UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

[satsuma]

Tomorrow is another day. A day of powerful engines, glass cockpits, double winches, computer mission systems, satellite comms, huge downwash, short servicing periods and a decent cab heater. :ok

And the risk of industrial action. Let's not pretend that UK SAR aircrew weren't less than a few days from strike action about 5 years ago.

[[email protected]]

Beyond 2017, we need to keep making noises about how the next generation of civilian SAR Technical Crew are trained. Should this be a licensed aviation trade? I think you'll find this has already been raised by a CAA ops inspector.

Jim - all the new kit in the world won't make for a good SAR service if the people aren't well trained and maintain high levels of competency rather than bare-bones currency.

You still don't get the fact that I do want it to be a success, but I want it to be a real success not a smoke and mirrors PR exercise to showcase the MCA and Bristow so they can sell their new SAR model across the world.

Zic, If I am the only thing civvy operators can think of to ask you about on a job interview, it really doesn't say much for them does it? If knowing me is detrimental to your career prospects then just don't tell them - it's no skin off my nose. There is a big fat file on my desk (my old 5000) that has pages of complimentary stuff about my contribution to flying training and SAR over the years, written by people I respect - perhaps if your future employers want to know the real crab@ they could stop believing what they read on here for starters.

I'm not tarnishing anyone else's reputation - you stand on your own 2 feet and if you are not brave enough to put your head above the parapet when you know something isn't right then that isn't my problem.

[Lingo Dan]

Apologies for going off-thread a little, but how did you lay hands on your 5000 series? The last entry in mine would have been in 1984 - but it would still be interesting to have a look!!

[[email protected]]

Dan, you probably need to talk to Air Command at High Wycombe or ask the question on the Mil forum - I asked for and was given mine as I left.

[jimf671]

... I want it to be a real success not a smoke and mirrors PR exercise to showcase the MCA and Bristow so they can sell their new SAR model across the world. ...



The world is watching. Not just this contract. People are watching NAWSARH and FI-SAR.

At NAWSARH there may be a few hiccups but the concept of buying your military new large modern SAR helicopters will be of interest and something of a contrast to the UK SAR Helicopter Service.

FI-SAR looks ready to stamp the AW189 situation with BRISTOW'S FAULT in large bold letters. There may have to be lots of smoke and mirriors in stock. :ugh:

[Hot_LZ]

If FISAR doesn't launch on time how can Bristow be blamed?! AAR have that contract...

[jimf671]

That's not where I am going with that.

If AW189 SAR for FI-SAR is another c0ck-up then it looks like it's all about AW.

If AW189 SAR for FI-SAR is spec complete and certified and on time, or even subject to only minor delays, then looks like it's all about Bristow.

So with two AW189 SAR at Newquay ready for service that will be rolled off a ramp at Mount Pleasant in a few weeks how do you think this looks so far? :rolleyes:

[Hot_LZ]

I get your angle now Jim 👍.

Very true, but I believe AAR aren't being particularly transparent with their preparations. From what I hear one of their machines won't be flying for a while after a little mishap.

LZ

[Hedski]

AAR aren't transparent about much at all, certainly not employee T's & C's....:=
Sad that most of the new pilots at least are straight out of various european militaries with little knowledge of what the norms would be regarding pay, sickness, pension, bonding, tax, employer/employee liability etc. American company bringing their terms to a european government contract. :suspect:

[inputshaft]

Hedski

That wouldn't surprise me. My gut feeling always told me that the marriage of one of the lowest paying British heavy helicopter companies and US big corporation cost cutting practices, would never mean a particularly happy lot for the employees.

Any specific examples? How does pay compare to, say, Bristow or CHC in the UK? I hope nobody going to the Falklands has been conned into thinking they could get a tax credit from there. FI Gov has never to my knowledge taxed MOD ops, so, while we in O&G a few years ago were able to return home with a healthy tax credit to offset our home taxes, the AAR//BIH guys won't be in the same boat.

So pay would really have to be at, at least, Aberdeen level to make it worthwhile. All academic, maybe, as beggars can hardly be choosers in today's medium/heavy employment market.

[Hot_LZ]

T&Cs are nowhere near Aberdeen....

[heli1]

Are T&Cs in line with BIH Falklands MoD support service though? Aren't BIH sub contractors for the SAR operation?

[Hedski]

Pay lower than Bristow/CHC/Bond topped up by allowances which can always be changed, company not able to clarify where tax would be paid if at all, minimal notice on their part to change terms, employee liable for costs if sick or missing flight from UK for whatever reason, 5 days full pay 5 half if sick then nothing, the list goes on. That last one is totally outwith european standards. Type rating bond for 3 years but no linear decrease monthly as would be the norm, employee liable for reimbursement if no longer employed regardless of reason (if you are no longer required do you still pay?).

I'm sure there's more but maybe someone else can chime in.

[Bucaneer Bill]

Thought some would appreciate this link:


http://fourfiveart.co.uk/gallery/current-work/
There is a SAR dinner on the 29th at which the artist will be present

[as365n4]

jimf671 (http://www.pprune.org/members/314179-jimf671)

If AW189 SAR for FI-SAR is another c0ck-up then it looks like it's all about AW.

If AW189 SAR for FI-SAR is spec complete and certified and on time, or even subject to only minor delays, then looks like it's all about Bristow.

So with two AW189 SAR at Newquay ready for service that will be rolled off a ramp at Mount Pleasant in a few weeks how do you think this looks so far? :rolleyes:


Is the Falklands SAR 189 to the exact same Spec as the UK SAR 189?
I somehow doubt it, otherwise they should have the same problems as Bristow seems to have with Agusta.
Therefore the Blame goes to Agusta alone for not providing a fully Equiped UK SAR 189 on Time.

[collectivethrust]

I believe they are the same spec, probably to keep things easy. Looking at the supplements list in the RFM there doesn't appear to be any new SAR kits.

I think the only real difference is what each company wants in the cabin.

Merry Christmas

[Spanish Waltzer]

Just an 'off thread' post to wish all the duty crews, engineers and support staff working over the festive period, whether SAR, or other emergency service, wherever you are in the world, a very happy Christmas and thank you for your continued professionalism and commitment to saving life.

SW

[[email protected]]

Indeed - probably quite busy given the awful weather.

Any SAR involvement in the horrendous flooding up North?

[Pozidrive]

Crab,


A quick google should find pictures of CG in action over Calderdale

[DunWinching]

Dan, you probably need to talk to Air Command at High Wycombe or ask the question on the Mil forum - I asked for and was given mine as I left.

Apart from the 5000, did you get to keep the Smoking Glove too?

[[email protected]]

Thanks for that dunwinching;) My wife still regales people with that tale.

I took the easier option and just gave up smoking for real:ok:

[DunWinching]

Glad to hear it. If you want sight of a truly impressive - possibly Intergalactic in scale - cock up / waste of money, try UK MFTS RW which should prevent any trained aircrew being available for SAR or indeed anything else. Luckily it's only twice as expensive as the present system.

[[email protected]]

Pozidrive - found it, but is that all the SAR action? - my wife looked at all the horrendous TV footage and said 'Where are all the helicopters?'

Dunwinching - yes I keep hearing stories about how Shawbury is being carved up again - not for the better it would seem!

[sargs]

DunWinching: should prevent any trained aircrew being available for SAR

Regurgitating the same old rubbish. MFTS is planning to train what the customer asks for, so if there is no requirement for SAR aircrew then they won't be trained. However, the RN require winching skills as a secondary role for their aircrew so appropriate training will be provided - for them, at least.

It's only twice as expensive as the present system

I'd be happy to debate that, but the trouble is that we'd have to know how much the present system costs and we don't, do we? That's part of the problem that led to MFTS - the MOD simply has no idea how much it costs to train a RW student. Still, never let a good rumour get in the way of facts...

[gsa]

my wife looked at all the horrendous TV footage and said 'Where are all the helicopters?'

Without stirring it I thought the same thing, I remember the pictures of the Sea Kings queueing up at Boscastle and Cockermouth a few years ago where a disabled friend of mine got picked out of his top window by Sea King.

So could the new service put a load of airframes in the same place at the same time if needed? or is the 92 just overly big to be in the hover over towns? Saying that a 92 trundled up Wensleydale low last night after dark last night.

[The SAR RC]

The S92 would have to hover very, very high over an urban area to avoid its downwash doing more harm than good. With the delicacy of the situation eg little old ladies in RIBs, poor old Joe Public really doesn't need his day spoiled further by a localised hurricane adding to his woes. It would have to be situation critical to warrant an S92.

[Pozidrive]

"Where are all the helicopters?..."


Looking at the press reports there was no shortage of teams with boats, and apparently nobody who couldn't be reached from the existing roads. So why use expensive helicopters if its all under control at ground level?


At Boscastle, for example, there was no road access, people were trapped on the upper floors of buildings that were collapsing - a very different situation.

[[email protected]]

At Boscastle, for example, there was no road access, people were trapped on the upper floors of buildings that were collapsing - a very different situation. No, they were on the roof of a building that wasn't collapsing and would have been quite safe inside - the Fire and Rescue team led them to the roof. The only road issue was the bridge right in the middle of the village. To quote Max Boyce 'I know cos I was there':)

Look at the Gloucester floods to see how many were rescued in situations that boats were wholly unsuitable for - fast flowing water inland is very dangerous.

However, it may be that in recent years, the emergency services have changed the way they approach flooding and personnel recovery, clearly they try to get people out earlier than they did.

A cynic might argue that if they are not tasked by the MCA (maintaining priority for the coastal areas) then it is no wonder we haven't seen any CG helos in the flooded areas.

[llamaman]

A cynic might argue that if they are not tasked by the MCA (maintaining priority for the coastal areas) then it is no wonder we haven't seen any CG helos in the flooded areas.

Total nonsense.

Tasking SAR helicopters, regardless of their livery, remains the responsibility of the RAF ARCC (for now) and any genuine requests for assistance will no doubt be treated in the same way they always have been. Prestwick, Caernarfon and Humberside have all been involved inland in recent flooding incidents in both Cumbria and Yorkshire.

It's more likely the case that the press don't get too excited unless there is something dramatic and large scale a la Boscastle.

Crab, the same old tune is getting a bit repetitive now. Even to those on your side of the fence.

[[email protected]]

It's more likely the case that the press don't get too excited unless there is something dramatic and large scale a la Boscastle. The present flooding is far, far worse and on a much larger scale than Boscastle and Gloucester and Cockermouth - yet only one small press report of a helicopter that might have winched someone from their house....

We had a process for constantly rebriefing Gold and Silver commanders about the capabilities of SAR helicopters and their availability but Regional Liaison officers are a thing of the past, as are the SARLOs that we would send out to directly interface with Gold command.

Do the MCA have such a structure in place now??????? And I mean using people who actually understand helicopters.

If no-one knows there are helos available then no-one will ask for them.

Bristow have done liaison work with the MRTs and RNLI units near their bases but how far inland has that work progressed?

Sorry if you are bored with the tune but until the new service is as capable as the old then you might well have to keep listening to it.

[llamaman]

Crab,

Regional Liaison Officers are still alive and well. I refer you to my comment re. Prestwick, Caernarfon and Humberside. The fact that there is little press footage doesn't mean some good work hasn't been happening! The fact that quite a bit has been going on in the dark has probably contributed to the lack of footage.

Obviously the flooding is widespread but the emergency services have had plenty of experience in the last few years and you could argue that they have a greater understanding of what a helicopter can (and can't) offer. You don't always need a hammer to crack a nut.

I guarantee that if a large scale helicopter evacuation had been necessary in the past few days and it had occurred in daylight that there would be plenty of footage of SAR helicopters.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion about the standard of the new service but please don't demean yourself by suggesting that SAR helicopters have not responded to flooding incidents because the MCA wants to prioritise coastal coverage. That is total b*llocks but could well be taken as truth by those less informed/press trolls.

[Bucaneer Bill]

Perhaps MCA need to invest in a media ops team - or perhaps they should just carry on the good work and spend our money wisely and not bother the busy reporters.

Here is a link that may delight - some. 🦀

Changing of the Guard | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/Changing-of-the-Guard)

[[email protected]]

Llamaman - so where are the press releases, the statements of rescues and assistance given? Surely the MCA are not shy about their new service?

Is what used to be called military assistance to the civil community part of the new SAR service?

Good to see the Chinook helping out taking equipment in to the flood defences in York. Could a S-92 not have done that job?

[DunWinching]

Do the MCA cabs have a SACRU? The Chinook was 80 ft stropping

[alfred_the_great]

The present flooding is far, far worse and on a much larger scale than Boscastle and Gloucester and Cockermouth - yet only one small press report of a helicopter that might have winched someone from their house....

We had a process for constantly rebriefing Gold and Silver commanders about the capabilities of SAR helicopters and their availability but Regional Liaison officers are a thing of the past, as are the SARLOs that we would send out to directly interface with Gold command.

Do the MCA have such a structure in place now??????? And I mean using people who actually understand helicopters.

If no-one knows there are helos available then no-one will ask for them.

Bristow have done liaison work with the MRTs and RNLI units near their bases but how far inland has that work progressed?

Sorry if you are bored with the tune but until the new service is as capable as the old then you might well have to keep listening to it.


Perhaps they heard that if they wanted helicopters, they'd have to deal with you, and thought better of it?

[The SAR RC]

No, MCA S92s do not have a cargo hook.

[jimf671]

There was a statement about having an underslung load capability in a MCA-Bristow FAQ in 2014.

"Q. Will the new aircraft have an underslung capability?
A. Yes. All of our aircraft are capable of carrying underslung loads but will not carry the necessary hook at all times. This capability would be used on an ad hoc basis and after consultation with the MCA and CAA."

While that may look llike a good idea, what also looks like a good idea is that SAR guys stick to SAR and SH guys who are doing underslung for their day job do that when needed.

[DunWinching]

Day job etc granted, but SAR crews are generally rather good at USL serials as accurate hover / response to patter etc tend to be useful most trips. But if the hook is not normally fitted, continuity of practice must be difficult.

[lowfat]

be to differ.. UK sar s92s do have cargo hooks.... at least 1 at each base...

[[email protected]]

In that case, no different to what we had in milsar since the SACRUs were removed for weight saving and only fitted when required - not sure if there is the same USL currency tick required for Bristow crews as there was for milsar.

Still, Boscastle - SAR helos of every colour, Gloucester - yellow helos (at least 2) Cockermouth - yellow helos, Yorkshire 2015..............................

alfred the great - as many have said here, I don't do that job any more so that really shouldn't be an issue should it? I am one person with an opinion but an awful lot of people seem rather afraid of that.................

[P3 Bellows]

I am one person with an opinion but an awful lot of people seem rather afraid of that.................

I think you are getting a bit carried away with your "powers" there.

