SOUTHEND - 3 The new beginning

[LTNman]

Seems that Easyjet aircraft are spending a lot of time on the tarmac at Southend these days. Today’s 10:15 arrival does not depart again until 15:30 while the 14:15 does not leave until 18:30. Would have thought another route or two could have been squeezed in by rejigging the timetable.

[smallpilot]

LTN MAN...
change the record.
If you have never got anything good to say about SEN, then dont say anything at all.
there's a good lad.

[vulcanised]

A thriving LTN-WAT service was killed off by Stobart


Yet another dumb remark.

If Stobart hadn't come along to the rescue there likely wouldn't be any Aer Arran to go anywhere.

[Phileas Fogg]

Where's SENman when you need him? :)

[maliyahsdad2]

Wouldn't he be on the Luton thread, finding things to knock, sorry, be objective about? :zzz:

[ericlday]

Knock Luton thats a Ryanair route !!!!

[Phileas Fogg]

And what is Luton Airport famous for anyway? ...

http://www.freedompr.com/sites/default/files/ANDERSON_EASYJET%2004.jpg

[LTNman]

Lorraine Chaise
Being on a hill
Snow when it is raining everywhere else
Overcrowded with passengers
Overcrowded with biz jets
Delays at Security
The list is endless but I am happy to talk about them on the Luton thread and where you won't get slagged off if you do.

What is Southend famous for? Well it is not its airport but its pier.:ok:

[LTNman]

LTN MAN...
change the record.
If you have never got anything good to say about SEN, then dont say anything at all.
there's a good lad.



Sorry does this mean that I should not have mentioned it or should I have put some spin on it. OK I will try and gloss up the news.

Seems that Easyjet aircraft are spending a lot of time on the tarmac at Southend these days. This is great news as the aircraft are not wearing out as quickly and if there is a delay on the first flight of the day there is plenty of time to catch up before the second and only remaining departure leaves.

Passengers at Gatwick and other airports often face delays as easyjet often tries to get 4 return flights a day out of their aircraft so passengers using Southend should benefit from the airlines generous tarmac time.


OK happy now?

[Phileas Fogg]

Please do try to spell "slagged off" correctly ...

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6121/6207111898_2f6258761f_z.jpg

Funny that the bus reads "Luton Airport" with no mention being made of "London"!

[LTNman]

This is a Southend thread so please post your pictures on the Luton thread.

Got to say that is a nice retro shot of the bus which I can just remember but it won't be appreciated here.

A more up to date picture can be found here First Coaches . 19031 YJ07LVX . Luton Airport Parkway Station . 22nd December-2009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21611052@N02/4206903784/)

[Phileas Fogg]

Ah OK,

So Luton Airport has moved location, and is now in London, since the photo was taken.

Thanks for explaining ... my mistake!

[fatmed]

Calm down. Airports are just businesses and while very interesting to follow I can't see why some people are behaving like football fans. I am waiting for chants of Luton or southend til I die. and a punch up at the pub after extra time. Grow up everyone and stick to proper news.

[vulcanised]

Grow up everyone


I would say we are normally grown up in here. It's just when that unwelcome child from Luton shows up that it gets silly.

[Barling Magna]

Seems that Easyjet aircraft are spending a lot of time on the tarmac at Southend these days. This is great news as the aircraft are not wearing out as quickly and if there is a delay on the first flight of the day there is plenty of time to catch up before the second and only remaining departure leaves.

Passengers at Gatwick and other airports often face delays as easyjet often tries to get 4 return flights a day out of their aircraft so passengers using Southend should benefit from the airlines generous tarmac time.

I enjoyed that LTNman; excellent positive spin! Keep it up - Don't Worry, Be Happy!!

[LTNman]

Fatmed wrote

Calm down.

Well said. Only on this thread could hostility exist when I mention that more destinations could operate from this fantastic go ahead airport that is loved by the traveling public (positive spin) if easyjet utilized their aircraft more. Why that would upset anyone is beyond me.:confused:

[Fairdealfrank]

Nice picture of Lorraine!

[Ernest Lanc's]

I am going to be progressive FDF, and pick the bus.;)

[Fairdealfrank]

Have to say it, Ernest, but if it's a choice between Lorraine and the bus, will take Lorraine every time.

[Phileas Fogg]

Don't worry guys ...

I was just playing with the troll, we should all remember that aviation, in LTNman's case, is just a job and we shouldn't be taking our work home with us for fear of becoming boring b@st@rds.

Here's a pic of where I'm living these days ... and not a sign of a Lorraine Chase or a Luton Airport bus in sight ... could be worse, I could be working/living in Luton.

P.S. As a nipper I actually lived in Dunstable ... I've moved on :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8163973175_3b158f37d3_z.jpg

[SARF]

Nice view of the pier in the background there:ok:

[LTNman]

Nice picture, so when did you move to Southend's seafront? :cool:

Please stop posting comments about Luton unless they relate to London Southend Airport, as you will start to upset the guys here. Your comments are more then welcome on the Luton thread.

[Barling Magna]

Surely that's Torquay, isn't it........?

Actually they have put palm trees along Southend's seafront, as this image shows:
http://www.victhomasson-photography.com/images/PalmTrees.jpg

[compton3bravo]

If that is Southend then that cyclist (why is he not wearing a helmet and high vis jacket) is going to get a shock when he sees the oncoming traffic!

[Barnaby the Bear]

Not when he is on the cycle lane. :ok:

[Ernest Lanc's]

What's the fuss: Blackpool with trees;):p

[Fairdealfrank]

Nah! It's Bournemouth (London West) without the chines, no fuss.

[Barling Magna]

That photo really is Southend, with the little train heading to the pier head, and that chap is indeed on the cycle path; but here is an image of the same palm trees in weather rather more typical of recent summers:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01993/Katia-_1993774c.jpg
Perhaps SEN should use the earlier image to promote Southend as a destination for foreign visitors...........

[maliyahsdad2]

Southend has its faults like any British town, but somedays you can see it has potential !https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554327_4739046513000_53430778_n.jpg

[Fairdealfrank]

Looks good, must visit, pity there are no flights from LHR!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "That photo really is Southend, with the little train heading to the pier head, and that chap is indeed on the cycle path; but here is an image of the same palm trees in weather rather more typical of recent summers:"

Don't you mean the little train heading to the airport!

Seriously though, the picture looks really good, must visit.

Pity there's no flights from LHR.

[LTNman]

Now that's a good idea. A service to London is just what the airport needs.:E

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Now that's a good idea. A service to London is just what the airport needs".

Did say LHR, not LCY, but thanks, LTNman, for the endorsement!

[Ernest Lanc's]

must visit, pity there are no flights from LHR!


Are you saying you need a shuttle from LHR to SEN?..If so are you suggesting, that SEN should become Heathrows 3rd runway?:D.

[davidjohnson6]

About a week ago, I flew with OLT Express out of Southend and was impressed with the experience. Punctual flight, minimal hassle, free snack, leather seats, loads of legroom, no scrum either at boarding or on arrival, and all for 40 pounds one way. Aircraft may be 18 years old, but cabin seemed to look ok.

Unfortunately, the flight had a load factor of about 20%, which presumably is not good for OLT's profit figures.

I know OLT are planning to have a brief stint on SEN-Dresden around Xmas, now have an English language website and are selling tickets for the last week in March, but will they *really* return to SEN from late March onwards, or will they more likely decide by late Feb that they've had enough of abysmal ticket sales and just close their operations at Southend ?

[LTNman]

Can't see them coming back, if they do they must have money to burn.

One could argue the reasons why loads are so low and whether using Southend as the London gateway is a help by keeping costs down or a hindrance by maybe keeping passengers away. I am not saying they would do any better by flying into some other London airports but maybe they would if they used London City or maybe even Gatwick except Gatwick would not want this small player at its airport.

[Aero Mad]

With their lack of marketing, they'd be blighted at every London airport.

[Phileas Fogg]

I think F100's in/out of LCY might raise a few eyebrows ... or turn a few underpants brown!

[tayair6]

i am surprised to hear OLT EXPRESS operative at SEN recently. i thought they were planing for 2013 .are you saying it is F100 plane they are using .

[Barling Magna]

Yes, OLT Express operated flights to SEN from Dresden and Saarbrucken for two weeks in late October/early November coinciding with the school holidays in Germany. They used F100s. SEN management wanted nothing to do with this ill-timed start and preferred a springtime commencement. There was no mention of the services on the News pages of the SEN website. Here is a photo by Wayne Alderton of one of the F100s at SEN:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s480x480/150344_419574811431414_534452351_n.jpg

OLT Express are advertising SEN to Saarbrucken and SEN - DRS starting 18th March 2013 and DRS -SEN over the Christmas period. You can see the details here:
OLT Express - Flight schedule - London (SEN) (http://oltexpress.partners.de/en/flugplan/london)

The lack of marketing by OLT Express was breathtaking; even their website had no English language option (although this has recently been installed). Hoping to establish a route within seven weeks of announcing the idea was, er, ambitious..... The whole story has been a model of German inefficiency. With proper marketing routes to London from Germany via SEN should be successful - shorter flight distance, no worry about the London TMA, rapid transit through the terminal to the train all make for a swift and hassle-free experience.

[paul_ss1]

Hi, yep they used an F-100... picture proof here olt_d-aolh_1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/paul46722/8139144222/in/photostream) on my Flickr

Really bad marketing - my scant knowledge of German allowed me to suss out prices etc and I NEARLY booked a Dresden trip but didn't in the end. Wish I had have done now!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Are you saying you need a shuttle from LHR to SEN?..If so are you suggesting, that SEN should become Heathrows 3rd runway?"

Ha ha, Ernest, you are the voice of reason!

Wasn't actually thinking of that, just thinking of a quick way to avoid the traffic, but it's an definitely an idea as worthy of consideration as the Fantasy Vanity Project Estuary Airport.

[s2art1e]

Unfortunately the OLT Express flights from Southend are destined to fail. Southend has turned out to be a great success withnthe likes of EZ, however these German destination are a wrong fit for this airport.

LH operated a daily CRJ 900 out of LHR up until April this year to Dresden, which I travelled on, on a number of occasions. Each time I flew, the flight was at least 75% full. The reason LH pulled the route is due to the lack of premium travellers. However with the sale of BMI to BA, they obviously wanted to use the precious LHR slots into one of their main hubs using larger aircrafts.

If OLT Express were able to fly out of any of LGW, LTN OR STN, they would increse their chances of operating a profitable route 3 fold, with the right timings and marketing, they would have a better chance of filling one of their Fokker 100 aircrafts.

I understand that LH are dropping their LGW / Frankfurt flight, I wonder if they are re considering using that slot for a re commencement of the Dresden service? Maybe using OLT to operate the service on their behalf.

[tophat27dt]

With Dresden as a desitination, I think it must be well advertised, and local travel agents encouraged to set up short break holidays there. Maybe most Essex people do not know what to see and do in Dresden, but I like the city very much...for say 3 nights. If the tickets are kept below £200 return I am sure OLT could fill a Saab 2000 during summer months. If the local Germans have wishes to visit London, a FK100 would be suitable too. Saarbrucken is a more difficult case. At Luxembourg the competition to London is high with Luxair and CityJet already busy on the LCY route, BA to LHR, and now the new EZY route to LGW. However, Saarbrucken is one hour's drive from Lux so the city (which is largely populated and surrounded by many smaller towns) may feel pleased to have their own local connection to London. SEN is more than ideal for this market, provided they can keep the ticket price below £150 return to remain competitive. That's my opinion.

