[Sevarg]

SATS,
Don't tell me that the RAF/RN never looked at the bottom line. I would hope that looking for the best kit, which may well not be the most costly, should rule the day.
As for the RAF 'perfecting' SAR, well now we are OK all we need is some clapped out old seakings and we are there. You should bear in mind that nothing is prefect, just as nothing is ever good enough. Everything in life evolves and hopefully for the better.

[satsuma]

When they do look at the bottom line it's to stay within an allocated budget, not to maximise directors' bonuses and to appease shareholders and private equity investors who wouldn't know a SAR helicopter if it landed in their back garden and care not a jot about the quality of service being provided.

[Sevarg]

And when did the Mod stay within an allocated budget? If it did we might just have a defence force commensurate with being the 4th largest defence budget.

[tucumseh]

And when did the Mod stay within an allocated budget?

131 projects. Within "allocated budget" on 130.

£25k over "budget" on the other one, which just happened to be RAF SAR related. But it saved £13M in support costs while improving availability, reliability and maintainability. They even gave me a commendation.

Time, Cost and Performance is easy if you're trained properly.

The trouble is, it raises the bar of expectation, which senior staffs and politicians simply won't tolerate. Ironic. A commendation on the only project I went over budget on. And severe bollockings for the rest. Your answer is in there somewhere and it involves getting rid of a raft of VSOs!

:ok:

[jeepys]

Satsuma,

it's called business.

May not be what you want to hear but that's the bottom line.
People are in business to make money, simples.
Will you work for nothing, no of course not.
Will you turn down a pay rise, no of course not.
Are Bristows a private company in business to earn money, yes of course.
How they go about that may not be to your liking just like paying you a whopping salary may not be to their liking.
The clock is not getting turned back. RAF/RN SAR is finished. Look to the future otherwise you will get left behind with all the old farts who cannot accept change.

[nowherespecial]

Satsuma,

Did MilSAR ever get unlimited training? If not, the reason was cost and cost alone. No government can afford to let people take $35m assets out and rag the life out of them for a year and have to replace them because they flew 20 hours a day, every day.

Of course there has to be profit in it, it's a business. A good business keeps it's eye on the bottom line at all times.

Can you give examples of things you are worried BHL will not pay for in the future that Auntie Liz does? How many hours flying are included on the aircraft? How much for role equipment etc?

If you can give examples of specific things that BHL won't do, all the doubters, of which I am clearly one, will sit down and listen. Until then it's just a moan about something which hasn't even happened yet....

[nowherespecial]

And to be clear, CHC is the PE backed operator, not BHL.

First Reserve (and soon CD&R) know exactly what a helicopter is. I met 2x FR PE people on a course in London last year. Both were American ex M&A Bankers, one CS and one BoAML (stop me if this gets technical) and they knew a lot about helicopters and the industry.

The business is about significantly more than just flying. If you can;t see that I seriously suggest you spend time with friends in the operating companies outside of the cockpit. You;ll be stunned.

When did it become offensive in this country to make money? There are not many industries in the world where people with no degree (me) can invest huge sums of money in their careers (licenses) and then earn £70k+ a year for working 4 days a week in an industry where people are desperate to make it as safe as is humanly possible. Touring pilots make way more and pay less tax for working 183 days a year. And CHC just agreed to pay it's pilots 45% more over the next 5 years which is great for all as the others will likely have to follow suit to keep their people from defecting.

Smell the coffee! Life is good!

[jimf671]

You've had since 1971 to discuss whether private contractors are the right way forward for UK SAR helicopter services.

Now it is a done deal, you guys, and others elsewhere, are still banging on about yesterday's issues. :ugh:

Surely today's issues for those in the helicopter industry who want a good SAR service in the UK are using your specialist knowledge to assess the manner in which the contract is being implemented. :ok: Discussing that assessment in forums like this and passing that assessment to your elected representative seem to me to be useful and valid.


- Was £1.6bn a credible bid?

- Why were Bristow 4 months behind the curve on the AW189 order?

- Have Bristow done enough to harvest the skills of current military rear-crew?

- Do the performance requirements of CAP 999 (Aug 2014) provide civil aviation flyers with the regulatory tools to provide a service that is fully equivalent to current military helicopter SAR?

- If AW189 is not ready, which rumour is correct for the 'Plan B': S-92 or AW139?

- Is the MCA ready for management of a contract where 70% or more of jobs are Land SAR which is outside their skill set?

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