You are a topic of conversation amongst crews it has to be said but I won't repeat exactly what I've heard but it is to do with bells. Not the whole bell you understand; just the end. :ok:

[jimf671]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I give you the "UK SAR 2013 privatisation ... new thread" quote of the year 2015.


... no different to what we had in milsar ...

:E


And the runner-up was:
...Not the whole bell you understand ...

[[email protected]]

How surprising - back to personal insults when there are no answers:ugh:

[P3 Bellows]

How surprising - back to personal insults when there are no answers

Do you really think anyone meaningful from MCA or Bristow is going to pop in here and answer your bitter questions? If you do then you are not as bright as you (sometimes) come across.

You have chipped and chipped away at the new service which remember, you did apply to join, and went silent for a few months while they sifted through the applications and now you are back with the same chip chip attitude.

I'm sure all those people you used to work with in the RAF are proud of you as you keep having a go at them in their new role as civvies.

If you look 90 left and 90 right perhaps you will see where those chips truly are.

[[email protected]]

P3 - I don't know where you get the idea that I am bitter, or that I have chips on my shoulders.

Yes, I applied for a job - quite natural as an experienced SAR QHI - and I didn't get selected; was I disappointed? yes, but only because I felt I could contribute considerably to the new service.

Do I hold a burning grudge against Bristow? No, in many ways they did me a favour by not letting me take the easy option of continuing in SAR until retirement. I know you won't believe it but I really enjoy what I am doing now - teaching skills and passing on the benefit of my experience was why I became a QHI in the first place.

As to criticising the new service - I am well aware that there are some top lads and lasses who work in it (I even trained some of them) but I wait for the day when what is claimed to be at least an equal SAR service to what we provided actually appears, without aircraft availability issues, fully meeting the contract, with everyone fully trained and competent (not just current) and with full night capability across the fleet.

I and many others worked very hard to maintain and improve the standards of flying ability, knowledge and capability in the military SAR service and I know there will be some within the new service trying to do the same.

[oldgrubber]

Subject change!

Just had my first sight of the new S92 over Helston and Culdrose this morning. Nice looking cab in flight but was surprised at the rotor noise compared to the trusty Seaking and even our Merlins. It was even noiser than the Dutch NH90s that were over here last month. I could understand if it was all 5 bladed heads against the S92 but the NH90 only has 4 also. I know the vibes etc have been discussed previously but just an observation from someone who has been around helicopters a very long time to his first view of the new cab.

cheers now

[jimf671]

Yes. Quite noisy, and yes, noise and vibration have had some discussion on here.

Four versus five has been the subject of fairly pointless discussion and rumour in several quarters. It's a modern powerful helicopter. It makes a noise. A solution that moves that amount of air without making a noise will not arrive any time soon. Maybe for our grandchildren.

[Fareastdriver]

Way back in 1966 when they were trialling the new Puma there was a lot of sucking of teeth about rotor noise and especially vibration. They tried everything and they were at the point of cutting metal for a five bladed rotor head when some burke dreamt up the barbeque plate.

The four bladed rotor plagued Pumas until the five bladed 225.

["Running in"]

Surely everyone can acknowledge that in the past, over many years in fact, military support to the civil power has been utilised. SAR aircraft haven't always been used for under slung loads in the past when military SAR had the watch, SH crews did their bit then just as they are now. Please don't make out that the use of SH in a crisis as we are experiencing now is suddenly new in a civil emergency because SAR is now no longer a military task!

[Bucaneer Bill]

Finmeccanica launches One Company | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/Finmeccanica-launches-One-Company)


Sent from my iPhone

[edwardspannerhands]

Buccaneer Bill : Perhaps MCA need to invest in a media ops team -


They already have a PR Department - but unless the "event" happens on the South Coast they aren't interested.

or perhaps they should just carry on the good work and spend our money wisely

They don't!!
Their Future Coastguard Project was a "jobs for the boys" exercise and introduced another level of "management". They have also replaced many experienced Coastal Rescue practitioners with displaced Ops Room Staff. Whilst they may be very good in their previous post - they will find life at the coal face a different ball game.Sadly it will be left to the volunteer Coastguard Rescue Officers to "carry" these inexperienced "managers" until they get the required experience to become competent.:ugh:

[jimf671]

... ... Their Future Coastguard Project was a "jobs for the boys" exercise ...

Future? :confused:

Hansard. 1925. The Lords considering a Bill for the transfer of the Coastguard from the Admiralty to the Board of Trade.

"COASTGUARD BILL
LORD ABERCONWAY
... ... Another point which, perhaps, the noble Viscount will explain is this: On what system will appointments be made to the force if this Bill passes? At present appointments, I believe, are confined to naval ratings—petty officers of the Navy. Under this Bill the President of the Board, of Trade could appoint anybody—a superannuated gardener or chauffeur, or anybody without special training. ..."

:ugh:

[jimf671]

Finmeccanica launches One Company | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/Finmeccanica-launches-One-Company) ...


Something short and snappy that everyone can pronounce perhaps? :ugh:

[Thrust Augmentation]

my wife looked at all the horrendous TV footage and said 'Where are all the helicopters?


I see the S-92 got a public airing on TV today (as did those on the end of the line).

[llamaman]

From Crab,

"Llamaman - so where are the press releases, the statements of rescues and assistance given? Surely the MCA are not shy about their new service?

Is what used to be called military assistance to the civil community part of the new SAR service?"

In my opinion the MCA press machine hasn't fully embraced the new aeronautical world, maybe that will come in time? Or maybe they can't afford to employ a full-time media comms team akin to the way the Navy and RAF did business.

In answer to your second question; the military isn't the service provider therefore how can 'new' civilian SAR provide military assistance to the civil community? That particular niche capability available on the back of military SAR has been lost. Questions to your MP as to what has filled the gap (don't hold your breath).

[ninja-lewis]

Perhaps it is as simple as the MCA press team has reduced manning over the festive period and their focus is on their primary task of alerting people to the dangers of the stormy weather (e.g. people on cliff paths/seaside watching the stormy conditions at sea) rather than tooting their own horn?

Inland rescues by Prestwick and Inverness(?) helicopters are certainly getting plenty of local press and social media coverage in Scotland at the moment where over the past 24 hours rivers levels have and continue to rise quickly.

On a practical level, has there been a significant requirement for rescues in England recently?

Many of the areas in Cumbria seem to have been hit 3 or 4 times now over the past month so those most likely to be immediate danger have long since been flooded out anyway.

Likewise it seemed to be mainly commercial areas that took brunt of the damage in Leeds while both Leeds and York are large urban areas that likely have more than enough council personnel, emergency services and others on hand to effect timely evacuations or carry out boat rescues in what appear relatively mild flood conditions (at least compared to some of the footage of rivers in spate washing away bridges elsewhere).

[jimf671]

This is where it's at.

https://twitter.com/mca_media
https://www.facebook.com/MCA/
re-type - httpCOLON//hmcoastguardDOTblogspotDOTco.uk/
https://www.youtube.com/user/officialCoastguard
Bristow News - bristowgroup.com (http://bristowgroup.com/bristow-news/)
https://twitter.com/Bristow_Group
https://twitter.com/sotondamo
https://twitter.com/l7stx
https://twitter.com/Coastie_JM
https://twitter.com/UKSARRescue936
https://twitter.com/lf92

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency

[Cows getting bigger]

As the curtain closes, a very emotional thank you to military SAR for everything you have done.

[Mr Whirly]

Hear hear. Heartfelt thanks to you all.

[[email protected]]

And good luck and safe flying to the boys and girls in the new SAR service in the New Year and beyond:ok:

[Bucaneer Bill]

The Final Duty

04/01/2016
After over 40 years of providing Search and Rescue' operations from RNAS Culdrose, the four duty crew of 771 Naval Air Squadron have completed their last 24 hour shift.

Over the years, personnel from 771 Naval Air Squadron have saved countless lives, whilst risking their own, in some of the most hazardous conditions imaginable.

It is estimated that they have carried out over 9000 rescues and saved over 15,000 lives since 1974.

With that in mind, 31st December 2015 their last full day of operation, it was business as usual for the four man crew - Commanding Officer Lt Cdr Richard Calhaem, Lt Cdr Andrew 'Tank' Murray, Lt Jonathan 'Stretch' Hounsome and WO Andy Penrose.
It has been the most rewarding and satisfying job I could ever have hoped to fulfil - I have been privileged to serve at 771
, Lt Cdr Andrew Murray RN
The experienced team have many flying hours between them; indeed three of them have carried out almost 400 rescues each.

With a cabinet full of honours and awards, the four individuals have taken part in some major rescues from the Spanish Trawler Presca Verdes Tres in 2008, Boscastle in 2004, FV Le Sillon in 2014 and the Panamera in 2013.

‘Search and Rescue’ will continue for the Royal Navy - it is essential to flying operations at sea - but from January 1st 2016, the baton of responsibility for the provision of UK civilian search and rescue was handed to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency contractor Bristow Helicopters, based at Newquay airport.

Before handing over to the MCA and Bristow, Commanding Officer of 771 Naval Air Squadron, Lieutenant Commander Dick Calhaem explained that the squadron would not be slowing down: “It will be business as usual for 771, right up until the moment we pass the baton on to the Bristow team at Newquay.

“The weather is not looking great, so let’s see what the next 24 hours bring!”

To ensure a smooth handover, 771 personnel have been liaising with the new Bristow Helicopter team at Newquay, many of whom have been based on 771 Squadron themselves.

Lieutenant Commander Calhaem said: “A lot of the new Bristow team are ex-771 so they are very familiar with the Cornish Coastline and should know the ropes well!”

WO Andy Penrose, the winchman on the final crew and one of the longest serving members of the squadron said: “When you get the call, you don’t really know what you are going to find at the scene.

“I have many memories of a whole host of jobs, some have extremely happy endings and some unfortunately do not.

“Each and every one has been unique in its own right. The ones which stick in your mind are the big jobs like Boscastle, but also those in the dead of night with massive sea states.

“Language has often been a problem too - once we got scrambled to a job where a man had got a fish hook stuck in his eye, but when we got to his fishing vessel, he had lost an arm!”

Andy added: “It has been the most rewarding and satisfying job I could ever have hoped to fulfil - I have been privileged to serve at 771 in every rank from Leading Hand to Warrant Officer.

“I am filled with sadness that my 771 days are all but finished, however, I have treasured memories of a job well done and have had some of the most challenging yet rewarding scenarios I could have ever have hoped to experience.

“I have every faith in my Bristow colleagues at Newquay, most of whom I know as previous 771 Squadron personnel.

“I look forward to my own personal challenge as I move onto my next unit as a Merlin Aircrewman and as a Merlin Sqn Warrant Officer.”

771's team of engineers have also been working hard as usual to ensure that the squadron's Sea King helicopters are ready to fly.

Petty Officer Martin Greenwood has been doing 12 hour watches every day since Christmas Day. He said: “We have been really busy, with engine changes and fixing avionic faults.

“This is the best squadron that I have ever worked on. The atmosphere is brilliant – everyone works together as a team.”

771 Naval Air Squadron has been ‘on call’ 24 hours a day, every day of the year since 1974, saving many lives in some of the most hazardous conditions imaginable, often putting their own lives at risk. Before 1974, the unit was based at RNAS Portland.

At 15 minutes notice by day and 45 minutes by night, the Squadron operated within a 200 nautical mile radius of Culdrose.

They have carried out over 200 rescues every year, ranging from plucking sailors from sinking ships, to airlifting casualties of road traffic accidents to hospital and assisting the police in carrying out aerial searches

29/12/2015
A busy year for RNAS Culdrose

MORE
24/12/2015
One in every 17 sailors and RM on duty over Christmas at hom
QUEEN ELIZABETH CLASS AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
FUTURE
An island nation needs a powerful navy.
Follow us...

TwitterFacebookGoogle+YouTube

[jimf671]

Bristow Humberside

October 2015

https://www.facebook.com/110692182287457/videos/984424644914202/?theater

[Bucaneer Bill]

MCA are on Twitter and Facebook, not to mention BBC news feeds.


Well done the Coastguard!

[TUPE]

Coastguard chopper grounded before 100mph storm | Shetland News (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/12160-coastguard-chopper-grounded-before-100mph-storm)

Coastguard chopper grounded before 100mph storm
19:25 Thursday, 04 February 2016 | Written by Hans J Marter


SHETLAND politicians have demanded a full and open investigation after it emerged the Sumburgh-based search and rescue helicopter was grounded for 24 hours last week due to crew shortages.

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) confirmed on Thursday that their Inverness-based chopper had to take responsibility for the Shetland area during the build up to last week's storms.

However the agency insisted that the islands had at no time been left without emergency cover.

The downtime took place from Thursday to Friday immediately prior to Storm Gertrude bringing winds in excess of 100mph to the isles.

Chairman of Shetland's community safety and resilience board, councillor Alastair Cooper, said he was 'gobsmacked' when informed by Shetland News.

"We depend on the coastguard helicopter for much around here; it is a highly utilised facility," he said.

"I am amazed that we had an outage for such a long period as they (Bristow Helicopters) must have been able to bring staff in to cover for such a situation.

"Last Friday was a particularly bad day, but this is when you need the helicopter.

"We knew that Friday was going to be a bad day; so there is no reason they shouldn't be able to bring in coverage on Thursday before the wind set in.

"I think it is something that needs to be further investigated and we need to ensure that there are systems in place that it doesn't happen again."

His views were echoed by Shetland MSP Tavish Scott who described the situation as "unacceptable".

"Inverness is an hour's flying time away. If there had been an incident in Unst requiring a helicopter it would have taken significantly longer to get there," he said.

"That would have had implications for coastguard volunteers, police and any other emergency service.

"I want to have the assurance that at the very least the MCA made the other emergency services aware of the fact that Sumburgh was unavailable."

However when asked, Shetland area commander chief inspector Lindsay Tulloch said he had not been informed.

In a statement the MCA said: "Search and rescue helicopter operations for Shetland were covered by our Inverness aircraft between Thursday and Friday due to short notice absence amongst the Shetland crew.

"At no time during this period was Shetland left without cover.

"The MCA for its part will be discussing the matter with Bristow to make sure that the impact of such absences in the future is similarly reduced."

Bristow Helicopters operates the search and rescue helicopters on behalf of the MCA.

[mbriscoe]

Posts: 2,067

As the curtain closes, a very emotional thank you to military SAR for everything you have done.


Part of RN SAR Prestwick's farewell tour (https://www.flickr.com/photos/doffcocker/albums/72157663392243191) of the Highlands last month.

[jimf671]

Tribute as Moray-based rescue centre prepares for closure. - Inside Moray - News (http://www.insidemoray.com/tribute-as-moray-based-rescue-centre-prepares-for-closure/)

"The switch was announced in March last year – now the transfer is under way, with the final closure of the Kinloss centre to be completed by the end of this month." :{


============

https://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/end-of-an-era-the-closure-of-the-the-aeronautical-rescue-co-ordination-centre-arcc/

[212man]

RAF club tribute:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/S92ctc/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/S92ctc/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg.html)

[airsound]

Was surprised to see a big yellow budgie (immaculately clean as far as I could see) over Bourton-on-the-Water late this afternoon, heading NW-ish.