[Pain in the R's]

Southend has turned out to be a great success withnthe likes of EZ

Don't believe everything you read on this thread. With just three aircraft based at Southend you would think they could keep their aircraft busy yet they spend most of the time on the ground.

[Phileas Fogg]

And let it not be missed that Haan, and a more distant Charloeroi, are alternatives for the 40% of the Luxembourg population that are expats.

[tophat27dt]

very few "ex-pats" in Luxembourg use Hahn or Charleroi to travel to London. It's more than 75 minutes drive and when the weather is bad...it's a nightmare. I recently used RYR from Hahn to Tallinn, and it was very cheap, very good...but only because there is no other option.

[vulcanised]

yet they spend most of the time on the ground


Since the majority of commercial traffic during the day spend about an hour on the ground, your remark is totally inaccurate. Agree with JTSB.

[asdf1234]

JTSB has posted 8 times and all post are both about SEN and pro-SEN. I wouldn't take much notice of his over-excited juvenile spotter comments.

There as those that think SEN have built a decent airport and comment accordingly, those that have hidden agendas to promote SEN (Expressflight for example) who relentlessly put down any criticism of SEN, and those without knowledge or experience who slavishly follow them, just like young JTSB.

SEN has been successful in attracting EZY. That's good for Southend golfers and Southend holiday home owners travelling to their pad in Spain or Portugal. There is no financial benefit to Southend as a town. The maintenance flights into SEN existed before Stobarts took over. There are no business aviation flights over and above those that all ready took place and flight training at the airport is under pressure (increased fees and lack of space for competing FTO's).

All of this deserves informed comment and discussion but if you don't believe in or support what is happening at SEN then you will not be welcome on this thread. Seems to be this is a classic case of those who have lost the argument thinking that by shouting the loudest they will be proved right.

[davidjohnson6]

asdf - I think you're being slightly unfair as to certain individuals. 2 of the most common posters on this thread have been fairly clear as to their agendas - there's nothing wrong with someone saying on this thread "I'm paid by Southend and this is my opinion", or the converse "I work at Luton and here's what I believe". I don't always agree with either side of an opinion, but I genuinely believe that as long as they are reasonably open and avoid sniping at others, we should listen to what they have to say. Listening solely to neutral and ignorant observers makes for a boring and pointless degenerative thread

[Pain in the R's]

vulcanised wrote

Since the majority of commercial traffic during the day spend about an hour on the ground, your remark is totally inaccurate. Agree with JTSB. Yes at other airports but not Southend. As already pointed out on another post Easyjet aircraft hardly leave the ground at the moment at Southend with between 3 and 5 hours between the arrival and the aircrafts next departure. A quick look tonight shows the last easyjet arrival was at 19:25 so that’s another 12 hours on the ground. I think some of their aircraft are only being used for around 4 hours of flying a day from Southend.

[SWBKCB]

If you look, you find this isn't just happening at SEN.

Quietest time of the year.

[Pain in the R's]

Yes I quite agree with what you say but reading some of the posts here you would think that easyjet would have no problem filling aircraft and would have a full programme of flights from Southend. The reality is unpalatable for some here who put their fingers in their ears at the thought that Southend is not as popular as they would like to think.

[Ernest Lanc's]

If you look, you find this isn't just happening at SEN.

Quietest time of the year.

That is correct..Bound to be quieter at this time of the year..

[EGPFlyer]

Geneva flights start soon and Venice is in February. The current gaps will allow them to slot in.

[Expressflight]

Do some people here really belief that I get paid by SEN/Stobarts to put positive comments on here? If so then they're way off the mark as I'm totally freelance and although, through work for other airlines/airports, this brings me into contact with their management quite often I have never been paid by them for anything. I've done them the odd favour when I've been at a convention but nothing I need to declare to the taxman.

I freely admit that I'm a SEN 'nut' and have been ever since I was about eight years old and saw that TWA Connie land with an engine on fire in the 1950s. All I try to do is pass on information which might be of interest whch relates to the rebirth of SEN. If I see that infomation being distorted or wrongly interpretted to suit someone's agenda (that person normally having no knowledge whatever of the facts; for example as was so clearly the case several times with the recent OLT saga) I try to put the record straight. If by doing so I'm seen as trying to stifle those with alternative views, then perhaps the fault lies in the way I'm doing it as that isn't my intention. Anyone is obviously free to post whatever they like, but surely they must be prepared for what they say to be challenged if it's simply plain wrong from factual point of view.

When someone says, for example, that if OLT operated its German flights into STN rather than SEN if would increase its chances of operating profitably "three fold", such a statement needs justfication surely rather than just being baldly stated and accepted.

On the matter of aircraft ground time at SEN at present why is this an apparent surprise to so many people? For reasons of their choosing EZY have decided to leave three aircraft SEN-based when it was always obvious that they would not all be fully utilised. Perhaps for them it is more economical to do so and giving half a standby aircraft conveniently located in the London area. There was in fact talk a month or so ago of them parking a spare aircraft at SEN in any case. Perhaps Pain in the R's might like to consider that take on the situation.

I look forward to the discussion here on the Press Release which is due out on Wednesday - if it appears as plannned. Probably not too much for SEN in the shortrun, but lots of potential perhaps.

[tayair6]

ANY IDEAL ?

[LTNman]

I freely admit that I'm a SEN 'nut'

You see we do agree on somethings.

I look forward to the discussion here on the Press Release which is due out on Wednesday

ANY IDEAL ?

Might have someone to do with the compulsory purchase of a field by the airport:ok: On the other hand it might not as it is still early days.

So why do they need the field? If no one comes up with the answer I will tell you all tonight:oh:

[asdf1234]

Guess no. 1

Concreting over a field to the west of the airport to provide a lorry depot allowing Stobarts to effect "inter-modal" transfer of shipborne goods from the new Thames DWP port to overnight cargo flights?

Guess no. 2

Building a coach and bus interchange next to the railway station on the bit of greenbelt the residents really want to keep as greenbelt but Stobarts have kept access to despite planning rulings to the contrary?

Guess no. 3

Building a car park on a field to the west of the airport to cater for the increase in demand for car parking despite a railway station with direct links to London being within walking distance of the terminal building?

Am I close?

[Expressflight]

It's an airline announcement with positive implications for SEN.

[fatmed]

The Field to the West of the Airport is about 75 mtrs (in a straight line) from runway threshold so I doubt they are looking to build anything on that. Prior to runway extension this field was earmarked by the LA as a possible park & ride site but has been cancelled because of the new runway length.

[asdf1234]

It's an airline announcement with positive implications for SEN.

Great news then! So what does that have to do with buying a field?

[maliyahsdad2]

The field on the approach to 24 is to the rear of a property the airfield already owns (the east of the airport = Tinkers Lane). The field contains the approach lights.
It is easier to maintain/ upgrade /work on the lights if they are on airport property rather than having to gain permission from the owner.
Simples.

Southend already have more car park areas earmarked due to growing demand.

Some people here are just being silly.


1134 sqm of paddock land to the north side of Tinkers Lane, Rochford, Essex
The right in connection with the operation of London Southend Airport to install by such construction method as may be necessary new approach lights and related structures and apparatus in, on, under and across the above-referenced land and to operate such lights and/or structures and/or apparatus including the right to survey, inspect, repair, maintain, alter, replace and/or remove such lights and/or structures and/or apparatus and any other associated equipment and the right to enter for all such purposes as may be necessary with materials, workmen, vehicles and/or equipment.
Executed by
London Southend Airport
Director
Alastair Welch - Managing Director London Southend Airport Company Limited London Southend Airport Southend-on-Sea ESSEX SS2 6YF
Date: 5 NOVEMBER 2012

[tws123]

Do we know how many destinations they plan to operate at first?

[LTNman]

It's an airline announcement with positive implications for SEN.

If true I wonder how much this is costing Stobart.

[Aero Mad]

If true I wonder how much this is costing Stobart.

What empirical evidence do you have to suggest that such an announcement will cost Stobart Group anything at all? Do you have insider knowledge?

If not, cut the cynical quips and wait for the good news.

[SENChris]

I think LTNMan is alluding to rumours that SEN is charging Easyjet very low landing fees at the moment, which some say is the main reason why U2 is championing the base

[Expressflight]

Nobody can be in any doubt that SEN will have offered EZY a very attractive package in order to establish a base there. Which airport wouldn't in those circumstances?

As far as other new operators are concerned I doubt that they feel very inclined to offer anything above being 'competitive' and, indeed, I cannot see why they would act any differently. I know for a fact this to be the case in one instance so it probably applies in general. All airports know that in the current economic climate they have to be willing to be flexible with the aim of helping to get a route established, which is to both parties' long term advantage of course.

[tophat27dt]

Deals are struck after they are considered fair by both interested parties.
LTNman.....please give it a rest......and go away from this forum.

[vulcanised]

LTNman.....please give it a rest......and go away from this forum


Amen to that !

[22/04]

Don't know what the fuss is about inactive frames at SEN

Three inactive EZY aircraft and one from MON at LTN middle of last week for most of the day.

Standard for November and late Jan early Feb I should think.

[LTNman]

Deals are struck after they are considered fair by both interested parties.

Exactly, can’t see why my comment is regarded as being controversial as all airports do it. Only issue for Stobart is that they are making losses with their airport division so being over generous just increases the loses.

LTNman.....please give it a rest......and go away f rom this forum.

Really can't see why you have an isssue with me as I am pro Southend. I am pro all airports come to that so I don’t intend going anywhere. If you doen't like my posts then don't read them but why you have an issue with anything I say is beyond me.

Just chill out a little and get some fresh air if you are getting a little hot under the collar.

[tophat27dt]

Of course I must read all the posts otherwise I cannot comment fairly.
If you can't see that some/most of your views on SEN are sarcastic or negative, then there's no point me saying anymore.
Of course Stobarts (probably) give a very good "promotion" price on landing fees etc for new airlines to come to SEN. Would you not do the same, even it was at a lost in the beginning. All businesses that I know of don't expect to make a profit for the first two years. Well, that's what my accountant always reassured me!

[LTNman]

I think there are a few sensitive souls here.

If I wasn't interested in Southend doing well I would not post here but don't expect me to post pro-Southend bull sh1t just for the sake of it.

[Ernest Lanc's]

tophat27dt


Of course Stobarts (probably) give a very good "promotion" price on landing
fees etc for new airlines to come to SEN. Would you not do the same,

Short answer is NO!..what's the point in promotional landing fees?..Airlines are going to expect that to continue.

When FR was at BLK, the airport buzzed with the extra pax..When BB introduced the ADF, FR warned them to stop or they would go.

Well the ADF continued and FR left BLK, and I reckon the airport thought 'good riddance'.
No attempt was made to keep FR and BLK, probably because so called concessions (little or no landing fees), was costing the airport good money.

The big problem with promotional landing fees at a revamped airport like SEN, is that after the promotion ends - if pax as not been as expected, the danger is, the airline will go.

[pug]

Well the ADF continued and FR left BLK, and I reckon the airport thought 'good riddance'.
No attempt was made to keep FR and BLK, probably because so called concessions (little or no landing fees), was costing the airport good money.

The big problem with promotional landing fees at a revamped airport like SEN, is that after the promotion ends - if pax as not been as expected, the danger is, the airline will go.

However, Easyjet have agreed a ten year deal with Stobarts to operate from SEN. Therefore it must be assumed that the agreement is mutually beneficial. Not to mention that BLK and SEN are in no way linked operationally.