Wonder what it was doing - but, whatever, a lovely surprise.

airsound

[kaitakbowler]

Was surprised to see a big yellow budgie (immaculately clean as far as I could see) over Bourton-on-the-Water late this afternoon, heading NW-ish.

Wonder what it was doing - but, whatever, a lovely surprise.

airsound
Attracted a lot of interest in Carterton as it went over, looked vsmart, repaint at BZN prior to display somewhere? RAFM?

PM

[P3 Bellows]

Was surprised to see a big yellow budgie (immaculately clean as far as I could see) over Bourton-on-the-Water late this afternoon, heading NW-ish.


Is it one of the machines that will be used at the now or soon to be reserected Sea King OCU?

I hear Prestwick is where they are going to be based. Something to do with a Falkland Islands contingency plan if AAR are not ready on time.

[jimf671]

202(R) Sqn?


FISAR contingency is a different issue.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

202(R) Sqn?


FISAR contingency is a different issue


202 (R) is simply the new name for SARTU. Prestwick OCU for potential Falklands faff seems the likely explanation.

[as365n4]

Hmm, according to the latest DfT Stats there is a massive Gap on the South Eastern Coast of England.
https://twitter.com/DfTstats/status/707506253015089152
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdB3XurghVbXEAEyE6W.png (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdB3XVbXEAEyE6W.png)
Shouldn't be Lydd have a better home at Southend Airport to cover this Area more effectively?

And interstingly there is a lot of Oil & Gas related work which actually should be covered by the all new "Jigsaw" Helicopter out of Aberdeen/Sumburgh.

[mmitch]

If Manston had remained active it would have been there. Thanet council did nothing to stop Manston closing then complained when SAR moved to Lydd.
mmitch.

[mbriscoe]

Farewell flypast by the Junglie SEAKINGs yesteerday.

The Sea King helicopters make their final flight over Bristol (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Sea-King-helicopters-make-final-flight-Bristol/story-28964460-detail/story.html)

[lowfat]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/search-and-rescue-helicopter-statistics-october-to-december-2015

More info than was ever released by the mod....

[jimf671]

... More info than was ever released by the mod....


Yes. I am quite impressed with this aspect of the service. It is a welcome contrast with the approach used during the earlier stages of evolution.

Some old patterns re-established. For instance, Inverness not doing the most jobs but doing the most time on task (and probably mileage) as happened at Lossie.

It will interesting to see what happens once everyone is on the same contract and the same spec. (Not to mention the contracted aircraft!)

[jimf671]

An interesting week.

Thursday afternoon and Friday morning:

- Last British SAR Sea King stands down (1564 Flt)

- ARCC Fareham flies solo



Those events do not occur in isolation. A few ripples reach out across the SAR world whose reflections we will be seeing for some time.

[jimf671]

The end of an era.

Some minutes ago, the ARCC function officially closed down at Kinloss.

Earlier this afternoon, the last British SAR Sea Kings were replace by the AW189s of AAR/BIH in the Falklands.

[minigundiplomat]

I think it's fair to say this thread has seen its share of negativity, so well done to BIH/AAR for setting up the SAR service in the Falklands so efficiently and on on time.

With an AW189 too; perhaps they can help Bristow's out....:D

[Same again]

If the Bristow SAR 189's had the same contract specs and equipment as the AAR 189's then I have no doubt that they would be in service too.

[Self loading bear]

If the Bristow SAR 189's had the same contract specs and equipment as the AAR 189's then I have no doubt that they would be in service too.

Do you mean the Falkland 189 have NO de-icing? Or is it still other problems with the UK 189's?

SLB

SLB

[Same again]

There is Limited Icing Protection and there is Full Icing Protection. You tell me.

[jimf671]

My understanding is that the Falklands aircraft have the LIPS deicing spec whereas the UK SAR aircraft were always intended to have the FIPS deicing spec.

I seem to remember that a Rotorheads contributor has already made a few statements about the power requirements and the difference between the two fits.

The chances of having FIPS ready for the UK contract start was always known to be slim. Dragging a bit now though.



SLB, the delays were never about ice protection. The potential for these systems to get fully developed and certified in winter 2014/15 was always slim and entering service with LIPS or with no ice protection may have been a fallback option for one or more bidders.

[jimf671]

If the Bristow SAR 189's had the same contract specs and equipment as the AAR 189's then I have no doubt that they would be in service too.


Do tell us what is substantially different with regard to say AFCS SAR Modes or Dual-Winch Power Management?

[Hot_LZ]

Bristow are not very happy with the SAR AFCS in the 189 as it's been doing some quite erratic things. They've taken the decision not to use it until it has been addressed. FIPS is quite a small issue in comparison.

I would imagine that the AAR machines are encountering the same but they've decided to go live anyway.

LZ

[Same again]

Do tell us what is substantially different with regard to say AFCS SAR Modes

Well I think that they are supposed to work correctly and they certainly aren't in the Bristow aircraft. Perhaps AAR have different AFCS? Or they are happy to start a contract with known faults? Do tell us.

[Self loading bear]

Jim,

Thanks for the explanation. So no FIPS for the Falkland 189's. If that is wise we will see in the near future as they are heading into autumn and winter.

If you say that the FIPS problems are not the reason for the delays for the UK 189's then there must be other differences between UK and Flkl outfitting of the 189's.

Can you inform us?

SLB

[as365n4]

Doesn't have Bristow Issues with the Operators Workstation and their stupid position in the A/C as well?
Like Roof mounted Displays where the Sliding Doors are, instead of having them beside the Bubble Windows.


And doesn't Bristow have stopped all 189 Operation and put them in Storage because of the very excellent Product Support from Agusta. :E

[jimf671]

Basically the AW189 was the wrong choice of aircraft. ...

Reasons?

- Modern powerful aircraft
- Right size and capability (AW139 already proved too small)
- Glass cockpit and NVG compatability
- Half a chance of being ready in time (unlike competitors)
- Government loved the idea that production of the SAR variant could be British

OK, some issues with the last one. But what else was there?

(BIH aircraft NOT British.)



Bristow have stopped using for oil and gas ...

Let's look at the oil price. What's happening there? Well, it's just over a third of what it was two years ago and not expected to recover any time soon. So what do you expect for new helicopter types introduced recently? Yes, that's right, nobody is desperate to keep them in the air. Looking back to 2004 when the S-92 and EC225 were introduced, the oil price was rising and kept rising and they'd pay for anything that could fly.

[jimf671]

Doesn't have Bristow Issues with the Operators Workstation and their stupid position in the A/C as well?
Like Roof mounted Displays where the Sliding Doors are, instead of having them beside the Bubble Windows.

It is certainly the case that there are substantial differences in rear cabin layout between these two operators. However, other role equipment is similar.



... very excellent Product Support from Agusta. :E

You're a funny guy as365n4.

[jimf671]

Let's look at two companies introducing AW189 SAR.

Company A
Nearly a couple of thousand employees. SAR at ten operational locations using up to 22 aircraft and planning for 11 of this type. SAR management have experience in the training sector or with fixed wing aircraft.

Company B
Nearly a couple of hundred employees. SAR at one operational location using two aircraft. SAR management have a 24-carat rotorcraft background including SAR.


Which company do you think is best placed to respond to a challenging procurement and development programme with a new type of SAR rotorcraft? (Especially if somebody has already shown them how not to do it.)

[jimf671]

Is this not all done and dusted? :bored:

No chance. :p

Planned implementation was not due to be complete until July 2017 but with a delayed AW189 deployment we are now looking at a further year before the contracted solution is implemented. That's if everything goes to plan.

So what has happened since the last few posts in April?

Well, sh1t loads of damned good SAR helicopter work for one thing. I put myself forward as one of many witnesses to that for both the Main UK SAR contract and GAP-North. Well done guys. :D

The really good bit is that when somebody needs an aircraft, there are 10 bases out there that each have at least one serviceable aircraft. (Usually 11 during the day.) Happy days are here again. :ok:

There are things that never appeared in the contract spec and that sort of thing can be a bit of a problem. For instance, the word DOG never appeared in the original tech matrix and doesn't appear in the final spec for the Main contract. :ugh: Regardless, everyone involved has got stuck in and barring tiny wrinkles in the training administration, it all works and search dogs are fine. :ok: I do not expect that is the last problem. :hmm: . . . :E:E:E:E

In a recent Bristow Group earnings publication, we learned something of the plan for the AW189. They have set aside $115 million for buying the remaining eight AW189 SAR required. (So the register is correct that only three of those completed and flown so far are actually owned by BHL.) Then they tell us when they expect that money will be required, in a programme starting about now and ending in early 2018.

OK, so you get your techie guys all over the aircraft, then when it's OK you pay for it, then your techies mess with it some more, then your aircrew are all over it like a bad rash, and several months later it enters service? So add 3 to 6 months onto the purchase programme to get the implementation programme?

Meanwhile, all manner of 189 rumours from mid-2015 continue, with head and feet added. Some folks who were sold the idea of a S-92 career are still getting their heads round the new reality. Half the Coasties and MR guys are thinking 'Change? No change there then?' and the other half are just 'WTF?'

..:cool:

[Lala Steady]

So the contract is still not being met???

I thought the 139s were supposed to be a temporary fix but I believe some who were 189 qualified have retrained on 139.

Meanwhile, what of the complaints about lack of performance vs range, FIPS being worse than useless in its reliability and vibration problems because the FIPS replaced a vibration absorber?

[jimf671]

Contract between DfT and Bristow? Bumps along the way but during the last 15 months hundreds of people are safe who might not otherwise have been.

Contract between Bristow and AgustaWestland? ... slough of despond.

Regarding performance and range, as I understand it, the dry weight of the long range tank was supposed to be 150kg but ended up over twice that and the drag from the side-by-side double winch and other SAR toys is more than expected.

Anybody know the story about the damper?

.

[Lala Steady]

Regarding performance and range, as I understand it, the dry weight of the long range tank was supposed to be 150kg but ended up over twice that and the drag from the side-by-side double winch and other SAR toys is more than expected. Why??? Basic maths it seems:ugh:

[jimf671]

Apparently, Russ Torbet of Bristow has announced at Farnborough that Lee-on-Solent will start as per the original plan in spring 2017, with the AW189. This will be the first AW189 base.

It will be followed by
- Prestwick (!!!)
- Lydd
- St Athans
- Inverness

So, start at the end and work back to the beginning.

Snippets in MCA tweets also.

[Bluenose 50]

Not rotary but thread related.

HM Coastguard are trialling a Jetsream 41 turboprop to provide support to their SAR helicopters. Not the first fixed wing aircraft to operate in HMCG colours but probably the first to operate with SAR as primary function.

I can't post the hyperlink as forum rules appear not to allow blogsp*t to be included. Any help would be appreciated.

For those interested, further details and a pic are available on HM Coastguard blogsp*t date 9 Sep 2016 - available through any good search engine.

[jimf671]

Eastern is a Bristow subsidiary. They
have been engaged in flights
between the major oil and gas
centres around the north sea and
also ferry flights in support of crew-
change helicopter flights. Since the
bottom has fallen out of that market,
this may well be an ideal time to go
looking for an aircraft of a certain
size in eastern England.

A small fleet of Cessna 400 are
operated by Reconnaissance
Ventures Ltd under the HM
Coastguard brand for MCA Aviation
as part of their pollution control
operations. Since 2010, we have been
told that the Cessnas are also one of
the options for SAR top cover. The
Jetstream appears to be an
experiment in expanding the role of
SAR top cover from its current low
base level. This is happening at the
same time as our friends in the Royal
Air Force are engaging with their
friends in the United States Navy to
prepare for the introduction of nine
Boeing P8 Poseidon maritime patrol
aircraft. As I write this, ex-Nimrod
aircrew in all corners of the Empire
are experiencing itchy feet in their
earth-bound roles.

So, it may be that in the north and
west, we may have to wait for old
friends to come and watch over us
from above (!) while in the south and
east the Jetstream will soon be out
there doing some part of that role.


"Constant Endeavour"

[cyclic]

Why would the P8 be involved in top cover for a privatised service? Would HMCG pay for the service?

[MightyGem]

Some action from Barrafundle Bay, South Wales last weekend. As far as we could make out, one of a party of kayakers had some sort of medical problem(the group had an empty kayak when they came past later). The lifeboat turned up and took them on board, and then the helo arrived about 15 mins later.

Down came the winchman, followed by a stretcher. He was obviously rather busy as the helo landed on Stackpole Head for about 20/25 minutes. They then went way out to sea for the pickup. Something to watch as we had lunch.

Any follow up would be appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awLo9bdHvu8&feature=youtu.be

[jimf671]

Why would the P8 be involved in top cover for a privatised service? Would HMCG pay for the service?

UK SRR still an obligation on the UK government.

[cyclic]

It is Jim but they have farmed it out to the private sector. Would seem strange to have a split service. If the helos require top cover then it would seem natural that the SAR provider makes provision. A Jetstream ain't going to cut it though as the S92 is only marginally slower!

[jimf671]

Search And Rescue is a team activity. For those who do not get it, here are details of an example.

In April 1995, a spanish fisherman onboard the Moraime, 200 miles west of Benbecula, developed a perforated ulcer and had to be evacuated by helicopter.

A Sikorsky S-61N operated by Bristow on behalf of HM Coastguard left its base in Stornoway to undertake this task at the limits of its radius of action. The four man crew were accompanied by a local doctor. The aircraft refuelled at Ballivanich on Benbecula before heading out to sea.

Top-cover was provided by a Nimrod of the Royal Air Force. Language difficulties caused problems, so a comms link was established with a language teacher from the Nicolson Institute, Stornoway's secondary school.

Attempts to put the winchman onboard in violent seas meant the aircraft had return to Ballivanich for more fuel.

Upon returning to the scene, the third attempt resulted in the winchman having to be rescued from the water himself. He was subsequently winched onboard the trawler and recovered the casualty to the helicopter. The casualty was then flown to the Western Isles Hospital for treatment.


HM Coastguard
ARCC
Bristow Helicopters Ltd
Doctor
Nimrod MPA from RAF Kinloss
Teacher from the Nicolson
Airport services at Ballivanich
Western Isles Hospital

Teamwork

Constant Endeavour

[detgnome]

On a slightly different note, great do in Manchester over the weekend....

[[email protected]]

That it was:ok: Head still a bit groggy:)

[jimf671]

AW189

CAA Register
G-MCGM - BHL (First aircraft. Milan-built. Others all Yeovil, so far.)
G-MCGN - BHL
G-MCGO - AW
G-MCGP - BHL
G-MCGR - AW
G-MCGS - BHL
G-MCGT - AW
Four other aircraft expected to be built. The current production status not known.

Bristow Group has put aside $115million for AW189 SAR in 4 tranches of 2 from June 2016 (in progress?) to March 2018.

The planned order of deployment has changed a couple of times and currently is expected to be as follows.

- Lee-on-Solent (fixed at April 2017, taking over from CHC)
- Prestwick
- Lydd
- St Athans
- Inverness

Aircraft will be turning up at Lee and Prestwick during the early part of 2017 for local training and early engagement with stakeholders. (Most of the 7000 or so local volunteers and part-timers engaged in SAR currently have no idea that people make helicopters that you can't stand up in! :rolleyes:)

ARCC

Positive things are being said about ARCC Fareham by both aircrew and mountain rescuers. :ok:

GAP SAR

This contract ends next year and thus Portland will close and Lee will get the AW189. Sumburgh and Stornoway change to the MAIN contract. Some tears, some smiles.

[Rho Tarbled]

Won't all these delays and all the extra training swapping types be costing Bristows a great deal of money?

Is any of that cost being passed on to the taxpayer?

Are there any contract penalties for not meeting the contract spec for over a year?

[sonas]

AW189

CAA Register
G-MCGM - BHL (First aircraft. Milan-built. Others all Yeovil, so far.)
G-MCGN - BHL
G-MCGO - AW
G-MCGP - BHL
G-MCGR - AW
G-MCGS - BHL
G-MCGT - AW
Four other aircraft expected to be built. The current production status not known.

Bristow Group has put aside $115million for AW189 SAR in 4 tranches of 2 from June 2016 (in progress?) to March 2018.

The planned order of deployment has changed a couple of times and currently is expected to be as follows.

- Lee-on-Solent (fixed at April 2017, taking over from CHC)
- Prestwick
- Lydd
- St Athans
- Inverness

Aircraft will be turning up at Lee and Prestwick during the early part of 2017 for local training and early engagement with stakeholders. (Most of the 7000 or so local volunteers and part-timers engaged in SAR currently have no idea that people make helicopters that you can't stand up in! :rolleyes:)

ARCC

Positive things are being said about ARCC Fareham by both aircrew and mountain rescuers. :ok:

GAP SAR

This contract ends next year and thus Portland will close and Lee will get the AW189. Sumburgh and Stornoway change to the MAIN contract. Some tears, some smiles.

Good to see some positives.

[jimf671]

Interesting first post RT. :rolleyes: Welcome to the dangerous world of posting on pprune. :E

Won't all these delays and all the extra training swapping types be costing Bristows a great deal of money?

Yes.


Is any of that cost being passed on to the taxpayer?

You might need to examine the relationship between HM Gov and Leonardo to get the full picture on that subject. Guess who wanted a British-built aircraft? Westland Affair Mk XIII? :ugh:


Are there any contract penalties for not meeting the contract spec for over a year?

The contract spec is met at Inverness and Prestwick since the S-92A meets the Lot 2 spec (for simplicity, though it is actually a Lot 3 contract). The problem is that at Lydd and St Athans you have aircraft that are too small to meet the Lot 2 spec. Penalties are expected to be applied.

Lydd and St Athans were to get early deployment of the AW189. Prestwick is now moved up the list and will be the first base after Lee-on-Solent to get the new aircraft. (Because it involves a change-over from the GAP-South contract with CHC, the Lee date is fixed.) Getting Lydd and St Athans changed would have brought penalties to a halt as early as possible as well as working-up AW189 SAR experience in a more benign environment. One might speculate that whoever has arranged for Prestwick to move up will pay a price for that change.

[tyne]

Re: military involvement in SAR.

It still happens informally.

There have been a couple of occasions in the past year where an RAF Sentry has helped a lifeboat out with comms.

IT seems they regularly monitor Ch16.

[jimf671]

So who's been flying an AW189 at St Athans yesterday? Transition aircrew? Lee-on-Solent aircrew? :cool:

[nowherespecial]

Rho,

In terms of if the cost is being passed on to the taxpayer, yes of course it is. The taxpayer is footing the bill for the whole shooting match, not just the type ratings. The wise SAR Team at BRS have no doubt costed this well, check the quarterly filing from last week, BRS claim they are doing very well indeed out of UK SAR. (Imagine how bad their results would be without it!)...

Jim raises an interesting perspective about HMG involvement in the ac types. With the withdrawal of the WAH64 and replacement with genuine Boeing AH64 in the future for the Army, AW/ Leonardo have effectively been significantly downsized in HMG Military procurement in the UK (Wildcat and derivatives and Merlin left). I'd expect HMG to throw them a bone somewhere in future ac purchasing requirements if they can in order to keep the factory open. Quite which ac need replacing with Leonardo products I have no idea.

[jimf671]

Bristow Group's latest numbers were released about 3 weeks ago and make interesting reading. These guys have seen big changes in the last 2 years and taken some big hits but they are not going broke. Several things are on a gentle slide that could have been a major avalanche if not controlled. There has clearly been careful attention to management of the leased fleet and the pressures caused by the 225 situation. The people at the sharp end will know that there has been some sharpening of pencils at both ends and writing on both sides of the paper. :rolleyes:

Six months ago they were telling of UK SAR being 11% of revenue in fin year 2016. That seems to be happening. The numbers are expected to rise about 12% in fin year 2017 though I don't see it presented as a percentage revenue figure this time. Though they are still very heavily reliant on oil and gas, UK SAR will be a big slice and not something they can be complacent about.

If I were Bristow, I'd be all over the DfT and Leonardo like an itchy rash, squeezing out every last available penny. Oh heavens, I can hear the scratching from here. :E

I think I mentioned Westland Affair Mk XIII previously. :ugh:

One thing that changes in the latest Bristow numbers is the schedule of money for buying 189s. One aircraft is shifted out to the end (3 a/c in March 2018). This makes perfect sense since that will be the 11th, training, aircraft for Inverness. September's money for 2 a/c now delays until December 2016. This too makes some sense since they were going to end up having paid for a lot of aircraft that would not be deployed for a long time. They will end up with 6 a/c shortly as they start the programme, whittled down to 4 then 2 then zero by the time they have done St Athans (?). They then pay for the last 3 aircraft as they get ready to roll out 189 at Inverness. But by that time they know how to do it. :ok:

[Rho Tarbled]

nowherespecial - this is what I can't make sense of - if a contract is awarded at a specified price based on specific aircraft and the contractor doesn't provide those aircraft; first there have to be penalty clauses for failing to deliver the spec on time and second, any extra cost in training and retraining has to be met by the contractor, not the taxpayer.

if there was sufficient fat in the contract to allow the contractor to spend all that extra money and still make a profit, then surely DfT was seen off and managed the whole competition process poorly?

I get that Leonardos might be liable for some of the costs since the aircraft was late into service but again, this is between contractor and sub-contractor isn't it?

[jimf671]

The government wanted to turn Westland (Leonardo at Yeovil) into a proper commercial helicopter manufacturer instead of a drain on the defence budget. To do that they applied some pressure so that a British-built aircraft (AW189 SAR) would be selected for use on this contract. This required Leonardo to step up big-style, since you often don't get away with this with a brand new type, and there was already a bit of a history from 2007 with its little brother the AW139 taking time to sort out for SAR.

Leonardo didn't step up. The aircraft is essentially a good one but the SAR role fit was a bit of a dog's breakfast. To make matters worse, Bristow didn't have a contract ready to sign with Leonardo at the time of contract award and took 4 months to sort that out. Then there are some questions about how technically able and commercially agile Bristow were in the management of their supplier, Leonardo.

It is Leonardo who are paying most or all of the big bills here. It's probably costing Bristow a bit. It's probably costing the DfT a bit. It is costing Leonardo a fortune.

In amongst this, somebody else comes along, gets another (smaller) government contract for using the AW189 for SAR, orders aircraft, has them built in ITALY, uses the Bristow situation as a big stick to beat Leonardo with, gets a slightly different SAR role fit, gets their aircrew sorted out, and from a standing start puts the first two AW189 SAR aircraft into service before Bristow (over seven thousand miles from home).

Overall, the government has tried to save a lame duck but ended up breaking its other leg as well.


Soap opera.

[Rho Tarbled]

This comedy with Leonardos seems to have been going on for many years and it always appears to be the customer (and the taxpayer) who suffers.

Didn't the RAF get stiffed with the Merlin because the order for the Navy was too small and haven't the Army now been double-stiffed with the Wildcat since again the Navy order was too small?

I have been told that Westlands were a drain on the taxpayers even back in the 80s and the MoDs whole procurement policy was skewed in favour of keeping them going.

[jimf671]

The truth is that the Westland story is repeated around the world wherever you have a significant helicopter manufacturer.

You just need to look at the American fiasco with the presidential helicopter replacement.


(NOTE. Yeovil is a traditionally Conservative parliamentary seat that is in danger of again falling to the LibDems.)

[TUPE]

Inverness-based Coastguard crews reach 500 missions Inverness-based Coastguard crews reach 500 missions - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37924573)

[jimf671]

Inverness-based Coastguard crews reach 500 missions Inverness-based Coastguard crews reach 500 missions - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37924573)

You can get more detail here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/search-and-rescue-helicopter-statistics

[jimf671]

A new species photographed in wild for perhaps the first time.

https://twitter.com/glendog74/status/794575815384174592

[TUPE]

Ground clearance?

[jimf671]

Yes. There is some.

Although the S-92 at first appears to have greater ground clearance than this, it does in fact have far too many expensive toys very very near the rocks. I wouldn't like to say which one wins the ground clearance competition without some careful measurement at a range of loads. :8

Ground clearance is a matter that I and many others have mentioned repeatedly over the last few years. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Unfortunately, manufacturers want their aircraft quite close to the ground for a number of reasons. Though SAR is a good reputational boost, their first thought is probably about how to get lots of rich fat barstewards up into the aircraft without bursting a blood vessel. :E

[jimf671]

Now here's a thought. :8

It will be summer 2018 before implementation is complete (AW189 operational at Inverness). The original programme, way back at the start of this, had a transition-out for Lot 2 (AW189 bases) starting at Inverness on 31 March 2023.

So the public part of original bid process for the current contract started in November 2011, award was March 2013, and commencement of service April 2015.

NRP10045 UK SAR Schedule 2.5 - Transition and Acceptance shows the following timetable for lot 2 bases.

Inverness - March 2023
Lydd - June 2023
StAthans - Sept 2023
Prestwick - Dec 2024 - oops!? :ugh:
Lee - March 2024

Is that a misprint for Prestwick? A bit more job security for the lads! :E

If the contract process goes as before it should go public in November 2019. The DfT hardly has time to draw breath after the AW189 is fully in service before it is time to think about a new contract. :rolleyes:

There is provision for an extension of up to two years.

NRP10045 UK SARH General Conditions of Contract, at section 2.2, reads as follows.

"The Department may extend the duration of this Contract for any period and for any combination
of Bases for up to a further twenty four (24) Months from any Expiry Date. The Department shall
exercise this option, for each Base, no later than six (6) Months prior to each Expiry Date."

My guess is that they will extend. If they extended Lot 2 by two years and Lot 1 by one year then they would have a continuous transition programme from 1st April 2025 to 1st April 2027.


Thoughts?


Rumours?


Do you think it might be a good idea to mention search dogs in the contract this time? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[jimf671]

Anyone know why they flew AW189 SAR G-MCGO to Chertsey and down the Thames as far as Dartford on Tuesday?



(G-MCGO is believed to doing work-up in prep for commencement of service at Lee-on-Solent in April along with G-MCGS.)

[Fareastdriver]

A quick jolly before lunch.

[[email protected]]

Training with Thames CG??

[jimf671]

Seen a few helicopters in hotel car parks at lunchtime over the years. Usually yellow. Must my eyes deceiving me, eh Crab? London airspace not 'off the radar' figuratively and literally though. But no, not a jolly.

[[email protected]]

Nothing wrong with doing some training and having lunch away from base. Just a bit awkward if you get called out just as food is being served though:)

[jimf671]

G-MCGS took a break from Lee-on-Solent work-up at the weekend to come and show Scottish Mountain Rescue the new era part 2. It made an impressive entrance at a not very rotorcraft-friendly Birnam.

It also visited Dalcross on Sunday where it was seen by more SMR and SCRO folks. I had a bit of hands-on geekery with its fancy toys.

Nice cab. Really looking forward to seeing what it can do at the back of a gnarly corrie on a stormy night.

[dingo9]

Any news on how the AW189 is getting on at Lee On Solent? Understand it came on line 1 Apr.

[jimf671]

Any news on how the AW189 is getting on at Lee On Solent? Understand it came on line 1 Apr.

It went out and did the job an hour after coming on shift.

Not heard any specifics but then I am not as plugged in to the maritime rumour mill as the rocky stuff.


What concerns most now is when are we going to see an aircraft up at Prestwick?


BHL have accepted GO, GR and GT in recent months and GU and GV are now on the register, though not seen in the wild.

[jimf671]

AW189 G-MCGT left Lee-on-Solent first thing this morning and arrived at Prestwick to start a two month work-up this afternoon.

GT and a second aircraft are due to commence service from Prestwick on the 1st July. This will release two S-92 (GG & GL) for service at Stornoway where they will replace aircraft with the Gap contract spec.

The Gap contract (2013-2017) ends on the 30th June and includes the permanent end of service at Portland.

[[email protected]]

Great effort by whichever flight rescued the missing surfer off Macrahanish:ok:

Would be interesting to know if it was a visual spot or FLIR.

I had a similar last light spot of a missing person in an inflatable dinghy with an electric motor in Cyprus back in the 80s but he hadn't been out for anything like as long as the chap on the surfboard.:ok:

[jimf671]

Mark One Eyeball by the look of it.


Interview with Captain shown in Telegraph online report. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/02/missing-surfer-rescued-clinging-board-coast-scotland-32-hours/)

[[email protected]]

Well done Andy and crew:ok:

[smudge07]

Well done all at Pretwick - nice one :ok:

[Bluenose 50]

Well done to the Prestwick crew.

Some appreciation should also be given to the Coastguard Officers at Belfast who developed the apparently successful search plan that placed the UK Coastguard SAR helicopter into an area in which the Mk I eyeball became effective.

Given the number of known unknowns and the possibility of an unknown unknown, the Coastguard Officers at Belfast, or whoever was search planning for them, deserve a pat on the back. They were either highly competent or blessed with good fortune - possibly both. Good result in any case.

Look forward to hearing the survivor's story.

[smudge07]

True Bluenose and the lifeboat crews and coastguard teams around the coast.

Nice to share in some happy news on pprune.

[John Eacott]

Well covered in the TV News on most channels here in Victoria: including the interview with Andy :ok:

[Thrust Augmentation]

Caught a glimpse of the AW189 over Fort William this afternoon, presumably training or recce of some sort?