None argument IMO.

[LTNman]

There will be a break out clause for easyjet if they don't want to stay for 10 years even though Stobart will be locked into it as easyjet will be holding the aces.

[pug]

There will be a break out clause for easyjet if they don't want to stay for 10 years even though Stobart will be locked into it.

There will probably a 'breakout clause'-in a sense-for both. Still irrelevant, they appear to have done well in their first season of operating, have announced expansion for next year all the while operating in what are difficult trading conditions.

easyjet wouldn't go to the cost of setting up a three aircraft base, with all the time and effort that will have entailed, without doing their research first. No matter what subsidy may have been dangled in front of them by Stobart Air.

It may also be worth considering that (I believe) spare aircraft are a scarce commodity at easyjet..

[Ernest Lanc's]

Not to mention that BLK and SEN are in no way linked operationally.
Never said they were...But the analogy is fair enough. FR probably had a contract at BLK. but that did not stop them going.

No matter I doubt BLK made a penny out of FR, and SEN would be better charging the going rate IMO..If airlines are making money at SEN, that won't be a problem..


they appear to have done well in their first season of operating,

So why the need to offer promotional landing fees?. If SEN are delivering the pax, and Stobart has invested in the airport..That's good enough.

[LTNman]

What both easyjet and Stobart have probably signed is a deal where there is an intention to stay for 10 years which is rather meaningless but where fees and costs to easyjet have been agreed up front.

they appear to have done well in their first season of operating

At the moment that is pure speculation as there has been evidence here that not all services had good loads. A tinkering with times, routes and an upgrade of Southend's part time rail service should pay dividends.

[pug]

FR probably had a contract at BLK. but that did not stop them going.


3-4 routes that FR can pull at the drop of a hat is not the same as an investment in a base by easyjet by any stretch. The assumption that airlines pay the published fee's, particularly at the smaller airports, is naive.

At the moment that is pure speculation as there has been evidence here that not all services had good loads.

Except I think its OK to accept that easyjet wouldn't put a fourth aircraft into SEN next year if it was falling below expectations.

Just my 2p worth.

[LTNman]

I think some folk at EMA had the same view as you about easyjet as they had a base there for years. Where is it now?

The future does indeed looks bright for easyjet at Southend but it is best not to get too smug or too sure of yourself.

[Aero Mad]

Absolutely, you've only got to look at Luton :O;):ok:

[LTNman]

Yes very true. I never expected Ryanair to move its London base to Stansted all those years ago.

[pug]

Ive never been to Southend so have no loyalty.

Ill let someone else pull your argument apart if they see fit, as I think with your history on this thread its pretty pointless wasting any more time.

[LTNman]

I hope I did not offend you as you have made reasoned points.

Actually Southend is a fascinating fantastic airport. Been there are few times over the years and love all its nooks and crannies. It's a bit like Stansted was in the late 60's early 70's.

In fact, dare I say it here, it is one of my favourite airports. Much better than any large airport like Heathow or Stansted of today.

I can see why the locals are so passionate about the place.:ok:

[Expressflight]

LTNman

Can I just make two genuine enquiries of you please?

1) Have you visited or used SEN this year?

2) A question that I asked on the LTN thread but to which I never received a reply:
How long on average does it take to get from aircraft door to the M1, assuming one is parked in the Long Stay car park? Let's assume you have only hand baggage.

[serko]

Is there still a press release due out today?

[compton3bravo]

I might be able to enlighten you expressflight regarding question 2. Last time I used Luton was at the end of July flying in from Gib with hand baggage only. Straight through immigration at about 13.45 hrs straight on a bus to the hire car centre which is more or less next to the long term car park and picked up a car and on the road to Dunstable 7 miles away arriving about 14.30 hrs. So getting to the M1 which I passed underneath I would say 30 minutes but I have known it to be much longer (immigration) perhaps I was lucky but it was July and the Olympics were on!

[Barling Magna]

October pax statistics 67,561 which compares quite well with May's total of 66,530.

[tws123]

Well no press release then :( unless it appears late at night like some do?

[tayair6]

who said it will be press release today..........

[tws123]

Expressflight stated it in an earlier post - But to be honest things change all the time so maybe there is a slight delay in the announcement? who knows:confused:

[fatmed]

What is this press release supposed to of been about. Anyone willing to share/guess? Join airlines anything to do with this?

[Expressflight]

I haven't heard anything more so I assume it's delayed for some reason.

[tws123]

Well I strongly believe that it is Join! related since an email I received a few weeks back mention a press release at the end of October which is still to materialise, so on that basis I'm guessing its that announcement only later than expected.

We'll just have to be patient and wait and see, but whoever it is, i'm sure we can all agree it'll be worth the wait! :ok:

[davidjohnson6]

October's provisional stats are out.
Haven't looked at Easyjet routes but assume the load factors are healthy and around 75% given past performance.

The giggle factor comes in for OLT. Counting both outward and return passengers on a nominally 100 seat aircraft, OLT managed 150 pax on the Saarbrucken route and 396 on the Dresden route. Assuming this figure counts only flown passengers and excludes cancellations, this puts the load factor for both routes below 20%

[sxflyer]

I make that 14.2 pax per flight for Dresden and 19.78 for Saarbrucken (it should be 178 for Saarbrucken as that's where the 28 from Stuttgart should have come in from).

I guess the big shock is Saarbrucken flights turned out to be 35% busier than Dresden, a far more established destination. Will they return at Christmas I wonder?!

[LTNman]

Can I just make two genuine enquiries of you please?

1) Have you visited or used SEN this year?

2) A question that I asked on the LTN thread but to which I never received a reply:
How long on average does it take to get from aircraft door to the M1, assuming one is parked in the Long Stay car park? Let's assume you have only hand baggage.

1/ No, not been to Southend for around 2 years or maybe a little longer. The last time I was there I drank tea in the old terminal with some spotters that I came across. They were a really nice bunch of old guys who must be jumping for joy at the new Southend. I thought the old terminal had real character.

2/ I would say at best around 25 to 30 minutes. At worse on a bad day I would say it could be an hour but that is with or without luggage as there is not much difference as the queue is at immigration so the luggage is then waiting.

That time includes maybe 6 or 7 minutes to get from the back of the airport to the M1 on a good day. The M1 is around 2 miles from the airport via a duel carriageway.

Luton can only dream of the times it can take passengers to pass though Southend’s terminal but delays passing through immigration are beyond the airports control. This could become an issue for Southend as passenger numbers increase if the government doesn’t staff boarder control with enough personnel.

I would also say that most long stay passengers don't use Luton's long term car park but use third party suppliers. I see that Southend also has these third party car park companies so passengers will in both cases be bussed away from the airport. This could cost Stobart a lot of money which is money lost for all the hard work that has been put into the airport.

[LTNman]

My turn to ask a few questions:

1/ Does easyjet use taxiway Charlie?

2/ What sort of gap (distance and time) is needed between landing easyjet aircraft when runway 24 is used?

3/ What sort of time gap is needed between 06 departures to allow for the backtrack?

4/ Can easyjet make the C1 turn off when landing on runway 24 or do all aircraft need to backtrack?

5/ When turning around on the runway after landing do easyjet always go to the turning circle at the end of the runway or do they do a 180 on the runway?

5/ Is there room to extend the taxiway so it runs parallel to the runway?

6/ Is Taxiway B used these days?

7/ 2020 is the target for 2 million passengers. Is that also the capacity of the terminal when expanded next year?

Thanks

[smallpilot]

LTN Man...

1.Taxiway 'C' is usuable for a/c up to ATR size currently, due to some 'bad ground.' It is NOTAM'D but dont know why its taken them 6+ months to repair.

2.On 24 arrivals I have seen 2x Easy's arrive within 5mins, occassionally hear first landing to be told to expedife backtrack due to traffic on finals, the guys at ATC seem to have this well sorted.

3.Similarly on 06 deps there is a 5 mins gap I would say, its a bit harder with Taxiway C u/s as departing 319's have to wait at hold B for enter + backtrack.

4. Irrelavent whils C is unavailable to 319's

5. no, and I dont think its necessary, its not that much of a delay.

6. Taxiway B is used for virtually all 06 departures and most 06 arivals are leaving at B, similarly backtracking landing on 24 clear at B

7. Dont know, that info may be on the website tho.

[approach24]

Taxiway Charlie has not been notamed as unavailable for some weeks. It is used by easyJet's 319's when required.
I also have no idea why it took them so long to repair.

[Expressflight]

Thanks to compton3bravo and LTNman for the replies.

So from disembarking LTN to the M25 would be in the region of 40-45 minutes by road at best. That would compare with about 45 minutes at SEN so not much difference then. Obviously it's greatly variable at both places depending on various factors but an interesting baseline time.

Regarding Stobart losing revenue to outside car parking operations, I'm sure it's something they have their eye on. A week's parking at SEN is £45 when booked in advance and the main outside operator advertises £40 per week and for that you have to drive to and find their car park. With all the SEN car parks being within a couple of minutes walk I for one wouldn't bother with saving such a small amount.

By the way, the anticipated airline Press Release has been delayed by a few days for tactical reasons.

[Pain in the R's]

I see the fog has closed Southend again. Is Southend just unlucky at the moment as I did read on this thread that Southend does not have much of a fog problem.

[maliyahsdad2]

No more unlucky than other airports.
BBC News - Heathrow and London City Airport flights hit by fog (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20339209)

Generally Southend does not suffer from thick fog.

[Barnaby the Bear]

A minor point. The Airport isn't closed. :8

[stluke]

The fog has totally lifted in the past 15 minutes so should be back to normal soon, think the airport has just been unlucky of late as hardly ever get fog in Southend from memory.

Meet the MD the other day at a clients AGM were he was doing a presentation, came across really well and the thing that struck me the most was he has a geninue love of airports and planes and not just a suit.

He seemed very confident about the future prospects and the relationship with Easyjet without going into detail.

[LTNman]

So from disembarking LTN to the M25 would be in the region of 40-45 minutes by road at best.

Yes at best but it can take longer.

[Tagron]

I fear there are some unrealistic expectations of SEN's weather record being promoted on this thread. Like any other Southern England airport, SEN can suffer from radiation fogs and on occasion from coastal advection fogs which do not affect airports further inland. It may well be that its overall average is better than other UKairports,(with the clear exception of Prestwick which may justifiably describe itself as fog free) but the fact of life is there will be occasions every year when RVR falls below Cat 1 landing minima and remains so for some time. In this event diversions and delays are to be expected.

I have no doubt that airlines have fully taken into account SEN's actual weather record and the non-availability of Cat 3, assuming their aircraft are Cat 3 capable, before making the decision to use SEN.

[Pain in the R's]

I think Southend has been affected by fog for 3 days in the last 3 weeks which caused the airfield to drop below CAT 1.

[Red Four]

Just as well we held the front page then.

[LTNman]

Story in the local rag

Hundreds of homeowners seeking compensation from Southend Airport (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/10044730.Hundreds_of_homeowners_seeking_compensation_from_So uthend_Airport/)

[Pain in the R's]

No doubt the view here will be that if you don’t like aircraft noise then don’t buy a house near an airport.

The other view will be that Southend is becoming a radically different airport from what it was and that local residents could not have predicted that a runway extension would have been built that would allow for a massive increase in passenger jets.

Another view could be that Stobart’s investment in Southend, which was done for profit, has blighted lives and devalued homes and so Stobart should pay compensation.