I'll miss the S-92 when it goes, but the 189 looks to be a considerably more nimble machine that the flying box that is the S-92. The 189 sounds like the offspring of a Lynx & EC135 - much confusion & running to windows for a good look!

[jimf671]

Changing of the guard.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDqBCReXgAA9NMT.jpg:large

[TipCap]

Nice picture Jim

[jimf671]

Not seen any jobs. Maybe it was a playstation shift at PIK today. :E

S-92s off to Stornoway.

Sad times at Portland.

[bigglesbutler]

Nice picture :)

[jimf671]

Not seen any jobs. Maybe it was a playstation shift at PIK today. :E



Or maybe not.
https://twitter.com/ardrossan02/status/881457666257760256

[jimf671]

The full fleet is still not deployed on this contract and it is not yet clear when this will be complete. The scenario keeps changing.

A Bristow Group earnings forecast of a few days ago still shows money for the remaining four AW189s available only in September 2019 yet two of those aircraft were transferred to BHL on the register just a few days before that was published.

Yesterday, Golf Uniform landed at Lydd to join Golf Papa for a work-up period (6 wk is typical???) prior to taking over from the 139s.

So what does this do to the programme for St Athans and Inverness?

Has BHL financed these a/c in a different way?

Has Government levered this?

Anyone know who got the job at MCA Aviation prepping for UKSAR-Gen2?

======================================

New Info: Fri 23rd, Golf Papa returned to Lee-on-Solent to be replaced at Lydd by Golf Victor. So the two newly transferred (to BHL) aircraft appear to be doing work-up at Lydd.

[drugsdontwork]

The full fleet is still not deployed on this contract and it is not yet clear when this will be complete. The scenario keeps changing.

A Bristow Group earnings forecast of a few days ago still shows money for the remaining four AW189s available only in September 2019 yet two of those aircraft were transferred to BHL on the register just a few days before that was published.

Yesterday, Golf Uniform landed at Lydd to join Golf Papa for a work-up period (6 wk is typical???) prior to taking over from the 139s.

So what does this do to the programme for St Athans and Inverness?

Has BHL financed these a/c in a different way?

Has Government levered this?

Anyone know who got the job at MCA Aviation prepping for UKSAR-Gen2?

I don’t know the answers to your questions. I do know however that I feel I am providing a more effective service with Bristow than I did in mil SAR and I feel much, much safer doing it. Opinion my own. Sorry to those who bristle reading this.

[[email protected]]

No need for bristling - we (milSAR) would have been far more effective and safer with all the shiny new aircraft but were never given a chance - a big shame but we have moved on.

Just remember though that you are part of a money-making business now so let's hope the finances keep going.

[drugsdontwork]

No need for bristling - we (milSAR) would have been far more effective and safer with all the shiny new aircraft but were never given a chance - a big shame but we have moved on.

Just remember though that you are part of a money-making business now so let's hope the finances keep going.

What kind of a reply is that? Outside of the military it’s all commercial. And hell the military wasn’t immune, it was ultimately money that led to it being offloaded.

Pray tell, what selfless, non commercial, immune from financial risk branch of rotary aviation are you doing now?

[jimf671]

... ...

Pray tell, what selfless, non commercial, immune from financial risk branch of rotary aviation are you doing now?


Not expecting a full answer are you?

[jimf671]

I believe that we now have a world-class service of a calibre that even many developed nations can only dream of. Its equipment and focus is different from many other nations because of our latitude, seas, terrain and climate.

Many of those providing the service are same people who provided it before but with four or five thousand shaft horsepower and some of the best 21st century kit available.

At a meeting earlier, I acquired the task of arranging another two helicopter-MRT training exercises this year. I will do that knowing that though they may be cancelled due to jobs on the day, at least the aircraft won't be broken, have major performance issues, rubbish comms, major leaks, burning power supplies, ....

Some small problems still need sorting. The one big problem still outstanding is that the 'Westland Affair Mk13' as I call it drags on and on slowing AW189 deployment across the Lot 2 bases. Latterly though, it appears it might be as much a Houston problem as a Yeovil one.

Maybe we'll see AW189 operating in the Brecon Beacons, out of St Athans, by the end of 2018 but I've stopped trying to guess when they'll be deployed at Inverness. A smaller and more agile aircraft available for tricky mountain jobs in the north could be a big plus with a S-92 from Stornoway still in the picture for wide area searches. It could be 4 years into a 10 year contract before the promised spec is in place. Not clever.

[[email protected]]

What kind of a reply is that? Outside of the military it’s all commercial. And hell the military wasn’t immune, it was ultimately money that led to it being offloaded. You forget that SAR was unloaded from the MoD because everything at the time was Afghan-centric and we weren't seen as 'core' military business - therefore they were never going to prioritise replacing the Sea King when we needed more Chinooks and a re-engine of the Lynx along with the Puma 2 plan etc etc.

Also, remember that the SARForce was specifically excluded from both the competitions so the actual cost of MilSAR was never properly established - probably because the decision had already been made that SAR would go Civ - not least because there was a very ambitious Chief Coastguard driving things along. You would have been working for Soteria if the first competition hadn't been fouled.

I am quite content that my current employment is revenue generating and I don't have a problem with a private company being paid by the Govt to provide a service - however, when a company is only kept afloat by one Govt contract (Big Bristow is apparently suffering financially) it doesn't take a genius to see that Carillion-style mismanagement could easily happen in order to present a 'happy' picture to both the shareholders and the Govt.

[drugsdontwork]

I’m still not getting it. Yes, Bristow could go bust. However, it looks to have weathered the storm largely now. It’s a risk, for sure, but it’s a risk every company has. As is, being offloaded by the MOD because of higher priorities. The MOD is a slave to the politicians who can and do slash and burn willy nilly, with no real regard to the wider picture, because big boy decisions have to be made with limited resources. The MOD is just as much of a risk for having SAR, if not more so given the precarious state of their budget and defence reviews around every corner. My point is, there is risk no matter who has it. That’s the reality. Another reality is the quality of kit we have, the protection from being beasted with excessive working hours, etc etc. For gods sake we didn’t even have a TAS in the Sea King, never mind TCAS 2, EPGWS and all the other toys that are considered essential to keep us alive in the busy airspace of the U.K.

[drugsdontwork]

I have to say as well that the attitude to risk is better now with civilian SAR. It was a bit of a shock when I came across and learned that we don’t commit the aircraft for training. And it’s a bit of a pain in the backside now when we want to achieve certain training elements. But I shudder now when I look back to the hours and hours of being committed to night drums, the SMIT or other boats, and probably more often than we care to admit, to the top of a bunch of MR guys and girls. You and I Crab both know how quickly the cab would drop in a hover advanced single engine exercise. Yes we endeavoured to commit away from hazards but where was the data set to support that decision making? Mil SAR brought a mil approach to risk. How many times did we commit to nasty hover taxiing up hills for a twisted sock? All the bloody time. All of us did it. We got away with it largely thank god. Civvy SAR has its frustrations but if you want to talk about risk it’s mitigated much more these days than it was.

[[email protected]]

Yes, I understand the risk issues but we were military pilots who might be asked to do far more dangerous things than just hover committed - it was more about mindset than anything else. You don't find SH pilots bleating about operating near the limits of their aircraft in hostile conditions but unfortunately, some in the MilSAR force forget they were actually in the military and became slightly Prima-donna-ish about such things.

Yes, the risk/reward balance sometimes went the wrong way but you know as well as I do that the initial scramble report may be wildly wrong about the nature of the injuries and you don't want to be the one who played the 'safety card' when someone was bleeding out on a hill.

Perhaps it is a generational thing and the fact that I did more than just SAR in 32 years but I have always been comfortable with the risks involved - once you start worrying yourself about that too much you would never get airborne.

I agree entirely about the advantages of all the new kit and I am the biggest advocate of things like TAS - I wouldn't fly without it now - but I still maintain that using 'power-by the hour' or similar COMO terms would have retained out Mil capability whilst equipping us with the best kit available - I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater.

I know Bristow have the best people - I used to work with most of them!

[Thomas coupling]

drugsdontwork:

You missed something:

The military have a word the civvies aren't allowed to use in commercial ops:
ATTRITION.
The MoD builds in attrition when they mitigate risk, which is why several of their "Ops" are ALARP'd in the red sector. Something the civvy world would run a mile from.

Is it a good or bad thing?

In the mil - the saying goes: Couldn't take a joke.....shouldn't have joined.
In civvy street, risks cost money. Money rules. Don't take (red) risks.

IE: Don't do SAR training if you can't hover on one engine. Only do it in anger.

[retreating blade]

I find this conversation mildly amusing but respect your understandable modern day concerns.
Life was far more simple in my military SAR days in the late 60s and early 70s when we only had one engine to worry about. I cannot recall failing to launch ever.

[drugsdontwork]

My comments on risk may be amusing, I’m glad they are. It’s not my own aversion to risk, I’m quite happy with that, like you say can’t take a joke etc etc. But I’m not sure it’s fair to extend a cavalier, it’s only atttition approach to the MRT and others who huddle or dangle under the aircraft. They didnt join the military after all.

[[email protected]]

They didnt join the military after all. No, but they are all volunteers and expose themselves to very risky scenarios on the sides of mountains in atrocious weather so you shouldn't deny their willingness to accept every risk. Yes. try to minimise risk where possible but SAR isn't a risk-free business (well unless you don't actually want to rescue anyone) whether done by MRT, RNLI, heliSAR or anyone else.

The engine-failure in a twin is so unlikely nowadays, especially in modern, state of the art helicopters that avoiding ever training when not OEI capable is frankly overkill and makes training properly far less likely.

The aversion to hovering committed became very high-profile on the Sea King following the OTG problems - not actual engine failures - and plenty of people got very precious about it. During the period we were trying to mitigate it, the quality of our training went down dramatically.

Remember, you are not training for the easy jobs, you are training for the hard ones and, if you don't accept some risks in training, you will be poorly prepared for reality.

[jimf671]

... ...

... How many times did we commit to nasty hover taxiing up hills for a twisted sock? All the bloody time. All of us did it. We got away with it largely thank god.
... ...

There. Reality.


However,
the risk-taking of UK MilSAR was easily eclipsed by the military flyers of some allied nations. I have heard several scary tales of daring-do from SAR Force pilots describing their experiences while training in other territories (the helicopter near miss with the bus always sticks in my mind :eek:). Some of the civilian rescue flying in other EASA territories raises eyebrows in these parts and the rate of European Human External Cargo accidents is still too high.

So UK MilSAR flying was safe in relation to many other examples and now UK CivSAR is safer. And the job is still being done very very well. :D

Thank you to all those working to keep us safe on the wire. :ok:

[[email protected]]

So when there is a need to hover taxi up a mountain in cloud, will it only be done if the casualty has life-threatening injuries (if you actually know that at the time) or will there be times where you just say 'f88k it' and leave them to it.

Jim, you know that many helicopter extractions are often conducted because leaving the MRT to do it would put them at significant risk with a stretcher in poor weather on treacherous terrain - how do you feel about the 'super-safe' SAR crew letting you get on with it because there is a 1 x 10-5 or even 10-6 chance of a single engine failure?

What next? No night decks because you might end up in the water if a donk stops?????

The whole point of having all the best kit is so that the technology mitigates some of the inevitable operating risks (through increased reliability and performance) of doing the job in the way it sometimes has to be done.

[cyclic]

Who is joining at the bottom of civ SAR? Sooner or later the talent pool will run out and all those who trained hard in mil SAR will be gone. You can train your own but there is a real problem brewing for all commercial operators. During the downturn there has been no investment, schools have closed and the pool of available pilots is drying up. I’m not talking about rich 200hr Robbo pilots but those with the experience necessary to sustain the service we now receive. People are paying for their own S92 ratings as the big operators are reluctant to spend the cash on an uncertain future. SAR will find itself in the same situation and the quality of new entrants won’t be determined by their talent but more their ability to pay. Contracts are being accepted that leave zero margin for anything other than regulatory training. The next renewal may not be so attractive to HM Government.

[drugsdontwork]

So when there is a need to hover taxi up a mountain in cloud, will it only be done if the casualty has life-threatening injuries (if you actually know that at the time) or will there be times where you just say 'f88k it' and leave them to it.

Jim, you know that many helicopter extractions are often conducted because leaving the MRT to do it would put them at significant risk with a stretcher in poor weather on treacherous terrain - how do you feel about the 'super-safe' SAR crew letting you get on with it because there is a 1 x 10-5 or even 10-6 chance of a single engine failure?

What next? No night decks because you might end up in the water if a donk stops?????

The whole point of having all the best kit is so that the technology mitigates some of the inevitable operating risks (through increased reliability and performance) of doing the job in the way it sometimes has to be done.

No one says “**** it”. What they will do is assess whether the risks to be taken are appropriate to the task and act accordingly. The “super safe” SAR crew is going to weigh up the risks involved in flying or winching MRT and act accordingly. And as I engage with MRT regularly, let me tell you Crab that they feel just fine about that.

[P3 Bellows]

Just when you thought this willy waving thread was history, someone has to go and breath life into it.............. really!! ��

[drugsdontwork]

Just when you thought this willy waving thread was history, someone has to go and breath life into it.............. really!! ��

Good point. Apologies. I’m out 👍

[[email protected]]

Suggest you read cyclic's post - no willy waving required, just an ability to look at SAR without rose-tinted 'brave new world' glasses.:ok:

I have the greatest faith in my ex-colleagues to always make the right decisions regarding risk - some of the others with little real SAR experience....I'm not so sure.

[P3 Bellows]

Crab,

With that final swing of your willy you prove my point. Well done.

P3

[jimf671]

Crab is providing a useful service. :eek:

I'm 'IC Silly Questions' and he's 'OC Faecal Agitation'. Necessary team work for ensuring best compliance in a challenging environment. :E

[drugsdontwork]

Crab is providing a useful service. :eek:

I'm 'IC Silly Questions' and he's 'OC Faecal Agitation'. Necessary team work for ensuring best compliance in a challenging environment. :E

Where I work, the non ex mil SAR pilots to whom Crab presumably refers are by far the best operators. Why even now he continues to denigrate them is beyond me. And with that I really am out.

[jimf671]

Who is joining at the bottom of civ SAR? ... ...


Like you, I am concerned about the future talent pool. What is evident is that there are some great SAR pilots working in this service who have never served in the military. Some of the best training sorties and ops we have done have been with these guys. So civil pilots can do the job and there will still be military pilots, some with some SAR experience, going into SAR after mil service. What currently concerns me most is the situation for the development of 'SAR Technical Crew'. For the long term security of that skill set I believe that the CAA should take the bold and world-leading step of making it a licensed aviation trade. Yes, more f33kin paperwork, but also major benefits.

[[email protected]]

DDW - do you work at a mountain flight?

[drugsdontwork]

DDW - do you work at a mountain flight?

Crab, with respect, just stop now. I have watched you spread nastiness and sneer at people on here for years now. It is not pleasant and I’m not playing.

[jimf671]

DDW - do you work at a mountain flight?

Step away from keyboard.

Please note DDW's use of the term "MRT".

[[email protected]]

DDW - I think you must be a Daily Mail reader with your outrage settings.

Just because I say I have the greatest faith in my ex-colleagues and am not so sure about those with little real SAR experience DOES NOT mean I am denigrating all non ex-mil SAR pilots in any way shape or form - that is a conclusion you have jumped to without keeping my comments in context ie we were discussing risk/reward wrt hover taxiing up hills in cloud.

I am quite aware there are good operators and bad on both sides of the ex-mil fence so I think you should get over yourself slightly and put teddy back in the cot.

[drugsdontwork]

DDW - I think you must be a Daily Mail reader with your outrage settings.

Just because I say I have the greatest faith in my ex-colleagues and am not so sure about those with little real SAR experience DOES NOT mean I am denigrating all non ex-mil SAR pilots in any way shape or form - that is a conclusion you have jumped to without keeping my comments in context ie we were discussing risk/reward wrt hover taxiing up hills in cloud.

I am quite aware there are good operators and bad on both sides of the ex-mil fence so I think you should get over yourself slightly and put teddy back in the cot.

Teddy firmly in cot. You are clearly unaware of how offensive you are on this thread. And if you think I am the one who needs to get over myself then you are delusional.

[[email protected]]

I am aware that many of those with vested interests didn't like what I had to say about privatisation of SAR and I may have reacted in the past to some of the insults and abuse that came my way but I have never set out to be offensive.

Some people just want to take my remarks that way because they either don't understand them or read far more into them than is there - it is the nature of the written word that it is open to interpretation and easy to be selective about what one reads.

I am many things but delusional isn't one of them - cynical maybe, but that comes from 57 years on the planet and 32 years of being f**ked about by professionals in the military - I was never one of the 'staff-speakers' who thought if they talked the talk it meant they could walk the walk.

I didn't buy the reasons for privatising SAR and I am still unconvinced by its sustainability in its current form - let's hope, for the sake of all those who might need a world-leading SAR service, that I am wrong.

[500e]

@Crab
I have never understood the rational of privatization either? am I correct the mil still have SAR capability with training if so why not invest in our military to the tune of the contract cost yearly.
I appreciate there is a initial cost but if a private concern can get funding :confused:
We need a longer view, not just in this context either, to meany experts each with their own short term ideas.
A re think of MOD operations & procurement might be a ides

[[email protected]]

500e - SARTU still exists at Valley (under a different name I think) and there will some form of basic SAR trg under MFTS but nothing like the long SAR courses that used to be run there and at the Sea King OCU.

The Navy have SAR as a secondary role but how much specific role training they complete I don't know but I don't think it is a lot.

We traded away an excellent capability with poor aircraft for a good capability with excellent aircraft which cost a big bunch of cash, but that was moved from MoD balance sheet to DfT, in what was effectively a PFI (not that those have proved very cost-effective in the past).

Military procurement is so broken and has been for many years with 'clever' staff officers in London doing creative accounting with budgets, Out of Service Dates and long term costings - ask Tucumseh on the mil forum if you want more details.

As I mentioned earlier, SAR was doomed because it wasn't seen as 'core' military business at a point where the Govt realised how bloody expensive going to war actually was!

[jimf671]

On top of all that the Coastguard need to feel important and AVM Niven didn't want SAR in JHC. Then there is the gaping hole in our war-fighting capability that is our lack of proper independent CSAR on a level commensurate with our strike capability. Then for CivSAR to end up starting at the same time as the Fleet Air Arm start working up their SAR-capable helicopter for carrier service is ludicrous. All set in motion about 20 years ago and effortlessly drifting from one disaster to another across the years it has miraculously ended up with a very capable CivSAR service. Although some of the credit for that goes to the advisors who set the spec for the aborted SARH25 for their professionalism and to MCA Aviation for their tenacity, largely, success is due to the skills of the aircrew.

[Thrust Augmentation]

Seems that a bunch of MRT's are pretty dissatisfied with the contract & after raising concerns to the relevant agencies without response have gone public;

Can seem to add links - just https & www

facebook.com/lochabermrt/posts/1875711362478058?__tn__=K-R

[BlackIsle]

Thrust Augmentation - here is a link https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-46072000

[cyclic]

Pretty disgraceful set of affairs when HMCG don’t think the MRT worthy of recovery from the hill. Always the case when you have an agency divorced from the actual operation. The MRT could have given everything to locate a casualty and although capable of getting off the hill themselves, a lift certainly reduces their risk. Let’s not forget that the MRT are volunteers, they are not paid and HMCG would be poorly placed without their dedication. It must be contractual as no one in their right mind would make this kind of statement. This is no reflection on the crews who are, without doubt, just acting under orders.

[BlackIsle]

The joint press release from the 4 MRT'S includes this statement: With the creation of this contract MR was promised that the service delivered would be ‘the same or better.’ It simply isn’t.

For those who may not have seen the Press Statement it makes clear that criticism of the SAR service is not aimed at the crews but rather the various players involved in the contract and tasking - MCA, DfT, ARCC and Police Scotland.

[Davef68]

Hmmm, 3 of those 4 MRTs had a bit of a schism from the rest, in what appeared to be a desire to remain 'pure' MRTs

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35433633

I'd be curious to hear what the remaining members of SMR say

[Thrust Augmentation]

TY for the link BlackIsle.

The lack of recovery of the MRT's when considering that they will often be let down in arduous conditions, in pitch dark is a complete disgrace. Apart from the fact that that the practice in itself is possibly asking for trouble, the MRT volunteers have to get down the hill hopefully making it back home in time to start their paid work!

Maybe coincidence, but I have noticed locally that there have been several deceased climbers whom there has been some wait for the recovery of, possibly to do with location ,snow conditions & so forth, but I doubt that the SAR contact handling is helping.

Big up to the MRT's - I have huge respect!!

[jimf671]

The leader of one of those teams, in January 2013, had a similar rant that resulted in a two-page spread in the Guardian with a headline "Privatising search-and-rescue service and closing bases 'will cost lives'". It was rubbish then and same old same old is rubbish now.

We've always had to walk back. It was always a bonus if you got lifted off. We've always been on our own with dead bodies: well it's not 'life-saving flight' is it?. My first call-out in 1989 was a perfect example of those two points (still on youtube!).

And carrying heavy gear back down was never a problem with the Sea King because it wasn't powerful enough to carry it up to 4000 feet in the first place. The new contract is quite specific about the aircraft being capable of delivering a substantial pile of kit plus 6 MRT to that altitude at ISA +15C in still air with 30 min endurance remaining. :8

None of these guys read the contract spec or CAP 999 or have bothered during several decades of working with helicopters to find out anything useful about them. They try to tell us that the service is not equivalent. They are trying to measure Bristow performance without having any idea of what the requirement is, or why the requirement is expressed in the way that it is. And never having measured RAF and Fleet Air Arm performance they will never be in a position to make a proper comparison. :ugh:

These four teams do a very large proportion of the MR jobs in Scotland. One of them does nearly 100 per year sometimes. Or as Keswick or Wasdale might say, only a hundred? Unfortunately, the number of jobs they do does not mean that they are capable of distorting the space-time continuum in a manner that will make helicopters fly safely in every conceivable circumstance. And as I am sure all rotorhead ppruners realise, the weight of large egos can seriously damage airworthiness. :E

As for "agencies" restricting tasking in some way, there is an easy test.
How many jobs per year did RAF Lossie do? Answer: 215.
How many jobs per year does BHL Inverness do: Answer: 281
How many jobs per year did HMS Gannet do? Answer: 220.
How many jobs per year does BHL Prestwick do: Answer: 351
(Boulmer only did 120 per year and their load is shared across four bases, so that closure cannot explain the increases.)
Adjusting for the Boulmer effect, they are still doing over 30% more jobs than the military were doing before. This is because the aircraft are more capable and more reliable. Amazingly, they don't leak hydraulic oil over SAR passengers, go on fire, break down on the top of hills, turn up for jobs unable to take SAR passengers, or have to keep running on the HLS because they daren't shut down. All that is in the past yet somehow there are people who are close to this and they haven't noticed. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

At the same time, MRT are safer in the air and on the wire than in any territory anywhere in the world. :ok:


Any hour, Any day, Any weather ...

[RVDT]

At the same time, MRT are safer in the air and on the wire than in any territory anywhere in the world.

Too true. Cant think of anywhere else in the planet that has that level of gear. And the UK is basically flat as well!!

[SouthernExplorer]

I would take exception to JimFs view somewhat. The main thrust of the joint teams statement is not so much the lack of capability of the aircraft as to the lack of deployment of the aircraft for particular tasks. (However there is also a lack of capability - we have only recently gone over to the 189 as our cover. Previously the 139 could lift 2 MR team members only. (Or 3 if you left a crew member behind). The 189 can just lift a part - although only a small one. the ground clearance on the aircraft is a real bugbear though. Actually getting it on the ground is a real issue.)

I think the main thrust of the article is that the aircraft should be deployed where available to cover the type of incidents described. If they can make the job safer then they should do so? There is also the small matter of why a team member should give up more time/income than necessary to save the government money.

Also there is a further statement in response/support from a respected ex-Military MR team member available on the Cairngorm MR Facebook page. It's worth a read.

Also note that there was/is a split in MR in Scotland with the 4 busiest teams forming iSMR largely in a debate over how government funding was distributed to MR in Scotland. MR in Scotland (unlike England and Wales) receives quite a bit of government funding. In England and Wales the biggest government funding given to MR is the recently introduced VAT rebate.

[SouthernExplorer]

Also further details of examples of incidents that have given rise to this are in the second half of the article on the grough magazine site of today.

[drugsdontwork]

The leader of one of those teams, in January 2013, had a similar rant that resulted in a two-page spread in the Guardian with a headline "Privatising search-and-rescue service and closing bases 'will cost lives'". It was rubbish then and same old same old is rubbish now.

We've always had to walk back. It was always a bonus if you got lifted off. We've always been on our own with dead bodies: well it's not 'life-saving flight' is it?. My first call-out in 1989 was a perfect example of those two points (still on youtube!).

And carrying heavy gear back down was never a problem with the Sea King because it wasn't powerful enough to carry it up to 4000 feet in the first place. The new contract is quite specific about the aircraft being capable of delivering a substantial pile of kit plus 6 MRT to that altitude at ISA +15C in still air with 30 min endurance remaining. :8

None of these guys read the contract spec or CAP 999 or have bothered during several decades of working with helicopters to find out anything useful about them. They try to tell us that the service is not equivalent. They are trying to measure Bristow performance without having any idea of what the requirement is, or why the requirement is expressed in the way that it is. And never having measured RAF and Fleet Air Arm performance they will never be in a position to make a proper comparison. :ugh:

These four teams do a very large proportion of the MR jobs in Scotland. One of them does nearly 100 per year sometimes. Or as Keswick or Wasdale might say, only a hundred? Unfortunately, the number of jobs they do does not mean that they are capable of distorting the space-time continuum in a manner that will make helicopters fly safely in every conceivable circumstance. And as I am sure all rotorhead ppruners realise, the weight of large egos can seriously damage airworthiness. :E

As for "agencies" restricting tasking in some way, there is an easy test.
How many jobs per year did RAF Lossie do? Answer: 215.
How many jobs per year does BHL Inverness do: Answer: 281
How many jobs per year did HMS Gannet do? Answer: 220.
How many jobs per year does BHL Prestwick do: Answer: 351
(Boulmer only did 120 per year and their load is shared across four bases, so that closure cannot explain the increases.)
Adjusting for the Boulmer effect, they are still doing over 30% more jobs than the military were doing before. This is because the aircraft are more capable and more reliable. Amazingly, they don't leak hydraulic oil over SAR passengers, go on fire, break down on the top of hills, turn up for jobs unable to take SAR passengers, or have to keep running on the HLS because they daren't shut down. All that is in the past yet somehow there are people who are close to this and they haven't noticed. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

At the same time, MRT are safer in the air and on the wire than in any territory anywhere in the world. :ok:


Any hour, Any day, Any weather ...

The nail has been hit very squarely on the head with this post.

[P3 Bellows]

............ and here we go again.

im sure the Helicopter crews must be loving the warm comments coming their way. For example:-

Richard Laird Have to say this comes as absolutely no surprise whatsoever!! From the very start of the tory government decision to privatise this life saving function and remove it from RN/RAF I have always believed there would be a reduction in the level of service and this is now shining through. There was never any possibility of a commercial profit making organisation having the commitment and motivation required for this incredible service!!

Scott Seefeldt Any government that thinks privatisation is a good thing, is either short sited and foolish or just plain arrogant. Companies like Bristow only care about profit and therefore look to deliver contracts in the most profitable way, whilst exploiting our governments inability to clearly define requirments and to negotiate robust contracts. The iSMR do an amazing job in the harshest of conditions, I hope this gets resolved sooner rather than later. Stay safe!


P3

[dingo9]

The logic of a private company trying to save money by turning jobs down makes no sense. Surely a private company gets paid to fly, therefore more jobs=more revenue?? Maybe that’s too simplistic but it must be close to the business model.

[sweatshop]

............ and here we go again.

im sure the Helicopter crews must be loving the warm comments coming their way. For example:-





P3


Nobody -that I've read- is criticising the flight crews, ground support etc. The criticism (as clearly stated in the press statement by Lochaber MRT) is of the management further up the chain in the agencies administering the contract.

[jimf671]

I would take exception to JimFs view somewhat. The main thrust of the joint teams statement is not so much the lack of capability of the aircraft as to the lack of deployment of the aircraft for particular tasks. (However there is also a lack of capability - we have only recently gone over to the 189 as our cover. Previously the 139 could lift 2 MR team members only. (Or 3 if you left a crew member behind). The 189 can just lift a part - although only a small one. the ground clearance on the aircraft is a real bugbear though. Actually getting it on the ground is a real issue.)

There is no lack of deployment. Going back across 10 years of SK numbers, the two most relevant bases are doing 30% more jobs. They fly past my house on the way to Lochaber from Inverness. Aircrew joke about 'the Ben Nevis helicopter'. There is no point in bringing up ground clearance since nobody can change that. A new regime of any kind cannot magically create a modern helicopter with Wessex undercarriage. Anyway, I have hung off the sill of a Sea King at arms length and dropped onto rocky ground as it hovered at ten feet, so this is not new. The aircraft are as contracted for the carrying of a 'MRT Standard Load' (see Definitions, Sch 1.0, page 20) and that definition looks like much of it came from either Cairngorm or Lochaber.