[8674planes]

I just can't believe that the local residents close to the airport didn't think when they bought the house that the airport was never going to be expanded or made bigger. I live about 3/4 miles from the end of 06 and I don't find the noise too loud. After all you can only hear them for around 30 seconds!

[Fairdealfrank]

Indeed, exactly the same around LHR, but to such an extent that it is actually impinging on the nation's economy and prosperity.

Sometimes airport expansion has to happen, so generous compensation must be paid.

Having said that, there appears to be a tendency not to pay adequate attention to the circumstances and how they might change, when buying a house near an airport, main road, railway, pub, nightclub, busy town centr, etc.. If one buys in these locations, it is patently obvious that it won't be particularly quiet.

[Ernest Lanc's]

No doubt the view here will be that if you don’t like aircraft noise, then don’t buy a house near an airport.


Than's correct..There was talk of building homes on the old Pontings site next to Blackpool Airport, had that come to pass - It's would have been there own fault if BLK expanded.



Another view could be that Stobart’s investment in Southend, which
was done for profit, has blighted lives and devalued homes and so Stobart should
pay compensation.


Another view is don't buy a house next to or near to an airport, if you don't like noise.

Two questions..

How many take off and landings from SEN per day now in off peak season?, and for that matter on peak season?.

If a jey passed over, how long would you hear significant noise?..One minute, or a few seconds?.

[Pain in the R's]

It would be fair to say that that some house prices will fall due to activities at Southend airport. For a start some homes are now nearer the runway. Also compensation should not be based on flying activities now but on Stobarts own predictions for the future.

We have to remember that Stobart could make a lot of money out of Southend and for that money many residents will have to suffer more noise. It is irrelevant that they chose to live near Southend Airport because the airport is becoming a different beast. Also it was part of the planning permission that compensation would be payable.

[mikkie4]

When the new extention has been completed the terminal will consist of<12 checkin desks,3 selfcheck in desks,6 dep gates,6 passport control desks,3 catering areas, 1 potential catering/bar area,3 retail areas,1 large duty free area,1 convenience store, and seating for 672 passengers in all over the 6 dept zones. More details can be found on the ROCHFORD COUNCIL planing web site.Lets hope we can get more airlines to use SEN in the future,and make all this hard work worth while

[Ernest Lanc's]

It would be fair to say that that some house prices
will fall due to activities at Southend airport. For a start some homes are now
nearer the runway.


I live in a semi near a busy road..They built a bypass linking the A6North with the A6 South, via some minor roads..The traffic has increased 10 fold.

Now I would like to see how far I get trying for compensation..I know I was living on the edge of the green-belt, I also knew the green-belt was ripe for expansion.

Buy a house near or next to an airport and hope for no expansion, and you could get disappointed at any airport.

just how much traffic is there from SEN anyway?, it's not like being under the MAN or LHR flightpath.

[vulcanised]

I would say there are currently no more than around twenty commercial arrivals/departures per day.

This story is a re-hash of an earlier one and when it first came up there appeared to be a small increase in house prices in the relevant area.

[Expressflight]

LTNman

I would be interested to know the date of the item concerning Eastwoodbury Church on the SEN website and whereabouts it is on the site as I could not find it myself.

Briefly, as I understand it, the CAA considers the church an acceptable obstacle due to the fact that runway 06 now has an ILS and the threshold is further south-west than prior to the runway extension, making the church some 200m beyond the threshold. Perhaps the SEN website item refers to this work. It is news to me if the the airport and the CAA are now working on additional measures regarding the church and the date of that item would clarify the situation somewhat.

As far as homeowners receiving compensation for loss of house value resulting from the runway extension/increased activity is concerned, I personally don't have a problem with that at all. As has been pointed out it is their legal right to do so and I'm sure that Stobarts will have made provision for such payments it they are supported by firm evidence of loss of property value.

Those on here who have not followed the fortunes of SEN over the years can be forgiven for assuming that the runway extension came out of the blue only in the past four years or so. This is not the case as the plan to physically relocate the church and extend the runway goes back to 2001 and in the 1980 & 90s SEN played host to Electras and Viscounts etc. operating night mail/cargo flights with 30+ nightly movements at that time. Indeed, the joke at SEN then was that if the runway needed resurfacing it would be done during the day, not at night. So noise greater than is the case now was 'suffered' by its neighbours until quite recently and the prospect of it eventually becoming busier in general through expansion is nothing new.

[LTNman]

Expressflight

Have a look at the bottom of the page

Environmental Responsibility | LSA - Community Relations & News | London Southend Airport (http://www.southendairport.com/news/environmental-responsibilities/)

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes ... I recall BAF with their significant fleet of VC8's, HPR7's and Shorts Sheds being based and actively busy at SEN, then there were the evenings when much of the country, including STN & NWI would be fogged out, SEN would be open for Air UK to divert much of their fleet in to ... Air UK never bothered to divert to LTN that much!

For many a day SEN has been a maintenance facility, Heavylift would put their Belfast's and Airbus's in to there, also a maintenance facility for adhoc geriatric jets such as B707's & B727's, before those days, my ex boss, the much loved and famous Sir Freddie Laker based himself and his Aviation Traders at SEN, such aircraft as the 'Accountant' were built at SEN, later on there was National Airways based there and thereafter Flightline and BWA, SEN has an interesting history to say the least.

And regarding a runway extension, for many a year the talk has been "What are we going to do with that church?".

[Expressflight]

LTNman

Thanks for the link.

I should imagine it refers to the situation that existed between 2003, when the CAA accepted the position of the church with the then runway provided the traffic mix at SEN didn't change significantly, and the time of the runway extension and the associated relocation of the threshold and navaid/lighting upgrades. I don't think there is anything further being considered with regard to the church, although I stand to be corrected if anyone knows otherwise.

[asdf1234]

It is a condition of operating at London Southend Airport that all aircraft operators accept that St. Laurence Church and its graveyard are permanent obstacles within the runway instrument strip, and that they take account of them to the extent necessary to ensure a safe operation.

The Church roof is at 78ft AMSL at 94m from runway centreline, and its spire at 114ft AMSL, 105m from the runway centreline at approximately 200m north-east of runway 06 threshold. The obstacle is lit (by an adjacent pole) with a single red obstruction light.

A frangible security fence is placed around Church graveyard up to 9ft AGL(56ft amsl), and at closest, 49m from Runway centreline.

The risks posed by the Church are subject to an annual review by the Aerodrome License Holder and are a standing Agenda item to the Airport User Group meeting.

Seems to me the danger is acknowledged by the owners of SEN and that operators into/out of SEN have to take account of the danger posed by the church in their operational planning.

With a railway at one end of the runway (protected by a berm), a dual carriageway at the other end and a church listed as an obstacle within the runway instrument strip I'm sure all users of SEN have appropriate briefings for their flight crew to take account of, and mitigate the inherent dangers. Add to this the fact that the runway is officially condsidered "narrow" for operators of Code C aircraft (including the A319's flown by Easyjet) and you definitely have a challenging airport to operate from.

[Pain in the R's]

It is a condition of operating at London Southend Airport that all aircraft operators accept that St. Laurence Church and its graveyard are permanent obstacles within the runway instrument strip, and that they take account of them to the extent necessary to ensure a safe operation.


That is legal speak for if your aircraft hits the church on a missed approach or for whatever reason don't sue the airport because we have just told you it is there despite it infringing various safeguarding requirements.

Maybe the airport should also get the passengers to sign wavers just before boarding aircraft heading into Southend.

[Expressflight]

asdf1234

It's sometimes said that longtime SEN supporters on this forum get too defensive and and dismiss the postings of critics excessively. Perhaps that is true from time to time, but some posts are just so exaggerated as to merit nothing less. Your last is a case in point.

The railway line that you mention is some 320m beyond the end of LDA on 06, with a fully paved RESA between the two. The dual carriageway is 300m beyond the end of LDA on 24 and has a 240m RESA between the two. I would suggest that the facts clearly show that your contention that these two features make SEN "a challenging airport to operate from" are simply nonsense. I had assumed that you were an aviation professional but I'm now beginning to doubt that.

Yes, the church is an obstacle infringing the instrument strip and is rightly promulgated as such. Can you name one operator who has chosen not to use SEN nor designate it as alternate because of this? EasyJet are hardly renowned for their recklessness as far as I'm aware.

Both LCY and SOU have runways defined as 'narrow' and both also have substantial physical features beyond their runway ends at lesser distances than does SEN, so why are you not scaremongering about them? After all, both have substantially more traffic than SEN does currently.

The reality is that some posters are by nature pro-SEN and others are anti-SEN, but both should surely try to restrict themselves to the facts of the matter under discussion.

[Ernest Lanc's]

I would say there are currently no more than around twenty commercial
arrivals/departures per day.

Thank's for that..just reinforces what I thought. Hardly going to send the house prices crashing.

I am not sure what the big deal is anyway..SEN is expanding and (IF) some minor inconvenience is encountered in that process...I am sure Stobart has a war chest for such contingencies.



The reality is that some posters are by nature pro-SEN and others are
anti-SEN, but both should surely try to restrict themselves to the facts of the
matter under discussion.

Why do ante-SEN people bother posting on the SEN thread?, if not to cause arguments with posters? who are proud of the achievements of the airport.

[asdf1234]

Expressflight, I posted facts taken from SEN's own website, which either reflect or are taken from the UK-AIP.

An electrified railway line runs along the eastern boundary of the airport immediately beyond the ILS Localiser array

For larger aircraft types note that taxiways are narrow (15m).


The runway may potentially be considered “narrow” for use by certain larger Code C aircraft (e.g. A319 etc.,) – check with the aircraft flight manual as necessary.


I could have added that another complicatng factor at SEN is the gen avn traffic in the circuit when Easyjet perform overhead arrivals when the SSR is u/s (as has happened recently and NOTAM'd accordingly). However personal observation instead of recounting fact would have attracted invective from the usual quarters so I witheld that comment and purely posted facts.

Aborted take-offs resulting in runway overrun, landing long and fast with subsequent runway overrun and runway execursion on both take-off and landing are not uncommon. Operators at SEN will have looked at the dangers (railway, dual carriageway and church) and planned accordingly or as I posted previously:

I'm sure all users of SEN have appropriate briefings for their flight crew to take account of, and mitigate the inherent dangers

[davidjohnson6]

Pre-Stobart, Southend was tiddly with very few commercial passengers flights, and an expectation by anyone buying a house near Southend that it would remain a very quiet airport.

It's been transformed into an airport capable of (and within a few years likely to deliver) 2 million passengers per year. Ten years ago, the expectation was that Southend would remain a small quiet landing strip with very few commercial services. Furthermore, given the past, it is likely that in 5 years time Southend airport might ask the relevant Govt body to permit more than 2 million passengers per year.

Anyone buying a house near an airport is thinking not just about noise now, but about likely noise in 10 years time. If the *expectation* by a house buyer is that noise will be significantly greater in 10 years time, then better not to buy the house at all and look at a different area. While the number of houses on the market remains static, demand falls - the result is that house prices either fall or do not rise as much as in surrounding areas.

[LTNman]

it is likely that in 5 years time Southend airport might ask the relevant Govt body to permit more than 2 million passengers per year.
Spot on. Does anyone really think that Southend will stop at 2 million passengers? Of course not, it will just keep on growing after applying for permission to expand here and there as issues arise. Then the advantages of a long term car park opposite the terminal will be forgotten as passengers are bussed away to car parks built around the back of the airport.