I think the main thrust of the article is that the aircraft should be deployed where available to cover the type of incidents described. If they can make the job safer then they should do so? There is also the small matter of why a team member should give up more time/income than necessary to save the government money.

Team member time? The capability and availability of these aircraft saves huge amounts of team member time by going in and picking up people without needing our participation. I can go back to my bed. Sometimes it swings the other way. It has always been thus.

As for saving the government money, this contract has been let on the basis of the £1.6bn being approximately 85% of the total costs and the rest is variable costs. This has deliberately been organised by MCA Aviation so that there is no financial incentive for the operator to restrict the service. Any restriction imposed by ARCC Fareham is for the purpose of maintaining the asset and ensuring that the next job and the job after that can also get done.

I note that they are trying to take aim at the DfT/MCA while cuddling up to the aircrew yet so much is at the Captain's discretion. This is not a good look.


Also there is a further statement in response/support from a respected ex-Military MR team member available on the Cairngorm MR Facebook page. It's worth a read.

He's doing his best to support those out on the ground. However, he's not on the end of the phone with ARCC Fareham understanding how his successors work and he's not organising helicopter training exercises under the new regime as I was just a couple of days ago.


Also note that there was/is a split in MR in Scotland with the 4 busiest teams forming iSMR largely in a debate over how government funding was distributed to MR in Scotland. MR in Scotland (unlike England and Wales) receives quite a bit of government funding. In England and Wales the biggest government funding given to MR is the recently introduced VAT rebate.

Surely this can't be true? I heard them repeatedly strenuously deny it was about the money. Are you telling me that it really was about the money? They lied? I am shocked. :eek:

The Justice Department funding has been great. Most particularly, it has enabled teams operating in areas of low population with little fund-raising base to fund modern operations that ensure that anyone in distress in these areas is just as well served as someone in the honeypot areas. SMR continue to work with ScotGov on securing appropriate funding into the future. It is particularly impressive that whether it's the main grant money or the LIBOR fine money, SMR have ensured that the entire movement has had the chance to benefit whether they are doing one job a month or five jobs a month.



"They're aw oot o step but oor Jock."

[P3 Bellows]

well Sweatshop, perhaps you should read more widely

Andrew Thompson I’m afraid this was entirely predictable when they took the role off the military and put it out to civilian contract. As those of us that work with such contractors regularly know, the words that immediately spring to mind are brewery and pissup

Whatever the M.R. target was, it looks like there will be a considerable degree of long lasting collateral damage here. The general public are never interested in facts or finer points.

P3

[jimf671]

Whatever the M.R. target was, it looks like there will be a considerable degree of long lasting collateral damage here. The general public are never interested in facts or finer points.P3

Indeed. Recently, Qinetiq have been doing an implementation review. Heaven knows what these guys wrote in their submission. A scatter gun attack on a contract that is providing a world class service is bound to have the effect of obscuring not only the good work currently being done but also the points that should be addressed to update and improve service in the future.

[BlackIsle]

Further news copied from facebook post this evening:

Glencoe, Lochaber, Tayside and Cairngorm Mountain Rescue Teams
4th November 2018
Following our public statement regarding our concerns about the way in which the Rescue Helicopter (SAR H) contract is being coordinated and operated, the four teams of Glencoe, Lochaber, Tayside and Cairngorm have been overwhelmed and humbled by the level of support that we have received from the public.
We have been further gratified to find that so many others in the world of Mountain Rescue and also people with experience in operating and coordinating rescue helicopters have been prepared to lend their support to our concerns. Thank you to each and every one of you.
In addition to thanking you, we wanted to update you on developments since Friday.
We have now received a response from Police Scotland that shows attempts are starting to be made to address the concerns we have had for some time. Our concerns have been acknowledged and commitments have been made to attempt to influence the review of the SAR H contract and to encourage the Maritime Coastguard Agency (MCA) and the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre (ARCC) to adopt a more pragmatic approach to their standard operating procedures.
We are grateful to Assistant Chief Constable Mark Williams for his personal intervention in progressing this and hope that his efforts will be successful. However, we recognise that Police Scotland may not be able to generate the level of change required without a change in stance and practice from the MCA and ARCC. The four teams want to positively recognise that Police Scotland has led this first small step forward.
We have also had invites from several politicians to take up our concerns and we welcome their support We will follow these invites up.
Hopefully the strength of support that has been expressed will help the Agencies on a longer journey to improve the welfare of the casualty and respect for the deceased and their families, and potentially promote the effectiveness of all volunteer mountain rescue teams by experiencing less avoidable risk and being better able to be ready for the next rescue.
Glencoe MRT
Cairngorm MRT
Tayside MRT
Lochaber MRT

[SouthernExplorer]

There is no lack of deployment. Going back across 10 years of SK numbers, the two most relevant bases are doing 30% more jobs. They fly past my house on the way to Lochaber from Inverness. Aircrew joke about 'the Ben Nevis helicopter'. There is no point in bringing up ground clearance since nobody can change that. A new regime of any kind cannot magically create a modern helicopter with Wessex undercarriage. Anyway, I have hung off the sill of a Sea King at arms length and dropped onto rocky ground as it hovered at ten feet, so this is not new. The aircraft are as contracted for the carrying of a 'MRT Standard Load' (see Definitions, Sch 1.0, page 20) and that definition looks like much of it came from either Cairngorm or Lochaber.




Team member time? The capability and availability of these aircraft saves huge amounts of team member time by going in and picking up people without needing our participation. I can go back to my bed. Sometimes it swings the other way. It has always been thus.

As for saving the government money, this contract has been let on the basis of the £1.6bn being approximately 85% of the total costs and the rest is variable costs. This has deliberately been organised by MCA Aviation so that there is no financial incentive for the operator to restrict the service. Any restriction imposed by ARCC Fareham is for the purpose of maintaining the asset and ensuring that the next job and the job after that can also get done.

I note that they are trying to take aim at the DfT/MCA while cuddling up to the aircrew yet so much is at the Captain's discretion. This is not a good look.




He's doing his best to support those out on the ground. However, he's not on the end of the phone with ARCC Fareham understanding how his successors work and he's not organising helicopter training exercises under the new regime as I was just a couple of days ago.




Surely this can't be true? I heard them repeatedly strenuously deny it was about the money. Are you telling me that it really was about the money? They lied? I am shocked. :eek:

The Justice Department funding has been great. Most particularly, it has enabled teams operating in areas of low population with little fund-raising base to fund modern operations that ensure that anyone in distress in these areas is just as well served as someone in the honeypot areas. SMR continue to work with ScotGov on securing appropriate funding into the future. It is particularly impressive that whether it's the main grant money or the LIBOR fine money, SMR have ensured that the entire movement has had the chance to benefit whether they are doing one job a month or five jobs a month.



"They're aw oot o step but oor Jock."

Ground clearance is an issue limiting ops - the actual limitation is not the basic aircraft but the design additions in the choice of under slung toys. Similarly a vehicle that could only deploy 2 MRT members at a time was not the ideal to say the least.

Team member time is an ever impacting issue on the ability to deploy for MR activities. Broadly speaking there are 2 aspects to this. Firstly its the time away from the day job/family. The team members are volunteers doing this of their own volition in their spare time. We have had employers recently saying they can't have employees committed to further MR work. Even out of hours it affects work. Last night our team was alerted at 19:30, deployed around 22:00 and then retrieved at 3AM. Most team members then went to work this morning. Obviously this will have some effect on their work and their employers attitude too. Secondly a team member when deployed really has very limited time. Assuming they are working hard/moving over difficult ground then 6 hours is pushing the limit of what we'd anticipate them doing. In some cases they may be given a break and a chance to go out again, but normally unless their initial deployment is short then it isn't worth attempting to commit them to anything of much duration. So assuming a technical rescue takes some hours it may well be very desirable to retrieve the team by the most expedient method possible. There are also aspect that in remoter areas team members may be driving long distances in their own vehicles before and after deployment.

There has also been issues of MRTs being used to save the cost of using paid personnel. There have been recent flood cases when the FRS have called in MRTs (from out of area) rather than retained firefighters as they don't have to pay them. The 4 teams involved in the original issue split from SMR not so much as because they were "honeypot" areas - they split to concentrate on mountain rescue. With limited training hours in a year they decided to concentrate on core skills to make them more effective in the mountains rather than "Swift Water Rescue" - or sewage wading depending on your point of view.

[jimf671]

Ground clearance is an issue limiting ops - the actual limitation is not the basic aircraft but the design additions in the choice of under slung toys. Similarly a vehicle that could only deploy 2 MRT members at a time was not the ideal to say the least.

That would be the Sea King then with a decent fuel load intended for maritime ops and redeployed to a 3500' mountain. Happened all the time. The current contract at Schedule 2.1 - Specification, Section 4.1.4.1, completely puts SK capability in the shade.


Team member time is an ever impacting issue on the ability to deploy for MR activities. Broadly speaking there are 2 aspects to this. Firstly its the time away from the day job/family. The team members are volunteers doing this of their own volition in their spare time. We have had employers recently saying they can't have employees committed to further MR work. Even out of hours it affects work. Last night our team was alerted at 19:30, deployed around 22:00 and then retrieved at 3AM. Most team members then went to work this morning. Obviously this will have some effect on their work and their employers attitude too. Secondly a team member when deployed really has very limited time. Assuming they are working hard/moving over difficult ground then 6 hours is pushing the limit of what we'd anticipate them doing. In some cases they may be given a break and a chance to go out again, but normally unless their initial deployment is short then it isn't worth attempting to commit them to anything of much duration. So assuming a technical rescue takes some hours it may well be very desirable to retrieve the team by the most expedient method possible. There are also aspect that in remoter areas team members may be driving long distances in their own vehicles before and after deployment.

When coppers say they are the authority for MR, I tell them that the families of team members are the authority for MR.


There has also been issues of MRTs being used to save the cost of using paid personnel. There have been recent flood cases when the FRS have called in MRTs (from out of area) rather than retained firefighters as they don't have to pay them. The 4 teams involved in the original issue split from SMR not so much as because they were "honeypot" areas - they split to concentrate on mountain rescue. With limited training hours in a year they decided to concentrate on core skills to make them more effective in the mountains rather than "Swift Water Rescue" - or sewage wading depending on your point of view.

Not entirely a straight forward issue especially since fire service water training is focussed on urban flood stuff and most MR water training is focussed on raging torrents. I have heard of Police being accused of using MR as a cost saver but I haven't experienced that since I operate in an area where even the shinty pitch is mountainous.

[jimf671]

Further news copied from facebook post this evening:

Some of this has been going on since a meeting in July 2016 so let's be careful with any suggestion of instant success.

[jimf671]

Meanwhile, back at the coal face, four years after contract start date, the full contracted fleet will soon be in place when the AW189 starts operating at Inverness in the spring. :ok:

Just steady revenue from now on?

[nowherespecial]

I wonder if CHC and Babcock are in with HMC right now to see if the SAR contract can be torn up with BRS likely to breach some contractual financial requirements? The service needs to be safeguarded. While no expert on SAR at all, judging by the numbers proposed above, the loss of this service for even a few days could have major impact on lives and safety.

As a second level of detail, I would suspect that a contract of this size would require a performance bond and a parent company guarantee which the customer (HMC) could call on in the event the local BRS entity were no longer able to perform the work. The issue here of course will be that the parent is unlikely to be able to fulfill it either. Most contracts I have seen also contain termination clauses in the event of financial problems or material breaches of corruption laws. If the Senior Management Team are being sued, that (for me) would def constitute a breach serious enough to contemplate termination (were it to be proven of course). I can't see any operator other than CHC and Bbk being able to stand up such a service in a short period of time (and CHC might have a small advantage here as the 189 is already in the fleet, albeit not in the UK so far as I'm aware). Equally the government (via HMC) would not be able to take over the contract as they lack the technical knowledge to run the aircraft in the fleet (even if they were allowed to).

I hope I'm wrong, SAR is a wonderful and needed service but how the whole BRS situation comes to a head will be fascinating to watch.

[industry insider]

I don't think that any operator would be able to take over the UK SAR contract short term without utilising BRS aircraft, crews and facilities. It would be easier for someone to buy out the part of BRS which operates the SAR contract and take on the existing aircraft (crewed) and facilities now that BRS has sold all the aircraft to raise cash.

[jimf671]

If it really came to the crunch, there is the Swedish option and just nationalise it. However, nobody should expect that level of pragmatism to eclipse political dogma in 2019 Britain. Back in 2013, there had been expectations that Bond would get Lot 2 and that would have been more complicated in some ways but the financial resilience in circumstances like these would be vastly improved.

I am expecting it to blow over.

UK SAR is a turning into a proper revenue earner. Four or five months from now all the transition pains will be relieved, another two GAP aircraft shipped out, and it should be plain sailing to the end of contract.

[Apate]

Revenue, sure! Profit, well who knows? It looks like BRS have difficulty working out the basics of accounting ;)

[jimf671]

G-MCGM, the original Vergiate AW189 SAR, is currently at Inverness training in preparation for the 1st May start of operations as Rescue/Coastguard 151. It appears to have undergone a few upgrades since we first saw it at Norwich four and half years ago! A second aircraft is expected to join it at Inverness shortly.

Last night, twenty of us from SMR teams across the NW Highlands were at Dalcross training with it. More such training will take place next week.

Pilot enthusiasm for the type was much in evidence.

[[email protected]]

If only they weren't also losing rearcrew and steadfastly failing to acknowledge the poor salaries for technical crew are the root cause - as noted at the beginning of the contract.

[Same again]

So it is encouraging to see that 200+ paramedics applied for the 5 rear crew positions advertised recently. Hope they are prepared for a huge drop in pay and conditions ;-)

[TUPE]

I'll just leave this here; https://www.rotorandwing.com/2019/04/16/bristow-warns-dire-financial-future-possible-bankruptcy-sec-filing/

[[email protected]]

So it is encouraging to see that 200+ paramedics applied for the 5 rear crew positions advertised recently. Hope they are prepared for a huge drop in pay and conditions ;-)Ah yes, the grand plan so often touted by the same person - lets just wait and see how many get to the front-line fully qualified in time to stop people leaving shall we:)

SAR technical crew have a great, although physically, mentally and emotionally challenging, job and their skill-set and commitment is woefully undervalued by bean counters, especially when advised by those who know no better.

When you place those who should know better on the management side in pay negotiations then there is little chance of remedying the situation.

[TUPE]

Bristow Group Puts Bankruptcy on the Table

2:58 pm ET April 17, 2019 (Dow Jones) Print
By Becky Yerak

Aviation services business Bristow Group Inc. said bankruptcy is an option as it tries to restructure its debt in the face of dwindling liquidity.

The Houston-based company, which provides helicopter transportation services to oil and gas companies and has business units focused on search, rescue and aircraft-support services, said Monday that it has hired financial Houlihan Lokey Inc. and Alvarez & Marsal Holdings LLC and law firms Baker Botts LLP and Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz.