A Terminal that takes minutes to pass though will be a thing of the past due to shear numbers of passengers passing through it and then Southend will become a mini Luton.

Luton’s “new” terminal was meant to have a capacity of 5 million but it has already handled twice that number. Sobart will cram in every passenger he can to increase profits because that is what companies do.

The reality is that some posters are by nature pro-SEN and others are anti-SEN, but both should surely try to restrict themselves to the facts of the matter under discussion.

I don’t think people here are anti-Southend but anti-over enthusiastic Southend supporters who do themselves no favours, win no friends and who need no encouragement to get themselves so wound up that they can’t contain themselves. They then go for the personal insults as if that is going to bother the victim.

[asdf1234]

I'm well aware of the dimensions of the runway at SEN. To have an extended displaced threshold on rwy24 gives a corresponding safety net to aircraft using rwy06 with an effective RESA approaching 250m past the LDA. However, much as RESA's mitigate the consequences of long landings, I'd rather have a long landing or aborted take-off on a runway that doesn't have an earth berm at the end of it.

The RESA on rwy06 at SEN far exceeds the minimum distance required by ICAO but at the same time the church infringes the ICAO mandated runway strip - so what safety benefits you might derive from a long RESA will be of no use during a runway excursion towards the church.

As for being anti-SEN I've said it before - I'm pro-SEN. I just believe the airport, the local community and the users would have benefited from the owners developing SEN into a multi use airport (mx, training, bizjets and scheduled) rather than concentrating on orange A319's. Maybe they still will but right now I can't see it.

[LTNman]

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/9343/398941045258079.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/398941045258079.jpg/)

I would say that it is lucky that this Britannia Airways aircraft didn't land at Southend that day. Safety zones are there for a reason and this is the reason.

The aircraft came to rest 171 metres right of the runway centreline. The Church is 94m from the runway centreline. Does anyone think that if that aircraft hit the church Southend would be allowed to stay open?

[NorthSouth]

I could have added that another complicatng factor at SEN is the gen avn traffic in the circuit when Easyjet perform overhead arrivals when the SSR is u/sNot familiar with the EZY overhead arrivals but (a) base of controlled airspace is 3500ft so any EZY arrivals are presumably at 3000ft; (b) visual circuit height is 1000ft; (c) all the aircraft concerned are subject to air traffic control - the circuit traffic is within the ATZ and the EZYs will be on a Traffic or Deconfliction Service; (d) you don't need SSR to positively identify traffic and give it a Deconfliction or Traffic Service - "Easyjet 1234 traffic in your 12 o'clock five miles, VFR circuit traffic under my control not above 1000ft".
Southend operated entirely without SSR until fairly recently.
NS

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight: LTNMan can I'm sure speak for himself, but it seems to me you're comparing apples and oranges. SEN does have significant RESAs, and these do indeed exceed the end-of-runway overruns at many airports. But LTNMan's dramatic photo illustrates an aircraft going off the side of the runway, into the Runway Strip. It's this that is infringed by the church at SEN. SEN have done an extremely effective job in persuading the CAA that the infringement should be accepted, and I take my hat off to them and to the CAA for devising a method of accepting the infringement. Operators have to specifically accept the impact of the church infringement on their operations and to plan accordingly. The CAA will no doubt have assessed and approved what the Ops Manuals for EZY and any other UK operators into SEN say about the effects of the church. I'm guessing this will consist largely of more stringent limits on ops on a wet runway in a crosswind.

I'd also note that even a Code 4 runway (SEN is Code 3) has a Runway Strip width of 150m either side of the centreline. So LTNMan's Britannia accident wasn't even catered for at an airport with the Runway Strip entirely uninfringed. It would be regarded as an extremely rare accident and one that is effectively discounted as far as CAP 168 compliance is concerned.

NS

[Expressflight]

Fair comment.

[asdf1234]

Runway excursions remain the the most common type of accident reported and whereas other types of accident rates see year on year improvements, runway excursions have remained at the same rate over the past 30 years or more.

Landing overruns and veer-offs account for three quarters of all runway excursion accidents.

The berm and the church are hazards that will adversely affect an aircraft during a runway excursion, especially an overrun on 06 or a veer-off on either runway.

This said, my initial post was to point out that despite the hazards, any operator flying in to SEN will have taken account of them and amended their SOP's accordingly.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Better get this thread back on track. Idle chit chat is just that and will get deleted. If you have nothing to say about the airport other than past, churches, railways withot consequence just don't post.

The thread going down the tubes. Get some interest back please or I will give the thread a long rest.

Your Choice.

[Pain in the R's]

I thought the last few posts were really interesting but what do I know. It's back to talking just about easyjet I guess but I can't think of anything to say about them that hasn't already been said so I will leave here for a while.

Thank you Moderator for putting us back on track:ok:

[asdf1234]

I too thought the last posts were informative and relevant but I guess safety at a London airport isn't newsworthy. HOWEVER - this article lifted from the Independent is. The owners at SEN are raising cash - maybe to invest in the airport which is definitely GOOD NEWS FOR SEN.


So now along with the advent calendar, cut-out clock and toy lorry you can get an Eddie Stobart bond paying 5.5 per cent! That'll go down well in the haulier's souvenir shop. The launch of said bond, aimed directly at retail investors, is serendipitous: it came on the same day inflation figures provided a nasty shock with the consumer prices index at an unexpectedly high 2.7 per cent.
That means, according to Moneysupermarket, basic rate taxpayers need a savings account paying at least 3.39 per cent to stay ahead of inflation, higher-rate payers need 4.51 per cent. Roll up, roll up, get yer Eddie bonds here!
Of course, the trouble with these bonds is that they aren't savings accounts. Or even savings bonds that lock people in for a certain amount of time with the carrot of a better interest rate.
They are securities carrying significant risk. Caveat emptor – buyer beware– applies. If interest rates go up to the level where 5.5 per cent looks unattractive, unlikely right now but not impossible, that's tough. You can sell the bond, but you'll lose money by doing so.
And if the company goes bust? Bye bye savings.
There are a number of businesses which have tapped the retail bond markets as a means of raising capital, Tesco Bank being a good example. It's backed by a blue-chip business with a jealously guarded reputation.
Eddie Stobart Group is a somewhat different beast. Oh, it makes money, survived the worst of the downturn intact, and has a pretty good market position. But its governance isn't exactly best of breed. Then there's the recent sale of property to the business owned by a company connected to its chief executive, Andrew Tinkler, which has attracted negative comment from Pirc, the governance watchdog.
That's an issue for shareholders, rather than bondholders, who don't get a vote on that sort of thing because they get paid before shareholders if things get nasty. But bond investors can't afford to ignore it. It's certainly worth asking whether institutional investors would be willing to buy into a bond backed by the haulage group at 5.5 per cent right now. I have my doubts.
The retail bond market, set up by the London Stock Exchange, is generally quite a good thing. It should work for the punter, who gets a better rate of return than they might find elsewhere as long as they are willing to sit tight for five or more years and are aware of the risks they are taking. It works for companies, providing a source of capital at what could be a more competitive rate than from institutions.
But what if something goes wrong? What if Mr and Mrs Miggins lose their savings and there's a furore as a result?
I'm not saying that will happen with the Stobart security. It may work perfectly well. But am I alone in feeling slightly uncomfortable about a less than blue-chip company with questionable governance using a brand puffed up by reality tv shows, souvenir shops and gaudily daubed trucks to be touting for people's savings like this?

[LTNman]

The rules as written by the mod which we all need to follow except I thought we were following them to be honest.

I will head west for now as I don't want to see this thread shut down because of anything I might say in error.

Just recently, actually for a few months now, the quality of posts and their content has gone downhill. By that we mean that some threads are being used for chats and questions suited only for the Spotters forum. There has also been a general level of daft and sometimes plainly stupid questions and observations.

We mods often filter out posts which are ridiculous and pointless, but somehow those responsible for them do not seem to grasp the logic of this forum's title and continue making crass posts. Lately, the number of posts being moderated, deleted or removed has risen to silly levels. This has got to stop.

A number of people have been banned in recent weeks for abuse and all manner of rule breaking and this will continue. For the latter go read what the rules are it will make interesting reading for many of you who seem to think that you are above them - you are not.

This forum is for posting interesting events at Airports including the development of and therein. It's also for relating that which is of interest in regard to Airlines at airports - the scope is wide but it should not be overstated. And lastly, it is for posting information of interest in regard to routes but NOT for advertising routes or procedures.

Finally, it is intended that it be ever professional. PPRuNe has a wealth of talent which is freely available from the Flight Deck and Cabin, thru operations and airline infrastructure. It is this that is of interest to the airline fraternity and those with a genuine interest in how it all works.

So, if you fit the above you are welcome. If, however, you fit into the category of a Walter Mitty or someone who thinks they know how to run an airline or airport better than those who can and do, you have our permission to go away to find another site where you fit right in. You will no longer be welcome here.

This moderating we do is for fun and we do have a wealth of experience between us, one is currently a Captain with a UK airline for example, but fun is not fun if we have to deal with idiotic posts or those people who have no idea how to debate a subject or those who can only emphasize their point by SHOUTING or giving abuse, naming people and slagging them off. It is off limits and always will be.

Its up to you now. We will show little tolerance so don't bother to contact us if your post has been removed.

Remember too, that there are far too many spotters question on this forum. You MUST address such questions to that forum. If you don't they will be removed.

It might also surprise you that we are also here to help if we can.

The mods

[NorthSouth]

If you have nothing to say about the airport other than past, churches, railways withot consequence just don't postI've no idea who you are or what your interest in SEN is but if you think a discussion about the everyday, practical, current operational constraints on commercial air transport operations in and out of Southend has no place in a thread about Southend I can't imagine what you think is relevant.
NS

[LTNman]

Final post here for a while but he is the mod so he can say and do what he likes. If anyone doesn't like it then tough! If his comments defies logic then tough! I would recommend to everyone not to question this as he takes no prisoners.

Bye for now, see you over at the Luton thread.

[LGS6753]

The Stobart bond is great for the company (borrowing at 5.5% with no security) but not necessarily for bond holders.

[PPRuNe Pop]

OK, let us get down to nitty gritty. Mods are not paid to mod threads and there are fewer mods to do so anyway. This is not an exercise to wind you up it is to stop silly points that mean little. I have to field the complaints about this thread and many many others.

I am NOT here to nurse you either but I am here to keep threads meaning something. There are too many just using PPRuNe to press home meaningless drivel. If you fit that type then you will have to change your ways or go elsewhere.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

Enjoy the thread by all means but let us stick to intelligent repartee or facts that make interesting reading.

PPP

[NorthSouth]

Thanks very much. That makes it really clear what you mean.
NS

[Expressflight]

I can see the Mod's point of view and any thread which has seen the number of posts that this one has over the past month or so must be heading in the wrong direction in my opinion.

I know that I'm as guilty as anyone of getting dragged into 'lively' debate with some on here and I truly wish I didn't feel the need to do so. I just find it very difficult to let inaccuracies pass as facts and feel the need to correct those inaccuracies. Surely any forum can retain its credibility only if the information posted is true, or corrected if not true.

For the future can we not all agree to post news only, and responses direcly related to that news, and have fewer opinions expressed regarding the background to SEN's current situation? The safety aspects which have taken up so much bandwidth recently could be discussed ad infinitum and they certainly provide fertile ground for those few who simply enjoy being controversial and antagonistic.

I shan't post again until I have some real news to impart; hopefully this being sometime this week. I sincerely hope that there will still be a forum then on which to post, but that is largely in all our hands is it not?

[tws123]

Latest email from Join! Regional Airlines (19/11/12)

We have delayed our press release to end of this month, due to the attention now in the Scandinavian market for SAS. We are still heading for a start up in later February 2013. We will take in aircraft 2 by 2 every 3 month as from January. Start routes will be announced during the press release.

The new website will be launched by than as well.

We will keep you posted and send the press info as soon as available.

Thanks for your patience, with best regards

Bernard Jacobs CCO

[stluke]

Local newspaper the Southend Echo front page has Join news on it, goes on to say they understand they want to base aircraft at Southend for possible flights to Amsterdam, Manchester, Caen, Cologne and Groningen with start up Feb 2013.

All bit wishy washy at present although they do quote Join boss and Southend Airport, I guess it's a case of watch this space still.

[compton3bravo]

I could see Southend-Caen being a real money spinner!

[ericlday]

On what are you basing that assumption C3B ?

[johnnychips]

Think he's being ironic, but it is a strange one. Normandy is a place one usually explores by car; or high-yield day trips to posh places like Le Touquet. Manchester would be interesting, as it can't support flights to LCY and now Gatwick. AMS competes with Easy. Perhaps there's petrochemical potential with Groningen? No idea about Cologne.

[tws123]

On the later route map destinations are shown as Groningen, Manchester, Caen, Cologne-Bonn, Munster-Osnabruck (other base) and Liege. No Amsterdam for obvious reasons but to be honest Join! have been in contact with many different airports so the eventual routes are anyones guess. At least we have a rough start date which is good.

[johnnychips]

Liege is a reasonably nice city (not a tourist trap, but excellent Sunday market by the River Meuse), but very accessible from central London via Eurostar then Thalys/ICE/NMBS. Seeing as routes to the very nearby Maastricht never seem to work, I don't know where this is coming from.

[Expressflight]

I think in needs to be borne in mind that the JOIN website routemap is now completely out of date, for reasons which will become obvious when the Press Release is issued. Their search for investment has been a very long one and has resulted in a natural refocusing of their operational aims over time. The initial equipment which will be announced will also make some routes more suitable than others at start-up.

SEN-CFR is an interesting option and one that at least three airlines have looked at over the past two years. Indeed, it was one of Aer Arann's planned launch routes a year ago when they came extremely close to announcing a SEN-based European network. It was only a Board decision to concentrate on the Aer Lingus Regional branding instead that resulted in those plans being dropped entirely. An external consultant's audit of those planned SEN routes also came out strongly in support of CFR. Aer Arann were certainly seeing a good potential for inbound traffic from CFR with a 420k population within its 30 minute catchment and I would assume JOIN would also anticipate this. When Buzz operated STN-CFR from April to September 2002 they carried 23,000 pax, nearly all of whom were of UK origin. Their take over by Ryanair resulted in the route being dropped. Obviously that's really too long ago to necessarily have any relevance today, but an interesting background figure nonetheless.

As far as the Echo story is concerned, I think they have got a sniff that something is about to happen so have cobbled together a story from the old JOIN website plus possibly what tws123 posted on here etc.. I don't expect their story to match much of what is to be announced in the next couple of weeks.

[Expressflight]

One other small news item is that a well known UK operator's aircraft will arrive SEN tomorrow and be based there for a period of time.

[fatmed]

who is this then? What r they getting upto at SEN.

[fatmed]

Also forgot to mention that the SEN website now has OLT listed as an airline that the airport serves. Only has Dresden listed as a route 7xweekly service in spring summer. No mention of saarbruken yet.

[claron]

Wouldn't have anything to do with Titans 757 that arrived at about 07.30 this morning would it?

[fatmed]

Thomson and First Choice are pleased to confirm that their first route from London Southend Airport will go on sale from Friday 23November 2012in store, and online from Tuesday 27th.

Holiday makers will now be able to travel to Palma, Majorca - already a popular destination for Essex’s sun seekers - throughout the summer from their local airport.

Flights start in May 2013 and run through to October.

The move to introduce the route is part of the UK’s largest tour operator’s strategy to ensure customers across the UK can fly from their local airport and stay at the best hotels in Majorca.

Customers living near to London Southend Airport will now have access to some of Thomson and First Choice’s most highly scoring flagship hotels including;*Thomson Couple’s Hotel Luabay Galatzo, a peaceful adults only hotel offering stylish accommodation; First Choice’s SplashWorld Majorca, a Travelife Gold awarded hotel with unlimited water park access and, opening in summer 2013 a brand new Holiday Village, also from First Choice, offering swim up rooms and six swimming pools.

Paul Cooper, Airport Negotiations Manager for Thomson and First Choice, said of the move “Increasing our capacity and introducing our first route from LondonSouthend Airport demonstrates our continued commitment to providing convenient flights locally for our customers, and we are confident the destination will prove popular.”

He added “Modernising our operations across the UK is a key part of our overall strategy and this move is definitely a step in the right direction towards creating an enhanced holiday experience for our customers.”

London Southend Airport Managing Director Alastair Welch says “Thomson and First Choice operate very successful connections from regional airports across the country and the announcement that their first flight from London Southend is now on sale showcases the growing popularity of the airport as a gateway for leisure travel.”

[Barling Magna]

The Thomson flights will be flown by Volotea Boeing 717s apparently.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Thomson and First Choice are pleased to confirm that their first route from
London Southend Airport will go on sale from Friday 23November 2012in store, and
online from Tuesday 27th.

Holiday makers will now be able to travel to
Palma, Majorca - already a popular destination for Essex’s sun seekers -
throughout the summer from their local airport.



That route is served by Easy, are thay not going to clash?.

Alicante is popular from BLK, and even before the downturn, Thompson took that route in the winter alongside Jet2, did not last very long. A route not served by Easy, would have made more sense IMO.

[tws123]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of competition - and to be honest what doesn't work for Blackpool may work well for Southend. Ideally a different destination would have been nice but only time will tell. Clearly TUI believe there is surplus demand on that route during the summer period. Also there is now the potential for Thomson/First Choice to add further routes over the coming years if this proves successful.

[Barling Magna]

I agree with Ernest. Malta would have been a good option. Does a 717 have the range to get to Corfu from SEN....?

[Expressflight]

I can't really see any conflict with the EZY SEN-PMI programme as it isn't itself very extensive and if you check prices for random dates next summer the route seems to be selling very well. The Thomson flights will probably only be twice weeky I should imagine.

It'll be nice to see the 717 at SEN next year - another addition to the mix.

[JonEMA]

Express, interesting that you can tell how well flights are selling by the prices shown in next summers program.....

Keen to learn how you do this.........

[Ernest Lanc's]

Expressflight

SEN is doing nicely..I myself if I lived in Southend would not be pleased by Stobart inviting Thompson to fly an Easy route.

At BLK, Thompson slung their hook, just glad it was not LS..To be honest SEN has just been reborn, I would rather consolidate with Easy, rather than risk taking routes.

Had the route been Corfu or GIB, would have been good.just my point of view.

[tws123]

But by the same token we don't want to put all our eggs in the same basket! Anyway if the Thomson route does out perform the Easy one then all Easy will do is replace it with either a new route or up the frequency on an existing one in all likelihood - I can only see this as being a positive move for SEN :ok:

[pug]

Thomson and easyjet serve different types of passenger. I dont see the problem?

[Expressflight]

JonEMA

All I do is select 'All London Airports' for a given destination and compare the one-way fares from/to each departure point on various dates. If SEN prices are above those for the other airports I assume it is selling better per flight, if the prices are the same that SEN is selling equally well and, finally, if SEN prices are lower that its flights are not selling as well as elsewhere.

Am I drawing the wrong conclusions from this exercise do you think?

[Ernest Lanc's]

But by the same token we don't want to put all our eggs in the same
basket!

I agree..But there are two airlines flying to the same basket..I know if BB put Thomson in direct competition with Jet2 on the Palma route at Blackpool in summer, I would not be best chuffed..Jet2 saw Thompson of in the winter on the Alicante route, but would hate to see BB push Jet2 to far.
Competition is OK, so long as there is enough pax to go round, or like at BLK we have Manx2.Aer Arann and Jet2, all flying different routes..Easy have been good for SEN, for the time being I reckon Stobart would be better finding airlines interested in other routes that easy do not serve.

Thomson and easyjet serve different types of passenger. I dont see the problem?
To the same destination though, don't forget you can book flights only on the Thompson website.

[tws123]

Whatever happens it will be an interesting battle between the two. All I can say is that by having another operator at SEN such as Thomson, could lead to more destinations and different ones at that.

[Ernest Lanc's]

could lead to more destinations and different ones at that.

Hope so..Maybe the routes bing in the summer will make the difference..It hit a nerve with me with our experience with Thompson at BLK, that was in the winter though.

[8674planes]

I'm looking forward to seeing the Volotea Boeing 717's at Southend. It will be good to compare and see it with the OLT Fokker 100's if they make a return next year!

[pug]

..I know if BB put Thomson in direct competition with Jet2 on the Palma route at Blackpool in summer, I would not be best chuffed

Jet2 are different to easyjet, and closer to Thomson these days.

To the same destination though, don't forget you can book flights only on the Thompson website.

Yes you can, but they wont be after those people. I think you know that...

[tws123]

Just checked the OLT website and tickets for Dresden are on sale for the Christmas period (20th December 2012 to 6 January 2013) and then from March 23rd to March 28th 2013 daily, and Saarbrucken is also on sale from March 23rd to March 30th 2013 operating on Tues, Thurs and Sat.

[mikkie4]

what destinations could a 717 get to from SEN that are not covered by EASYJET?

[Ernest Lanc's]

Yes you can, but they wont be after those people. I think you know
that...

My point was that if Thomson is flying to Palma out of SEN, then customers can look and book a flight only on the Thomson website..That could be at the expense of Easy, if the Thomson prices are cheaper.

Not saying that will happen, but with a resurgent SEN due to Easy, maybe Stobart has miscalculated on this one.

The danger is that there is not enough pax to serve more than one airline on the Palma route.
Then again, if there is - Then Stobarts gamble will have paid of and some, I hope that is the case. The gamble is, if Thomson stands on Easys toes IMO.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Does a 717 have the range to get to Corfu from SEN....?

Yes - A 717 has a range of 2, 370 miles.
Boeing 717 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_717)

While Corfu is just 1,233 miles.
Source - Internet.

[North West]

Jet2 are different to easyjet, and closer to Thomson
these days.


300,000 package holiday customers out of 3.6m passenegrs uplifted would suggest otherwise.

[Cyrano]

Yes - A 717 has a range of 2, 370.5311 miles.
Boeing 717 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_717)

While Corfu is just 1,233 miles.
Source - Internet.

2370.5311 miles, eh? Some pretty severe spurious accuracy there. These guys (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/717/pf/pf_product.html) (who might know nearly as much about the aircraft as Wikipedia does ;)) suggest the basic version has a max range of 1430 nm (i.e. payload restricted). Great circle (not airways) SEN-CFU is 1076 nm (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SEN-CFU&MS=wls&DU=nm). I'm not sure the beancounters would give that the thumbs up: a long sector, probably payload-limited, so unlikely to be particularly lucrative, if it even breaks even.

Payload-range chart is on page 23 here (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/717sec3.pdf), BTW, if you want to get on it. The Volotea aircraft are 114,000 lb MTOW, I believe.

[pug]

North West, fair point, but they are certainly aiming to head that way.