The professional firms, all prominent names in restructuring circles, will review strategic and refinancing alternatives that would allow Bristow to restructure its debt and other contractual obligations at a time when the company's level of cash and available credit is falling.

As of late last week, Bristow had $202.1 million in cash and liquidity available under its asset-based lending facility. That's down from $236.9 million at the end of the year and $319.5 million in the immediately preceding quarter, regulatory filings show.

"We have engaged financial and legal advisors to assist us in, among other things, analyzing various strategic financial alternatives to address our liquidity and capital structure, including strategic financial alternatives to restructure our indebtedness," Bristow said in a filing Monday with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

"We and certain of our subsidiaries may elect to implement such a transaction through chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code to obtain court approval of such transactions," it said.

Bristow has major operations in the North Sea, Nigeria and the Gulf of Mexico, and in most other major offshore oil-and-gas producing regions of the world, including Australia, Brazil, Canada, Russia and Trinidad. It said it also provides search-and-rescue services to the private sector worldwide and to the public sector in the U.K.

The decline in oil and gas prices has been a contributing factor in the bankruptcies in recent years of at least four other helicopter services companies, including PHI Inc.

Bristow said in its SEC filing earlier this week that its liquidity has been hurt by a prolonged downturn in the offshore oil and gas market, its debt levels, lease and aircraft purchase commitments and certain other commercial contracts. The company said it has substantial interest payment obligations related to its debt, as well as major lease and aircraft purchase commitments, over the next year.

A bankruptcy filing would protect Bristow from creditors and give the company a chance to revisit contracts.

Bristow also said Monday that it was taking advantage of a 30-day grace period and not making a $12.5 million interest payment due this week on 6.25% bonds maturing in 2022 as it continues to review its financing.

Those bonds were trading Wednesday at 17 cents on the dollar.

Bristow spokesman Adam Morgan told The Wall Street Journal Wednesday that the company was working with advisers to best position the business both financially and operationally.

Mr. Morgan said no final decisions have been made on how Bristow will reach that goal, adding that the company wouldn't speculate on the potential outcome of the work being done with advisers.

Bristow said in its regulatory filing that it also has obtained waivers from certain lenders that give it more time to file its financial report for the quarter ended Dec. 31. Bristow said internal controls over its financial reporting were ineffective as of March 31, 2018, and in subsequent reporting periods.

Write to Becky Yerak at [email protected]

WSJ Pro Bankruptcy also covers distressed companies. Inclusion of a company in this category is not intended to suggest that it will file for bankruptcy protection, default on its debt or suffer any other financial failure.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

April 17, 2019 14:58 ET (18:58 GMT)

[P3 Bellows]

said Monday that it has hired financial Houlihan Lokey Inc. and Alvarez & Marsal Holdings LLC and law firms Baker Botts LLP and Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz.

​​​​​​​well I guess that is all the vultures in place to pick over what is left...........

[gulliBell]

Yep. Splashing the cash to expedite the inevitable.

[cyclic]

UK SAR is a turning into a proper revenue earner. Four or five months from now all the transition pains will be relieved, another two GAP aircraft shipped out, and it should be plain sailing to the end of contract.

I’m withdrawing all my cash from the Royal Bank of Jim!

[retreating blade]

Long stop position: just return SAR to the military and remove the commercial bean counter option that will never provide a viable service without risk.
Pedro 45 in 1968!

[Self loading bear]

I think UK SAR is the only thing of real value in Bristow.
A long contract with guaranteed revenue.
Almost all other contracts (offshore) have a 90 day clause.

I expect the UK SAR contract (with AOC) will be sold off.
The fact that they have not yet turned to Chapter 11 is a sign that they have not yet found a buyer.

The rest is then up for grabs.

[jimf671]

Long stop position: just return SAR to the military and remove the commercial bean counter option that will never provide a viable service without risk.
Pedro 45 in 1968!

Fascinating. Do you understand that the British military is so short staffed and desperate that they even employ me! If it returned to the military now, I'd expect somebody to ring up from Abbey Wood to ask if it could be done with a leased Transit van until the end of the next financial year.

[jimf671]

I think UK SAR is the only thing of real value in Bristow.
A long contract with guaranteed revenue.
Almost all other contracts (offshore) have a 90 day clause.

I expect the UK SAR contract (with AOC) will be sold off.
The fact that they have not yet turned to Chapter 11 is a sign that they have not yet found a buyer.

The rest is then up for grabs.

It will be interesting to see how different this runs from the CHC story.

[Krautwald]

If UK SAR is sold, who will likely pick it up?

[minigundiplomat]

My money would be on Babcock - the company specialises in trousering UK tax receipts.

[ShyTorque]

Fascinating. Do you understand that the British military is so short staffed and desperate that they even employ me!

We had no idea things were so bad. :p

[jimf671]

My money would be on Babcock - the company specialises in trousering UK tax receipts.


The only one in the game that doesn't have an empty wallet?


Edit:

Or ....?

[jimf671]

In November 2017, I posted the following elsewhere when the Bristow Group bean counter numbers did not make sense in relation to the proposed rollout on the ground.

"The key related element of the earnings presentation is the order book which for UK SAR shows 4 large rotorcraft delivered in SEPTEMBER 2019. In line with that revelation are statements about a wider deferment of capital expenditure on aircraft and the possibility of not making any money in the North Sea during some of the examined periods. ... ... Their capex deferment plan runs out to 2021 and if they can put four aircraft back two years then I suspect it is simply cheaper to pay a penalty than pay for the aircraft and pay for all the training conversion. These things don't get any cheaper as we move toward 2023, so it just gets worse and worse. The next contract probably considers contractor performance on previous contracts: black mark for not completing the promised aircraft provision."

Here we are in April 2019 and the four aircraft were transferred from Leonardo to Bristow some time ago and fleet deployment is days away from completion. Multiply that discrepancy out across the entire Bristow Group world and it turns into big bucks and big trouble.

[Apate]

Does anyone actually know if the UK SAR contract has produced a profit when viewed in isolation, or is it simply a case of good cashflow that greases the wheels of a bankrupt company?

[jimf671]

Does anyone actually know if the UK SAR contract has produced a profit when viewed in isolation, or is it simply a case of good cashflow that greases the wheels of a bankrupt company?

A difficult question when viewing from the outside. Some suggest the AW189 delay may be partly supported by Leonardo but it's still quite likely the latter case is the reality up to this point. In a few months when CG151 is in place and the transition team are gone there should be a chance to make some money. It won't be huge though since a contract estimated at £2bn to £3.3bn for 14 or 15 aircraft that was awarded at £1.6bn after revising to 22 aircraft (incumbent's bid over 20% higher!) :ugh: isn't going to be plain sailing.

[[email protected]]

Long stop position: just return SAR to the military and remove the commercial bean counter option that will never provide a viable service without risk.
Pedro 45 in 1968! The military are so broke and the training system so slow that it would take another 10 years to make it happen.

Wind the clock back to when I was consistently flamed on PPrune for saying privatising UKSAR was a crap idea...............

[500e]

The military are so broke and the training system so slow that it would take another 10 years to make it happen.

Wind the clock back to when I was consistently flamed on PPrune for saying privatising UKSAR was a crap idea...............
But as you were told meany times it's a brave new world & will be alright

[[email protected]]

But as you were told meany times it's a brave new world & will be alright yes, that's going really well.....
Fortunately, the boys and girls on the front line are doing what they do best - just constantly let down by poor management.

[Ed Winchester]

yes, that's going really well.....
Fortunately, the boys and girls on the front line are doing what they do best - just constantly let down by poor management.

Which in itself bears a striking resemblance to the military :}

[[email protected]]

Which in itself bears a striking resemblance to the military https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif yes, I almost put that in my previous post - didn't say the military was perfect but we could have achieved the same service if we had just been given new aircraft.

[detgnome]

They would probably still be in the initial stages of evaluation at Boscombe....

[Apate]

A difficult question when viewing from the outside. Some suggest the AW189 delay may be partly supported by Leonardo but it's still quite likely the latter case is the reality up to this point. In a few months when CG151 is in place and the transition team are gone there should be a chance to make some money. It won't be huge though since a contract estimated at £2bn to £3.3bn for 14 or 15 aircraft that was awarded at £1.6bn after revising to 22 aircraft (incumbent's bid over 20% higher!) :ugh: isn't going to be plain sailing.

Thanks Jim. At least it should be very cash flow positive over the coming few years as the Capex will have all been covered.

[jimf671]

With CHC as a recent bankrupt (And are they still holding the Black Spot?), and Babcock's parent worth the same two brass farthings as Bristow group, who you gonna call?

[[email protected]]

They would probably still be in the initial stages of evaluation at Boscombe.... Not a process that is required to utilise civil aircraft on the military register.......

Sadly, the 'brave new world' still has donkeys leading the lions............

[dingo9]

Does anyone actually know if the UK SAR contract has produced a profit when viewed in isolation, or is it simply a case of good cashflow that greases the wheels of a bankrupt company?
this is a good point. Almost certainly there is no overall profit yet, still a great contract to have and as you say positive cash flow.
As for Bristow Helicopters Ltd being sold off, I wouldn’t have thought that Ch 11 conditions would allow this. The whole point in being granted Ch11 by a court is that it gives the company a chance to re pay debtors, therefore the judge will look very carefully at what parts of the company make money. The other complication of course is Ch11 is purely an American thing, UK SAR is under Bristow Helicopters Ltd and SAR does not have its own AOC. All makes for interesting viewing!

[jimf671]

I still think that as far as UK SAR is concerned there is a good chance it will just blow over. The Americans will do what they have to do. BHL will keep cashing cheques from the DfT. Keep calm and carry on. Same as the CHC Ireland experience.

But that's for THIS contract. What happens when the DfT has to renew the contract (already working on it) and nobody with the technical ability to provide the service can demonstrate the financial competence they expect?

[[email protected]]

It would be interesting to see how a certain individual who was at the forefront of pushing the UKSAR model, and had visions of selling it to other nations, views his business plan now...........

[jimf671]

Whatever happens in Houston, people will still get hauled out of the waters of the Minch and off rocky ledges in Kintail. I don't think anyone in an orange suit is worried about their job.

Meanwhile, there are more worries from ex-92 aircrew at Inverness about where to put everything in a 189! I expect airframes will be shuttled around the fleet in the next few days to get a couple of low hours ones up to Inverness. (You would, wouldn't you?) A week from now we'll have a completed roll-out of the original plan. It's taken a while.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1824x1368/dscn1462_med_216ca97518b0df805a8db9f35592f5917d4e8e66.jpg

[snakepit]

It would be interesting to see how a certain individual who was at the forefront of pushing the UKSAR model, and had visions of selling it to other nations, views his business plan now...........

In what way? As the total success it appears to be? Delivering the service, arguably better, on budget, despite OEM delays. Or are you suggesting he is in some way responsible for different business unit decisions that occur in Huston? That would be a like suggesting the SARF was actually a failure because of (for example) the total mismanagement of procurement in MOD.

As Jim says, people will keep getting rescued by the service. Nothing changes from military to civi SAR. Troops keep doing the job and continue to be baffled by either 2/3 star officers or SMT decisions. 😬

[[email protected]]

As Jim says, people will keep getting rescued by the service. Nothing changes from military to civi SAR. Troops keep doing the job and continue to be baffled by either 2/3 star officers or SMT decisions. which is almost exactly what I have said in my previous posts.

How long has it taken to actually meet the terms of the contract? And you can't blame the OEM for all of that delay.

The proof of this contract's success will be in its renewal which, looking at the rearcrew manning problems looming, could prove problematic for any future contractor - perhaps if the pay were to be set at a realistic level.................

That would be a like suggesting the SARF was actually a failure because of (for example) the total mismanagement of procurement in MOD. not a failure as such, the records speak for themselves, but certainly a prime cause for the loss of military SAR - that and a desire to move it off the military budget as it wasn't 'core business':ugh:

[jimf671]

There are a few things that some understood way back at contract award in March 2013 that affect how and where we've arrived now and where we're going with this in the future.

1. Corporate hustlers thousand of miles away are always out for themselves.
2. The AW189 SAR did not exist as an operational aircraft.
3. The contract technical spec and national SAR regulatory framework that were coming into play were about to surprise a lot of people because nobody had written all of that stuff down before.
4. SAR Technical Crew was not a licensed aviation trade and the CAA and the contractors were sleep-walking into a long-term problem in relation to how "the market" would respond to that.

Numbers 2 & 3 are fixed.

[[email protected]]

Jim - someone sold those corporate hustlers the idea of bidding for UKSAR promising them a pot of gold - not defending hustlers but someone had to push the idea through the boardroom.

BRS bid using the 189 knowing point 2.

Point 3 had been mostly covered in the doomed Soteria bid.

Point 4 is very valid but someone who doesn't value SARTC or rearcrew in general biased the salaries too heavily towards the pilots and forgot who actually takes all the risks in SAR.

[jimf671]

Re Point 4, Service pay is due for 2019 review this month but 2018-19 PA Scales show the following.

PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level? :E)
PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)

[[email protected]]

I was level 33 when I left:ok:

Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.

Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.

[drugsdontwork]

I was level 33 when I left:ok:

Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.

Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.

Utter rubbish. Most of the pilots started on way less than that and lots had to pay a 30k salary sacrifice over 3 years. I was earning a lot less than I would have on PAS.

[[email protected]]

Utter rubbish. Most of the pilots started on way less than that and lots had to pay a 30k salary sacrifice over 3 years. I was earning a lot less than I would have on PAS. Then you are not very representative of those who I worked with in the Mil - yes, they had to fund their own IRs but those figures were what was offered at the interview stage.

Did you go straight in as a SAR captain with 5 years plus UKSAR experience?

[drugsdontwork]

Then you are not very representative of those who I worked with in the Mil - yes, they had to fund their own IRs but those figures were what was offered at the interview stage.

Did you go straight in as a SAR captain with 5 years plus UKSAR experience?

I was one the people you worked with. I would imagine that makes me representative.

[[email protected]]

Well, your version seems different from others - i don't know what your Ts and Cs were and are - what are you earning there now?

Did CB change the salary offer after the second stage of interview? I didn't get there thankfully but the £95K for SAR Captains was what was touted - if they didn't deliver that, I am even happier not to have got a job with them.

[snakepit]

Re Point 4, Service pay is due for 2019 review this month but 2018-19 PA Scales show the following.

PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level? :E)
PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)

Jim, just in the interest of equal opportunities I’m going to issue you an “utter rubbish” notice a la DDW on Crab. 😂

PAS is not nor ever was the norm for TC equivalence to pay in the military, nor (referring to your earlier posts on the same topic) is RN Observer pay. If you want to join the Russians, Chinese and Trump in the ‘fake news’ market you’re going the right way about it. 👍🤣