My point still stands however, that easyjet and Thomson will likely be after different types of customer.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Cyrano
Ouch - I have edited my post to get rid on that typo. well sloppy copy and pasting:eek:.
I took the metric range from Wikipedia and converted to miles...Yep point taken on 'payload restricted' - Would reach Corfu though;).

[davidjohnson6]

Apart from routes flown by Easyjet, perhaps Thomson at SEN with a 717 might look at Pisa, Naples, Sardinia, Croatian coast or Menorca ?

[pamann]

perhaps Thomson at SEN with a 717 might look at Pisa, Naples, Sardinia, Croatian coast or Menorca ?

Menorca maybe, but why the other routes which are mostly just served out of the LGW & MAN bases only? Why on earth would Thomson operate to these places ex SEN when they don't even operate from their other regional bases?

And why are we assuming any future routes to be flown by 717? Surely if things bode well here you'd have more chance of seeing such routings as STN-CFU-SEN-CFU-STN with their own metal (if such a route is even possible).

Also worth bearing in mind that Thomson is a tour operator selling 'package holidays' above just flight only. So comparing their route like for like with the EZY service is pretty pointless in my opinion.

[Tagron]

This discussion on the capabilities of the Volotea B 717 serves to highlight the difficulties inherent in making this sort of assessment without access to source material.

The B717 like other modern designs comes in a variety of weight variants. There are two engine thrust level variants available at 18500lbs and 21000 lbs. It is the engine thrust rating above all else that will determine payload/range performance from a limiting runway such as at SEN.

It looks to me that the basic aircraft (18500lb thrust) would not achieve SEN-PMI nonstop with 125 pax and baggage due to runway performance, at least not for scheduleplanning purposes. The 21000lb thrust High Gross Weight (HGW) aircraft would be almost unrestricted at SEN up to the maximum weight of this variant of 121000lbs (54900kgs)so it must be this variant they are proposing to use for SEN-PMI. On the other hand the MTOW quoted by Cyrano (114000/51800kgs) suggests a weight appropriate to the basic version. Of course it could be the Volotea aircraft is really the HGW version with MTOW deliberately restricted to reduce landing and en route charges, a common airline practice.

So, assuming the latter case, SEN-PMI looks a reasonable maximum full payload distance for planning purposes. Any greater range would require a higher certificated MTOW which could add several hundred miles to range radius, and that would then encompass Corfu Malta and further. But we really need more comprehensive data on the specification of the Volotea B717 before speculating on what other routes might be possible.

[Expressflight]

According to the Spanish civil register the Volotea B717s are powered by BR715-C1-30 engines of 21,000lb thrust.

I think we can probably put this "will they be payload limited at SEN" argument to bed as it appears that they won't be, even at ISA +15.

[Phileas Fogg]

The B717 is/was a modern design???

And there was me thinking it was merely a stretched and re-engined DC9!!!

[tophat27dt]

Does anybody have a breakdown of the October passenger figures, as usually supplied to this forum each month. Thank you!

[tophat27dt]

Was the Titan B757 the airliner you was referring to? If so, is it based at SEN for charters, or stored for the winter? Thanks.

[Red Four]

DT - the figures are in here if you want to extract them:
UK Airport Provisional Statistics: 2012 - 10 | Aviation Intelligence | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=11&fld=201210)

[BHX5DME]

dresden 396 saarbrucken 150 stuttgart 28 dublin 4653 galway 0 waterford 2467 amsterdam 11196 faro 9001 alicante 7229 barcelona 6757 ibiza 2200 malaga 6849 palma de mallorca 3466

[tophat27dt]

Thank you guys for the figures and link.
One question.......when pax aircraft divert into SEN, like this morning becuase LCY has delays, are these to be found in the CAA stats?

[Red Four]

Yes they do show up in the pax figures for city pairs, and when the 'confirmed' (not provisional) figures are published, there is also a table that shows the numbers of diversions from one airport to another.

[tophat27dt]

I see that Fords have stopped flying from SEN. Is this a temporary thing?

[Expressflight]

tophat27dt

Yes, the Titan 752 is SEN-based at present and will position out as required. I don't know if they will operate any ad hoc charters from/to SEN itself.

As far as the Ford flights are concerned I think they found it not to be cost effective - and I'm not surprised at that. They have reverted to using Germanwings' STN-CGN service but would use a SEN-CGN scheduled service if anyone starts that route. At least one operator is trying to convince them to use a 50-seater on a sole use charter basis but I don't think that is likely to be taken up.

[Tagron]

If the Titan 752 is to operate any revenue flights from SEN it will need the provision of RFF7. SEN currently publishes only RFF6, but are they in a position to offer RFF7 on request, as is the case with (e.g.) SOU for their occasional 757 charters ?

[EI-BUD]

What is to stop easyJet doing SEN DUB? Ryanair cannot join them due to restrictions on 738. Yes FR would increase STN I expect, but SEN on its own merits could warrant a 3 daily easyJet 319, EIR is carrying reasonable numbers, easyJet would be fit on its own to more than tripple that...??

Obvious that easyJet have avoided services destinations in Southern Ireland after the NOC SNN & ORK to LGW fiasco. But this may be an opportunity..

EI-BUD

[Pain in the R's]

Thought the runway was too narrow to operate passenger flights with a 757.

This thread seems to be full of fantasy posts lately with people waffling on about where they think services could operate rather than talking about facts. :zzz::zzz:

[tophat27dt]

Why would EZY want to operate to DUB when Aer Lingus already fly three times a day?

[girt big un]

Ford never stopped using German Wings for their CGN passengers even with charters from SEN. The only people using the SEN CGN sector were Board members. The flights to Turkey and Romania supported the introduction of new models and stopped when the work of the supporting engineers was completed. I wish Express Flight would stop postulating as a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[EI-BUD]

Why would EZY want to operate to DUB when Aer Lingus already fly three times
a day?


tophat, because Dublin- London market is one of the biggest in Europe, and at just over 4600 pax per month on 3 daily flights, I feel that the opportunity is much greater than Aer Lingus regional are seeing. I think easyJet could grow the route significantly. Using Belfast as a comparative route where Easyjet currently carry double that of EIR on SEN DUB, and at lower frequency.

Does anybody know what level of pax on SEN DUB are transitting to USA flights ex Dublin?


EI-BUD

[Pain in the R's]

So easyjet put on a service to Dublin and Aer Lingus stops flying to Southend so the airport goes back to being a one airline airport. That's a good idea.

[EI-BUD]

Pain in the R's;
I am simply saying that the Dublin route is simply not doing the business. There are opportunities for passenger number growth ex SEN on this route.

An understanding of the number of pax transitting for USA flights will say a lot, i.e. the average SEN DUB loads are about 27 per ATR42. thats about 64%. My feeling is that Aer Lingus Regional are simply not communicaiting to the relevant audience would might use the route, and a small plane such as ATR42, is slow over the distance and is no comparison to an airbus, but also in terms of the economies a 319 could bring over the distance it would be reflected in the fares.

If Easyjet can hit 10k per month on SEN BFS, my guess is that DUB could achieve 15k given the relative popularity of Dublin London routes compared to those ex Belfast area.

Simply my opinion, isn't OLT Express flying from SEN? Also if Aer Lingus Regional are doing a amount of feed to USA destinations via DUB surely there is room for both airlines...

EI-BUD

[davidjohnson6]

Let us suppose just for a moment that Easyjet launches a SEN-DUB route. Would this be the sole route out of Dublin for Easyjet or would they launch routes to Dublin from other bases or W routes ? If other Dublin routes are launched - where would they be ? If Southend is the sole Dublin route, would the lack of join-the-dots still allow the route to be sufficiently profitable for Easyjet ?

[Pain in the R's]

We need to remember that London's other airports all have catchment area's that surround the other airports while Southend is in 2 directions only.

[EI-BUD]

davidjohnson;

I dont see why easyJet could not launch up to 3 or 4 routes ex Dublin.
Geneva, for one, not just seasonally, FR have avoided GVA,
Paris CDG, FR wont go their, have clearly said
Milan MXP, FR cant do a deal on landing charges , this route could work.
Amsterdam, one of Aer Lingus's most profitable route, surely a honeypot and a huge opportunity for easyJet. Outside of those and SEN I wouldnt see many more until they would be well established ex Dublin....

EI-BUD

[vulcanised]

My friends make around 4 trips pa to USA and were delighted when they saw the new route via SEN announced.

That is until they discovered the price was almost double what they normally pay.......

[Ernest Lanc's]

And waiting for a connection, at Dublin..We had/Have that at BLK. not so sure it went down well, although Dublin is popular.

[Pain in the R's]

This thread seems to be full of fantasy posts lately with people waffling on about where they think services could operate rather than talking about facts. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sleep.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sleep.gif


I dont see why easyJet could not launch up to 3 or 4 routes ex Dublin.
Geneva, for one, not just seasonally, FR have avoided GVA,
Paris CDG, FR wont go their, have clearly said
Milan MXP, FR cant do a deal on landing charges , this route could work.
Amsterdam, one of Aer Lingus's most profitable route, surely a honeypot and a huge opportunity for easyJet. Outside of those and SEN I wouldnt see many more until they would be well established ex Dublin....


More waffle in under 3 hour:zzz:

[tws123]

Hopefully we can expect an announcement from Join! sometime this week. Oh and Join! Regional Airlines is a start-up (just to make sure I include a fact in there...)

[Expressflight]

girt big n

Thank you for putting me right concerning Fords having continued to use the STN-CGN route in addition to the Germania charters from SEN and for the information concerning the purpose of the Romanian and Turkish flights.

My information concerning the attempt to attract Ford to a SEN-CGN charter operation again is correct though and I thought some here might see it as being of interest. I promise to act less "dangerously" in future to avoid annoying you.

tws123

The JOIN Press Release is promised for "the end of the month" and will contain a few unexpected elements, but don't expect too much of immediate benefit to SEN - and I'm not living dangerously in saying that.

[girt big un]

Expressflight you do not annoy me I just wish that some on this forum and others would trade a little more in hard facts.

If there was a credible safe and financially secure carrier based at SEN with early morning flights to CGN and evening retune to SEN ten I am sure that Ford would be tempted I the right people were spoken with at Ford.

However first find that credible, safe and financially secure airline that can offer the right schedule and importantly a competitive seat cost compared with German Wings and there is a chance that the Blue Oval would return to Southend.

[tws123]

Expressflight

Any new route(s) that Join! can bring (even if its several years off) will be an added bonus for SEN, i'm just pleased that after such a long time and in tough economic conditions the Join! pan-european network might actually start. :D Whatever the news brings i'll be happy.

[Expressflight]

girt big un

I agree with you that it would be nice to be able to post only "hard facts", although a rumour that anyone hears from a credible source is surely worth posting, but sometimes the more you know the less you can say in public.

That's certainly the case wth "JOIN" and I'd love to spill the beans but 'confidentiality' still means something to all of us I hope. So hints and generalities must suffice until the PR comes out.

You seems well informed on the Ford situation so can you give an idea of the daily numbers they could provide on SEN-CGN? The other conditions that you suggest would certainly be required to attract them to such a service I'm sure.

[photoman27]

DT
I understand that the Titan B757 is based/parked on standby here until the end of March.

[ericlday]

Is it cheaper parking at Southend than Stansted ?

[Expressflight]

Apparently so.

One would think the word 'considerably' might apply if it's worthwhile having the aircraft positioned away from base like this, although I suppose it depends on how much flying they anticipate it doing.

[Pain in the R's]

Expressflight wrote

I'd love to spill the beans but 'confidentiality' still means something to all of us I hope.

If someone has told you something in confidence would they thank you for telling this forum that you know something and then droping hints?

I personally suspect that you know less than you make out and use confidentiality as the excuse.

[Aero Mad]

Pain in the R's, perhaps you'd care to spoil the predictability of your posts with a truly enlightened piece of writing one of these days? There's a great difference between revealing facts and displaying inclinations towards certain possibilities. I would urge you to stop being quite so rude and, frankly, to cheer up! :p

Some people take this business far too seriously.

[tws123]

I enjoy reading Expressflight's comments - in some cases hints are given, and as a result some people maybe able to work out what he is getting at without simply telling everyone. In other cases its just interesting items in which I look forward to hearing about properly when it actually happens/or is announced etc. Keep the excellent comments coming Expressflight! :ok:

[girt big un]

Expressflight

You may note from my last posting that I mentioned "credible, safe and financially secure" as an absolute minimum criteria to attract serious "blue chip" companies to an airline. Do you think that a blue chip company would consider a non airline operator ticket provider like Join as being credible, safe and financially secure?

[Expressflight]

Everyone, I'm getting a bit tired of my knowledge, credibility and integrity being questioned in recent days by some people on this forum.

girt big un

"JOIN" will not be a "ticket agency" but will have a full AOC from day one. With respect I think your speculation is a bit rich from someone who was going on about wanting only "hard facts" posted and here you are making assumptions.

Pain in the Rs

On just what basis are you suggesting that I know less than I make out? Do you know me? Do you know my relationship with JOIN? Do you know which contacts I have within various airlines and airports?

As far as the CEO of "JOIN" not thanking me for dropping hints and saying "that I know something" (whatever that is supposed to mean), I can assure you that he is quite happy as long as I don't reveal anything that will appear in the Press Release. Does it surprise you that he is actually pleased to see some industry interest stimulated in anticipation of the Press Release?

I've arrived at the point where I no longer enjoy contributing to this forum due to the unreasonable attitude of just a few posters. It used to be fun but is no longer,and I doubt I'm the only one to feel that way. Perhaps the Mods should close it down for a few weeks.

Anyway, I'm fed up with the insults so you won't get any further information out of me for a little while. I'll come back on when the JOIN PR is issued as I'm sure a few comments will be generated which I might usefully add to - at least some of you might think them useful.

[CelticRambler]

To the best of my knowledge, I have never met Expressflight in any context other than as a passive reader of his posts on this forum, so either I'm suffering from a similar delusion having been exposed to a common source material or maybe, just maybe, he knows what he is (and isn't) talking about.

@ girt big un, re blue-chip investment: that would probably depend on whether the investors base their decision on real world data or poorly-informed, discussion-group speculation.

[Barling Magna]

Expressflight: it's understandable that you should feel hurt when some people question your integrity, especially those who seem to enjoy making negative comments on every site (not just this SEN one). I base my opinion of you on your record on this forum and others - you're almost always right. So, if it walks like a duck etc..... to me you seem to know what you are talking about and seem to have the right connections. So good luck to you and I hope you return to this forum soon. :)

[Cyrano]

Expressflight: it's understandable that you should feel hurt when some people question your integrity, especially those who seem to enjoy making negative comments on every site (not just this SEN one). I base my opinion of you on your record on this forum and others - you're almost always right. So, if it walks like a duck etc..... to me you seem to know what you are talking about and seem to have the right connections. So good luck to you and I hope you return to this forum soon. :)

I second that. I come to this forum to find out more about developments at particular airports and, who knows, maybe even to be able to discuss aspects of the business in which I work. IMHO, Expressflight is one of the posters who best exemplifies the expertise *and* civility that I remember being a lot more common in the PPRuNe of a few years ago. If the atmosphere on PPRuNe is such that knowledgeable contributors (who are actually involved in the industry) no longer feel comfortable posting here, it's to the detriment of all.

[Phileas Fogg]

Oh Gawd ... I feel the moderator is, again, not so far away ...

Allow me to put it quite bluntly ... How many of you give a flying phuck whether SEN succeeds or fails and if you, truly, couldn't care less then kindly refrain from posting argumentative cr@p because it's boring to read!

Back to my San Miguel :)

[Ernest Lanc's]

Back to my San Miguel

Sounds like you never left it;)

[tws123]

I see Stobart are planning to take over Aer Arann along with another investor. Stobart will increase their share up to 45%. Interesting move - any thoughts on this? I can certainly see this speeding up the Carlisle - SEN plans for next year.
Here's the link - Authority to look at Aer Arann takeover - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 27, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1127/1224327142333.html)

[davidjohnson6]

Could someone explain the merit in Stobart having majority control of a small Irish airline ? Muddying the water between airline and airport makes for burning lots of management time, and also discourages other airlines that would be interested in operating Irish and some puddle jumper routes from doing so at Southend

[mikkie4]

Wel done to PAIN IN THE RS/GIRT BIG UN,you have succeded in losing one of the few people with any knowledge on this web site,a lot of people look forward to reading his coments...(expressflight lookin forward to your return)

[girt big un]

Mikkie: I simply asked Expressflight whether Join could be classed as as credible safe and financially secure operator. It may have been taken as a statement by Expressflight but I assure you that it was not.

Expressflight: I was simply repeating or para phrasing what was in the Sothend Echo re "Join acts as an unbrella organisation for a umber of Regional Airlines". If you know this to be different then so be it. Dont throw your teddy bears out so easily as I know your are as much of a SEN supporter as I am.

To the poster with a San Miguel in hand, boy haveI invested some money, time and effort into SEN over the past twenty eight years and I can passionatly about the airport.

[s2art1e]

Apologies if someone has asked this question already, but is OLT Express planning on operating the German routes as a permanent scheduled service from the Summer 2013 schedule? Or are the planning to carry on this seasonal 'service', if at all?

[davidjohnson6]

s2art1e - Funny you should ask this, I was wondering the same thing as well. I've set up a thread for OLT Express so as to avoid clogging up the Southend thread with OLT specific posts

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/501416-olt-express-germany.html

[s2art1e]

Cheers davidjohnson6 - will take a look

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

I join with those who look forward to the submissions from Expressflight and consider him to be a very valued contributor to this forum. I believe that he is one of those who, like me, have always been able to see the potential of Southend Airport, but have felt incredible frustration at the apathy and, indeed antipathy, that emanated from Southend Council towards their own airport for literally decades. It is my belief that had it not been for the arrival of Stobart on the scene at a crucial time, then the story of our much loved airport could be a very different tale to what it is today. I believe that those of us who have supported it over all the difficult years can be forgiven for being excited at what has been only a dream until now. It is very difficult to understand why a few who contribute to this group often seem antagonistic and take a negative view of events and have started to make unnecessary comments towards others. It may be that on occasions it is not the intention to offend and that there has not been malice of forethought, but at other times there appears to be a very'un-English' attitude in the comments made. Most of us would not know each other if we passed in the street but, surely what we all have, or should have in common, is the wish to see civil aviation in this country flourish whether it be for commercial, or private and pleasure purposes and a forum such as this is just the place to enjoy and promote it. In conclusion, let’s stop what seems to be a sort of absurd infighting and bury any animosity that may exist.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Good post Lord Gumboil Jnr.

Expressflight to me is genuine...He does post parts of info he has been given in confidence, and as such can't source his info.

That makes his decision to impart that info even more courageous, as he leaves himself open to attacks from people who don't have a clue if he is wrong on not.

I like him and I believe what he posts is sincere, and this is my last post on this subject.

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

Ernest Lanc’sthank you for your kind response and I agree with your summing up. All the Best.

[davidjohnson6]

I don't wish to be a party pooper but this expression of affection for one particular member or another is getting a bit cringeworthy. If you want to have a group hug or sing kumbaya could you do it elsewhere please ?

[Ernest Lanc's]

If you want to have a group hug or sing kumbaya could you do it elsewhere
please ?

What's your problem - can't you read?.
and this is my last post on this subject.
One post hardly contributes to a "group hug".

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

davidjohnson6 –your posting is precisely the so unnecessary and childish piffle that has been appearing on this forum for far too long. I am inclined to ask why on earth you found it necessary to respond thus, but I am not going to as I have no inclination to sour matters further. Everything nowadays seems to be going downhill, it is very sad that this forum is following the national trend. I rest my case!

[asdf1234]

Lord Gumboil and Ernest Lanc's

Really, too much piffle going on here. If you consider davidjohnson6's comment inappropriate (I didn't - I though it was spot on), then why follow up with your own highly inappropriate comments? It is a forum to discuss what is going on at SEN.

Some will want to champion SEN, some will be hoping SEN works but can see the holes and some will be hoping SEN doesn't work. All comments are valid.

I remember making supportive comments of another poster regarding the lack of facilities for the biz jet market at SEN on another forum on PPRUNE. I got told I was talking b*ll*cks by some of the pro-SEN posters here. Truth is the "£1m brand new FBO" (Johnny Rayners comments in AIN - not mine) is locked and the lights are out right now. Landmark went back to their profitable airports and left SEN and their lack of expertise in attracting all types of aviation business to get on with it. Net result? What I and others posted about 6 months ago is now proven. Yet at the time I was branded anti-SEN, told to go and post elsewhere, etc, etc...

We should be able to post our views based upon our experience and knowledge and most importantly, we should be posting the untold stories -the rumours and the hearsay - it is after all a Rumour Network. Telling each other off for being on the opposite side of the fence is pointless.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Some will want to champion SEN, some will be hoping SEN works but can see the
holes and some will be hoping SEN doesn't work. All comments are valid.

This is the Southend (SEN) thread..I by the way am only a visitor, as my username will verify.
It is not valid for people to come on here who hope that "SEN wont work" and post in such a way. - There is a name for such posters, and that is WUMS.
Anymore posts aimed at me will be ignored, and answering just makes matters worse - For the sake of the thread, lets draw a line here.

[insuindi]

...it may become much more unlikely for OLT to fly SEN-DRS again in 2013, as DRS and Cityjet are said to be announcing 6/7 DRS-LCY next week.

[PPRuNe Pop]

We have been pondering what is to be done about this thread since no-one seems capable of maintaining a semblance of resonable discussion while others at least try. It would seem that whatever is said someone comes along and shoots it down simply becuae they want to. That is frankly not good enough or is it the way of PPRuNe.

This is what is going to happen so that I at least don't have to field complaints of disorder that includes back biting, snide, abuse and simple rubbish.

The thread gets closed permanently until we think that it might be possible to hold genuine discussion and simple debate. At the moment it is clear that its highly improbable.

Don't attempt to start a new thread because it will get short shrift and so will the starter.

Think about it please.

AA&R Mods.

[PPRuNe Pop]

OK! This is where we are at. I am going to let another thread be started under SOUTHEND - 4. But there has to be a stop applied to abuse, snide and other forms of ridiculous comments and information that is not borne out by fact. Trolls, the worst kind of attention seekers, are NOT welcome anywhere of PPRuNe and we will deal with them the way we treat others who play their silly games here.

Please understand that we are anxious that you enjoy PPRuNe, its been around now for over 16 years and is here to be enjoyed. Banter is allowed but bitterness and attempts to run wild will not be tolerated.

Its simple to behave and root for SEN at the same time. A great deal has been put into it by Stobarts and I suspect they will do all they can to maximise their stay st SEN. You can particularly enjoy that - you'll not see too often in the coming years.

Have fun.

AA&R Mods.